Ben< One minute to post time. *smile*

Esop< hahaha, Ben, just heard the bugle play.

LAGONE< Ben: You sound like you are off to the races. *S*

Ben< ALL: The topic for this seminar is Past Life Regression. As usual, I'll post a brief overview of the topic and then proceed with a series of questions.

Ben< To regress means to go back. In this case, regression is a type of experience that many people have had, in which they seem to be re-living something that happened to them earlier in this life or in a past life. The onset of a regression experience can be spontaneous or intentionally sought by various techniques.

Ben< If someone says, for example, "In one of your past lives, you were a shaman," that isn't a past life regression no matter where or how the person obtained the reading. Such statements are testimony, not experience.

Ben< There are several different interpretations of regression experience. Some say we go back in time. Some say we go back in our own subconscious memories. Some say regression experiences are created in and by the subconscious mind.

Ben< ALL: Suppose you have a vivid, recurring dream, in which you are a very small person riding in the front seat of a very large automobile. You hear a squealing sound, feel yourself thrown forward, and suddenly wake up. That's all. But it happens the same way every time. How would you go about deciding whether this dream is a regression experience? YOUR TURN

FRAML< Ben: I don't do dreams.

greyman< When Life does not find a singer to sing her heart, she produces a philosopher to speak her mind. --Kahlil Gibran

Doucia< I would try to ask my parents if something like this happened when I was younger. I would give as many details as possible. If the answer is negative, I would look for answers during meditation.

Ben< Doucia: Yes. Ask your parents. Then try meditation. I'll sketch a way of doing that in a few minutes.

tigerlily< I think you would have to work with the dream fragment in some way ... use it as a starting place for exploration.

skier< In my experience, dreams of past lives are much more vivid than ordinary dreams and do not have the surreal, symbolic quality.

Joan< Ask mom?

LAGONE< I would ask my relatives, too. Some say that regression is just part of our DNA.

mevelyn< My past life memories are usually not in dreams.

TimG< I would try to remember and look for more detail in the dream.

Esop< I suppose it would be simple, if I had a fear of riding in automobiles, to know that it was a regression. If there was no fear associated with my current life, I would then think it was a symbolic message dream.

[Ben< Esop: I have not said that you experienced any fear in this dream.]

SLIDER< I would try to tell myself to remember, if this dream reoccurs, to stay in the dream state until the action runs itself out, in order to experience the outcome of the dream. I have done this and it has worked.

Yopo< I suppose the first thing to ask is if the experience has any connection to something from your current life? An episode from childhood maybe, or something you heard about at an impressionable age but forgot. If not, you've still gotta wonder what it might be. Might be some sort of precognitive thing. Not sure how you could tell.

Joan< Also, since it's a dream, I would play with how it relates to now. Like, do I feel like a small person in the back seat getting bounced around at work?

Ben< Good responses. Others?

Koklee< Ben: I have never been able to feel my size, as a person, in a dream. I always just feel like me. If a dream like this occurred, I would be confused.

Ben< Koklee: I also am always me; however, things around me may seem normal size, or very large, etc., and that gives me a clue as to my physical size at that moment.

SLIDER< Ben: I can hardly say that it is not me in most occurring dreams, because I am looking from my point of view and not as a third party watching me do something.

SWIFT< I have had an interesting one. In it I found myself siting down. I felt something touching my back. I was startled. When I turned around I saw an ape-like creature was the cause. I also saw others siting around in the vicinity; their color was a sandy beige. I knew they were no threat to me. I could've been ferocious if I had wanted to be. The landscape was savanna. I had a feeling that this was eons in the past. I felt like I was millions of years old at the same moment. I had another dream in which there was a gnome-like faery being in my bedroom.

STAR_MOON< I don't have any memories that I know of. However, I tend to lean more towards parallel existences. Don't know why that just feels right to me.

SWIFT< A few weeks later I (whilst in a lucid state of mind) decided/thought I wanted to know more about the experience. I was immediately in the top of a tree looking out onto the savanna landscape. The strange thing is, I take an active part; I experience it myself; I am not watching it from a distance; it's me who it happens to. I do question whether it's my imagination playing tricks, but it's not an experience I expect; it just happens in a flash, in at the deep end kinda thing.

FRAML< I rarely remember my dreams. Don't usually try to.

Thunder_Wolf< I have different memories of the same place, but nothing I can really work with. Each of them only last for a few seconds.

Ben< ALL: When you are asleep, the dream just runs like a videotape and stops. But when you try to remember the dream while you are not asleep, you find you can make it run slower, or stop ("freeze-frame"), or even re-wind and re-play from there. Does this discovery help? What would you do with it? YOUR TURN

greyman< Ben: Good CPU. Description is that of an experience recollection.

Esop< I do that with my meditations -- replay, freeze-frame. I've only done that with one dream, but it wasn't a regression dream. And it was one I *wanted* to play over and over, hehehe.

Doucia< I would try to pinpoint a time ... make of car, clothes, etc..

TimG< Look out the window. What year do the cars look like they're from? How are people dressed? Look at the nameplate on the dashboard, has your family ever owned that type of car? Look at the driver.

Yopo< Maybe look carefully at my surroundings. What does the dashboard look like? Like a modern car? Or an old one? (A good experiment, if you're old enough to remember when a car radio took a minute for the tubes to warm up. *LOL*)

skier< Can you look at yourself and see that it is your body, or do you look different? Are you seeing long blond hair when your hair is dark and short, for instance?

Ben< Hah! Many of you have done this sort of thing before.

Doucia< *S* Yes ... Ben!

skyeagle< Are dreams and astral travels (OBEs) connected ??

[Ben< skyeagle: They can be, but are not always.]

SLIDER< When I try to analyze the dream in a waking state, I loose a lot of it. When I tell myself to go back to that place in another dream, I can usually continue with it and find some meaning to it, although the power of suggestion might come into play for the final outcome. ???

[Ben< SLIDER: Yes, analysis while fully awake uses a different part of the mind, and so pops one out of the dream. The best remembering of a dream is done in the half-state between waking and sleeping. And yes, suggestion can create dreams.]

LAGONE< I would probably pass it off as just another dream. If it really occurred often, I would think that my subconscious was trying to tell me something about what is happening in my life now.

mevelyn< I always begin with an intention of using the memory to further my work at this moment.

Ben< ALL: While remembering the dream, you stop the dream ("freeze-frame") at a point before you hear the squealing sound. You look all around. You know the very large person driving the car is your father. You know his name. You also know the name of the car. You father has said it's a Franklin. You come back to present awareness and write this down. What does it suggest? YOUR TURN

Doucia< Well, since I don't know what year the Franklin car was made, I would certainly research this period. *S* Then once I discovered the year, I would meditate on that period of time ... for instance, the music, clothes. I try to go back.

LAGONE< I would probably believe that the dream was telling me that someone is trying to control my life. To steer me in a certain direction.

TimG< If the father in the dream is your current father (you didn't specify), then it is probably just a memory.

Yopo< Ben: Uh, you mean the guy is my current life father?

Ben< TimG, Yopo: No, I didn't say the man is your current father. Only that in the dream you know the man is your father.

skier< Yopo: Look at him and see if he is your current father.

greyman< Ben: An event like that could have happened in the first half of the 20th century.

Esop< I'd probably try to get his last name and the license plate number and then find that family on the Internet, and go to see them, and see if they remember me.

SLIDER< Remembering the car and person, etc., would suggest a personal connection to the event or to someone that has had that same experience.

Yopo< Ah, OK ... Hmm ... Details like that -- assuming they had no connection to memories of my present lifetime -- would make me more open to the possibility of another lifetime. Not sure when Franklins disappeared. If before my birth (1950), I'd take that as more evidence for another lifetime.

greyman< Test premise: (1) If father is current relative, then either an experience or subconscious fragment. (2) If not current relative, gather relevant information and test supporting hypothesis of past life relative.

Esop< Right. I would be looking up my ancestors.

order< I failed my test on Ben Franklin as a child and was in big trouble. *G

TimG< It would be interesting to go to an auto museum with a Franklin and sit in it.

greyman< TimG: Yes, a Franklin in mint condition. Arr Arr Arr.

TimG< greyman: I bet it could stop on a dime. hehehe

greyman< TimG: At least a Franklin half. *G*

Willow< I think I would try to spend more time in that 'freeze frame' ... and talk to my dad.

[Ben< The following post must have been in response to a private message.]

TimG< septic: You could also be recalling a scene from a movie you once saw.

Goldentree< Are you only looking at dreams or are you looking at visions as well?

[Ben< Goldentree: In this scenario, we're looking at a recurring dream.]

SWIFT< So is past life regression just a fantasy concocted by the imagination? How many Cleopatras are out there? Do people just take things in subliminally during early life from TV, books, history lessons, then use this at a subliminal level to construct a past life experience clothed by the imagination just to please an inner need of escapism or a will to believe there is an after-life? or just to please the regressionist? or does the imagination reveal deeper truths lost to the conscious mind?

Ben< ALL: When you look up the Franklin car, you find the last of them was built long before you were born into this life. (1920's).

Doucia< That's when it would confirm for me that this is a past life regression. I've had this happen before!

Yopo< 1920! Pre-Yopo. Case for a past-life experience seems to be getting stronger.

skier< Pre-Skier, too, although I have pictures of my grandfather's Franklin, so it could be my subconscious at that point.

Yopo< I might try to find a Franklin in an auto museum or something. See what it really looks like from the front seat.

Ben< COMMENT: From the somewhat sparse data I provided in this scenario, you have a basis for thinking this dream may be: (1) a past-life regression of your own, perhaps the moment before a previous death, or (2) the experience of a discarnate entity attached to you.

Ben< ALL: Having studied the previous dream scenario thus far, how would you go about deciding whether is was a past life regression of your own or the karmic memory of an attached entity? YOUR TURN

SLIDER< Ben: From the way you presented it, I would say case = 1.

FRAML< What I thought was a past life turned out to be an attached entity ... see my story about Sgt. Odom.

TimG< I hate it when that happens.

Esop< It never even occurred to me that this would be the experience of something attached to me.

mevelyn< I would just ASK.

5foot2< I speculate that since memories are electrical impulses stored cellularly, that memories from our ancestors are a part of us ... so in theory, we could be recalling the "memories" of our own families.

Yopo< 5foot2: That crossed my mind too. I've wondered if we might "tune in" on past lives like a radio ... even if they weren't actually our own.

LAGONE< Ben: I agree with 5foot2 and Yopo. Who's to say that the memories are not a part of our DNA????

FRAML< LAGONE: Memories as a part of our DNA? That is a new one to me.

LAGONE< FRAML: It's not a new theory. Many people have said this to me when I mention going to a new place and felt as if I had been there before.

STAR_MOON< LAGONE: In the book Embraced by the Light, the author states she learned in a near death experience that past life memories were a part of our DNA.

Yopo< FRAML: Well, I read somewhere about organ transplant recipients who subsequently have "phantom memories" that seem to relate to the unknown donor. Odd, eh?

Doucia< Well, like some said, try to find a Franklin in a museum or at an antique car show. Sit in the car. Ask myself "How do I feel? What is my emotional state?" See if it spurs back more memories.

Spirit57< Like a shoe. I would see how it fit me.

Esop< I do a clearing every night. I 'look' to see my energy and my space and I MAKE sure nothing and no one is attached to me. And then I would ask my guides.

Lo< That's a good idea, Esop.

Doucia< Ask for answers. *S*

SLIDER< I would say, go through a past life regression and see if the crash did happen and what happened to yourself afterward.

Ben< SLIDER: Yes, it is a good idea to see if you can fast-forward the dream sequence, beyond the point at which it normally stops. The results of doing that can be very interesting.

order< I guess I wouldn't even begin to assume it was some 'other' entity ... but then neither would I assume, at this point, on these facts alone, that it was a past life regression. *S* Seems to me a past life regression that continually occurred in a dream would also be somewhat apparent in feelings about automobiles in general, or quick stops, or jerking/throwing motions ... something more 'should' in my mind must be present to give verification of the dream as a past life experience.

Yopo< This is getting harder. *S* Maybe by trying to decide if we carry "past-life baggage" relating to that experience? But ... still couldn't be sure the baggage we carry is all ours.

skier< You can meditate and sort of step out of yourself and see if there are discarnate entities near you.

SWIFT< If the car accident took place within a dream, why would we put ourself through that terrible experience? And it hardly seems like a fantasy of being the Pharaoh Tutankhamen, not the kind of thing our mind would intentionally consciously construct. These kind of horrors/nightmares are more subliminal than not; they are within deeper parts of the mind. I would expect such an experience would not be expected at all and would come as a surprise/shock when first experienced.

star12< Ben: Please explain what you mean by an attached entity.

Ben< star12: An attached entity is a discarnate soul or spirit. In this case, most likely the earth-bound ghost of a child killed in an automobile.

Esop< Ben: Ohhhhhhhh, that makes sense. An earth-bound ghost. Sure, that could happen.

star12< Ben: Why has the attached entity not gone "home"?

[Ben<star12: Sorry I missed this question. Glad you asked again later.]

STAR_MOON< Why would the discarnate spirit attach itself to a person who does not know anything about it?

FRAML< STAR_MOON: Because there is something in you that attracts them; kindness, interest in their time period, a vulnerability they can exploit. I have a personal testimony of that type on my site as well.

TimG< STAR_MOON: Even living beings attach themselves to others for many reasons.

Esop< TimG: That's true. I read where once the day gets rolling, and we get in the hustle of things, because of telepathy, 75% of what we think are not our own thoughts. Meditation helps to take ownership of what is ours, though.

Ben< STAR_MOON: An attachee is often just lost and lonely.

Lo< And confused too, Ben?

Ben< Lo: Yes. Often confused. I can see that I'll need to do a whole seminar on spirit rescue.

Lo< Sounds like a good idea, Ben, I know someplace that would appreciate it (hehe)

STAR_MOON< Ben: Is a lonely spirit attracted to any particular type of person?

pigboy< Do we all have attached entities?

Esop< pigboy: No.

order< pigboy: I don't have any. **Grins**

Ben< COMMENT: It often isn't easy to tell the difference between past life regression and attached entities. One approach is to *assume* the child is an attached entity and speak to it as such while remembering the dream. If the child responds to your conversation, it may well be an attached entity.

Yopo< Ben: The idea there being that we cannot engage our own past selves in discourse? Hmm ... Bunch of odd ideas just flew through my head like bats when you said that. *S*

Ben< STAR_MOON: Cell-memory and soul-memory are often very different. For example, cell-memory may contain every agonizing bit of a previous death trauma, but the soul exited the body before the trauma and so doesn't remember it. That difference often shows up in past life therapy sessions.

STAR_MOON< Ben: Your last statement brings me to a question. I have noticed when reading books about past lives that during regressions people report they don't feel pain involved with their deaths even when they are traumatic painful deaths. I found this hopeful. Are you saying our souls don't feel this pain but our cells do?

dancer< STAR_MOON: I remember a past life death of being burned. There was no pain, but tremendous heat. I discovered that I had died from suffocation due to the flames sucking up all of the oxygen before the flames touched me. Then my spirit left and observed from above, totally tranquil and at peace ... glimpsed a very bright light and at that point was thrown out of the vision ... awakened ... but no pain at all that I recall.

STAR_MOON< dancer: When your spirit was watching, did the person (you) appear to be in pain?

dancer< STAR_MOON: No, died of lack of oxygen before floating.

Star_Mom< I'd like to hear more about the 75% of our thinking that is not ours. Where did you get that info???

[Ben Star_Mom: I don't know about the 75% figure (Esop mentioned it), but I do know from experience that all our thoughts are not our own.]

pigboy< Hmmm. How can cell memory remember previous death? I don't understand that one.

[Ben< pigboy: The little sparks of light (spirits) that enliven individual cells have some awareness and memory. Each group or cluster of these little spirits has what amounts to a corporate memory.]

Lo< Ben: You have told me before that someone suffering from depression or other illnesses can be susceptible to entities trying to attach, right?

TimG< Lo: That may be the cause of their depression!

greyman< If one's own desires can not be a litmus test on personal/discarnate identification, the discarnate must be removed in order to continue testing.

order< Hmmm ... I don't believe in entities that attach themselves to us.

Lo< order: I wish I didn't. I have seen the change in a person that has experienced that.

order< Lo: I would come up with another explanation. *S

Lo< order: Until you find other explanations don't work.

order< Lo: This sorta sounds like (and no disrespect intended) 'the devil made me do it'. ??? If we are not in charge of our own lives, if something other can attach itself and then pass itself off as 'us' and have influence on us and our actions, how is this different from the old scary story of the 'devil' is gunna get you?? To me it sounds like moving backwards into medieval times when spirits were said even to impregnate females. ??? *S

Lo< order: S'ok. What I understood from Ben is that the weakened condition of the person leaves them open for attachment.

order< Lo: Twas what was stated of old ... weakness is why 'the devil' got 'in'. *Grins*

Lo< order: Works for me. :-)

Ben< order: What were the sources of the voices that spoke to Joan of Arc?

order< Ben: I was not present, so I do not 'know' that voices DID speak to Joan of Arc. (with great respect) *S*

LEGS< order: I assume Ben's questions are asking for our opinions not depositions of facts. *g*

order< LEGS: I gave the best answer I had to offer. *S

[Ben< order: Good point. We have Joan of Arc's testimony that voices spoke to her, but we do not know she was telling the truth. If we believe her, it is because we take her word for it, perhaps because so many others report similar experiences, or perhaps because we have had similar experiences ourselves.]

TimG< Ben: Would the fact this was a dream differ from a deja vu experience?

Ben< TimG: deja vu is a symptom of recognition. It is usually the result of a precognitive dream that one has forgotten.

LadyV< Ben: A precognitive dream is what? Please explain to us what you mean by this term.

[Ben<LadyV: A precognitive dream is of something that actually happens later. These are sometimes called "prophetic" dreams. I've had such dreams, and later events happened as I had foreseen them, but I don't understand how this works.]

Ben< ALL: While remembering the dream, you may discover that you can re-wind the videotape to earlier times, before this dream-sequence started. What would you do with that discovery? How would you go about using it? YOUR TURN

Doucia< I'd write down as much as I can remember ... details, events ... to try and remember what my purpose was in this lifetime.

SLIDER< I think I would treat it as an interesting part of nostalgia.

skier< Since you are a child in the dream, try to rewind it back past the time of your birth and see if it is still "you" or not.

Yopo< If I really thought I'd discovered a former me, I'd probably play as much of the tape as I could. Might tell me something about the current me I'd never understood before. It would also change my world-view, to know for certain I'd had a previous life.

Lor< Yopo: Sometimes experiences from former lifetimes are better left out of our present cognizance for our own good. I believe that is why many of us do not readily remember them.

Yopo< Lor: Maybe so. But if something like the dream Ben described keeps popping up, it might suggest there's something about it that is currently relevant.

LEGS< Yopo: *s* I think that is the purpose for many who undertake regression therapy ... to learn more of triggers in present life. *s*

Lo< LEGS: I have only had one recall, in a waking state, and I discovered a connection to someone in my present which really educated me about why I had been having problems with that person. After the recall, everything fell into place and it was no longer a trigger in my life.

the_Other< LEGS: Sooo true (regressive stuff). Been there ... did it ... can be so dangerous without a guide.

SWIFT< Well, Ben, you did say that it's us that sees what happens; it's us in the seat as a passenger; we feel it happens to us. I would say no other than us or a part of our mind could feel the experience or impose the experience upon us. This hypothetical entity could be part of us, not so much latching on but always been there, as a past life in it's entirety would be also an individual with respect and in relation to conscious ourself, much in the same way our higher self can be seen as also an individual in many ways with it's own thought-form constructed body independent of ours. This is possible at a spiritual level, yet all parts can experience the same, as they are truly one.

mevelyn< Ben: If one believes in the idea of one mind/soul/memory/moment, etc., does it really matter? or does the concept of separateness even exist?

[Ben< mevelyn: The idea that "all is one" is a theory. One implication of that theory is that individuals don't matter much; we are merely the replaceable parts of a giant organism. But I believe each individual is important.]

Aradiaa< Ben: I'm new to this sort of thing. Can we ask questions along the way? Or should we wait for something along the same lines to come up?

[Ben< Aradiaa: Questions are welcome. This is a semi-structured seminar. I just hope that folks stay somewhere in the vicinity of the topic.]

Dreamworld< Is it possible to meet someone and instantly know that both of you had been in Atlantis together?

FRAML< Dreamworld: Probably not, but I've had the experience of "meeting an old friend for the first time." That is for later in this series.

mevelyn< Ben: These ideas seem to suggest that we are "separate". We are certainly individual but not separate ... sooooo, it is only logical to assume that all thoughts are available to us ... depending on our chosen paths and the service the knowledge would provide.

