23. Beauty
Session 1
Spiritual Web Chat
Sat 12 Feb 2000

Ben< ALL: Tonight is the first session of a new seminar. The subject is beauty. What is beauty? Where does it come from? What can be done with it? Is there an underlying reason why some things are beautiful and some are not? Is it all just cultural conditioning? Is there any such a thing as a sense of beauty?

Ben< ALL: Yes, I know Socrates said beauty is in the eye of the beholder. That's why I think it is an appropriate subject for a seminar on spirituality. Ready? Let's go.

FreeLoveFloating< There is beauty in all. There are no limits to the perception of it, except for the limits imposed by the self and/or cultural upbringing. I shall interject here and there, and listen to the rest.

misstree< Ahhhh, beauty, a most interesting topic *vbs* and most suitable for spiritual discussion. Beauty is a set of aesthetic parameters or conditions deemed to be pleasing to the senses ... highly mutable and suggestive on both cultural and personal levels.

Ben< QUESTION 1: Here comes a man wearing a red hat, red scarf, yellow coat, blue epaulets, purple vest, green-and-red striped trousers, and grey shoes. Is he beautiful? or what? YOUR TURN

greyman< He is quite colorful.

FreeLoveFloating< *laughing joyfully* He is magnificently BEAUTIFUL! Specially when he holds his head high ... :O))

myalba< Zoot suit, eh? Well, subjectively, it is relative to the eyes of the beholder; however, does it look good? does it make sense? back to the eyes of the beholder! In it's own way, it is or may be beautiful.

Yopo< *LOL* Not my idea of beautiful, but he is certainly gonna be noticed.

FRAML< Beautiful? No. Gaudy, yes. At least his clothes. However, his features have not been mentioned. And also there is the inner beauty of a person, which one knows only from knowing them, and that is currently out of your scope.

guitarist< Ben: What shades of these colors are you talking about? Is there any subtlety to them? The grey shoes definitely have to go. *s* The saturation level is really important here. Too much is garish; a moderate amount probably would help these colors not clash too much together -- but that would be really difficult, especially with the trousers. Probably would have a very comical effect altogether.

misstree< He's certainly colorful, but I would need more information to be able to decide whether I found him beautiful. Is there harmony in the tones, how are the colors composed over his body, how do the colors look on his body, how does his physicality contribute or detract from the outfit?

FreeLoveFloating< He is one I may grab and begin dancing with on the street, should his energies be inviting. Beauty is as Beauty does. :O))

Ben< I would say the man's clothing is colorful, garish, showy, funny-looking -- but not beautiful.

misstree< Ben: That is of course your subjective opinion about his lack of beauty *lol* though probably most in this room would agree since we probably tend to base our opinions upon the same set of ideals of harmony and grace that compose beauty. *vbs*

FreeLoveFloating< *sigh* I am afraid I am out of my league here. :O((

Ben< FreeLoveFloating: Nah, not out of your league. I'm posting these questions with a playful intent. There are no wrong answers to these questions. *S*

LEGS< Beauty to the eyes ... the colorful garb ... sounds like a uniform ... can be pleasing ... but beauty of spirit is something else. We have lost a beautiful man from our world today ... Tom Landry died of complications following surgery.

myalba< Objectively, he/it is beautiful (child of god) in whatever dress code he chooses?

Sprinkles< I would say a real eye-catcher. Beautiful to the extent of freedom of expression in one's taste in clothing. :)

myalba< In a line of a song: "Everything is beautiful in it's own way."

Ben< QUESTION 2: There sits a bird with a red head, red neck, yellow shoulders with a patch of blue on each shoulder, purple chest, green-and-red striped body and tail, and grey feet. Is he beautiful? or what? YOUR TURN

misstree< Good second question. *lol* Which begs the question: do we apply different standards in different contexts?

Yopo< I would probably think the bird beautiful. Most things of nature are. Form and function are usually in harmony there.

misstree< Yopo: You hit upon a good point: our perceptions of beauty are partly based upon harmony and balance. *s*

myalba< Yes, in my opinion, a most beautiful bird. Although the color match or combinations may be out range of the norm, nevertheless, unique and beautiful.

greyman< I never met a bird that I did not like, except for a buzzard or two.

guitarist< Maybe it's my TERN. ;-) Are you describing some sort of parrot? I would probably find it beautiful, because the colors would be blended in better than those of the man in the suit.