[Ben< mevelyn: Individuals are separate if they are not linked to other individuals by caring-connections. It is possible to be separate -- alone -- in a crowd. Most are connected to a few others, and some are connected to many, but no individual is functionally connected to every other individual. We sometimes pick up thoughts of those we are connected to, and we can create new caring-connections, but if all thoughts were available to us, we would be overwhelmed by the noise.]

greyman< Scimus te prae litteras fatuum esse. (We know that you are mad with much learning.) -- Petronius (d. c.66 AD)

Ben< ALL: My apologies. This session is moving way too fast for me to respond as I would like to. I'll try to add some responses when I edit the transcript. And for those who wish to, we can dialogue in the next hour.

Ben< ALL: When you re-wind the videotape farther and farther, you find you know less and less. If you rewind it still farther, you may re-experience the process of being born into this world. And if you re-wind it still farther, you may find yourself out of the body and suddenly remember why you wanted to be born.

greyman< Ben: Ahhhhh, the question of desire!

the_Other< Ben: About wanting to be born ... that suggests a developed cognitive state prior to birth.

Yopo< the_Other: If you accept that we pass through a series of lifetimes, that's almost a "given". Something links 'em together, and that "something" would also exist during the intervals between.

Doucia< Ben: I'd like to know how to be able to rewind this tape, so to speak ... or fast forward it.

Ben< Doucia: Playing with one's memory tapes is an excellent form of meditation that improves with practice. When I first access a deep memory (such as of a birthday party when I was a kid), I only remember the highlights. As I go over it again and again, I remember more and more detail. Eventually I remember moment-by-moment, even what I was thinking at the time. It's rather fun.

Esop< Ben: I've done that for this lifetime. Everyone has the ability to regress themselves.

order< Ben: I did that once, maybe. I was attempting to follow a trait to it's source. Kept moving back and back further ... until a babe. Then an image came into my mind ... black and white ... a man in a suit wearing sunglasses was all I saw. The sunglasses began to raise by themselves and when the eyes were revealed, all changed into words that I could read ... scrolling downward. I remember jolting from great fear out of meditation, and was afraid for some time??? I'm thinking, if I had not been afraid, I might have stayed to read the answer I sought? (shrugs)

LEGS< order: I would think, from what Ben said, you could now return, from a greater confidence level ... play the tape again, in effect, with the awareness that was then ... is not able to harm you now.

order< LEGS: No ... that moment has passed. I've tried many times, over many years. Other images may and do arise, but that one is gone! The fear within may have been something I did not want to see then, and that I have integrated now ... whatever ... that moment is passed. *S

the_Other< Ben: Do you suggest getting ONE life in control at a time? I have a hard enough time doing THAT!!! As we ALL do here! *smiling*

[Ben< the_Other: Yes, I do. However, there may be some things buried in either this-life or past-life subconscious memories that we need to surface and resolve in order to get this life under control.]

LEGS< When my sister was regressed once, I was in the room. So was Kathleen. My sister began to rub her hand and seemed concerned with it. The one in charge of the regression brought her forward and out of the session. As we visited, she continued to rub her hand and occasionally looked at it curiously, until Kathleen urged her to say "That was then, this is now ... my hand is whole and unharmed" after which she was not worried with it. She said it kept burning and felt painful until she 'released' the memory of the regression with Kathleen's suggestion.

FRAML< LEGS: That shows that the person doing the regression either wasn't very well trained in how to do it, or didn't care about how or what the person felt afterward; they just were interested in "doing it." Kathleen did what the person doing the regression should have done before he brought your sister out of the regression.

SWIFT< I remember I went back to my birth. All I saw were my own hands in front of me; I also saw them as being big. I felt that they had little connection with me, just something to look at, the only thing I had to stare at. I really felt there was nothing else, no concept of having a physical body. I felt timeless, no worries; it was a sense of retreat.

LadyV< Come to think of it, if you remove the terms of explanation and just sit down and think ... going back to an age that you want to return to in your mind ... like say 11 years old ... and picture yourself as you were then, and feel that person again, and love that person ... and then go forward or backward at will until you fully see the self that one is ... it is a good healing technique. I am not sure, but I think that is some of what Ben may be saying to us. I am not familiar with all of this, but I do understand that one can return to what one has been. It is in our brains ... a matter of recall ... all the feelings and memories are there. Some need help to do this, which is OK ... I would imagine.

greyman< LadyV: Or what our mind has access to.

LadyV< greyman: How so? Is there something else that is hidden that our mind does not have access to? Please explain? As in denial?? As in, what? ... come on, (smiling) I know when you answer I will be up half the night trying to figure it out. (grinning)

greyman< LadyV: If you buy into having a discarnate attached and sharing experiences, the sharing of thought should be of no great leap. *G*.

LadyV< greyman: (laughing) Even the scientist buys into that if the soul and the heart is awake. (grinning) Thank you.

Lo< I used to spontaneously go through my birth trauma whenever I saw a baby being born (like on TV or in a movie). I would faint and wake up with horrible pain near my temples. I finally found out that I was breach and they had to use forceps to get me out. Once I learned that I never experienced the fainting again.

Ben< COMMENT: Spontaneous regression experiences have been reported by many people. This scenario was merely one example of how it can happen and some of the things we may be able to do with such experiences.

Ben< /topic Discussion of Past Life Regression

Yopo< That was a quick hour! Very interesting topic. *S*

greyman< "Time's fun when you're having flies." --Kermit the Frog.

Ben< Hah! My opening statement about "post time" should have been "off to the races!" This has been an amazing session. Thank you all! I'm going to have fun reviewing it, especially since I missed so much enroute.

Lo< LOL, Ben. That's what you get for being so thought-provoking.

LAGONE< Ben: I think I said that first. Does this mean I had something to give to the chat?

Ben< LAGONE: You were right on target with that remark about "off to the races"!

LAGONE< Ben: Thanks!

Goldentree< Ben: When will you be talking about visions of past lives?

[Ben< Goldentree: I'm sorry I missed this question. I would have asked you for an example of what you mean by visions of past lives.]

Doucia< Thanks, Ben. I have memories of being on the Titanic. When I saw the movie, I knew the ship, and throughout the movie I was suffocating. I then discovered that I was on The Ship of Dreams and I drowned. Since then, I've had 'dreams' of this time period. I've seen myself on the Ship, in my private room ... felt my pain as I knew that I would not survive ... but I would like to know so much more.

Esop< Doucia: Wow! I wondered if that movie would get to anyone like that.

Doucia< Esop: It was very difficult for me to watch it the first time.

TimG< No offense, Doucia, but it seems to me that the extremely high occurrence of celebrity past lives tends to invalidate most regressions. Everyone wants to be a famous dead person.

Doucia< TimG: Well, I don't think I was a famous person in a past life (not as I can remember now, anyhow), but I truly believe in past life regressions because the memories and dreams I've had were of things I've never seen before, things that were not in any movie or book.

Lo< TimG: My recall was as a slave, hardly a desirable occupation.

TimG< Lo: Most, not all. There is a definite popular culture where there are thousands of Napoleons, thousands of Cleopatras, and millions of people from the Titanic. Few want to be slaves, so they aren't.

Lo< TimG: I understand your point, but I don't think it negates the possibility.

TimG< Lo: It doesn't negate it. I believe it is real, and it has happened to me. I think there are REAL psychics, too, but the likelihood of them working for the psychic friends network is pretty slim.

Lo< Ah, yes, TimG.

Yopo< TimG: I've also wondered if only one soul experiences a physical lifetime. Maybe more than one soul has had need to sit in the Napoleon seat, if ya follow me.

skier< TimG: Of all the people I know who claim past lives, I never knew anyone who claimed to be famous. Except for one overbearing person who said she was in the court of Louis XIV. I knew she had been, but I refrained from saying "Yes, you were a prostitute, and everyone made smutty remarks behind your back."

Lo< skier: LOL!

LadyV< skier: You were kind to refrain from saying what the lady perhaps was not ready to hear ... (smiling) ... at that moment, anyway.

majenta< skier: I accept what I am given; remember that her life and yours, and future potentials, are all occurring in spherical time simultaneously. I think that you can effect the past as well as the future, so your comment about helping each other is probably truer than what you knew.

FRAML< TimG: I have to agree with you. Many of the people I've seen here in SWC have been interested in past life regression only to find out if they "were someone famous" in the past, or just out of curiosity. It apparently didn't occur to them that a regression could bring forth pain from the past that is best left there. Especially if the person was handled by someone like the person who did LEG's sister and didn't know enough to deal with the pain they uncovered.

Doucia< FRAML: Sometimes past life regressions help us heal wounds, and understand more about ourselves now ... but yes, some things are better left in the "past".

majenta< FRAML: I think we can be helped by past life memory to understand our relationships and reactions, etc, in this one. Sometimes we need to release the pain, in order to progress in this life also.

the_Other< FRAML: Knowing how to handle the pain -- the darkness -- is essential. People have lost it doing this. I hit a moment when I was 8 years old. I became 8 all over again. My wife looked at me (I was conscious) as if I was another person. She said my face changed ... it was like a child's face. I felt it, too.

Aradiaa< I have always wondered why, when most people recall their past lives, they seem to be in the far past, and not the last incarnation one was in. Why is this? (Wouldn't it be easier to remember the one before this one?)

skier< Aradiaa: I think we tend to recall those lives which have the most bearing on the one we're living now, regardless of where they fell in our chronology.

Yopo< Aradiaa: Maybe our "past lives" are not experienced in a temporal sequence. We like to impose the sort of temporal order we are familiar with on such things, but I'm not completely sure that is appropriate. Who is to say, for example, that your next lifetime might not be in 16th Century England? I've thought that just maybe the order of lifetimes might be governed by what we need to experience and learn.

mevelyn< Yopo: You are on track about that!

order< Yopo: Have considered the same thing. *VBS* Am thinking, also, that maybe Tolkien's Middle Earth may have been one of my lifetimes, or maybe I will visit there next time. Who knows? *G*

Yopo< order: *S* Could be. The "imaginary" and the "real" may be points of view. Who can really say that a work of the imagination ... a created fictional world ... isn't a dim perception of some alternate reality? It's a VERY complex realm, consciousness.

order< Yopo: Ahaha! You caught my point ... exactly! *VBS*

STAR_MOON< Yopo: Very interesting. Then maybe one person could live during the same era repeatedly also.

Yopo< STAR_MOON: Yeah. I might be my own father, in a way. Perhaps the soul in me was working on some issue between the two of us, say. Perhaps, to learn, I have sat in both seats. Might it even be that a whole procession of souls would experience the same physical lifeline in succession? Just speculating ...

STAR_MOON< Yopo: Interesting speculation.

SLIDER< Yopo: That may be it. We all get to experience each event and personality. *S*

[Ben< SLIDER: I can think of a lot of events I wouldn't want to experience, and a lot of personalities I wouldn't want to be. *smile*]

majenta< May I ask a question? Sorry to have come in late, but I am wondering if we could trigger somehow past life memory in meditation. Does anyone have a technique?

pigboy< Good question, majenta ... and how many techniques are there?

mevelyn< majenta: I personally do not use "techniques" in meditation or guidance. I only ask for information that will serve the path I have chosen this time. A pure intention is a good rule of thumb if you need guidelines.

Esop< majenta: I have a method. First, I do the basics (relax, breathing, light, guides), then I imagine myself stepping backwards into a tunnel of light. It pulls me like a vacuum. I do not know what lifetime I will land in. I like the element of surprise, and I don't plan anything. I feel myself going backwards, and when it stops, I open my eyes (not literally), and look around. Things begin to come into focus. I look down to see how I am dressed, my surroundings, and go from there.

majenta< Esop: Thanks, I'll give it a try.

Esop< And you also have the ability to go to any time and any space and actually be there! (like the lady who did the past life regressions on people who were talking to Nostradamus ... I can't remember her name right now).

the_Other< In 1993 I experienced Satori. Anyone else? Been recovering ever since!

Joan< the_Other: What is Satori?

the_Other< Joan: In Zen Buddhism, Satori is the experience all seek ... and you can't get it by searching for it ... "the abrupt illumination of the soul" incredible clearing -- like an instantaneous vision of your entire life in a burst ... but there is more to it.

mevelyn< the_Other: Satori sounds very much like my experience a year ago!

Joan< the_Other: Oh! Now I see what you mean -- that you're still recovering. *S*

SLIDER< Ben: While in the bush in Vietnam, I experienced my own death from another war in a dream. I was shot from behind by strafing aircraft, and remembered feeling the bullets tear through me and even felt the pain. I left my body and felt so happy to finally find out what heaven was like. I started to rise, and found myself in a grey-blue fog with no pain or any other sensation. Then I heard a voice ??? telling me it was not time to go yet, and woke up back where I was. From that point on, I did not fear getting killed. This happened 29 years ago and it is still fresh in my memory.

[Ben< SLIDER: Remembering a past death can unload one's fear of the unknown in regard to death. Basically, the thought or feeling is: "Been there. Done that."]

Doucia< To add further to my story ... I counseled an Angelic channeler who confirmed my memories. Since then I've been obsessed with finding out more information.

majenta< I had a spontaneous regression once many years ago. I was drowned by a man I had rejected. He is my brother in this life, and he has always hated me! I understand why because I was given the memory ... for a good reason, I think.

Lo< majenta: I agree, my recall improved my life a lot. The other person in it had been a struggle for 18 years in this life. I'm so glad that's over.

Aradiaa< Sometimes, in this incarnation, I will have times where a supposed past life experience will replay itself over and over in my conscious mind. I have often wondered if this was because there is a connection somehow with the past life experience and something I am going through at the present.

skier< Aradiaa: ABSOLUTELY!!

majenta< skier: I am often shown myself standing up high in the wind wearing a black robe and cape, holding on my arm a falcon or similar. When she acts as my doorkeeper, she shows herself dressed in a magenta gown with gold jewelry. She brings me knowing about the use of energy in the form of magic. The more I call her (i.e., daily at night), the more strongly she comes in. I am learning to trust her also, and this helps. We are BUILDING a good working relationship. I ask her to show me her life, and she does. We walk about the pyramid together. It was a rather quiet, protected life. Things are speedier now.

pigboy< I have read history books, and find that historians can only speculate about events that have taken place. The more ancient the events are, the more speculation involved. If there is any truth to past life regression, it would be a good way to get the true picture of past events. Not an easy task, I know, but could it be done? Could there be a database setup somewhere to receive collective accounts of past events via personal experiences of regression? ... just wondering.

Doucia< Very interesting, pigboy ... good point.

CrystalGem< Boy, am I sorry I missed this discussion! When did it start?

STAR_MOON< Welcome, CrystalGem.

SWIFT< Buddha Guatama chose to stay in this world and teach using his memories of the 24 lives he had experienced while on the path as a Bodhisattva to illustrate his teachings. Very similar to Ben's comments on rewinding and fast-forwarding. Seems there is much to learn and it comes in useful.

the_Other< Did I miss this tonight? That the purpose of going BACK in the first place is to clear up a source of anguish in the present ... going back should not be done for someone's hollow entertainment. At least I see that.

majenta< My aim is to bring all the knowledge and experience into one existence; all of me, so to speak. Wouldn't that be a wonderful thing? My doorkeeper is me from a previous life. She is giving me more and more info on when I was an Egyptian priestess, great stuff. I just want to remember all of who I am, all of MY experiences, become more whole.

KalDe< majenta: Oneness is the perfect integration of all that you are. *S*

the_Other< majenta: What would you do with that info in this life?

majenta< I would hopefully integrate it (a tall order, probably why I can't. *s*). Hopefully I would be a wiser person, capable of being of greater service at this time of need upon the great mother.

KalDe< majenta: The integration is a "process". Experience is the Teacher. Knowledge is the Liberator; and Wisdom the Master Himself. {RJ}

majenta< I think it is a bit like letting go of our limitations in this life, and becoming our higher self. It is just a matter of releasing ego of this life and becoming more of who we are. There isn't any loss, but much to gain.

FRAML< Doucia & majenta: I agree with you about the need to do a regression to find the source of a pain/problem in this life that has no other explanation. My point was that I've met so many in here who just wanted to do it "for giggles and grins" and had no concept that something could be uncovered that, if not handled properly, could mess up their current life.

Levita< FRAML: Good point. *S*

Doucia< FRAML: Yes, past life regressions are a fragile issue ... good point *S*

Goldentree< (((Doucia)))) I agree.

LEGS< FRAML: You're right, it isn't for giggles ... and can start problems where none were before. I am reminded that the institutions are still housing various 'famous' individuals from 20th century psychotic illnesses. Strange how remembering you were Plain Jane doesn't quite do the same thing to you as the impression that you were/are St. Nicholas or one of the victims of Jack the Ripper.

afterlife17< LEGS: Wow! Exactly.

Levita< LEGS: Yes, remembering can be traumatic.

katzenbou< Population experts say that there are more people on the earth now than at all times put together at once. In other words, there are more souls on Earth now than there ever have been in history. That would mean that not all persons could have had a past life, does it not?

Doucia< katzenbou ... hmmm ... there are also many Angels "disguised" as humans on earth at this moment to help with the healing process. *S*

majenta< katzenbou: There are infinite possibilities. I think you can be incarnate in more than one body at the same linear time. I also believe that not all new souls (or old) have come from this earth; there are infinite stars and planets.

Levita< katzenbou: Mayhaps some are souls that previously were not of the earth? Earth is not the only planet that houses souls.

Yopo< katzenbou: Well, it IS a big Universe. But that might be another problem resolved by reusable physical lifetimes. Not the "no deposit, no return scenario".

katzenbou< And when regressing, how does one differentiate between reality and wishful thinking? Sorry, this might have been covered. Just got in. Hello, all.

afterlife17< katzenbou: I have done both ... all in one reading. I was able to tell which was real and which was fantasy.

Aradiaa< I also have memories from my childhood ... when I was very young ... where I would "notice" certain things (in other words, certain things would stand out, and I can remember them to this day) ... and often wonder if it is because before one is conscious of "being" (before one actually realizes oneself, as we adults have a concept of being) the mind picks up and uses symbols rather than words to convey thoughts.

miss_tree< ((Aradiaa)) I think that children often come into this life carrying memories of their most "recent" incarnation. Small children often have astounding traits and peculiarities that fade as they grow more into the current personality. Talents also can carry over from past lives, *s* and children are just more naturally open to the universe, not having learned that what they experience is not considered "real" in the "adult" world. *vbs*

CrystalGem< Such as a 6 year old who is now in college. The oddities of that blow the mind.

Aradiaa< miss_tree: Yes, that's what I meant by that post. Seems like when I was a child certain things stood out (looking back now), and I'm wondering if it was because I was relating to a past life, not in words, but in symbols, in dreams. Either I have one heck of an imagination, or I've lived before. My dreams are vivid and I have a vast amount of them where things are very clear.

miss_tree< ((Aradiaa)) It's quite possible. I traveled a lot as a kid and there were places that used to bring images very strongly. Nothing traumatic, but I'd be somewhere and would "see" things going on in an entirely different era. Sometimes people trigger them for me. And on occasion they come in lucid dreams, especially when I'm clearing up something in this life that is connected. It's interesting when the confirmation comes from another, but I think you can sense the difference between fantasy and "reality" if you are willing to be honest with yourself. I have no complete memories, however, and don't go looking for them. *s* I believe we have all the tools we need in this life to resolve the issues, but I understand that it is very helpful for some people to regress. *s*

STAR_MOON< My viewpoint may be somewhat different. I don't think it matters whether we have past lives or not. If people heal from the use of it, then it is positive no matter where the memories are coming from. I think if your intent is pure and your goal to be one with God, you'll be fine no matter what road to Rome you follow.

FRAML< Good night to those departing. Remember to keep a pencil and notepad on your night-stand so you can record your dreams whenever you wake up.

the_Other< FRAML: I read your home page. So you experienced that 'voice' also? We should trade insights sometime.

FRAML< the_Other: No insights from me, really. I just have learned to recognize it. And to listen.

the_Other< FRAML: You are mistaken. What happened to you in the soup kitchen was a pure insight. By that incident, you were able to do something that shrinks take all your $ for doing over a period of a year! "Make them my children"! How cool that is!

FRAML< the_Other: Soup kitchen? The soup kitchen story isn't mine; it is from a friend of mine who lives in Massachusetts. I have links to her pages because of her experiences. Rei's pages are: Spirituality Learned the Hard Way, To the Point Lessons, and Moments of Insight Experiences.

Yopo< Lifetimes ... like books on the shelves of a vast library ... each book with certain lessons. A soul wandering through the stacks with a teacher, who says: "I think you should read this one. There are lessons in it you need."

afterlife17< Whooo, Yopo ... cool!

Levita< Yopo: I like the sound of that.

Yopo< Levita: It's one of those ideas or metaphors that I sorta resonate with, but not one that I have any evidence for.

Levita< Yopo: Well, I concur that each life is, as you put it, a book or a page or a chapter of one eternal life. This for me has become a personal truth.

STAR_MOON< Yopo: Have you ever seen the Buddha movie with Keano Reeves? In that movie, three separate people returned who were all Buddha in a past life.

LadyV< Yopo: I think you were a Monk ... no kidding!