FRAML< Since we know that animals are always correct, it is beautiful. *G* However, the shading and blending of feathers is gentler than the sharp color lines I imagined on the man's clothes. However, he sounds like a buzzard, and they are not beautiful.

Sprinkles< Bird is a real eye catcher, beautiful in the freedom of nature's given colors. (Reason possibly for protection)

greyman< Ahhh, the concept: Beauty can be interpreted as a "universal" and the effect becoming some type of desire. To experience, possess, internalize.

misstree< greyman: Can you explain what you mean a bit more?

greyman< Sure, misstree. We all know the word beautiful. The universal understanding is, that which is appealing. We desire that which is beautiful, and are repelled by ugliness. Perspective helps us perceive our interpretation of our reactions. We follow our desires and are repelled by our dislikes.

misstree< greyman: Thanks. *s*

tiggerlily< greyman: One of the best teachers I had in life is a woman named Maggie who was disfigured in a fire. At first I was scared to look at her. But she was the most positive person I ever met in my entire life. She taught all around her something. She was so beautiful ... but that beauty I felt in my heart, not in my eyes.

LEGS< I nearly walked right up to a robin today ... and though he was much less colorful, he was beautiful. Birds are the showiest of God's creatures, are they not?

Ben< I would say the bird is beautiful. Colorful, garish, showy -- and beautiful.

selki< Beauty is that which is pleasurable to any individual, whether is it visual, auditory as in harmonious sounds, perhaps music, inner beauty of a person's character, or an experience that would create everlasting memories of happiness.

misstree< selki: Excellent description. *s*

guitarist< misstree: I think, as you do, that we apply different standards to different contexts. Consider the color chartreuse: bad on a rug, but good on a flower?

misstree< guitarist: Indeed, we do apply different standards in different contexts, and many of those standards are culturally defined, though we do tend to accumulate our own version of the ideal beauty which is built upon our experiences. *s*

Yopo< guitarist: *G* Chartreuse was pretty questionable on my grandfather's '52 Ford, by ANYBODY'S standard.

misstree< Yopo: Now that's really a question of taste, which is most definitely culturally defined within even more rigid parameters than beauty. *vbs*

tiggerlily< Beauty depends perhaps on perception. If I were blind, and met the man in tacky clothes, but talked to him and had a conversation in which he showed humility, compassion or grace, I might perceive him -- from a soul level -- as beautiful ... a beautiful person ... meaning beauty as what values you have not based on visual perception.

FRAML< tiggerlily: Yes, to say that "beauty is in the eye of the beholder" is a statement showing one's prejudice for sightism and therefore is to be avoided, so that the differently sighted folks aren't insulted. *G*

tiggerlily< FRAML: I am fascinated by alternative ways of perception. One thing about our cyberworld is that it is an alternative or experimental way of perceiving one another. Here you do not have to have a face to be beautiful. We speak with hearts ... and energy ... and perceive from that place.

LEGS< For instance ... greyman is a name that does not sound very colorful, and if you attach colorful as a prerequisite of beauty, then not beautiful ... Yet, I know greyman to be beautiful of spirit and grace.

greyman< LEGS: *vbs and blush*

FreeLoveFloating< Might I ask, when was the last time any of you saw a man with a disfigured face, and it almost made you nauseous, yet you saw the beauty there? You wanted to share in it, therefore spoke to him, bid him a good day? Beauty is more than what you are all speaking of. True beauty, you have yet to touch on. In Love ...

misstree< FreeLoveFloating: But the real challenge, my friend, is to find the beauty in the disfigurement, not to overcome your aversion to the disfigurement. All forms contain beauty if we have eyes to see it. *vbs*

guitarist< FreeLoveFloating: I think Ben will get to the spiritual part ... hopefully soon.

FreeLoveFloating< guitarist: It is NOT spiritual to see beauty in all. It is in being aware. There is no separation between spiritual and physical. If there is, then incorporation needs to be tended to. *S*

misstree< FreeLoveFloating: How do you know it's not spiritual to see beauty in all?

FreeLoveFloating< misstree: What I meant in my post was that it does not take spirituality to see beauty in all. People have a way of separating spirituality from themselves. It is awareness that creates sight. I am having a hard time getting my point across, because I do not intellectualize a lot on what IS. I just flow with it, experience, and AM. I shall keep my opinions to myself now. In Love ...

misstree< FreeLoveFloating: Thanks for clarifying yourself. *vbs*

guitarist< FreeLoveFloating: I was responding to your statement that we weren't considering inner beauty, only outer. I think that we will, yet.