SWIFT< My Nephew said he lived next door to me, and also, when we went for a walk in the woods next to a river once, he said he pulled me out of the river when I was young -- a little boy. He said "Do you remember?" He was only 3 at the time; he is nearly 4 now.

LEGS< SWIFT: He is possibly 'remembering,' you know. The little boy next to us once said "When I was older, I could have stepped all the way across this sidewalk." He was just 5 ... and is a preacher now. *G* But he also told my dad, "When you were little and had blonde curls and wore dresses, I thought you were cute in the carriage." Daddy remarked about it with a laugh, at grandmother's Sunday dinner the next week, and she started weeping. Seems she had wanted a little girl and let daddy's hair grow in long golden curls and dressed him as a baby girl, and trundled him in a velvet upholstered carriage in Joplin. Daddy thought he had always been dark-headed. *G* But we never figured out who the little boy "had been" then.

SWIFT< LEGS: Seems the best evidence comes spontaneously from very young children in the form of passing comments, as though something triggers their past life memories. They speak so naturally about it, as though it was nothing strange.

Yopo< LEGS: My niece, Robin, is now 6. A couple of years ago, she started talking to her mother Eve about her OTHER mother. This went on for several weeks, then she stopped talking about her. She talked about her other house, too.

LEGS< Yopo: I always thought I was a twin as a child. I told stories about us, and pretended to be both of us. No evidence now that I may have been one (since, if so, the other never was born as a child but lost before my birth), but a glimpse of my aura being magenta on only one side of me led someone to ask if I were a twin because that was common with twins. Many things to ponder in this world. *s*

Yopo< LEGS: Yeah, much to wonder about. The twin thing, for example. Suggests maybe we are more on some level than what we suspect. I wonder sometimes if maybe we fragment when we come here. If maybe this sense of being individuals is illusion. Maybe a greater consciousness extends itself into multiple bodies. Parts of us all over the durn place, gathering up experience.

LEGS< But an active imagination can account for a lot of this stuff in my personal life. I never know what to discount as such, or to accept as a glimpse or flashback or intuition. *s*

Gracie< LEGS: Someone wiser than me once said: imagination is creativity in it's infancy.

Aradiaa< I remember streets I've walked down, houses I've been in, things I was doing (places I've never been), and it all feels so strange (and yet so familiar) ... a totally different feeling than the one I carry in this life.

M&M_Hearse< I had three Past Life Regressions, and my mom did all of them herself with a book called: A Practical Guide To Past Life Regression.

the_Other< Ben: Good points here tonight. It happened to me 5 years ago, and writing about it was hellish at times, but it's done and I will self-publish it next week. Someone asked me yesterday, what the benefit in this life was to knowing that you were a soldier in the Roman army? I could not answer. He said it had no practical benefits.

Levita< the_Other: The one benefit of knowing another life is that it provides a definite belief life goes on after physical death, and alleviates the fear of death.

the_Other< Levita: Is that the purpose? If so, then in itself it has no value. Its value is de-facto ... like this: I can enjoy the ocean voyage on a ship but I must take it to get to England! See what I mean? And for those who have no fear of death? like me? I died already anyway years ago ... I mean I accepted it as it was an inch away and by doing that one loses their fear without having to go through a ritual ... comments?

Levita< the_Other: I was answering from the perspective of someone who is asking and is not (shall we say) as open to differing spiritual concepts, so was keeping it to a simple type answer. It was not meant to be a defining explanation. For me, past life is in one life. I am the sum of everything I have lived at any time. I have a hard time trying to individualize the memories ... if this makes sense.

Yopo< Ben: Your seminars always get my mind going. Can't tell ya how much they're appreciated! One of the best things happening on SWC, and I thank you for 'em!

Aradiaa< Yes! Thank-you, Ben! This is a great way to find out more about this subject!

Levita< Ben: Sorry I missed the seminar. Will have to check your home page and get the notes.

afterlife17< Levita: Tomorrow you can go into Review here and it will show what was posted today ... see? below?

LEGS< Levita: Ben will have it edited and 'strung' a bit better ... putting the answers to the same question in line. On-line on his page later this week ... and meanwhile, former seminars are available there now. *G* Click on his name.

Yopo< LEGS: Ben's got his work cut out for him, with this one. *S* Very high-energy discussion tonight.

LEGS< Ben: Thanks for this series. It will be helpful to many of us. Looking forward to the next two sessions. *g*

Ben< LEGS: You're welcome. Many of the inputs tonight were right in line with where I hope to go with this topic.

LadyV< Ben: In the grand scheme of things ... would like for you to address the remembering of the dream, and while remembering the dream you address the child and the child responds ... in your mind, of course ... then it is an attached entity ... that was a lot said.

[Ben< LadyV: Yes, I will try to get to that topic "in the grand scheme of things".]

LadyV< I had the experience of choosing to sit near the grave of a young pilot that died in WWII in another city. I was impelled to sit there. It had a little bench, and for hours I would listen. Never heard a darn thing, but for some reason I had to be there. Eventually, it passed, and I stopped going to the grave side. Hope it comforted the man that I did not know who was buried there. Will never forget it as long as I live. Never knew the guy or anything about him, but for some reason, I felt he knew me.

LEGS< (((((((LadyV))))))) Your kind heart may have been the catalyst he needed to let go and head for the light.

LadyV< LEGS: Thank you.

star12< Will someone who believes in "attached entity's" please tell me why they think they hang around Earth? Please?

Ben< star12: There are many reasons why souls hang around earth as discarnate (disembodied) entities. For some examples, look under SAMPLER and then "Spiritual Search and Rescue Operations" on my site.

star12< OK, Ben, I ask because the idea of it scares me. Thank you for answering.

skier< Ben: Thank you so much for the great topic and the way you guided the discussion tonight. It helps so much to know I'm not alone in my views, which I am sure could appear skewed to many of the people I see in my daily life. It also helps to hear others' points of view. The mind is like a muscle; it needs stretching from time to time.

Willapa< This may be a stupid question, but why are past lives so predominately on this planet when there is an entire universe within which to reincarnate?

Levita< Willapa: Not all past lives are from this planet. It is just the more commonly discussed one.

KalDe< Willapa: It is not that others don't exist; it is that most tend to recall what will be most beneficial in this time/life, something that is linked to the current lesson.

FRAML< Willapa: Because most of us and our souls lived on this planet. This is "home" and we don't know another one. But if this planet were to "poof" I suppose then all of the souls here could get together to migrate to someplace else ... and then reincarnate as Varangian swamp beasts. *G*

Yopo< Varangian swamp beasts? *S* My boss may have been one in a past life.

Levita< Yopo: LOL! (Pats arm consolingly.) Poor Yopo with beastie boss.

skier< Yopo: I think my boss is an alien.

Yopo< skier: *LOL* Alien bosses are par for the course.

FRAML< Willapa: Click on my name and go to my second page, under "Random Thoughts". That topic is addressed when I asked Ben about it 5 years ago.

Willapa< FRAML: I understand what you're saying, though the logic seems a bit circular. WHY are most of us and our souls restricted to this planet?

miss_tree< Willapa: I don't think it's a restriction; I think it's probably a choice. I think we also incarnate in soul groups. Many of my dearest friends I know I've shared other lives with. We are helping each other out of love. *vbs*

FRAML< Willapa: I guess it's because we like it here. Also, to travel somewhere else would be to know that it exists and is a place where we want to reincarnate. But also think about the fact that we could end up as a different life form where our memories would be of no use.

Willapa< Ahhh, Thank you all for clarifying. I think I understand and grasp a little better the rationale.

Levita< Willapa: I have memories of other places; I just don't usually discuss them. So, yes, we are here ... but for me this is splitting hairs in one sense, for all is spirit before it incarnates, irregardless of the species.

Rainbowhawk< I think my cat Aqua was my old cat Caspar in his past life.

Willapa< Evidently there is part of us that chooses to reincarnate though we aren't aware we make such choices, because an even more remote but knowledgeable part of us, in its wisdom, guides us to make such choices even though we later, upon reincarnation, become ignorant of those choices. Is this close?

KalDe< Willapa: I do have a memory of coming here from another place ... on a ship ... and the air here (on earth) being "thick" ... hard to breathe, etc. (a long memory/story) I would not say the explanation is a "rationale" but rather a valid reason.

Willapa< KalDe: I use the term "rationale" as "integral explanation of perceived events." I'm trying to understand the internal consistency of what I'm hearing. It's too easy to say, for example, that before we incarnate we're spirit (and therefore anything can happen). If reincarnation or past lives follow no consistency other than being pre-spirit and post-spirit, then there's no reason to assume that any past life would have more of a chance to be on this planet than any of the trillions of other planets in the universe.

Levita< Willapa: A good point.

Yopo< Willapa: One thing that puzzles me about that idea, though, is the WHY? If we already exist as a wiser spiritual being, what is the point of dropping our wisdom and going into a body to learn? Makes me wonder about agendas and such.

Levita< Yopo: Perhaps it is just the experiencing of a thing, and to experience it with the wisdom blinders on makes it all the more challenging, plus it is in many ways an ongoing creative process. To me creation is not a fixed thing but an ever expanding growing and changing thing ... just some thoughts *S*

KalDe< Yopo: The answer to that is simple: because Wisdom is discontent to know but not create, and the satisfaction of creating is greatest in the physical. (The actual verse is, "Here within the eternal place, philosophy is incarnate, wisdom being discontent to teach and not create." {RJ} )

Levita< KalDe: LOL! Similar answers there, hmmm. ;-)

Yopo< KalDe & Levita: Hmm ... Both comments seem like part of a single answer. *S* Yes, the creative impulse may be basic. And yes, one (One?) must define light and dark (knowing and not-knowing) to paint a picture or write a play.

Levita< Yopo: Ummm ... create something new they couldn't possibly have?

Yopo< Levita: Hmm ... Or pawns and kings and knights and queens in a cosmic chess game?

FRAML< Willapa: Actually, I still don't believe in reincarnation, though I will admit to the possibility that some people do believe in it, and have actually reincarnated. (If I do reincarnate, I want to come back as a Corvette.)

Levita< FRAML: I didn't realize you didn't believe in reincarnation. Neat. *S*

Gracie< FRAML: LOLOL ... a red corvette. I think that is called transmigration ... or is it transvestite? I forget.

FRAML< Gracie: You are thinking of Trans-Am. *G*

LEGS< FRAML: Trans-Am is cute. *G*

skier< FRAML: You made a good point. I think the lives we remember are those with a direct bearing on the one we're living now. Therefore, if we had lives as different life forms, those experiences might be meaningless to us now.

FRAML< skier: Actually, a person I know, to whom we were both "old friends meeting again for the first time," said I was her younger brother in a previous life. Another person here said I'm a rascal in this life and that is enough. *G*

skier< FRAML: Could they both be right? Or were you a rascal both times??

FRAML< skier: I think just a rascal in this chat room life.

Aradiaa< Does anyone else have the problem of typing these experiences into words? Seems I would have more to say on this subject, but find most of it very hard to put in type. Would be so much easier speaking, I think. This is real hard. I find this with most of the subjects we discuss here at SWC (in my style/way). The concepts just can't be put into sentences that make sense.

FRAML< Aradiaa: I've heard others make similar comments about hard to write it out, or seeing it actually written down.

Serena< (((((((Aradiaa))))))) Yes, sweety; me also, in a way. I am at the point where I find it MUCH easier and quicker to speak on the phone. LOL

Levita< Aradiaa: Sometimes, yes, that is the case.

skier< It's very hard to write out. I have an English degree -- comp and creative writing, not Lit -- and I find myself not making sense when I try to describe things, especially the NDE.

Levita< skier: Perhaps it is because some of the experience has no words or pictures you could paint to accurately encompass the event.

LEGS< Yopo: Your comment, that we may next incarnate as someone in a time that is now in our past time-wise, is interesting ... and in sync with the idea that time is layers around like an onion with it's layers and exists on the same plane simultaneously ... not in linear form as we keep records for statistics. *G*

Yopo< LEGS: Sorta fits in with the way modern physics views the cosmos. Time may be only a way of viewing.

Dreamz< LEGS: So very sweet ... love that!!

Yopo< LEGS: Yeah ... That's where I hit a dead end. Gathering experience and info for ... *LOL* My holiday gift-shopping dilemma ... what do you get for someone who has EVERYTHING? *LOL*

LEGS< Yopo ... hey ... that's a great definition of EXISTENCE. We are all parts and particles gathering experience and info for ... ???? Hey, mind boggling ... a meditation subject for sure.

Ben< Yopo, Willapa: I believe we incarnate and reincarnate because we want something that requires a physical body. Thus we are led (or driven) by our own earthly desires. I came to this thought myself, and then found it described very well in the Bhagavad Gita.

Willapa< Ben: Who is the "we" that would desire a physical body?

Ben< Willapa: Good question on my semantics! I meant "we souls" -- which I use in reference to both incarnate and discarnate spiritual entities.

Yopo< Ben: Turning that comment you made about wanting something that requires bodies over and over. Ironic. "Wanting" seems to be one of the main things we bring with us here. Wanting to get back where we came from, to name one.

Ben< Yopo: Yes, I think many of us (souls) are pulled in different directions (spiritually) by our incompatible desires. I think of the direction each soul is most likely to go as the vectoral sum of all that soul's desires.

FRAML< Levita: I hope I didn't shock you with my statement [about not believing in reincarnation], especially how I freely talk about it. I was once told by a friend that he had prayed to Jesus on the subject of reincarnation, and he got: "It is possible, but not preferable." Meaning that we can reincarnate if we choose, but that He gives us a way out of the reincarnation cycle. Also, I've always felt I was a "new soul" here.

Levita< FRAML: No, not shocked, just surprised. *S* Guess it is a subject we had not covered yet. As the saying goes, one cannot really know a thing until they experience it. And then, of course, it is compounded by the fact no two individuals will experience an identical situation the same way. I just thought it refreshing that you could dialogue so openly even though not believing in reincarnation ... a compliment to you. *S*

FRAML< Levita: Thank you.

skier< Possible but not preferable, huh? Interesting. But grace has to supersede karma, and grace is Christ's message.

FRAML< skier: Yes, that is where Grace comes in. And learning how to make our earthly desires of secondary concern to what is really important in our lives. To me it isn't "reading all the books I've bought, or visiting places, or people," but being that prodigal son who has finally gotten back home to the Light. And regarding people, I can still keep caring connections to them, because Caring Connections Can Stretch. (see story on Ben's page)

Levita< Willapa: For me, it would be choosing the vessel that gets the job done for the greater good of the whole. Think of packing for a trip and taking what you need for the trip. If you are going to Florida you aren't going to pack a parka. Make sense?

Willapa< Levita: Thank you for clarifying. I want to make sure I'm not presuming metaphysical realities that are unshared during discussion. So the soul then is the volition, that which chooses, the face before we had a face?

FRAML< Willapa: Think of those things that you do here on earth that you truly enjoy, and you can't imagine life after death without them: that is a link for you to reincarnate to this plane of existence. For some it is carnal lust, revenge, power, or helping others, or the belief that we "have to reincarnate".

Willapa< FRAML: I know there are things I enjoy because of having consciousness in time and space. My animal heritage makes my beard grow and my limbic system push primitive hormones coursing through my body. I crave, I desire, I lust, I fear. Yet my higher self, my spiritual self, KNOWS that true reality is in the everlasting and nurturing values and principles of love, truth, beauty and goodness. These values manifest themselves on this earthly plane in sincerity and service. Past lives are irrelevant to me.

FRAML< Willapa: I guess I'm looking toward to achieving a plane above this one.

Willapa< I fear that in trying to dis-attach ourselves from all desire, we fall victim to apathy. For me, spiritual growth and transcendence means turning lemons into lemonade, not losing the ability to feel thirsty.

Levita< Willapa: An excellent point.

Ben< Willapa: I agree that extinguishing all our desires isn't the way to go. I see that as removing all motivation and thus going nowhere at all. I believe there are some desires we should keep and amplify, and some desires we should release. That way, we modify the vector sum of our desires.

[Ben< For some examples of how we can change our desires (either what we want or how intensely we want something) see "Value-Judgments" in TOOLKIT.]

Aradiaa< Well, I guess it's time for me to be off now. Thanks again for this wonderful opportunity! I've found it quite enjoyable to be able to hear others experiences as well as share my own opinions and thoughts! Love, light and laughter to you all!!!

Ben< To all who have thanked me, you are most welcome! I thank you for your sane and enlightening discussions. Peace and blessings to each and all. Good night. *poof*

Yopo< Ben's "vector" is an interesting thought.

LEGS< Yopo: Please explain again the vector. I remember Ben discussed using that term in a seminar about reincarnation.

Levita< LEGS: *LOL* I was just going to post the same query to Yopo.

LEGS< Well, Levita, what they say about great minds thinking the same ... could it be that 'great minds' forget the same things, too? *smiling*

Levita< Yopo: I missed the seminar, so can't comment on vector idea ... but I once had an interesting dream not a dream.

Yopo< Levita: A dream not a dream?

Levita< Yopo: ahhh ... tell me about the vector thing first, and I will explain.

Yopo< LEGS: I don't want to misquote him or paraphrase badly, but he'd just said that he thought our "vector" or spiritual trajectory or whatever is the sum total of all the various ideas and desires and such that we bring with us into this life.

Levita< Yopo: Sounds like a solid thought to me.

LEGS< Yopo: Thanks ... I'm always thanking you. *s*

Ben< Yopo: *unpoof* Yes, we (souls) enter this life with a trajectory. And then we face innumerable choices in which we may continue that trajectory or modify it. Sometimes the modifications produce a dramatic change of spiritual direction in one lifetime.

Willapa< Ben: Thank you. Well spoken. Nice concept -- trajectory of disciplined desires -- requires will, openness, vision.

Ben< Okay, now I need some rest. Peace and blessings to each of you. Namaste. *poof*

Levita< Yopo: OK, the dream not a dream. I'll make it short, as it was a long dream and very detailed. The highlight was reading a passage in a book that was not written in English ... took 4 years to discover it was Hebrew ... but the long and short of it is: the passage I read explained why we are here, and I woke up knowing the answer and totally euphoric.

LEGS< ((((Levita)))) How wonderful!!!!!

Levita< LEGS: Yes, it was a tremendous experience.

Levita< I was sitting up in bed, just totally elated and overjoyed, ready to throw back the covers and run out in the street and start reminding everyone why we were here, and somehow whatever it was that I was going to say would wake them up and they would remember.

Levita< The overriding feeling was of when you feel stupid because the answer was staring you right in the face ... packing up your marbles and going home. But the first person I was going to tell was my hubby, and as soon as I started to shake him to wake him up, someone threw a switch ... one moment the information was there, and then wham! gone. I literally cried, I was so upset. And there you have it. But now I can remember the beauty of whatever it was ... the emotions, but not the facts.

Yopo< Levita: You dreamed of a passage written in a language you'd never known before? And understood it? Hmm ... That's certainly remarkable.

Levita< Yopo: Yes, in the dream I looked at this book and told the person that I couldn't read it as it wasn't in English, and they said look again, and all of a sudden I could read it. It was through what the writing looked like and how it was read that someone else identified it for me. It was read from right to left across both pages the same way the Torah is read ... something I had no prior knowledge of ... and that is the end of my tale. Just thought you might find it interesting, and decided to share it with you. *S*

CrystalGem< How very sad for you, Levita. I want to cry for you, too.

Levita< CrystalGem: At the time I was saddened, but not now. When the time is right, and it may be after I die (who knows?) I will know this again ... but the experience is very comforting if put into perspective ... and I am very patient, and can wait. *S*

CrystalGem< Good! I am glad, but the way you told it made me sad for you.

Levita< Crystal Gem: I was more upset because I couldn't share what I had known with others and therefore could not share the joy and elation that had come with it. But at least I can share the experience of it ... and in the sharing lift others' spirits ... I don't know. *S*

Yopo< Levita: *sigh* I've had moments of revelation like that, and then had it fade. They've come during times when my consciousness was altered in one way or another. Later, as my normal self, in my normal state, whatever it was, was too big to fit into the normal little me. Was just left with this sense that something very important had escaped me.

Levita< Yopo: Yes, but I think perhaps the fading is sometimes necessary ... don't know. In what I experienced there was no fading, just there and gone ... but the emotions and all other details are very vivid. To me, these things are a blessing whether we remember everything or not. *S*

Yopo< Levita: Oh, yes. Always a blessing, catching a little glimpse of the bigger, brighter reality ... knowing it is always there, even when we can't always see it.

Levita< Yopo: Yes, *S* these little blessings are like post-it notes stuck up here and there on our path so we don't forget our heading ... and they become as water for our thirst on our journey.

15. Past Life Regression
Session 2: Sat 16 Jan 1999

Ben< ALL: To review briefly: regression is a type of experience that many people have had, in which they seem to be re-living something that happened to them earlier in this life or in a past life. The onset of a regression experience can be spontaneous or intentionally sought by various techniques. Last week, we looked at spontaneous regression. Tonight I'll present a scenario in which regression is intentionally sought. It is an example of Regression Therapy.