FreeLoveFloating< guitarist: Why separate them? It is one and the same. (Okay, now I will keep my opinions to myself.) *sneaks back into the shadows to listen*

swami< Depends on whether you are looking for physical beauty, or a beauty within, or whether your belief is that God is All, in which case there is nothing that is not beautiful.

ewfsrb< I have and I do see beauty in even those who don't know it exists in themselves. I have just uncovered my own beauty. I picked up a guitar, and the vibrations bring my heart to places it's never seen before. Does anyone here play any sort of music?

guitarist: ewfsrb: I play the guitar.

ewfsrb< guitarist: Do you find that when you pick your guitar up and play it outside the earth's soul feels your beauty and responds to your touch?

misstree< ewfsrb: You touch upon an interesting point. Beauty (visual and sonic especially) is often about harmony, so part of our choice of what is beautiful will be based on if that particular note or color resonates with us vibrationally.

ewfsrb< I love that you said that, misstree. The beauty in this world is harmony, and life is a constant flow of it.

misstree< ewfsrb: The kicker is, though, that there can be beauty in dissonance too. *lol* And to answer your question, love and joy make me feel beautiful (though a good haircut can help, too. *lol*)

ewfsrb< What does dissonance mean?

Yopo< Dissonance is a lack of harmony. Parts of a thing that are at odds with each other. It produces a sense of tension ...

misstree< ewfsrb: Dissonance is when a note or color is out of harmony or is discordant (can mean a lack of agreement). So think about that in terms of music or color, something that clashes, sometimes subtly and sometimes spectacularly.

Ben< QUESTION 3: If your answer to Question 1 wasn't the same as your answer to Question 2, why were your two answers different? YOUR TURN

guitarist< Good Question 3! I think Yopo, FRAML, Sprinkles and Legs, at least, touched on the reason I found the bird beautiful, but the man less than beautiful in appearance ... nature. G-d's creation. "The lily is clothed with more beauty than the robes of King Solomon ... " or so I remember it.

Sprinkles< The man's clothing was of his choice; the bird's nature's. The man can choose; the bird not. Therefore, his taste in attire was questioned, not the man himself. The bird was given his colors by nature's choice.

Jello< Although, of course, colors tend to evolve through birdie choice (or evolved choice ... a lot like generally hardwired human preferences.)

myalba< "In the eyes (or lack thereof) of the beholder" must take on a broader meaning, and the god presence makes beauty relative to the eyes of the beholder, from his vantage point, subjectively objective!

tiggerlily< Depending on this man ... on his intent and energy ... his choice of clothing might strike me as creative and bold. I might think that choice is a beautiful choice, depending on if it is authentic to him.

guitarist< tiggerlily: A clown cheering up children in a hospital might be a good context for beauty for the man. Am I on the right track?

tiggerlily< guitarist: Sure ... or maybe he's a black blues musician and just in his element and ready for a gospel number. He might be more accurately joyful than beautiful, but to me joy is beautiful. I see what you mean ... physical beauty is just one feather on the bird of beauty.

LEGS< tiggerlily: I agree, it is not the eyes that perceive the lasting beauty of someone, but the heart or spirit ... or perhaps the spirit led heart?

greyman< tiggerlily: Yes, and I am not worthy to be Steven Hawking's graduate student.

tiggerlily< greyman: *S* Well, he's certainly not physically beautiful ... but he did marry his nurse. Kinda romantic, don't you think? I would not make it as his grad student either. I'd have to go back and take high school math. I still have nightmares about not "getting" it in Algebra II and having no one to explain things to me.

greyman< tiggerlily: Mathematics is on my top ten for beauty.

misstree< greyman: hehe, you might be closer to a particular truth than you know. Many cultures have had mathematical equations for beauty. *vbs*

Yopo< Hmm ... I dislike affectation. The man is dressed as if he is the military dictator of Lunatovia. The bird is just being what it truly is ...

misstree< Yopo: But what if this man's clothes truly expressed his soul ... no affectation? You do not judge the bird by his feathers, but you judge the man by his? *s*

Yopo< misstree: Good point. Maybe he IS the dictator of Lunatovia. *S* And there IS something to be said for deliberately defying expectation.

selki< misstree: Beauty to me isn't just visual. There are other stimulants that create an individual's impression of what they feel beauty is. The spectrum of beauty is so broad, we can never assign only one constant. The most "beautiful beauty" to me is knowing the inner beauty of someone.

misstree< selki: Quite agreed. *s* I've personally found that once you 'see' (in the non-optical sense) someone's inner beauty, you also see it externally. Have people not had the experience of falling in love with someone that on first glance you found rather plain but upon getting to know them, they became ravishing beauties? *lol*

tiggerlily< Synch on falling in love, misstree.

Emerge< Beauty (to me) is grayed beauty is bright beauty is what you see when you look without a blinded eyesight. Love to all. And, if you are blinded, eyesight. Then that's for you to see, no judging here. Beauty is where ever you choose to see. Once I was on my way home from a visit to Nevada. I didn't see the beauty of the desert until on the bus. I had problems there that I had to conquer not by turning away but by facing them without fear but great wonder.

myalba< What one sees with third eye is beauty? Would not yes be the conclusion!?

swami< To see beauty in All things is to see as God sees -- to realize your own Divinity -- to see beyond the outer trappings into the beauty and perfection of creation -- to see the perfection we All are -- that is what is beautiful IMO.

myalba< Conclusion? "Everything is beautiful in it's own way"?

ewfsrb< I would like help. I find it hard to let myself be who I am, and the beauty in everyone and myself gets tucked away. I wonder, what makes all of you feel beautiful? Let me know if this is against the guidelines, please, to ask a question. I am not familiar yet with this setup.

Ben< ewfsrb: Hello! Welcome. Please ask that question again, right after the hour of (semi) guided discussion.

ewfsrb< I will do so. Thank you, Ben.

Ben< I said the man was funny-looking but the bird was beautiful. Apparently, I think those colors are appropriate for a certain species of parrot but not for a man.

Ben< COMMENT: Beauty is in the eye of the beholder -- but you could dissect all the eyes you wanted to and never find it that way. Beauty is deeper than that in me. This is why I was showing how I use questions about beauty as a tool for introspection. I use them to look into my own mind and heart, to see what are my semi-conscious and subconscious concepts of beauty. And that type of tool was the point of these three questions.

Emerge< Hmm ... Interesting tool to see. Tool in emotions and in perceiving beauty. You are all wonderful and beautiful just the way you are. Love to you. Thank you for listening.

Sprinkles< Ben: I agree. My experience of having encountered others I feel I have done a lot of growing from the thoughts and views of others in my life since childhood 'til now has made me see beyond the focus of my eyes to the focus of the person, and being fascinated with each and every individual.

LEGS< Actually, a certain 'comfortableness with self and one's own looks' can be intriguing, if not beautiful, and so we might later describe that person as beautiful ... when, if one dissected their features, they might find one or more that would not qualify as beautiful.

Ben< QUESTION 4: Suppose you are watching TV and see a woman figure-skating. Her every motion is absolutely perfect. Then you see her face -- and it is NOT pretty. Ugly, even. No doubt about it. Now, how would you tell someone what you saw on TV? How would you describe this figure-skater? Would you say you saw a beautiful dancer? Or an ugly woman dancing beautifully? YOUR TURN

Jello< Most people who have trained very hard and are inwardly disciplined reflect that in their faces, at least "in my eyes". :) ... so I'm sure a person doing stupendous figure-skating must have that "inner beauty" (not the hot sauce) reflected in the face.

tiggerlily< I'd say I saw a beautiful performance, probably. Interesting ... I would not focus on "ugly" ... I might note it, but find the truest beauty that I could describe. She might look beautiful to me anyway. When you "fall in love" with something, it looks beautiful to you regardless of visual stimuli sometimes.

ewfsrb< If the beauty inspired me, I would see her as a beautiful woman that skated beautifully.

FRAML< Hmm ... ugly face? How's her body? Is it the person or the performance one is focusing on? I've seen figure skaters who weren't "great lookers" but their grace and poise on the ice was what I was focusing on. Just as a "femme fatale" who can't stay on her feet would be a joke in a figure skating demonstration.

greyman< The "animal" part of my being would be overridden by a beautiful talent. I am glad that most figure skaters wear tights (covering the many practice leg scars) *g*.

guitarist< I would say that I saw a beautiful dancer, particularly if she were smiling or in some other way radiating the beauty from within.

myalba< Again same answer. If her form is beautiful, then it's all beautiful. The beauty of her performance cannot be negated by her perceived facial lack of beauty. imho, she is a beautiful dancer.

misstree< Curious as to why so many think the face is the focus of defining beauty?