Hakki808< Ben: I am sorry I did not attend your class last Saturday. Would you give a very brief definition about spontaneous regression? Can you compare with intentional regression?

[Ben< Hakki808: Spontaneous regression isn't deliberately induced; it happens unexpectedly. Intentional regression is deliberately induced.]

Ben< Regression Therapy starts with a problem in the present, searches for the cause of that problem in subconscious (this-life or past-life) memories, and then tries to resolve the cause of the problem. Regression therapy isn't easy to do by oneself because one is very likely to become immersed in the subjective experience.

Ben< Regression happens in an altered state of conscious, such as a dream or hypnosis or the half-state between waking and sleeping that many achieve by meditation. An altered state of consciousness with immediate regression can be induced by a technique called the "affects bridge" which I will illustrate in this scenario.

Ben< ALL: Now I'll post a three-paragraph scenario, and then the first question.

Ben< ALL: Suppose you feel a sharp pain in your chest whenever you watch a movie in which men are fighting with spears, and you don't feel that pain any other time. You think this pain may be a symptom of something that happened in a past life, so you go to a qualified regression therapist.

Ben< ALL: The therapist has you remember that pain in your chest, focus on it, get into it, re-experience it more and more fully. Just at the point when the remembered pain is so intense that you cry out in anguish, the therapist says, "Let that feeling take you back to another time, another place, when you felt the same way."

Ben< ALL: Pop! You are looking down at your hands gripping the haft of a spear that is buried in your chest. Blood is spurting everywhere. The man holding the spear jerks it out of your chest, and you watch your body fall to the ground. You are still standing on the battlefield, with your body at your feet. The physical pain is gone, but a different kind of pain remains: you are feeling terribly ashamed and angry that you have been defeated so easily by such a puny little enemy soldier.

Ben< QUESTION: Now step back and look at the result of this regression objectively rather than subjectively. What do you think this recently deceased soldier might want to do next? or want to continue to do? or want to do again? YOUR TURN

greyman< Depends on desires of deceased soldier.

FRAML< Get another chance to fight the guy and hopefully give him the business end of my spear.

Ben< greyman, FRAML: Yes. Others?

otterb< Recreate the scenario so that he wins the next time and can be proud and strong.

angelady< Finish feelings and confused thoughts.

Cassandra< Become a poet.

LadyV< Cassandra: I like that. (smiling)

Cheecowah< Find out what the time of battle is, then heal the wound, and then accept the fact that all of us have been warriors. *S*

Mars< Ben: Therefore, defeat in this life would also cause this person pain, and anguish, also the desire to not allow anyone to get close enough to hurt him again.

greyman< It may be true that you may have the power of choice after physical death.

Joi< Since I know quite a good deal about regression, he may want to be a soldier again to "prove" himself. It might not be very pleasant for the person who killed him that time, if they meet again. He may want to kill that person or at least beat him up well!

SLIDER< A soldier is trained to fight. I would expect that this soldier or any in this stage of combat would attempt to continue the fight unless the soldier realizes he is dead, and under these circumstances, I would say this soldier would be lost for a course of action.

Hakki808< Well, Ben, even his regression experience is subjective rather than objective in the therapy room.

Ben< Hakki808: Yes, it is subjective to the person, and I presented it subjectively in the scenario, but then I asked everyone here to shift point of view and look at it objectively.

CrystalGem< It still hurts in this life. I think it is unresolved pain.

5foot2< Possibly re-evaluate the reason for my participation in the battle, reflect that something I had so long and was so "big" to me (my life) could be gone in one second by the action of 'a puny little enemy'... rather ironic.

FRAML< So that is what Goliath thought! *G*

order< FRAML: (laughing very quietly)

LadyV< He gave his life because he was defeated? That would be a someone that would possibly lack self-esteem. He was suppose to win ... perhaps he thought ... add arrogance .

Sea-Goat< What if you already FORGIVE the person who did something to you in a past life, and you have nothing for them now but love and acceptance, but you're locked up in the same negative patterns that began with the original wound? Then, how do you deal with it, because it's not as simple as projecting it onto an "other".

Cheecowah< If we are to experience life, then why not to be killed and to kill? Do we all not need both to understand life?

SWIFT< I would say he may want to win another battle. It's symbolic/metaphoric at a spiritual level. He may jump into a body in the distant future and win this time, but a political battle, or a religious battle, or a battle with himself as in climbing the highest mountains in the world just to prove himself. As long as he doesn't feel defeated again in life, a lesson learned, other kinds of battles out there to win. The real battle is in the heart; it's the will to go on despite defeat and humiliation. That's the real battle in life.

SLIDER< SWIFT: Why not just experience the death for the sake of the experience and take the competition out of the whole experience?

SWIFT< SLIDER: Ben stated this past life experience caused a sense of something left undone, a sense of failure, just that a goal won like climbing a high mountain will balance this out, a sense of winning should also be experienced at some point, it may even come unexpected and heal some loss.

SLIDER< SWIFT: I was looking at it from a way to show closure. *S*

Ben< COMMENT: The therapist takes the person back through the death trauma again and again, and each time it is less traumatic. Then the therapist helps the person look for the emotional hooks that brought this trauma forward into another life. As the emotional hooks, unfinished business, etc., are surfaced and resolved, the presenting problem is healed, and often other problems associated with it are also resolved and their symptoms healed.

Hakki808< Ben: How about his relationship with his warrior energy? I wonder if he is still afraid of defending himself for his life because he was wounded badly and rather miserably in the ancient battlefield. How about focusing on his present issues of warrior energy in the context of his current life?

SWIFT< A good therapy in his case may be to excel at something in this life. Also there is the lesson that people really try to fight death and loose eventually. Even the big C is a battle. He should look around him and accept the battle is lost in many harrowing, heart breaking ways in life, but there is always another life, people live to fight again, the battle goes on.

Mars< Ben: I found throughout my experiences, that the act of a spear in the chest could show up in this life as health problems in the chest, or a mark, mole, or indentation of some kind in the chest area. Have you seen any of this?

Ben< Mars: Yes, I have. In fact, I had some remnants of ancient wounds I had brought forward because I had labeled them "honorable" scars.

windchild< If you forgave someone, would you be caught up in the original wound?

LadyV< windchild: You are wise.

Sea-Goat< windchild: Maybe ... there's lots of fog on the emotional plane.

Ben< COMMENT: Last week, Dreamworld asked, "Is it possible to meet someone and instantly know that both of you had been in Atlantis together?" FRAML replied, "Probably not, but I've had the experience of 'meeting an old friend for the first time.' That is for later in this series." The next question will address one example of such a situation.

Sea-Goat< I think that would require one to already have a sense of what Atlantis is or was like. Must be a reference point from which to recognize the energy, no matter if it's found in a person or thing or just a daydream.

Ben< QUESTION: Suppose the one who died had promised his sweetheart, just before he left for the battle: "I will return. I will come back to you. Wait for me." How might this vow effect him after he died? How might it effect her? How might it effect their future lives? YOUR TURN

Cheecowah< I agree, I have that problem. We are together in this life, but the love and trust is not as full as it should be. So that does cause problems.

Amazaz< I suppose, subconsciously, the person who made the promise would still try to fulfill it -- although he doesn't have to -- and the person to whom the promise was made might have a longing for something to happen, to be "fulfilled" and not know what or by whom?

Ben< Amazaz: Yes. The one who made the promise might try to fulfill it by going back to his sweetheart as a ghost. She might or might not feel his presence. That sort of thing happens a lot.

FRAML< His ghost may return to his home looking for his wife, or the wife may die and remain at the home waiting for her husband to return from the war. Also, it could be a case of the person looking for his wife in the future by deciding to reincarnate. Sort of like the guy I had attached to me was looking for his lost love, but was doing it by attachment rather than reincarnation.

greyman< She may very well get a visit from her deceased sweetheart.

angelady< Like something is missing ... a searching and longing for a familiar feeling that is almost an obsession.

otterb< I think their spirits would keep reuniting and recreating this scenario, maybe on an unconscious level, until at least one of them evolved to a different spiritual level of being and let go.

LadyV< otterb: I agree with you.

Joi< I feel both of them will be seeking each other out in future lives. I hate winter from a lifetime I went out to hunt, and when I got back my wife had died on me.

order< I think promises/vows are binding and will and must be kept in one time or another, especially if heart is truthful ... honor-able ... when the vow is made.

SLIDER< I would expect a vow of return from war or battle could leave emotional scars on both parties, thus the need for a remembering of why there is an unestablished feeling of guilt in someone's life = need for past life regression.

Yopo< Hmm ... Maybe each would carry a sense of unfinished business, of expectation. But that could lead to about anything. Maybe much unhappiness, if they didn't meet for a long while. I have no idea how much control we might have over our course into future lives.

Cheecowah< How does the soldier and the wife stop repeating the life times? How can they stop killing each other on some level or another?

[Ben< Cheecowah: Well asked! The basic purpose of past-life therapy is to find the specific answers that actually resolve such questions in specific cases.]

Hakki808< Definitely, this client has a problem about his unfinished issue about returning to his girlfriend. I would not encourage him to find her for the rest of his life. It sounds very romantic, like a novel; but in the real life, he would start chasing every past-life lover for the rest of this life. I feel he may waste this life for his obsessive desire. I feel it is very unproductive about finding the past-life lover for the rest of his life.

FRAML< Hakki808: Good point. I've seen numerous people in here who have been trying to find their lost wife/husband.

Yopo< We usually can't even predict the course of a relationship over ONE lifetime. *S*

Joi< Yopo: AMEN to that!

Nighthawk< Very well said, Yopo! *S*

Hakki808< I would ask him to come back to his girlfriend in that past life. I would encourage him to finish his unfinished business in that past time line. I would not encourage him to look for his lost sweetheart. I believe the past life therapist should encourage their clients to finish their business in the context of their past time lines rather than in their present lives.

angelady< A time to grieve, bless, and get on with the present life.

Amazaz< Ben: The problem I have, though, is with most people believing that all "past" relationships are here to test us and make us either "damned" (= bad karma) or to "save" our souls. I have come to see these plays among souls as a flow, a path of growth for everyone involved, and I believe that if one is NOW (= current lifetime) aware of "karma" in general, and has a basic love and sense of understanding of the human heart, then there is NO reason to fear "past" karma. It is always intent that matters. I do not know if I am being clear, but what I am trying to say is that I am no longer afraid of having or not having, possibly, been a "monster" in some past life, because NOW I am aware; NOW I abhor violence (physical, mental, emotional, and on the psychic level), and I never intentionally move to "hurt" another. Somehow, this gives me a sense of peace, and of having already "paid" my heaviest karma. Also, I do not believe time is linear, so I believe that if NOW you realize you are loving/ed, then you ARE FREE, forever! :)

[Ben< Amazaz: Yes, there is such a thing as good karma, although it isn't talked about as often as bad karma. What a soul did (or was) is no longer relevant after that soul has changed its basic desires and thus its spiritual direction. One may be tempted to revert, but it isn't likely once one is established on the upward way.]

windchild< Your "Point of Power" is NOW. (to quote Seth)

Amazaz< windchild: WOW! Seth said that? :)

windchild< Yes, Amazaz. Actually, "Your point of power is the present."

Amazaz< ((((windchild)))) Thank you for sharing that with me; it kind of gives new power to my own beliefs ... to myself! :)

windchild< Amazaz: You are so welcome

Ben< ALL: Good observations and comments. Thanks. The best therapeutic approach to this "lost lover" situation I know of tries to change the relationship from lover to friend. Love of that kind is binding: genuine friendship is freeing for both parties.

order< Ben: Shall all men and women then not make promises to one another of any kind? *S

Cheecowah< Good idea, Ben. Maybe we should stop the Marriage and just be good friends?

Sea-Goat< Cheecowah: What of sex? (just asking!)

FRAML< order & Cheecowah: I think this is where "Caring connections can stretch" comes in.

order< FRAML: Need more input to understand your meaning. *S

FRAML< order: Read the paper "caring connections can stretch" on Ben's site. That we establish a love for our mate that is above physical and filial, almost agape. And that we are linked by that. It will pull our souls together after death.

order< FRAML: Ahhh, I understand your meaning now. *S

Ben< order, Cheecowah: Traditional wedding vows in many societies are "until death do us part." However, even in a strongly-bonded relationship, the urgency can (and I think, should) mature into a settled relationship that transcends time and space.

Cheecowah< Ben: I am pagan. It has never been or will never be 'till death do us part. It has been forever bond. But this life time is not as (lets say) perfect.

Ben< Cheecowah: Yes, I know. Not all peoples limit their marriage vows to this life. And not all individuals are bound by their own vows, in this life or hereafter. So the outcomes of all this are varied, by societies and by individuals.

order< Ben: True ... yet every one who truly loves another ... who is married and spends time, a life, with this other, usually makes a verbal heartfelt commitment that spans time and space?? *S*

Ben< order: Hopefully, so. *smile* In my opinion, the best of outcomes is when they rise together into the Light.

angelady< Ben: I like that.

order< Ben: Yes, I agree, to begin with God and grow in Light of God and end this life together in God is the greatest HOPE of two who join their hearts as one. *S

CrystalGem< That was fine in those days, but the divorce rate is 48% now. Where does that leave us?

Valkyrie< I think the divorce rate is so high because things are changing so fast ... people are learning their life lessons so fast that people are tying up loose ends from other incarnations.

order< Valkyrie: Have met many, many divorced people ... most have not tied up any loose ends ... they have made more tears instead ... that will have to be healed or tied up later.

kola< Valkyrie: I think the divorce rate is so high because of a lack of personal responsibility. When we stop expecting "things/people" outside of ourselves to make us happy, then we assume personal responsibility for our healing, growth and development.

Amazaz< order: I am in the process of divorcing, and I do not think I should be made to feel "guilty" or later accountable for ... what? ... having realized that my relationship with my ex has changed form? I am just the one who, after 15 years, said it first. We had been "over" at least two years before. It is not pleasant, but who says the relationship has to die? We are very good friends, and family always, and that is enough. :)

FRAML< Let's lay aside divorce for now. And wait for another time.

Valkyrie< I don't know about divorce. I myself see it as a last resort. I did my playing before I got married and am very serious about being married. But a lot of people get married for the wrong reasons, some get married just for the party and the dress and the honeymoon.

order< kola: I think divorce rates are so high because the 'us' consciousness is often missing ... two working together in God/Spirit for something they both feel is more than they are each by themselves.

order< Amazaz: Was speaking generally, using the word 'most' and not 'all'. I am merely speaking from what I have experienced, not making any personal judgments. *Hugs*

Amazaz< order: Thank you :) as I really did try for years to avoid the split, but it was inevitable ... there are many different cases out there! *hugs*

order< Amazaz **Heart-felt-Hugs**

Joi< Ben: One thing I see here is people speaking from a higher level. I sense the person still suffering hasn't resolved the death, let alone the romantic part!!

order< Am thinking perhaps the heart/soul was already bound/knit to the other heart/soul, and that the words which were spoken and expressed was not the 'binding' in itself.

angelady< You may end promises, but desire and intensity of feelings would still be present.

Ben< QUESTION: Suppose the one who died really believed in the cause he was fighting for. He loved his country and hated its enemies. If he took those attitudes and deep feelings with him, how might they influence him? YOUR TURN

order< Obviously a sense of letting his country down... ?

otterb< He would bring that same energy into his successive lives and keep attracting those same kind of energies or situations into his present dealings unless he is consciously made aware of his choices and why he is making them.

windchild< I agree with otterb.

LadyV< otterb: Again I agree with you. If he does not, then he becomes not only a problem to himself but to others as well.

windchild< LadyV: People can only "Give you problems" if you allow it. No one has the power to harm you, unless you give them the power to do so.

LadyV< windchild: True. Perhaps one of the lessons the man has to learn is just that.

Joan< He could return to his country in other lives. I wonder if he might also return as a citizen of the "enemy" country.

greyman< Joan: I used to have nightmares of living in a communist country. I do not think I could survive very long.

Joan< greyman: I think the fear of living in a communist country is a fairly common American fear. After I went to Russia, I was so excited, telling people about it, but I learned quickly to shut up. People feared Russia, and thought I must be a spy -- especially vets! But if you incarnated there, you might not *remember* America.

LadyV< Ben: Excuse me: Are you saying subjective attitudes?

[Ben< LadyV: Yes, his subjective attitudes just as he died; his self-identification as being wholeheartedly aligned with his own people and against their enemies.]

FRAML< Ben: Could this also result in the person coming back and re-fighting the battle over and over through various reincarnations? Thus a blood feud is kept going over the centuries?

[Ben< FRAML: Yes.]

SWIFT< Experience in life is full of ups and downs, but looking at the broader spectrum of multiple incarnations, I believe things iron out. The sea from a distance looks calmer. Life is all about experiences both good and bad. I welcome all. This is a rare frame of mind, but it works when one tells one's self it's the way it is. The collective incarnational soul-bubble is something else. I believe each incarnation goes on after death to be fully integrated with and as part of the higher self, which the following incarnation (a baby of the higher self collective) in the relative time line can contact and integrate with now whilst in physical body, not just through death.

FRAML< SWIFT: What if folks aren't interested in "progressing" but wanting revenge for being killed, for having their families killed by the enemy? e.g., Northern Ireland, Bosnia, Middle East, various places in Africa such as Rwanda.

SLIDER< I would think that this soldier would try to continue his fight for what he believed in, and in doing so might be persuaded from other than honest entities in ways to find a means to complete his task. Hopefully some proper guidance from the other side would show him the light and the right way.

Ben< ALL: Do you think this soldier would want to be reborn in the country or society of his enemies? Or would he want to be reborn among his own people?

Cheecowah< Ben: I believe what we hate, we are. If you hated to be black, then you will be born black, etc., for example. I have found this to be true through my work.

Yopo< The more I think about this, the more unsure I become. Would one take allegiance to a tribe or flag, or just a propensity for allegiance? There might be strange ironies. A patriot of one tribe or nation, born later as a patriot in the camp of his former enemies. I think I lack enough background in all this to speculate.

Ben< Yopo: If he really loves his people and hates their enemies, that love and that hate are very likely to set his trajectory for another life.

Doucia< Maybe his soul would have him be reborn among the society of his "enemies" ... to live the "other" side.

LadyV< I agree with Doucia ... one has to walk in the shoes of the other to fully understand ... and it is a hard lesson.

Yopo< *S* There seems to be some parallel thinking goin' on here tonight.

windchild< I agree, Yopo.

FRAML< Doucia, Yopo: I think that I would want to be born again to my own tribe. Remember that we are talking about battles that occurred hundreds or thousands of years ago, before the 20th century notion that "we are one world".

angelady< When I ask to see things differently, this happens: the coin flips.

Joi< It depends on what his "soul" feels he needs to learn the next time. If changing sides is to expand his soul, then he would change sides.

Hakki808< Well, I believe he is carrying his vows and promises from ancient battles. It can be a problem. He may be projecting his unconscious hate toward others when his unconscious projections are triggered anytime.

Ben< Hakki808: Yes.

otterb< Spirit is a paradox and most likely he would want to be among his people but what more than likely would happen is he would create the same scenario wherever he went (with his enemies or people). It isn't the material anymore, it is the energy of the situation that is attracted to him and he to it. The cause, the lost love, the betrayal, etc.

SLIDER< It would depend on the soldier's understanding of the experience he has just completed. If he harbors hate for the enemy, he could be born to them to cause chaos, or be born to friends to still further his fight. If born with understanding, he could be born an enemy to bring peace to that people, or born to his own people to bring the same.

angelady< Lessons are important, if it was a way to get the lesson; the universe is a stage in some ways.

Yopo< Ben: I don't want to lead us into a digression at this point, but I'm unclear on specifically WHAT we might carry for one life to the next. Personality traits and tendencies, issues in a general sort of form? Or detailed unconscious memories, and a desire to pick up where we left off in a very specific sort of context? Maybe you could say something about that after the first hour.

Ben< Yopo: Basically we carry forward desires (what we love, want, want to do, unfinished business, etc).

Ben< QUESTION: Now suppose the country he loved and fought for was Philistia, and his enemies were the Israelites. Or vice-versa. Would this help to explain some of the things we see happening in this world today? Can you think of similar examples? YOUR TURN

windchild< I don't think it has anything to do with location. The battle is within himself.

SWIFT< Well, Ben, he may be the kind of soul that stays loyal to the national group soul, which can be seen as an all-encompassing sovereign being. Each tribe or nation has one. He may well be in the bigger picture seen as an integral part of that bigger monadic being with a mission of some kind. He would be venerated and seen as special by the collective national being, a right arm of a kind, he would be very attached, a connection that may go back in time to the origin of the nation, and he would have great national pride as a reflection of love and devotion for the larger collective being.

LadyV< I don't see this person as a leader myself ... and if he were, he would be a tyrant most likely.