LEGS< The figure skater, like some ballerinas, might radiate beauty in action, and yet be strikingly un-beautiful ... but memorable ... unforgettable ... intense. It is often striving to overcome one's personal looks that leads to near perfection in the chosen activity.

Ben< Okay, good thoughtful answers to Question 4. As I said, there are no wrong answers in my seminars, but I do want to stimulate your thinking, and perhaps expand the envelope.

WhisperW< "Beauty before you" is a wish or a prayer that all you behold reflect the beauty that is you.

Ben< I would say I saw a beautiful dancer, because I see a difference between beauty of form and beauty of function. (I plan to do more with this difference next week.)

FRAML< Ben: But we all wait for "the fat lady to sing" and it is the beauty of her voice usually, not the size of her body, one is focusing on. (Good Old Wagnerian operas.)

Sprinkles< I would say a beautiful dancer. Because that is what in fact she performed to perfection. I don't think the features would be the reason for watching the dance.

myalba< Case in point: while looking for a parking place in Balboa Beach, I was following a beautifully built blond on a bicycle for a couple of blocks. She was a perfect 10 from behind. When she turned around, I was shocked at her seeming lack of beauty on her face. However, I treated her with the same dignity and respect that I would give to a "10". We became friends, and over the next 5 years I discovered she was truly a beautiful person.

ewfsrb< Beautiful. Are we still in discussion or not?

tiggerlily< ewfsrb: What makes one feel beautiful? Good question. I am going through a mid-life review. When I was younger, I was more biological beautiful. I was wired, I guess, biologically to attract certain things. I had no idea I was beautiful. I thought I was ugly. Now that I am not in the biology race, I find myself bereft somewhat and confused, but somehow I know it is my character that has to take the front seat as beautiful. However, I also dislike feeling things like out of shape ... or unhealthy ... so it is a new commitment to self care that I am taking ... and in this, perhaps a new health can help me feel "beautiful"... but not young girl beautiful ... just taking care of myself as best I can.

Ben< ALL: The server is slower than I expected, so I'm running late. I have one more question for tonight, and will go ahead and post it.

Ben< QUESTION 5: Suppose you're teaching a class of fifteen-year-olds. The subject for today is art appreciation, so you talk about beauty. One of the girls comes to you after class and asks, "Don't you think we're the most beautiful now, that we'll ever be?" What do you say to her? And why do you say it? YOUR TURN

ewfsrb< I would say I have thought that very same thing, but I came to the conclusion that being alive makes me beautiful as it does all of us. And I believe that we project the image of ourselves as we imagine ourselves to be.

guitarist< Ben: You were an art teacher? My, but you do surprise. *g*

[Ben< guitarist: No, I wasn't an art teacher, as most people would think of that role. This was a Sunday School class. The subject was art appreciation, but I was teaching the art of appreciation. *smile*]

Jello< Ben: I think I know the story you're getting to, so no comment other than "physical beauty is hardly everything."

tiggerlily< I would say there are different seasons of beautiful ... and that you are now very beautiful, and it will change in many ways, but you can always be beautiful.

myalba< If one removes desire and lust from the equation, then the sense of purity that comes with being 15 could lead one to say that they are as beautiful (in form) as they will ever be (generally speaking); however, there are exceptions and pretty is as pretty does!

misstree< Hehe, I'd ask her if she'd slept through the whole class. *lol*

Jello< OK, I lied. I will comment. I remember seeing a magazine cover of a man convicted of a crime ... and the impression I got was of darkness and ugliness. Then I saw a picture of former President Carter on a different cover, smiling ... it was a radiant cover.

LEGS< I would truthfully tell the young fifteen year old girl that beauty develops daily ... and grows with one ... that the appropriate beauty for her age is indeed well represented by her and her friends, but that their mom's are quite beautiful as well ... and their grandmoms? Well, who can hold less reverence for beauty because it is found in the aged?

ewfsrb< I am a 17 year old girl, and maybe this is the most beauty I will ever see in myself, but many people have thought that I am not beautiful, but when I see myself, I see a beautiful body.

tiggerlily< Why wouldn't you continue to be beautiful? Is aging unbeautiful? Well, I think you'd just get better and better personally, ewfsrb.

greyman< Ben: *SMILE* Well, sir, sometimes it is OK just to say nuttin'.