FRAML< I'd wanta whup that Samson's behind for killing me with the jawbone. If I can't get him then, perhaps I can get his grandson, or 100 x great grandson with my AK-47 as I depart the Gaza strip and raid a Kibbutz. (Philistia was called Palestine by the Romans.)

Hakki808< Ben: I believe therapists will encourage him to disavow his promises and vows he had made during past lives. I believe the past is the past, the present is the present. If he is carrying away his ancient vows and promises, he cannot live in his current life time. He is still living the past. He has to release ancient vows and promises, and he can be free from the past life burdens. He will be able to be free as who he is, as his present identification on his current life and current mission he is assigned for his present life.

[Ben< Hakki808: Yes. That is the therapy aspect of past life therapy. Therapeutic intervention is the main way past life therapy differs from past life exploration.]

order< Hakki808: I think this might be impossible if the soul consciousness thought it important enough to carry into a future lifetime in the earth. This is very deep, not likely to be something that one can just be talked out of for $100 an hour. *S

Hakki808< order: Yes and no. He will be aware about his past life. He can make his decision about what is really important for him, to make his personal decision about whether he is going to live in love and hate or whether he is going to make a better relationship with those whom he had considered as enemies. I believe if we are going to establish our peace, we have to make very hard choices. His choice to make peace with enemies can be considered as betrayal to his own tribal people. He may know he may be assassinated by his own people. I believe making peace with enemies will face all of us to make hard choices in certain warfare situations. But each of us has to take a hard choice for peace. That may be his mission in his present life.

order< Hakki808: Thanks! *VBS*

FRAML< Hakki808: And what if he doesn't have access to therapists, or even believes in reincarnation?

Hakki808< Well, that can be a problem. That is a very good question. I have no problem about his belief about no reincarnation. It is a tough love approach to him. He does not go to see any therapist at all. It is his choice. I can not make him go. He has made his choice of carrying his loyalty toward his tribe and his hate toward his enemies. It is a matter of his choice to live the past. I can not make any choice for him at all. He has to make his own choice for how he is going to live in his present life, too.

Ben< Hakki808: Yes, I agree. However, the whole concept of past life therapy is relatively new. Some human souls have been recycling for millennia without it.

Cheecowah< Ben: I have and have others to do past life regressions since 1974. It is just recently that it is talked about. *S*

Joi< Ben: What did you mean, what you said to Hakki?

[Ben< Joi: I said some human souls have been recycling for millennia without any therapeutic intervention, because I have regressed people to their past lives in stone-age caves. One woman re-lived the experience of hiding and watching a pair of "big ones". I brought her part way out of the altered state of consciousness and asked her what the "big ones" were. With access to her present vocabulary, she said they were mammoths and described them in detail with awe in her voice. She also was astonished by how absolutely clear the air was. No, the mammoths didn't kill her. She was killed when a rock fell from the roof of her family's cave.]

Yopo< I think most group antagonisms are culturally transmitted. Adopt a Jewish child and a Palestinian child, or a Moslem child and a Hindu child, bring 'em up together in a loving household, and they'll love each other like brothers and sisters.

5foot2< Yopo: I like to think it is cultural, too. I also like to think that at death there is clarity to the big picture, and the truths are much greater than a flag or a single ideal. If ideal is true, it might just have been the presentation. So sure, try it again, and similar situations will be presented. The CHOICE and challenge of the individual is to remember to stay to the true path or repeat the past.

Ben< Yopo: Yes, group loyalties and hostilities are culturally transmitted. I find they are also karmically retained unless modified. That's one reason why not remembering past lives can be a blessing: it at least potentially gives us a fresh start.

SLIDER< If this soldier had faith in the creator and understood the implication of his actions, I feel the outcome of a reincarnation would be far different from the life he previously left.

Valkyrie< My personal belief about reincarnation is that we get to close wounds that we have made or be victimized until we release the pain. We must not avoid the pain, or anesthetize it.

Ben< SUMMARY: The reasons why souls reincarnate are more emotional than rational. We (souls) enter this life seeking something we want, or want to do, or do again. And then we face innumerable choices in which we may continue that trajectory or modify it. Sometimes the modifications produce a dramatic change of spiritual direction in one lifetime. But in many cases, the trajectory of a soul continues, unmodified, lifetime after lifetime, because the soul still wants to do again what it did before -- or something it did not finish before.

Ben< /topic Discussion of Past Life Regression

Yopo< Hmm ... Think maybe I see. Sort of a current on top, running directly from the experiences of the culture we are born into and from our own current-life experiences. A genetic current, having to do with the experiences of our bodily forebears. And another current underneath both, having to do with the course of our soul or spirit or whatever, as it moves through incarnations. *LOL* No wonder I'm confused.

5foot2< Yopo: Ohhh, I like that. *smile*

FRAML< Yopo: Nicely said. You have revealed that the why's behind reincarnation and whether or not we learn from a previous life are more complicated than many wish to believe. Also the "veil of forgetfulness" keeps us from remembering the bad along with the good, to include our theories.

Ben< Yopo: I believe our heritage is physical and cultural and karmic. For example, some kids simply go their own way no matter how their parents try to enculturate them.

order< I think culture and environment are somewhat of a mirror of soul's growth and ideal of relationship with the Whole ... that which he embraces and that which he rejects in this plane ... reflective of the soul's inner truth.

Valkyrie< I think that there are some things that we do know, or some things we do that are easy for us.

SWIFT< I see it this way: a group soul, national soul in the collective sense, is GOD's manifest diversity. If every one was the same, then life would be dull and boring. There are many differences with cultures and colors of all sorts, so an individual soul does have the opportunity to try new life experiences in other cultures and countries so as to evolve. But how does one retain the diversity that is needed on the grander scale? This is done through war, boundaries, holding on to ones differences, beliefs and individuality as a nation, fighting for the tribe one finds ones self in. This I believe is a spiritual truth, one that enables there to be diversity in culture, religion, food, music, art and style, so that each soul through this macrocosmic difference can have many experiences in each incarnation at a microscopic level. Ain't GOD wonderful in GOD's diversity and originality?

order< Ben: When you use the word "emotional" how would you define it? *S

Ben< order: I look at emotions as feelings rather than concepts, reactions rather than intentions.

Joyboy< Ben: I would describe emotions as "out of the now" and feelings to be of the "now". Very different.

order< Ben: I think of emotions as habitual patterns of thought ... desire. Feelings are very different and more spontaneous and free? *S

Ben< Joyboy, order: In any case, emotions are reactions, not actions.

order< Ben: Yes, reactions. *VBS*

Joyboy< Ben: I would agree with you on that, emotions are reactions to beliefs, patterns and thought forms.

otterb< Ben: And when do we get the message that if it's not working, to change it? Is it when we become conscious of it that we have the choice, or do we go through life with these "knee jerk" reactions forever?

windchild< otterb: I think when you finally realize that your reality is your own creation, then you know you can make whatever changes you think you need.

Ben< otterb: Again, individual experience varies. A soul may decide to change its desires after a life it did not like, or a soul may accept a new set of values in a new life. Many do adopt what their parents or others have tried to teach them. So, spiritual change is possible, but it isn't necessarily automatic.

LadyV< Ben: thank you.

otterb< Ben: Is there a way to anchor in at a subconscious level a way to tell the person that this is from the past, to increase their awareness and handle these situations in the future in a proactive way instead of reactive?

Ben< otterb: I know two thought-tools that can be anchored in one's subconscious so they tend to pop up when needed: "Be here now" and "That was then, this is now."

SLIDER< Ben: I like those two thoughts!!!!

otterb< "be here now" and "that was then, this is now". Very powerful. Thanks, Ben. The Inca would say 'Ahora O Nunca' -- it's now or never.

Ben< otterb: The Inca wouldn't have said "ahora o nunca" before the Spanish arrived. *smile* As a thought-tool, "It's now or never" is a stimulus for immediate action.

SLIDER< We have to accept that our thoughts and actions dictate what we perceive as our own personal reality. As so many have said, live now and don't harbor revenge, hate, deceit, etc. Learn to forgive, starting with self, accept what we can't change, live and let live. If all your neighbors are putts'es then move or become a putts. This life is so short in the big picture that most people find it's over before they get started.

windchild< You are right, SLIDER. So enjoy life now!

LadyV< SLIDER: I am clapping my hands. I like what you said ... get out of the tunnel vision into the way it is.

otterb< I realize my reality is my own creation and take full responsibility for it, but things happen, as Ben said about the pain in the chest. I am sitting here with a broken leg, and when it happened I knew it was from the past and I was reluctant to tell a friend of mine about it because I had a memory of her being involved in that past situation. So this came just out of the blue, walking down the sidewalk and hearing a warning bird call. Down I went on the ice. Now what are my choices?

[Ben< otterb: One potentially therapeutic choice would be to say to oneself, "Well, Okay, that's done. Case closed." Draw a mental line across one's track, and then look forward again.]

Ben< ALL: Okay. Again, I apologize for not being able to respond to everyone as I would like to. I have one other comment to post tonight, and then I'm open for dialogue -- within the limits of my slow typing. *S*

SWIFT< I personally believe each nation on Earth becomes a spiritual world that may even be in many ways bigger than this planet through time. As the loyal collective group soul, each one who dies is taken away to their vast cultural spirit world that grew from a nation here.

Ben< SWIFT: Various religions and ideologies also form their own spirit worlds. Some of those spirit worlds are in the upper astral, some are in the mid-astral twilight, and some are in the lower astral.

SWIFT< Ben: Earlier I did mention religion as being part of a national identity, as Christianity did receive some covering blessing in Europe. In return they got military protection. Bishops are found next to kings and queens on a chess board, also shamans have much say (as you showed in the last seminar) with military and many other tribal affairs, so physically they are very much linked, but yes, I see your point that they (religions and ideologies, political or other) at a spiritual level form their own individual worlds of collective like-minded souls, being within the astral realms in the same way. Good point.

Ben< COMMENT: In some cases "recovered memories" are not memories at all, but fantasies created by suggestion. Just as a hypnotized subject can be led to believe that he or she is a chicken, repeated suggestion can create a false memory; for example, of having been abused as a child. Several recent cases of such brain-washing have given "recovered memories" a bad reputation. Ironically, it often takes a well-trained regression therapist to help the person remember that a "recovered memory" didn't actually happen; someone kept suggesting that it did.

order< Ben: Excellent piece of information to bring up! *VBS

SLIDER< Ben: That comment should be published in a national newspaper!

Joi< Ben: Wouldn't that just be the case of "wishy-washy" type people? Remember, no one can make us do anything unless we want to, even under hypnosis!

Ben< Joi: It isn't true that no one can make anyone do anything they don't want to under hypnosis. I demonstrated the falsity of that assertion before a room-full of psychologists (the whole department of psychology) in 1954.

Joi< I believe the "conscious mind" could object, but it is obvious the soul does not, or I don't think they would have done it. Sometimes some people have a soul with a sense of humor, and do let the person do something "funny" that their conscious mind would not do, but I still don't believe you could get someone to rob or kill, if it weren't a part of their soul's nature!

Hakki808< I believe all therapists should be responsible for their belief systems and projections. If they have not resolved their personal issues, they may have projected their own issues to their clients. Clients take them on in the unconscious way. The recovered memories can be fantasies which have been established by both a therapist and a client, too.

Yopo< Ah ... There's even a term for that. For false memories that seem real. *LOL* Unfortunately I can't remember it ... Got a book here ... Cryptomnesia? Think that's it. Anyway, it sometimes originates in dreams, or fantasy events, or suggested events, which emerge later into waking consciousness in a form indistinguishable from actual memories. We believe the events actually occurred.

Valkyrie< Yopo: I'm glad that you had such a nice childhood that you didn't have to deal with people in your pants.

Yopo< Valkyrie: I did have a happy childhood. Know how lucky I was. Unfortunately, I often see folks who weren't so lucky. *sigh*

Valkyrie< I have recovered memories, and it is sheer hell, where I've been alone with the pain, where your friend is depression for months on end, without a therapist's 'help'.

order< Wondering how many are now serving sentences because of accusations based on these subjective memories? How many lives have been hurt or destroyed by these ... remembered fantasies? *S

Valkyrie< Fantasies don't make you want to commit suicide. Many times, a counselor just asks you what do you want to talk about, the ones I've been to, no leading statements or other b*******.

order< Valkyrie: What do you suppose they ask a child who has had one parent accused of abusing her by the other? I am thinking they don't just ask "What would you like to talk about?" *S

Valkyrie< Please don't smile at me. You're smirking your self-righteous face, trying to trap me. The cops ask the child what happened. They give the child a rape exam with the parent present. ... I mean, the doctors do the exams on the child as part of the information gathering process.

order< Am also wondering how a very small child differentiates from what it sees and experiences with no wall up, through TV and movies, and reality? *S

Valkyrie< order: Why don't you go to a counselor and find out for yourself?

order< Valkyrie: What if the parent is accused only of excessive spanking? *S

Valkyrie< Then, the authorities come out and recommend family therapy.

order< Valkyrie: I had no idea these questions would be taken personally by you. Thought we all were discussing real/imagined or suggested memories. My apologies.

Valkyrie< order: Thank you for your apology. I think you've accepted the common armchair analogy for those people who had insurance and the therapist just wanted to use their clients for their own profit, and just lead these people on, tapping into the primal parent/child separation drama.

order< Valkyrie: No ... I was asking from something I witnessed ... knowing the child had NEVER been spanked and yet [the father] was accused by [his] spouse of abusiveness when getting a divorce. The child 'remembered' being abused ... after spending time with a psychologist. Not to worry, it turned out fine. He ended up with custody of the child ... no thanks to the psychologist expert opinion. *S

Valkyrie< order: I am familiar with the case studies of Wasco children and those psychologists who through questioning the children and the child's desire to please the psychologist, agreed with them. I was an adult when all this stuff came out.

order< Valkyrie: Again am not directing this at you; I'm speaking about a very real and often frightening situation. *S

LadyV< Valkyrie: May I ask what is your profession? I do not recall hearing you say ... and if you did I have forgotten.

Valkyrie< Lady V: Is it really relevant to the conversation?

LadyV< Valkyrie: If you prefer not to tell me, that's fine. I was interested in you as a person ... that is why I asked. As you wish, Valkyrie.

Valkyrie< I'm sorry, LadyV. Earlier we were talking about psychologists and stuff like that. I work with people with developmental disabilities. I have done some psychic stuff on the side, plus other jobs, along the way.

LadyV< Valkyrie: That takes much education and training to do work like that ... good for you!!!

Valkyrie< Ben: What would you say to someone who remembers multiple past lives?

[Ben< Valkyrie: I would suggest starting with a present problem that appears in several past lives, and trying to resolve it in the context of the life when it first appeared.]

smila< Does anyone know, is there someone to help us resolve issues on the other side?

[Ben< smila: Yes, there are souls who help souls resolve issues on the other side. However, the quality of guidance varies with the various astral levels. For example, lower astral beings are typically less truthful, and higher astral beings are typically more truthful than the average earth-plane being. So, in terms of the quality of guidance, the old "rule of thumb" applies: "the higher, the better."]

Joyboy< Ben: There is something that you may not have touched on or may not be aware of: each person has an average of 8 - 12 filtered realities and each of them have experiences for ONE lifetime; therefore it is very possible that a person could have chosen to experience child abuse in one reality and not in the other, both being just as real as the other.

[Ben< Joyboy: Yes, I've heard of it. What you refer to as "filtered realities" is a type of materialization that is also called duplication or multiplication -- as Jesus is reported to have multiplied 5 loaves of bread and 2 fish so as to feed 5000 people, with 12 baskets of bread and fish left over. However, it isn't relevant to the topic of this discussion, because past life regression deals with the memories of a soul regardless of how many physical bodies are involved.]

[Ben< The following conversation is relevant because past life regression so often reveals attached discarnate entities and thus the need for spirit releasement.]

FRAML< ALL: Notice the common thread here is some event that is so important to the individual that it causes them to want to return to this plane of existence. That reincarnation is preferable to escaping that cycle and attachments to this plane and their soul rising to the Light.

angelady< FRAML: Perhaps it is necessary to bring us closer to the Light (my opinion).

SWIFT< FRAML: After life and through death, and life after death on the other side, a soul learns that the world's a stage, life is an act, one is truly immortal, nothing can hurt or harm the soul from external source, only the soul can really hurt it's self emotionally. Looking from a window in the after life at this material world I am sure souls eventually see the funny side, and also the truth that all are one.

windchild< FRAML: You sound as if you think the earth-plane is a second rate state of being. I think it can be a wonderful experience, filled with, joy, love, beauty, etc.. (Just a little observation)

FRAML< windchild: I see myself as a prodigal child of God who is striving to get home to him. Living on this plane is nice for physical fun, but my soul does not want to stay here. It wants to return to the Light and serve God there. Perhaps on an angel rescue team, bringing lost souls who are floating around as ghosts and guides back up to the Light. (aka heaven)

windchild< FRAML: Can you live in the light and serve God on this plane?

FRAML< windchild: Yes. During soul rescues which I've participated in by linking to God and asking teams of angels to be sent to a person to remove a discarnate (ghost) from them, and taking them back to the Light, where sometimes they have a loved one waiting for them. Thus the angels and as-angels (apprentice angels) depart the Light, come to this world, get a discarnate soul and take him or her back up to the light. Also see "Some good Catholic Ghosts" on my web page.

5foot2< FRAML: Somehow, my friend, I picture you as a big burly angel helping lost souls here on earth. Pretty good assignment, and you do it so well. *smile*

FRAML< 5foot2: Thank you. *VBS*

windchild< Soul rescues. WOW, FRAML, that is amazing. I never heard of that before. I've heard about guides, angels, etc., helping the deceased, but never soul rescues.

FRAML< windchild: Soul rescue or spiritual detachment is the flip side of exorcism. Instead of treating all attachees/demons as needing to be cast back into the dark, one works to rescue them and get them up to the Light. It is interesting that Angels will not help in casting souls down into the Dark, but will rescue them and take them up to the Light. Ben has several papers on this topic on his website.

Valkyrie< FRAML: You're one of the few who believe in removing discarnate spirits from people's consciousness.

FRAML< Valkyrie: Yes. Usually doing it because they are causing harm to folks who are seeking help. See the account of 3 discarnates I had with me (on my 2nd web-page): Shawnee Warrior, Sgt. Odom, and the Irishman.

windchild< I understand the Light, FRAML, but this "Dark" ? Do you mean the lower astrals?

FRAML< windchild: Yes. Lower astrals below the earth plane. Opposite of the upper astral (Light). Ben has an illustration on his website.

windchild< Thank you, FRAML. I'll check out those sites.

Yopo< Ben: What was the [hypnosis] demonstration?

Ben< Yopo: That demonstration is a rather long story, but basically, I created a false scenario in the mind of a hypnotized person. The person reacted to that scenario, and if there had been a pistol next to the couch, would certainly have killed that person's favorite professor. The professor (and all of them) got the point, and put me on their mailing list for everything having to do with hypnosis. By the way, they were equally impressed with the way I brought the person out of hypnosis. At that time, standard procedure was to induce post-hypnotic amnesia: "You will not remember anything that happened here." I had decided on my own that was a stupid way to make more work for psychiatrists somewhere down the road, so I made sure the person remembered *everything* that happened, and especially that the scenario was *not* something that really happened, but merely something I had suggested.

Yopo< Ben: You're certainly right about that making trouble down the road. My father might serve as a prime example. He was a bomber pilot who had an extremely traumatic event involving a close friend's death. The main issue at the time was to "keep 'em flying" so the AAF psychiatrist treated him with a series of sodium pentathol injections, accompanied by repeated suggestions that he would forget the entire event. He did, until years after the war ended. Then he started having nightmares, waking up screaming, repeating the event. Finally took a couple of sessions with a psychiatrist 40 years later to uncover what had happened.

Ben< Yopo: My sympathy for your father. And a lot of the modern "post-trauma stress syndrome" comes from the repression or burying of painful memories.

Yopo< Ben: Yep. I had a rather revealing example of that myself a few years back, when I compared my own memories with those of a Viet Nam buddy I hadn't talked to for about 20 years. Apparently we ALL block certain things out. Must be some sort of hard-wired psychological defense mechanism.

[Ben< Yopo: I quit using hypnosis in 1969 after I gave a demonstration at Ohio State University. What happened was this: I said to the hypnotized person "Your right arm is getting lighter" and it slowly moved upward. Then I said "Your arm is getting heavier" but it didn't move down. I increased the power of suggestion "Your arm is getting very heavy" but it didn't move. I added a directive statement: "Your arm is moving down." A thought popped into my mind: "Look at the rest of him!" His left arm was pressing down, almost raising him up from the couch he was lying on. I stopped and reviewed what happened. I had said "Your *right* arm is getting lighter" and then "Your *arm* is getting heavier." The man was left-handed, so his subconscious automatically interpreted "arm" as "left arm." At that point, I realized whatever is said to a hypnotized person may produce results very different from those the hypnotist intended, and I decided I don't want to use such an imprecise power over other people.]

SWIFT< I have read reports showing the phenomenon of missing time in alien abduction can in some cases be recreated as a fantasy through active imagination in a hypnotic state, as many are aware of what an abduction is through television or cinema, etc. There were tests carried out to prove it: the regressed in some way please the regressionist, even the regressionist may in some way at a psychic subliminal level transpose information to the regressed subject aiding the creation of a false imaginative recall.

order< SWIFT: Also might be interesting to note that even 40 years ago people did not agree on what so-called aliens looked like, or even the shape of flying saucers, until they began to see pictures on TV ... then all ideas began to match. *S

SWIFT< order: I totally agree with what you just said. In the past, people saw flying dragons, faery light, and faerys abducted people, beings seen as of this Earth but hidden in a mysterious way. The faerys were in many ways replaced by aliens, in the 50's when space was seen in a new light, and with the possibility of other life forms out there, attention shifted outwards. It was aliens from Mars and near-by planets. Then it soon became intergalactic aliens from Zeta Reticuli, etc. At the same time, man landed on the moon, and space was a new explorable frontier. Now with the advent of quantum physics, it's beings from other dimensions, and innumerable combinations, which for me is has a validity, and faerys can be seen in fitting into this new science.

order< SWIFT: Would tend to think these experiences are more subtle and psychic than real, wrapped in images that we expect to see according to our beliefs? What do you think? *S

SWIFT< order: I believe they are subtle and psychic in most cases, yet also real in some way; i.e., what people see, whether it is spiritual ancestors or faerys or aliens, has something behind it that shape-shifts in accordance to people's expectation or lack of comprehension of what is really there. What is really there uses the human's memories/experiences. The human's imagination where all this is stored is the creative side of the storage vessel. It's a wardrobe where these shapeless energies that possess intelligence of a kind can pick or choose what they wear in order to be comprehended/presented to the human consciousness. Maybe we clothe them? Perhaps they are aspects of the higher self and relative planes?

order< SWIFT: Maybe they are all these things and none. *LOL* But I do agree with this line of thinking much more than the 'reality' one. Energies of some sort are perhaps being tapped into, and I (for now) still think they are clothed by our expectations; thus do some see Mary, some Jesus, some angels, some aliens, etc. Worth a thought or two! *VBS

Hakki808< SWIFT: Well, my partner has missing time experiences. All abductees experiences are not, I believe, fake and fantasies. I feel they are suffering from trauma in many ways. And our skepticism about their traumatic memories will harm them more than helping them to be recovered.

SWIFT< Hakki808: I said, I stress again, in some cases abduction scenarios can be created by the active imagination in fantasy form. They can be experienced as real. I also believe there is an as-yet undetermined reality and more experiences, and all experiences are not the same. There is a wide and varying spectrum.

Joyboy< Hakki808: There has never been an "abduction" but there have been many who experienced what they believe as abduction. If you understand that we all chose our reality, all of it, then there can't be victims. I know there have been many that have gone with the Greys, and others, but never as an abduction. The Greys are clever and fool and lie to people to get them to sign contracts with them in one lifetime, and then in the next lifetime they come back and collect on their contracts. Still, the person did agree, but not necessarily in this lifetime.

Hakki808< Joyboy: I feel, why you keep abstracting their experience as abductees? It does not matter whether their trauma and depression are originated from their imaginations or false memories or real abduction experiences. I believe their fears and stresses and depression are real. If you do not believe alien abduction is real, I respect your belief as it is NO matter how you intellectualize the alien abduction stories. Your skeptical intellectual belief does not help but does more harm to those who are traumatized emotionally by their abductees' memories which have been recovered by whatever means.

Joyboy< Hakki808: Hold on please! I wasn't saying what you think. I agree that people feel they have been abducted. I know of the Alien's and know they take people far more than is known; this I agree. They also look at humans like dog shit, so they have very little respect for them. They do all kinds of stuff to them, but what I was trying to tell you is, there are no victims. That's it.

Hakki808< Joyboy: Unfortunately most of them feel victimized by aliens in many cases. I would say to them that they are not victims here.

Joyboy< Hakki808: Yes, they do, and they were really taken by ET's, just that they had to have some agreement for this to take place, not conscious and that's why they feel victim. Their traumas still need to be healed but if they could understand they chose the experience they would heal much faster.

Hakki808< Joyboy: I agree they have to figure out why they are abducted as the first step to get out from their feeling of victimization.

[Ben< Joyboy: Those who say there are no victims are sitting in judgment, using a one-sided theory of karma that declares aggressors innocent and victims guilty of whatever happens to them. I do not assume that abused individuals have chosen to be abused. I assume the abuser initiated the abuse, especially when the abuse is deception. More than a few of the people I've regressed to their abused childhood have healed only after they realized they *didn't* choose it, they didn't bring it on themselves. This self-realization is especially needed in cases of rape and incest.]

SLIDER< Ben: What if the abused one is attached and the person-victim isn't aware of any such possibility?

Ben< SLIDER: Yes, the ghost of an abused child may be attached to a person and sending its feelings to the person's subconscious mind. This is a case for soul-rescue. It may be discovered in the "differential diagnosis" stage of regression therapy.

SLIDER< Ben: Thanks

order< Well, I personally do not believe in souls attaching themselves to others. (sighs) ... dead ones especially. *s

Hakki808< order: Well, Japanese people believe many dead children's souls will be attached to physical body of their parents, because they do not understand where they are going after their unfortunate death. It is very important for them to be guided to take a next step to the other side.

order< Hakki808: I realize that many 'believe' such things; just stating that I do not.

FRAML< order: Neither did I, until I started having strange desires regarding several women, desires that hadn't been there during the 5+ years I had known them previously, and a type which I don't consider as part of my path. That was how, during a detachment session with Ben, we discovered that there was this Irishman who was looking for his lost love who he had left in Ireland, and now was looking for her and any other pleasing lady. I have it on my site. What I thought about doing one day scared the heck out of me. I knew it wasn't "me". After the detachment, the symptoms were gone.

order< FRAML: Yes, I read that exchange on your web page. Very interesting. Yet, I might have come up with a different reason for this struggle. The important thing is, however, that you found release and freedom. Am rejoicing with you, my dear, Friend! **Hugs**

FRAML< order: Thank you.

Valkyrie< FRAML: I have a friend who is a hypnotherapist who is doing the same work, and I am familiar with the techniques, although I am not a hypnotist.

FRAML< Valkyrie: I don't do anything with hypnosis, nor was I hypnotized.

Hakki808< order: I have dealt with these lost children's souls many times, as I am conducting healing sessions with my clients. Usually I call angels to guide them to the other side for the next life if they are going back here again. I respect your belief though. I have more experiences about that matter, more than you do. It is a real psychic issue about unnecessary bonding between living parents and wandering children's souls.

order< Hakki808: Believe that God will guide souls where they need to go. Their souls are no longer children when set free from the physical. (imho) *S

Hakki808< Well, it is a tricky one (((order))): even children have their own choice whether they want to stay in lower astral plane close to the earth domain. They can make a choice to hang around their parents on the earth plane even after their deaths. I do not underestimate the wills of wandering children's souls. In most cases, their parents have a hard time to let them go, and keep their psychic bonds with their children even after their unfortunate death.

Ben< order: Yes, God and those who work for God will guide souls where they need to go, but many souls do not know that, and many fear God, and many refuse to be guided. Stubborn children will go their own way.

order< Ben: We could get into quite an involved discussion on souls ... will ... places to go in consciousness ... who is really bound ... is the soul really attached or is the memory of the soul haunting to the parent? So many directions! And I am not so full of Wisdom yet. *VBS

Ben< ALL: Okay, it's time for me to get some rest. Peace and blessings to each of you. Good session tonight. Namaste.

15. Past Life Regression
Session 3: Sat 23 Jan 1999

Ben< ALL: Regression is a type of experience that many people have had, in which they seem to be re-living something that happened to them in the past. Two weeks ago, we considered a recurring dream and some of the ways we might investigate whether it was a spontaneous regression. Last week, we looked at an example of Past Life Regression Therapy. Tonight I'll present two scenarios of past life regression and ask you what you would do with the results of those scenarios.

Ben< SCENARIO 1: Suppose you (either spontaneously or intentionally) find yourself reliving a scene in which you are the leader of your clan, the center of everyone's attention, because you alone must decide whether your people will fight or flee the approaching enemy. The scouts have given their reports, and the other leaders have spoken. Most of them say it is best to stand and fight. You think so, too. But you are not sure your people can win. You know many will be killed and more will be crippled. In a moment of weakness, you decide your people must flee. They trust you completely and obey you without question, but they are caught in an ambush. Every one of your people is killed, all 400 of them -- men, women and children -- but many are captured and tortured before they die. Your captors force you to watch all this, and only then cut off your head with a sword. You pop out of the regression in agony, sobbing, "I knew better! I knew better!"

Ben< QUESTION: What will you do with your thoroughly justified self-condemnation? How will you compensate, atone, balance your karma, or somehow make it right? YOUR TURN

Lo< Wow, easier said than done, whatever the resolution.

greyman< greyman is absolutely speechless.

Kemokae< I think the next life would be in serving to amend for the deaths ... such as a doctor or nurse ... maybe not a "leader" but one who is under another in that capacity perhaps.

Lo< I like that, Kemokae. Also one would somehow have to forgive oneself to make any real progress. That would be a toughie for me.

Joi< It is best to always follow your first impressions!

Cantus< I think something like this comes up for healing -- generally to be released at a cellular level. In the release a present pattern of action/reaction may be rectified.

FRAML< It could cause me to doubt every decision I had made in this life, or might ever make in the future.

SCOTT< *LoL* These things happen.

SLIDER< This is a "dammed if you do, dammed if you don't" situation. I am sure, if it was my situation, I would look for guidance from a higher source and try not to drown in self pity.

skier< Examine your present life. Does this have any bearing on your relationship with someone? On how you relate to certain situations?

Ben< skier: In examining your present life, you find this buried memory may be why you have always refused any position of leadership, and in fact tremble all over if anyone even suggests it.

FRAML< Ben: Now I know the reason for my lack of self-confidence. Next step?

Kemokae< There's always the opposite un-appealing thought: to become a hermit the next time around, a loser type ... but that doesn't seem like good soul progress.

Ben< Kemokae: This memory was from long ago, when they still fought with swords, so the next life may have already been lived, and perhaps several lives.

Kemokae< Ben: Then you would have to break the cycle of the past experience somewhat to progress.

Cantus< I think one must come to terms with the fact that this is what happened ... and let it go, because it's done.

skier< Then perhaps you learned a lesson. You might be able to accept small leadership tasks such as chairing a committee involving an activity for Scouts or something like that. Eventually you will learn to overcome your fear.

Buffalowoman< It would cause me to become more concerned about taking on responsibility in my next lives ... and explain why I'm the shrinking violet type.

Joi< Wouldn't it depend on: leading what? and also the length of time since that lifetime of such a seemingly major failure?

FRAML< Joi: That's the problem; one could have had a dozen or more lifetimes since that incident. Due to the veil, we don't remember how it affected us in the past.

Kemokae< FRAML: You never would, unless you had an understanding of your past life. Until then it would not mean much to you, except things may not be the way they ought to be. I am going through that now, I think. It's most perplexing, and I think it would be much easier if someone could just sit down and give detailed instructions. *G* ... walked that path!

Joi< Kemokae: Life never comes with instructions, ever! It is all choices over and over.

Buffalowoman< At the same time, a soul strong enough to have been a leader will crave that control again, but perhaps in a safer form.

SWIFT< I wouldn't let this clan leader any where near Scouts. I can see disaster everywhere. Maybe in a past life the clan leader was one of the three stooges?

Tantra< "compensate, atone, balance your karma, or somehow make it right" to me confuses the "duties of the social being" with the "intentions of the spiritual being".

Ben< Tantra: Except for absolute solitaries, totally alone and cut off from all connections, spiritual beings are social beings.

Tantra< Ben: Yes, but the ROLES of spiritual beings and social beings are distinctly different and deal with different universal realities.

Hakki808< Ben: Sounds like the issue of leadership ... fear or rebellion against the leadership ... or the issue of always obsessively take charge of any situation even if he does not know anything about the present situation in front of him. His obsession of leadership may disturb his present life very much.

Kemokae< And I am in the process now of handing over the leadership.

Spirit57< Sounds like issues of trusting subordinates, listening to others, and forgiving mistakes when intentions are pure.

Cantus< But depending on which aspect of this scenario was carried to this life, it could mean that it may or may not be leadership issues.

Ben< ALL: As many of you have seen, this scenario isn't trivial. It illustrates a major risk of past life regression, and a major problem for any soul: how can you honestly forgive yourself when your self-condemnation is thoroughly justified?

Buffalowoman< That does make it a toughie, for no matter how many lives we may save in later lives, that lapse will haunt us whether we are consciously aware of it or not.

terry< Can't all one do is face it? ... knowing it must be dealt with ... cannot be undone. But cannot something positive be taken from any event? I would strive to find that.

[Ben< terry: Yes. Good approach. Question is, how to do that?]

Tantra< How is ANY self-condemnation thoroughly justified? By what edict of morality is such a sentiment plausible? The context in which such a statement is made presumes a morality based on "fear" rather than "love", to me.

serena< Tantra: Excellent point.

[Ben< Tantra: Self-condemnation is justified within the person himself or herself, by what that person deeply believes is right and wrong, and not by any external edict. It is expressed in dichotomies such as: "I should not have done it, but I did" or "I should have done it, but I didn't."]

Buffalowoman< You have a point there, Tantra, but humans seem to want to find fault with either themselves or others.

Joi< Buffalowoman: Negativity is taught to us. I found I had to consciously work to rid negative thinking from my mind. And then it is practice, practice, catching oneself saying something negative, until the habit is broken. One month usually does it.

serena< Buffalowoman: Don't you 'feel' that is learned? If we are not separate from but a part of Spirit, then why is it so difficult to forgive? ... also is it not our perceptions that may be flawed?

Buffalowoman< Correct, serena. But knowing this doesn't automatically mean we take it to heart, know it wholly and without reserve.

serena< Buffalowoman: Isn't that part of the "reason" we are here? to KNOW it, feel it -- without doubt, without reservation -- down in the depths of Our Being ... to re-member who and what we are ?

Buffalowoman< serena: Yes, it is. But not all of us are born knowing this, and may remember a time of darkness from this truth ... and seeing others still in that darkness, have compassion and wish to know how to guide them out.

serena< Buffalowoman: Yes, and when One has gone through these experiences, that is where the compassion comes into focus, because otherwise how would One know?

FRAML< Tantra: To me it is from my own sense of responsibility. I would be in a position of knowing that my wrong decision had lead to the extinction of my entire people. The tribe I was responsible for leading and keeping safe. That is not from morality based upon fear, but from the willingness to accept responsibility and the duties that go with it.

Tantra< FRAML: You accept responsibility as a LEADER, as you should. Just as justice is served when you accept responsibility as a MEMBER of a jury, or as a JUDGE. These are social roles. Your duty as a spiritual being is to be compassionate, filled with love, mercy and forgiveness. These disparate roles that we each have as individual sentient beings and as member cells of a common social organism are the test of ages. Jesus said, "Render unto Caesar those things which are Caesar's, and render unto God those things which are God's." I believe he spoke of this dual role we each have. So I submit that such self-condemnation is justified ONLY in a lack of social adequacy, NOT in personal morality. Sincerity and intention are much more valuable than any time/space accomplishment (or lack thereof).

order< ((((Tantra)))) Agree with you completely!!! *VBS

FRAML< Tantra: Then we must agree to disagree.

Tantra< FRAML: I'm not sure what we disagree on. *S* You are saying some things with a lot of merit.

FRAML< Tantra: I see a linkage of the decisions in this life based upon the path I follow, as to whether or not they can keep me from escaping the reincarnation cycle and thus going to the Light to be with the most high God. Also I've spent my life in the military and have had the responsibility to keep my men alive with the proper decisions.

Tantra< FRAML: Thank you for clarifying. Are we judged then by our decisions, or by our intentions?

FRAML< Tantra: Ah, you have the point "intentions vs decisions." In my view we can loose sight of good intention (in Ben's example) due to our grief over seeing the actual decision having the wrong outcome (i.e. the outcome we were trying to prevent).

[Ben< Tantra and FRAML: Good intentions make poor excuses. Decisions can only be judged by their consequences. And consequences are judged by various definitions of good and bad, with which we may or may not agree.]

Kemokae< Ben: May I give an example ...

[Ben< Kemokae: Sorry I didn't see this post.]

star12< The person could forgive themselves because they did not know it was going to happen, and "should have known" impossible if previous life not known.

skier< Forgiveness is a strange concept. I always thought it belonged to God. The most we can do, either regarding our own wrongs or another who has wronged us, is to go on, neither hating nor condemning the actor, only the action. Learn from it, but do not beat yourself or anyone else over it.

terry< Nicely said, skier, and in a perfect world, we could love ourselves and be able to forgive ourselves for any past transgression.

FRAML< skier: Forgiveness is something from God toward us, but also something we need to do toward ourselves and toward others who harm us. If we do forgive ourselves for a transgression that we now know we could/should have avoided, it releases a chain that holds us to this plane of existence so that we can thus escape the reincarnation cycle.

Cantus< Agree with you there, FRAML -- Jesus said to his disciples that any transgressions they forgave would be forgiven and any transgressions they held would be held.

Kemokae< Maybe this is the aftermath of the statement "Do unto others" ... until we are perfect in harmony and balance.

Cantus< Since forgiveness is the key, one will have to get to the point where forgiving yourself can be done -- even when self-condemnation seems justifiable.

[Ben< Yes, this soul needs to forgive himself or herself. The question is how he or she can do that honestly, whole-heartedly, without the hypocrisy of self-deception.]

SLIDER< Ben: Perhaps a preliminary course in "That was then, this is now" should be given to prospects for past life regression beforehand.

[Ben< SLIDER: Yes, it can help the person to have this mental tool available beforehand, so the person can start to distance himself or herself from a painful memory as soon as it surfaces.]

greyman< Ben: Maybe purpose of pain is to work out past life self-condemnation.

[Ben< greyman: The purpose of pain is to indicate something is wrong; it is like a flashing red light on an instrument panel. Pain can be considered an opportunity to search for and (hopefully) correct what is causing it.]

Hakki808< Well, I was a Japanese war lord in a local area in my past life. I had to kill a lot of rebellious farmers and their wives and children. I am glad to find out that past life. I want to clear it out from my soul layers.

katzenbou< But in issues of war, hindsight is 20/20. Yet the past is the past; one can learn from it, but must not let it ruin our lives. When one forgets the past, it can be said the past no longer exists. Sun Tzu said that when their forces are superior one must flee the enemy, when they are matched one may fight, when they are inferior one may give battle. So fleeing might have been the best course in that situation other than the fact that scouts were not used to ensure the safety of the fleeing forces.

Hakki808< It was a historical event. During any historical period of humankind, unfortunately, many innocents and not-so-innocent people have been murdered. How can we make any judgment for these genocides?

skier< Good point, Hakki808. Besides the 20/20 hindsight problem, people weren't as sophisticated as we are now, so we cannot judge the past by modern standards. To a great degree we are all a product of our times.

Cantus< But at this point you're looking at this incident as history -- time to let go. It happened -- you felt -- you felt bad -- time to heal ... so forgive and get on with it.

serena< Cantus: Agree!

Cantus< It doesn't mean there isn't a lot to work through. And the release can be very agonizing, but your whole body rejoices after the release. There's no need to carry this type of pain in your cells.

Kemokae< Cantus: I never knew of my past life. It's like it has "found" me, even though it has taken probably half of my current life in doing it.

order< I would think one must come to grips with the fact that a leader leads, makes decisions. Some will be good, some not. That's the risk of being a leader.

Kemokae< order: Yes and no, for all leaders have others to fend for. If they mis-use that talent, they may set the stage to have not passed the test of being "perfect" and one with the higher source.

order< Kemokae: Only the intent of the leader must be called into question, not his Wisdom. If his intent was good there is nothing to be guilty about. (imho) Just chose wrong. (shrugs) It happens even when we do not want it to happen.

Ben< ALL: This type of scenario doesn't pose a problem for those who have no self-selected moral standards. They can excuse themselves for anything, any time. And yet there are many souls who have chosen not to be like that. For them, this type of memory is a problem.

SLIDER< Ben: Can you expand on self-selected moral standards?

[Ben< SLIDER: Self-selected moral standards are the definitions of good and bad, right and wrong, which an individual has personally accepted and internalized.]

Hakki808< Ben: I believe exploring the past life itself is an emotional and spiritual cleansing process ... releases many regrets, guilts, shames, promises and vows we have felt and made in our past lives.

[Ben< Hakki808: Past-life exploration isn't necessarily therapeutic. Going back through a painful memory again and again reduces the pain by the process of deconditioning, but past-life exploration can reactivate painful memories without cleansing them or releasing them, as shown in this scenario.]

Kemokae< Doesn't the Bible say something about "Until the law is fulfilled"? Often wondered if the law was reincarnation, to walk the steps of learning, the way of the higher source, until we are worthy to move on into heaven or such a realm by "experience".

serena< Kemokae: We are all "worthy". We are ALL Divine Pure Souls. Experience = Expansion.

order< Kemokae: Always thought the law is LOVE??

Buffalowoman< Love is all.

Kemokae< Yes, I decided a long time ago that our main goal in life is to experience it ... and to bring about the totality of love of the higher source for all of mankind. And so the torch is passed unto my grand-daughter perhaps? I have a direct reason for my knowing my past life. I think it has something to do with the future state of mankind, possibly ... as I had been a preacher then ... and God was in need of my services to access the "now". I do believe that others can come through to you -- and the higher you evolve, the more can the higher source also.

Ben< ALL: Okay. Now suppose you were a past life therapist, and this past life memory was presented by a client. How would you go after the healing of this memory?

skier< To help someone come to grips with what went on in a past life, it is first necessary to listen to how the person feels about it, in great depth if necessary.

Hakki808< Unfortunately, we can not change our pasts, though we can remember them in deep layers of our souls. The person has a problem/issue of leadership or some kind of unknown phobia or emotional disturbance from something which he does not know about at all, if he discovered the memory of the event of genocide of his people. With the proper guidance of his therapist, he may be able to release his psychic wounds of self-condemnation from his past life.

Spirit57< I would focus on the intent of the person in the past life regression, which was to save the people. A wrong decision does not mean a person is bad, or untrustworthy. Simply means a mistake in judgment occurred, which is common among us. Focus instead on the fact this person chose to lead and try to improve the lot of his people. Chose to put himself aside and help all he could. And could be, in a life prior to that one, he was the tormentor. Who can say?

Ben< Spirit57: Yes, you are on a therapeutic track for this person. In answer to your question "Who can say?" *only* this person can say what needs to be said for his or her healing. The therapist must try to lead him or her to see it and say it.

Kemokae< Ben: Well ... strangely ... you're helping me by discussing this. As I was looking over the material already discussed previously, I was also picking up a new "awareness" of things.

Cantus< Kemokae: I think that the creator's timing is the best. Nothing happens before we're ready.

Kemokae< Once you wear the cloth ... it is then that it starts to be discarded ... but first you must recognize it ... you must recognize a coat from a shirt ... so to say!

Joi< Kemokae: You probably aren't ready for this, but we all have thousands of past lives. This just seems to match one that is surfacing for you now.

Kemokae< Joi: Yes ... understand that!! Have been told that!!

order< Spirit57: Agreeing with you, too! *S

Buffalowoman< The intention has it.

serena< Spirit57: I 'feel' and BELIEVE there are no mistakes, just choices we may have made that today we would NOT make. It is a part of One's growth as long as they choose to the best of their ability. And what about Soul Agreements made prior? There are reasons why and wherefore we are not aware of -- not aware of how it fits into the Grander scheme of things and therefore a reason for making certain choices as a Soul Group Agreement ... reasons not clear to Us at this 'time'.

Spirit57< I hope you are right, Serena, but knowing what I know about me, I have to say I have made a mistake. Whether by interpreting information wrongly or just by being purely obnoxious. Sounds too much like total predestination to simply say it was part of the plan. It may have been part of the overall plan that such would happen, but if I were the one that turned my people into the jaws of the enemy, it would not have been because of any plan. It would have been because I made a mistake in judgment.

order< Spirit57: I believe in 'mistakes' of wrong intent. *VBS

skier< order: If there is actual wrong intent, then some type of amends will be necessary. If there was not, it can be viewed as a lesson learned.

order< skier: My post was in response to the statement "There are no mistakes". I believe wrong intent *is* a mistake and will produce mistakes. *S

serena< Spirit57: That is where the judgment is NOT necessary. We all make choices, but there is no right, no wrong, JUST learning lessons and experiences. We are encased here in 'form' whereby we are fallible, but it all fits into a grander Plan and it all is for growth = expansion ((((hug))))) quit being so hard on yourself.

FRAML< serena: I must disagree. I believe there are right and wrong choices. I make choices based upon information, and if I analyze the information and decide to select a course which I know could cause harm to me or my family instead of one that will keep them safe, and they come to harm, my choice was the wrong one. My wife says "I told you to bring home lamb chops, not pork chops." Thus I made the wrong choice at the meat counter.

order< FRAML: I agree with your statement!! **Smiles**

Yopo< serena: Maybe "judgment" is meant in another way? To evaluate and draw conclusions. Doesn't necessarily always imply condemnation.

Buffalowoman< Yopo: Taken in that context, it's totally different ... for that is how we learn. When we can carry over knowledge in a positive light, it'll be of benefit, rather than a burden of guilt.

serena< FRAML: I respect your views and I still say there is NO right, NO wrong ahahahahahahaha. Yopo: It has nothing to do with condemnation; it just IS is ALL. LOL LOL ... ahahhahahahaha ~~SSSS~~

order< serena: What's to learn if there is no right and wrong? *S

serena< order: How to LOVE un-conditionally ... peace ... brotherhood ... getting along ... harmony ... all is learned through our experiences, no? Why does One have to judge and limit? hummm ... ???

order< serena: Is it *right* to Love? Are these things better than their reverse? What is the definition of right and wrong? *S

Joi< order: I would say, to learn to make better choices. Working to get over negative thinking is so important.

order< Joi: But a *better* choice implies a *righter* choice.

SLIDER< Ben: One would have to assure the client of the aspect of the spiritual world first. Then convince the client of the chance to grow through trial and error and the possibility of growth from living the experience.

[Ben< SLIDER: Yes ... an excellent statement of therapeutic strategy.]

Yopo< Think I would concentrate on helping the person try to find the lesson in it. Maybe by trying to find out where in the current lifetime the same sort of issue might again be appearing. Same lesson may be repeated again and again in many different masks, until finally understood.

Kemokae< That's what is going through my mind now ... what is the lesson I need to learn to go on? or what is the purpose of my knowing? and where to now?

greyman< Since this is above my pay-grade, I would request spiritual guidance.

Levita< Part of the healing is also acceptance.

Cantus< Ben: Often a deep release from the client with support provided by the practitioner works wonders.

[Ben< Cantus: Yes, sometimes the client really needs to cry, to purge the painful emotions by expressing them. This type of release (catharsis) can be beneficial.]

Hakki808< Well, if I was his therapist, I would guide him to focus on what leadership means to him in the present life. I would recommend him to explore his leadership quality in the content of his present life style. I let him to look at positive and negative side of his leadership style. I would make him think about what is the kind of lesson of leadership from his past life memory.

Spirit57< Next I would get the person to try to do a little leadership, with the provision that there were no wars ongoing. Nothing big. Just start with confidence building. Maybe church groups or non-aggressive positions, just to get his feet wet again.

Ben< ALL: Okay. The most feasible therapeutic approach is to lead this person back into the scene, before the fateful decision, and ask him or her something like: "Why do the people trust you?" This should lead the regression *back* to earlier scenes where this leader actually earned their love and trust and confidence. After reviewing *more* of this life, the therapist may ask: "Would you condemn any of your people for one mistake? Or would you look at the whole person?" As it is, this soul is focusing on the emotions felt during his or her death trauma. This line of therapy may let the soul see in a longer perspective.

ODusty1< Ben: As far as therapeutic healing goes, I agree, that would be the most feasible, but not always the best. I have seen some panic with the situation, so it is a matter of knowing who you are working with, and the trust between the two of you.

Ben< ODusty1: Yes, of course. Therapy requires two-way trust. And this case might not be easy. I was pointing to a way to resolve self-condemnation that is broadly applicable, even in cases of this-life memories.

Yopo< Ben: So ... Strong emotional content surrounding a memory both draws one's attention to the location of a problem and in some way may hide the real issue that is there. Hmm ...

Tantra< Ben: This sounds like a very reasonable and empowering interaction -- to help a person identify with their basic sense of truth, beauty and goodness, wherever and whenever that divine identity occurred.

Ben< Tantra: Yes. I believe effective therapy is built on respect for the person by the therapist, not a superior or condescending attitude. To draw out and point to the good in the soul is a positive therapy.

Hakki808< Ben: I as his therapist would guide him to interview the person as an independent entity. I let him ask his name, his motivation for his life, what he felt about the massacre and his dreams and wishes. He has to accept him as a member of his soul beings. I would recommend him to journal his interview. I believe the first step of healing is acknowledgment of his own past life itself.

Levita< Perhaps there is the need to balance and put into perspective the past with the here and now?

order< I am wondering if this person feels so disappointed in himself as a leader, how would he be able to trust another who attempts to lead him into self-discovery?

Spirit57< order: First, a person in this situation is the kindergarten level. Must understand the world in terms of mistakes, or not. The difference is the graduate level versus the kindergarten. To get to the point where Serena is coming from requires much more learning and letting go than this person would be capable of. The trick is to get past the action to the intent. And yes, I think that person would trust someone else to lead, maybe even ANYONE else to lead, because what has happened is that he has destroyed the trust in himself, as opposed to the total trust in himself he showed in the prior life. Both extreme positions. So it looks like the thing to do is get him to the point where he trusts in himself, but not to the total exclusion of his advisors.

ODusty1< order: Some of us who believe in reincarnation also believe we repeat this cycle of life if we do not learn the lessons we should learn in it. When we do learn the lessons we need to, we pass on to the next level of learning and life.

skier< I second you, ODusty1.

order< ODusty1: Understand that we repeat because we got something 'wrong' ... we did not learn and 'Be' the right things. *S

ODusty1< order: I am not sure I would use the term "wrong" ... but we did not 'be' ourselves, we chose a path that took us away from ourselves ... whatever the pressures ... i.e., family, friends, work, etc, etc.

order< ODusty1: I think you struggle too much, maybe, with these words. They have meaning. (imho) Wrong means not being Our Highest Self, not being and acting in harmony with God/OverSoul/Spirit; right means we are. (shrugs)

whisperwind< I have recently gone through a past life regression. All of the lives that I touched on, I cannot see that they taught me anything, or rather that I learned anything ... except perhaps from two lives: that death does not hurt, and that love is all there is.

Kemokae< Many so-called "ghost-hunters" I thought let the spirit be "allowed" to go on. Is that true of letting go in a past life situation? Maybe "Love" of self is just as important as it is of others!

[Ben< ALL: After helping this soul see the past in a longer perspective, it would be appropriate to revisit the moment of weakness in which he or she vacillated between two courses of action, knowing they should fight, fearing they might lose, and feeling sorry that some would be killed or crippled. This soul's release from self-condemnation may be triggered by: (1) realizing that he or she based that fatal decision on subjective feelings instead of objective appraisal of the situation, and (2) resolving to remember the lesson: "There are times to go with what you know regardless of what you feel."]

Ben< ALL: Okay, the second scenario should be a lot more fun and easier to deal with. However, it is also non-trivial.

Ben< SCENARIO 2: Suppose you keep catching glimpses, dream fragments, of a life in ancient Egypt. Everything about these glimpses seems like home: the buildings, implements, hair styles, clothing. Because of these glimpses and this feeling, you search for everything you can find about ancient Egypt. You recognize much of what you read and feel it is correct, but you know some of it is wrong: that isn't the way it was. You intentionally meditate on one of the pictures in one of those books. Pop! You are in that picture, living that scene and going beyond it. You are one of the royal family, an adult child of the Pharaoh. You supervise the distribution of grain throughout a large area on the Lower Nile. And you do well, in your own eyes and in the opinions of everyone who knows you, royalty and commoner alike. At last, you die in your bed, very old and tired, but satisfied with your life.

Ben< QUESTION: What will you do with your thoroughly justified self-esteem? How might you use it, or apply it, or rest on it, or try to reclaim it, here and now, in the twentieth century? YOUR TURN

whisperwind< Ben ... that's hard!

skier< What did you do right in that life? You were a good person, a charitable person. You worked for the welfare of others. You realize that approach to life worked very well for you and for those around you. Repeat your actions in this life. Nothing succeeds like success.

Levita< The best way to apply such a recall is to strive to be an even better person than you were in that life.

Lo< Nice problem. :-) Acknowledging one's progress and showing gratitude for the experience of abundance, not always a pleasant one, nor one easy to accept or believe in. Hmm ...

Spirit57< In that scenario, I would probably try to recreate the same approval ratings since I found it to be very satisfying to me then. Probably not in the same area, though. I would figure I did that once; time to try a new thing and succeed at it. And maybe the nice happy life came to me to encourage me that I can keep going and live through this life. A past life success memory to encourage me on my rocky path.

Levita< One cannot rest on one's past accomplishments; they must seek out new ones.

order< I reckon taking on more responsibility and some form of leadership would be a good step.

SLIDER< In this case, a person can look back with a sense of satisfaction on a life well lived. And then look at the present life to see if any of these attributes have followed into the present life.

Kemokae< It would seem to me that this person, having felt justified as being a successful person, would need to adhere to being in a state of humbleness. A leader in Egypt would also have had to deal with the Exodus, perhaps.

[Ben< Kemokae: A life involved with the Exodus wouldn't have been so peaceful.]

skier< Kemokae: Humility must be a given. Pride leads to destruction.

Ben< skier: There is a large difference between false pride and earned self-respect. Unfortunately, the modern term "self-esteem" is used indiscriminately for both.

whisperwind< I would guess that success breeds success, goodness once learned will not be forgotten, even through lifetimes.

Yopo< Interesting! Why should the scenario concerning a life well lived suggest nothing to me in terms of its present relevance, while the one about a disastrous decision and its repercussions suggests much? *puzzled*

Levita< Yopo: Perhaps because one seems easier to handle emotionally than the other?

Lo< Yopo: Maybe we get focused too easily on negatives, and have a hard time, sometimes a harder time, dealing with great blessings or achievements.

whisperwind< Yopo: It's too easy? We have been taught that getting something without earning it is no good ... or even interesting ... no conflict.

Yopo< Maybe it's just 'cause the lesson of a thumb hit with a hammer is more memorable that the lessons of a hundred well-driven nails. *LOL*

whisperwind< Yopo: Exactly ... having done both at certain times. *S*

Hakki808< Ben: Your scenario reminds of my sudden flash of past-life memory when I was in a classroom at Rolfing school. I felt I was back in an ancient Egyptian classroom of Rolfing techniques. My teacher, Peter, was my father at that period. It was a very dramatic psychic flash which transformed my present classroom scene into the ancient Egyptian one. Everybody in there was wearing ancient costumes. The classroom itself was transformed into an ancient Egyptian style building.

Tantra< If we apply the same rationale to this scenario, then we must ask "What fortuitous events enabled the Pharaoh to be so magnanimous?" Perhaps he was born to a noble family and well educated, making it easy to be generous. Perhaps self-satisfaction is merely the by-product of benevolent intention. Can there be true satisfaction without adversity? I think not. We need to strive in order to feel true accomplishment.

ODusty1< If this was an occurrence that happened to me, I would wonder why I was here again. What did I not learn that I still need to learn? Yes, I would be happy to have had a successful life of sorts, but I am still here. So ... what have I that I need still learn?

Lo< I'd be wondering that as well, ODusty1.

Levita< ODusty1: Good point. *S*

skier< ODusty1: You probably have other lessons to learn. Maybe you need to learn about love or relationships with other persons, for instance. Being charitable and good-hearted is not all there is.

ODusty1< skier: It sounds as if you have met me in person ... and yes, I feel we all have lessons to learn in different areas ... perhaps I more than most.

[Ben< ALL: The past-life memories in this scenario indicate that this soul has a well-developed and well-tested sense of ethics; that is, an inner understanding of what is right, fair, equitable. That sense of ethics can be applied beneficially in many social roles, in any lifetime, and by a discarnate soul. Therefore, it is worth bringing forward into this life and using and building upon.]

Ben< SUMMARY: In past-life regression, one may reactivate old loyalties, connections, wounds, reactions, agendas, self-images, etc. Past Life Therapy does this intentionally, but very selectively, in order to resolve issues, mend damage, and heal memories of the soul. In any case, the basic issue is: "What will I do with these memories now?" I believe it is best to look at past-life memories as data, information, lessons learned (often the hard way), study them as dispassionately as possible, and then decide specifically which lessons are worth bringing forward into this life and which should be allowed to recede into the past without suppressing them, by saying to oneself: "That was then, this is now."

Ben< /topic Wrap-up Discussion of Past Life Regression

Lo< Ben: Having only had one recall, I was amazed that after reviewing the experience and identify the individual linked to it in this life, I was able to look at the person objectively for the first time. The emotional aspect of the current relationship squashed that before. It really resolved itself almost immediately after my review.

Levita< Past lives are but a chapter in an eternal life. We learn, we grow ... all chapters are but fragments of our total selves.

Lo< Thank goodness, Levita, cuz I'd hate mine to be just this one life! *shudder*

whisperwind< Ben: In the six lives that I experienced, I recognized no one that I know in this life. I believed in the power of love long before my regressions, but still I believe that it is important to know who we were in order to know now who we are, and who we will be.

[Ben< whisperwind: Yes. And it can also be important to know who we were and who we are in order to decide whether we want to change who we will be.]

Aradiaa< Ben: I am wondering, how does one "resolve the issues? (say, for example: you had a family in a past life; and you start to remember who you were ... your past life personality and emotions, and maybe you died in a tragic way, or felt like you had to be with them again, or didn't get to say good-bye (soul is not at rest). How do you know if this is the case? Is there any difference in different people's recall? Say, for instance, some can see more clearly or strongly. Would this have an effect upon this "resolving the issues"?

Ben< Aradiaa: There is tremendous variety in past-life memories. That is why past life therapy techniques aren't cut-and-dried check-lists. It is an art, not a science. And yet, great good is being done this way. The basic direction of this therapy is kindness, caring, helping the person to see a truth that sets him or her free from past-life pain and enables him or her to live more fully here and now and henceforth.

Tantra< One of the problems, for me, in discussing past life regressions is that the very terms being used carry diverse connotations depending on our individual paradigms and belief systems. However, in terms of compassion, love, forgiveness and mercy, we all share common ground. It is in the realm of individual SOCIAL roles where we have different expectations of each other and ourselves. I also believe we overlap and displace our social and spiritual expectations of ourselves and others.

[Ben< Tantra: Good point. I said spiritual beings are social beings because they interact in groups, clusters, and communities, but I agree that social roles do not define spiritual beings.]

Ben< COMMENT: The source that spoke through Edgar Cayce often summed up a past life reading: "And so the entity gained in that life" or "Thus the entity lost ground in the end" or "Therefore the entity both gained and lost in that lifetime." As I said two weeks ago, a reading is someone else's testimony, whereas a regression is a personal experience. However, it is interesting to study the Edgar Cayce material to see what his source considered "gain" and "loss" for the entity.

Lo< Thanks, Ben. Cayce's readings help clarify that quite a bit.

order< I really enjoy Mr. Cayce's reading of Akashic Records. His source was his own subconscious/soul. I believe that is what he kept stressing, although a few others with names did pop through. I read that they decided to receive no more info from these. Cayce always instructed others to read Akashic Records themselves from within and not to seek discarnate entities.

kola< Ben: Does that imply to you then, that the soul keeps score? Are we striving toward some level, in your opinion?

[Ben< kola: Yes, souls keep score (of themselves and others), but they don't all use the same scorepad. They tend to strive toward what they believe is good and right, but they don't all believe in the same definitions of good and right, so they aren't all striving in the same direction.]

Yopo< Ben: I don't know much about regression therapy. What usually happens? I mean, does the relevant memory usually appear when the therapist focuses on a current-life issue? Or does a memory come first, and reveal present issues that are hidden?

Ben< Yopo: The past life memory may come first, or the therapist may start with a present problem and look for the associated past life memory. It can work either way.

Yopo< Ben: Ah. Thanks ...

Hakki808< Ben: I discovered I was planned out to be born in this time period when I was exploring one of my past lives. My previous incarnation used his angelic magic to escape from the curse of black magic church. He used angelic magic to seed himself into the future life. I am born as the result from his angelic magic.

SLIDER< Ben: As the aspect of past life memories that shake up a person's soul when they invade the conscious mind seems to have an adverse affect on the daily lives of some people, how is it that the subconscious mind does not evaluate these problems and incorporate them into the soul memory so as to alleviate the past memory in the first place? Is the spirit of this soul separate from the memory of this soul and needs to combine present memory with past memory?

Levita< SLIDER: Not sure I understand your question to Ben. Could you rephrase it please? *S* Being a little slow here.

SLIDER< Levita: The spirit, soul, subconscious, and conscious should all be connected. Where does the problem arise that all is not aware of itself?

Ben< SLIDER: Painful memories from this life are often repressed. Likewise with painful past-life memories. In fact, it seems that some souls reincarnate for the same reason that some men join the French Foreign Legion: "To forget." But repressed memories continue to cause problems whether they are from this life or a past life. Hence the need to surface them and resolve them positively.

SLIDER< Ben: Thanks.

Levita< SLIDER: So you are in effect saying, why don't we just know everything and all lives right off at the beginning?

SLIDER< Levita: I was wondering why we don't just have a connection with sub-conscious and soul memory so as to learn from the past memory. I forgot about how well we can repress memory in the human body -- Ben just reminded me. *S*

Levita< SLIDER: OK. *S* And yes, that is what I term the veil of forgetfulness. I think it is extremely necessary to remain emotionally human and to thereby relate to the human experience.

Joi< SLIDER: Most people can't handle this life, let alone remember all their past lives. Too many people would go crazy if that were a reality.

SLIDER< Joi: Yes, the human animal is fragile when emotion is involved. I guess that's what makes us human. (((LOVE)))

Levita< Joi: Agree strongly with you, due to first hand experience. *S*

Joi< Levita: Those of us who were adults in the 60's had to go most of the road alone or just with a friend or two only! It was super lonely back then, talking about this stuff.

Levita< Joi: I was born in 1962 and you still didn't talk about these things. *S*

skier< Joi: Talk about lonely ... I had an NDE in 1968 and it led to all sorts of strange things, mostly past life memories. One of the reasons I came here to SWC is to assure myself that I'm not a freak!!

Levita< skier: Nope, just normal like the rest of us. *S*

FRAML< skier: Yes, several people who have found Ben's website have sent him e-mails with similar comments. If you haven't read them yet, may I recommend his Dialogue with Trudy, which started with a letter stating: "Thank God I'm not alone, there is someone else who has had these experiences."

Joi< Levita: We didn't talk about these things openly until the 90's. I realize my guardian angels taught me to say to people, "What do you think about ESP?" That was the way we approached it back then. If a person nixed it, then you changed the subject. // skier: Well, all I can say is, welcome home. You have found one of your "Soul Families" at last. // And Levita: Ask Ben, men never talked about this stuff hardly at all back then.

Levita< Joi: *S* It took me a long time to feel blessed by it all, but now I do realize how blessed I have been to have been granted to see so many wonderful things. {hug}

Joi< Levita, dear, it is beautiful, but I guarantee it is not common for us older generations. Maybe it is becoming more common nowadays. Realize though, how lucky you are!!!

order< Joi: Ahhh! Yes ... Thanks lots!!!!!

Aradiaa< Ben: How do you come to the conclusion that one is no longer bound to this "earth"? (Is there a way to know if your next life is going to be here or not?) Do you think reincarnation will ever become scientifically accepted? And is what we are doing here tonight a form of "past life therapy" (or do you do it privately?)

Ben< Aradiaa: I have come to the conclusion that some of the discarnates I've conversed with are telling the truth when they say they have entered eternal life (stopped reincarnating) because they no longer desire anything that requires a physical body, and they continue to serve as angels because they continue to care about others. I don't know whether reincarnation will ever be scientifically accepted. I hope so. Yes, what we were doing here tonight may well have been a form of past life therapy for some of those here. Again, I hope so. And yes, I do this privately.

FRAML< Aradiaa: We are bound to this plane and the reincarnation cycle by our desires, loves, lusts, for the people and experiences we have here, also a desire to complete unfinished business or revenge will keep us here, since to accomplish any of those we must come back here. That is because we make those the foremost goals of our lives. Also it can be because we believe reincarnation is the only way to progress, that we can't go straight to the most high God.

Buffalowoman< *S* Mother/Father of the Cosmos. *S*

Levita< FRAML: Yup! Either that or it's a dirty job and somebody has to do it. *S*

Aradiaa< FRAML: Well, I take it all of that must be decided somewhere along the line, but I'm not sure if I understand why it seems many do not like coming here ... are attached. I am not sure exactly why one is not supposed to be here? Does an abundance of life experience mean one no longer needs to live upon the earth? Or could that abundance of knowledge be used to help clear the way for better future lives? For example, you know you will live eternally, so you may want to make the world a better place.

FRAML< Aradiaa: I don't know if it is abundance of life experience that gets us to the point of being able to place our material/earth-plane desires as subordinate to the desire to reunite with the most high God and to serve him. I have found, for myself, that Jesus is the spiritual teacher whom I will follow without reservation ... into heaven or hell, so to speak. I've decided that it is not the books I want to read, the love of eating good food, of leading men in battle, that is the ultimate goal of my life, but living my life by the example that Jesus lived and taught. I have decided to link myself to him as the ultimate priority in my life. All I do here is in the attempt to be a living example of his words. That I see as being a freeing from the reincarnation cycle -- which I personally have no experiential evidence is a fact, though I accept others' testimony that they have lived previous lives.

order< FRAML: You always have such a wonderful way with words. Your post about Jesus being the spiritual teacher you would follow without reservations echoes my own heart's path. Everything in that post echoes my own Ideal. ***LotsaHugs***

FRAML< order: Bowing toward you. *S*

Hakki808< Ben: Is it possible for us to be able to seed our future life from the present moment?

Ben< Hakki808: Yes, we do set a karmic course for our future here and now. Present seeds sprout and grow later, perhaps in this life, perhaps in a future life. Yogis speak of finding and removing the "dragon-seeds".

Hakki808< Ben: Oh, I did not know about yogis who can set the karmic course for the future life ... finding and removing the dragon seeds ... wow ... my previous incarnation is right about seeding his future life into myself.

Joi< Think back to all the murders and wars that went on. If we remembered all of this coming in, we'd spend a whole life probably condemning ourselves, right?

serena< Joi: Instead of looking and speaking about what is "wrong" with the world, look at all the BEAUTY, LOVE and LIGHT. Build on that, watch the energy change sweetness, also take action to start a correction of what it is You see to be disaster. It all begins somewhere and that means with each One of US.

Buffalowoman< Joi: I agree. Human history is bloody. Yet we have evolved!

Love_Stuff< I am not sure of our evolvement. In third world countries man is barbaric. Take away our ready/steady food supply and our homes and we would de-evolve instantly. Any disaster shows the vandals and murderers among us. Over time it becomes the norm as the situation does not repair itself. Being civilized is a thin veneer at best.

Yopo< Joi: I've thought that too. But then, there might be stuff we're dealing with in this lifetime that seems otherwise inexplicable in terms of this-life experiences. A seemingly rootless fear, maybe, or a sort of emotional paralysis when confronted with certain situations ... THAT can certainly drive ya crazy! So, this past-life idea maybe provides one with a way of getting at the root of such a thing, and of dealing with it. Maybe some might prefer to think of it as an alternate therapeutic model, and think of past-life memories as constructs of the mind created to sort of sum up the causes of a thing. Even if only that, it still packages problems up so they can be more effectively dealt with.

Joi< Yopo: Some people work on themselves all their life, so when we get all the present stuff to a workable level, then the past starts to slide in. This is from experience. And Buffalowoman, thank goodness for evolving. In fact, we are a little further along than a lot of us who study this stuff all the time suspect. The movie "Ghost" is an example. I never expected that type of movie until after 2000!

Love_Stuff< Sounds like the same thing said slightly differently. Perhaps the intent was to escape the idea of Karma as 'punishment'.

order< Yopo: Thank you! ***BigHugs***

Yopo< order ... *hehehe* maybe my next incarnation will be in Teletubbie Land.

order< Yopo: I am planning to go to Middle Earth. Things were very black and white there. heehee

Yopo< order: Watch out what ya wish for! *S* I've often wondered about the results of a book like LOTR that fills the imagination of so many for so long. Tolkien's concept of sub-creation and all. Wondering if so many minds thinking and dreaming of a place might actually establish it somewhere, on some alternate plane of reality.

Joi< order: I seem to remember where I was "before". It was black and white also. These "gray zones" and teasing, and being sarcastic as a way of showing you liked someone, was really confusing for me, too!

order< Joi: For me the grey area is in knowing my own Mind ... my own heart in connection with Love's application. Sure, we all want to love, but sometimes it is confusing how Love is best expressed ... like when to coddle or when to let go ... when to stand up and when to stay seated in Life's arena. *VBS

Joi< order: It all comes back to choices. Ones that are super important will stay around. Or one can do the "sleep on it" method. Tell your "Higher Self" to let you know intensely which way is best to go.

order< Joi: I surely do that!! Have for many years. Actually my life is pretty wonderful ... always has been except for a little ripple here and there ... but the ripples do cause one to pause and contemplate. *VBS

Joi< order: You sure are lucky to only have ripples. I got divorced in my mid 20's and that caused some big hills and valleys for many years. I am finally down to the ripples now, thank goodness. I guess I needed to learn a lot.

Levita< Joi: My personal experience was that at an early age I was shown a lot of my soul's life, and not all of it was earth-bound ... actually most of it wasn't. This was at the age of six. Needless to say it took a lot of work to gain a balanced outlook. Actually took until I was around 26 or 27 to process and put everything in what for me is it's proper perspective, and I came very close to that abyss of going crazy as a loon. I had no outside help. Not an easy path, but I don't regret it. *S*

windchild< Yopo: I agree. Mass illusion.

Yopo< windchild: Illusion? I wonder. Like the man said, we are the stuff of dreams. *S* Spend a lot of time trying to separate illusion from reality, and still am not always entirely sure. Last night, for instance, I had a dream in which I and my brother were discussing the nature of dreams. *S*

windchild< Yopo: What I mean is that if everyone believes that a certain reality exists, then it becomes a mass illusion, because I think all realities are an illusion, which is why it is so easy (well, maybe not that easy) to change reality.

Yopo< windchild: Maya ... illusion. They say all is illusion. But I'm sorta stuck in it, and gotta deal with it.

windchild< Yopo: I used to be stuck in an illusion, but I broke through that one and am now stuck in another one. Isn't life funny?

Yopo< windchild: *S* I can relate. Life sometimes seems like one of those little Ukrainian wooden dolls. Another inside the first, and another inside that.

Ben< COMMENT: The best regression therapists I know all say they don't care about (and don't argue about) whether the pain-producing memories are actually of real events or false memories created in the mind: all they care about is the healing, the actual therapeutic result. I like that attitude.

Levita< Ben: A very sound approach, indeed. *S*

Buffalowoman< Since that is the purpose behind the event, I agree, Ben. It's a method of removing a blockage causing us pain.

Hakki808< Ben: I agree with your approach to the clients in the best kind of past life regression therapy.

Aradiaa< Ben and/or FRAML: What about people who just "remember?" who did no conscious recall, yet the memory is still fresh/ingrained upon one's soul? Is this possible?

Ben< Aradiaa: Yes, some just remember, like it was a normal memory. This is much more common in little children than it is in adults. Apparently the accumulating overlay of day-to-day memories tends to bury past-life memories.

Aradiaa< Ben: Yes, that makes sense ... just like an ordinary childhood memory fades with time.

Kemokae< Ben: I took my baby grand-daughter to church at Christmas (actually it's an historic shrine out here that they light up every year), and we looked at the lights and the story of the road to Bethlehem ... and we entered the church and saw the singers ... and we looked at the representation of the manger ... and we went by the lighted "prayer" candles and my little baby grand-daughter just "had" to see them ... as if they were the most important thing in the whole world ... and from a baby, again, I learned the real significance of the meaning of Christmas and "life".

[Ben< Kemokae: Yes. That could indicate the baby was recognizing something she has known and loved before.]

Levita< Ben: In my case, when I was a child, the episode of remembering was started by seeing a visual manifestation of a spiritual being ... is this common?

Ben< Levita: Yes, I know several people whose past life memories were triggered by an encounter with a spirit-being. Having an NDE can also do this.

Levita< Ben: OK, thanks. *S* I was curious about that.

SCOTT< Is there a danger in being too self-analytical, Ben?

Ben< SCOTT: Yes, there can be a danger in being too self-analytical. Analysis separates units into subsets, so one can rather disassemble oneself by too much self-analysis. Self-synthesis is the inverse process. It assembles bits and pieces into larger sets. Sometimes it's called "Getting oneself together."

SCOTT< Sounds like it makes sense when it's put like that to me, Ben. Thanks, understood.

Joi< SCOTT: It's a good idea to have a thought for every feeling and a feeling for every thought.

SCOTT< Ha ha ha *LOL* What a decoy I am. Don't shoot me, I ain't worth eating, unless you want a mouth full of plastic!

SLIDER< Ben: Do you have any way of showing a person where they are, who they are, and when they are?

Ben< SLIDER: Yes, I have some ways to help a person with self-realization (which is what you described), however, self-realization is almost always a process rather than a sudden revelation.

SLIDER< Ben: What would be the process for self-realization, if it wouldn't take too much to explain?

Ben< SLIDER: The process of self-realization is often seen best retrospectively. Like driving a boat, look back once in awhile to see where you have turned and how fast you are moving. *smile*

SLIDER< Ben: Good philosophy. Thanks. A real challenge would be the WHY. *S*

Ben< /topic OPEN

Kemokae< ... fantastic evening !!!!! // Yopo: Thanks for helping me. // Ben: Thanks for your help also. The questions you ask help me to help myself.

Ben< Kemokae: I'm glad that something said here tonight helps you to help yourself. I can't think of an outcome I would like better than that. Namaste.

Kemokae< Ben: If it wasn't for SWC, I probably would have kept having this information under my nose as a blind person for a good while longer, even though others had been telling me it all along. It was one of the people who had a brother here that was more or less "gossiping" about what they had heard from a physic brother that I began putting two and two together. Then all the questions you have answered. It just "came about" ... as one said, a self-revelation!!!

order< Ben: Maybe a class on "Why bad things happen to good people" would be helpful sometime. I know lots of people who are dealing with this scenario right now!! (sighs)

Ben< order: That would be an interesting topic. And I'd probably add the inverse: "Why do good things happen to bad people?" But first, we probably need to look at the entire concept of good and bad.

order< Ben: Yes ... another age old question! **VVBS

windchild< Ben: That would really be a good topic (Good and Bad). I know a lot of people that think wealthy people are bad, and in the next breath they are praying to win the lottery.

Ben< windchild: Hah! Good point, well said.

Kemokae< Ben: If I may go back for a second ... I was seeing in a review where there could be possibly an entity connected to my past life, giving problems now. How does a person rid themselves of that?

[Ben< Kemokae: I haven't illustrated it in this seminar, but that's what I meant in my summary when I said past life regression can reactivate old connections. How to get rid of detrimental discarnates is the subject of detachment therapy, Spirit Releasement Therapy, major and minor exorcism, etc.]

Kemokae< Ben: We had one person here awhile back under the nickname of GOD saying that there is no such thing as reincarnation WITH karma attached ... we make our lives each time by the experiences we have and how we deal with them. What do you think on that?

[Ben< Kemokae: That statement is mistaken. Many souls make a fresh start, and a more-or-less new life, because they do not remember their past lives, but the karmic trajectory of their desires, wants, etc., still tends to influence them and how they deal with their experiences, unless and until they change their desires.]

Kemokae< Ben: Remember when I asked you about what do you do when you have dreams that seem like they were alive, and you're being buried alive, smothered to death? It was while reading your last seminar that it "came to my mind" where I was buried in my past life. I heard of the cemetery's past history; many of the people there were quickly buried due to a small-pox epidemic, though I myself was said to have died of an heart-attack. You know, I suffered with boils as a child ... and one of the ones said to be buried there was a child who died from small-pox. Entity or something else? ... such as Karma by "association" -- or is that a just plain ridiculous thought?

Joi< Kemokae: Might not a lot of people been buried alive in the concentration camps during the Second World War? Does that hit a chord for you?

[Ben< Kemokae: Some speak of "group karma" and that is reasonable, but I think it is mostly a matter of souls gathering together and moving in groups. The boils were most likely caused by bacteria or the body expelling some biochemical toxin.]

Joi< Yopo: You are being pretty quiet tonight. Usually you are more philosophical. Are you perplexed about past lives??

Yopo< Nature of Thoughts in a Dream?

Joi< SCOTT: Have you ever been in a dream with other people you know personally and eventually you come to discuss about being in the dream together?

[Apparently SCOTT had left the chatroom.]

Joi< Ben: What I just asked SCOTT, have you ever had it happen to you? Have you been in a dream with others you know and talked about it later?

[Ben< Joi: Yes, including past-life dreams. A very interesting conversation begins when one person describes a dream and another says, "But that's *my* dream!"]

windchild< Joi: I have had dreams years in advance, of people I didn't know at the time, and then when our paths crossed we all experienced deja vu.

Joi< windchild: That is beautiful for all of you to have remembered later. Mine happened with an ESP School classmate, and it took 10 years for me to find one of the other people. It turned out to be my best friend who lived across the country.

windchild< Joi: I also had a dream about someone whom I believe to be my soul mate. Our paths have not met yet, but I have a very clear image of this person and am waiting and knowing when it happens it will be wonderful.

Joi< windchild: A lovely dream, also. Were you guys in present day clothes, though? If not, it was a reincarnation dream.

windchild< Joi: It was present day, for sure. I'm assuming this is some dream in my future and that it's already happening.

order< I'm wondering if a part of our selves is attached to what we manifest on/in the earth plane. For instance, does the Great Pyramid call to, or in some way have a link with those who built it? Is this why some psychics say certain souls will return to open it's secrets to the world? Just a silly thought ...*S

Joi< order: What you say is interesting, because one of the New Age artists drew a building he calls the "Moon Temple" and it's a replica of the real Parthenon in Greece.

order< Joi: Yes, I have heard this, too. That would definitely put me in lifetimes dealing with the American Revolutionary War, the Civil War time period, some time period in England when knights were present, building of pyramids, whatever that time period is ... and probably some life time in South America, as I have absolutely NO desire to visit there. ahahaha ... Just to list a few. *G

order< Joi: What made me think of this (and don't laugh) is the symbolism in the Bible, the story of the Israelites (spiritual energy) enslaved in Egypt making bricks ... then need for a release of this energy through Moses' intervention. (I know it sounds strange, but that's the symbolism that came to mind) *shrugs* Imagine if all the buildings still standing, all the manifestations of some soul or souls, held soul in attachment in some way? *G

Joi< order: In ESP Classes I have learned that the "periods in history we identify with intensely" we were there!

order< Yikes! Would make that law of Moses understandable: "Make not ANY graven image or any likeness of anything in the earth, or above the earth, or below, etc." Also would be a scary thought for us who are soooo into building and creating things. (sighs)

[Ben< Joi, order: The attraction is in the entities, not the artifacts. In other words, souls are attracted or attached to people or places or objects by their own desires. Detachment therapy is designed to help them release or change those desires.]

[Ben< I have retained the following side conversation because the issue of what is right and wrong (morals and ethics) is a fundamental aspect of past life therapy. I will re-emphasize one point: a past life therapist should try to learn what the person actually believes is right and wrong during the regression experience.]

order< God help us when the concept of "no right, no wrong" hits the masses of society!!! (shivers) Hell on earth!!! *G

ODusty1< order: Perhaps it is all just semantics, and next time we should try to understand each other better by making sure we use the same definitions for words.

order< ODusty1: Yes, but these words are not new ... really need no definition. *Hugs*

ODusty1< order: But perhaps wrong means something different to me than "not being your highest self" -- like the world often wraps a major negativity to the word "wrong" -- that is why I prefer to avoid it.

order< ODusty1: You may apply the word any way you wish, but it is a valid word ... wrong to murder, wrong to abuse, wrong to hurt, wrong to do anything with ill or unloving intent. There still are rights and wrongs. (imho)

ODusty1< order: If you wish to define it as such, then I will not argue with you.

kola< order: No right, no wrong does not abdicate personal responsibility.

serena< kola: Thank you ((((((hug))))))) "No right, no wrong does not abdicate personal responsibility." // order: That is an answer that each One must find within Our Self. WE are accountable for Our Own actions and must follow accordingly, but you are getting into semantics, my friend. Listen to the message, NOT the words, dear heart. ~~SSSS~~

order< serena: Translation: LOVE kills, murders, starves, wages wars ... is this what you are telling me? *G

serena< order: There is NO right OR wrong, period! As whisperwind just said, ALL there is is LOVE, pure and Divine LOVE. Knowing this, believing this, and understanding this is what Our lives are ALL about. The trials and tribulations are only here so We know what it is like to live in this Dualistic plane of illusion. LOVE IS ALL ... no right, no wrong ... just IS. Limits are placed when One puts their judgments on such. LIVE EXPERIENCE. Know when we make choices. Some maybe after experiencing them would not want to make that particular choice again, but it has NOTHING to do with the polarity UNLESS you just really want to experience that, order, and I respect your belief. *S*

order< serena: Then you are saying that LOVE is right?? *G

serena< order: LMAO LOL You are so cute, you know that? NO, what I am saying is LOVE IS ALL, period, bar none. LOL

order< serena: The message "There are no rights and wrongs" is a scary one to me. I may understand your meaning and intent, but will others in society? No. I will never ever agree to promote this concept, even though I may understand your meaning. Words in this dimensional plane ARE important, especially when they are put in print and casually stated without any real explanations. (imho)

serena< order: You get the last word. LOL You are so precious. But yes, I understand what you are saying, but like I said, accountability, responsibility, all plays in to this; however, I will leave it as such and ((((hug)))) You. LOL