FRAML< Ben: I'd avoid answering that, out of fear of getting hit with a sexual harassment suit, or a statutory rape charge, if the girl decided she didn't like my answer.

ewfsrb< FRAML: lol I have a feeling she wouldn't. Then what would you say?

Jello< Wow, FRAML, do you think things are really that bad??

tiggerlily< FRAML: Oh, come on ... put on your wise and loving father hat and answer the question.

FRAML< Jello & tiggerlily: Not that bad (I hope), but I don't know what I would say. And I probably would avoid answering it, if I were in the setting Ben gave. However, if it were someone I knew who was a family friend, I'd probably say something along the lines of what LEGS posted.

LEGS< Dear FRAML, I hate it that people must guard their answers, even those that might help someone, because of the rampant civil suits ... of harassment.

Jello< When lawsuits threaten, try for Inspiration!

Yopo< I would tell her that her definition of beauty will deepen with the passage of years, as will the lines in her face. I wouldn't expect her to understand or believe that, though.

guitarist< I would say "It depends on what kind of beauty we're talking about. Physically, you are probably at your most beautiful. But you are not going to be fifteen forever. It would behoove you to look at other kinds of beauty ... such as that of a lined face that has laughed and loved much ... beauty of talent, such as the picture you drew today ... beauty of thought, word, deed. It is easier to find ugliness among people than beauty, but we find what we look for." Why? Because simply answering "Yes" will (1) confirm the cultural bias toward youth, and (2) not last long for her. As she gets older, she will find herself uglier if she can't see the beauty in what she and others are becoming. Americans (I can't speak for others) tend to believe that maturity = ugliness. This is self-destructive in the long run, if we have the luck, smarts and blessing from G-d to live long enough to see it. (Sorry for the long post.)

Ben< guitarist: Excellent post. Thoroughly thought out and clearly stated. Thank you.

Sprinkles< I would tell her that we are beautiful -- but, to learn to see what others can and do see in their perception of beauty, can enhance your own beauty to it's fullness. Knowing beautifulness in it's glory.

Ben< This scenario happened to me 33 years ago. I said to her "I see many different kinds of beauty, and I think you girls will become more and more beautiful as you grow older." She smiled sweetly and walked away. I said that because I wanted to expand her concept of beauty and her view of her future. I wonder what she thinks about this now that she is 48 years old.

tiggerlily< I love your answer, Ben!!!!!!

Yopo< Who would deny that Olympia Dukakis or Jessica Tandy were beautiful as elderly women? Beauty shined in spite of the ravages of time.

tiggerlily< Yopo: How about Lena Horne ...

Yopo< tiggerlily: Indeed! And there is something sad about trying to artificially maintain the appearance of youth as one ages, rather than enhancing the beauty that comes with age. Somebody said something earlier about dissonance? *S*

guitarist< Yopo: Olympia Dukakis, Jessica Tandy, and Lena Horne (and I can name many others) are excellent examples of why age should not be considered a negative.

Jello< (And my final point to the Carter anecdote is that spiritual beauty, when etched into every line of a kindly face, is an amazing thing. And often it takes age and experience to truly bring that out in a face.)

ewfsrb< Aging is what you make of it, just as youth can be. I guess I am basically saying it is all in the person.

misstree< Thanks to all for sharing their eye on beauty ... must be off for beauty sleep. *lol*

Jello< What's amazing is that certain types of beauty can be seen just through text ... like in a chat. Like seeing so many comments that are supportive of those who are experiencing difficulty.

Ben< /topic Discussion of beauty

Yopo< I am thinking of an elderly man who came into my office some months back. Very old guy, who had dyed his hair raven black. *LOL* It gave the appearance that this vigorous growth of jet-black hair was sucking the very life out of the rest of him.

tiggerlily< Yopo: There is beauty in acceptance ...

Sprinkles< Yopo: What was your reaction, and did you say anything?

Yopo< Sprinkles: *S* I didn't say a word. I was too busy concentrating on not staring and keeping a straight face.

Sprinkles< Yopo: That reminds me of a so-called comedy about the person leaving the rest room with toilet tissue dragging behind them. Comical, yes, but sad, too. I would more than likely laugh, but go to the tissue and remove it. I would also have taken the man aside and, in a polite way, conversed with him, saying what I am not sure -- I would have to be there. If I was the one, I would appreciate some honesty on or in behalf of my self. Not to say you should have, just mho. *S*

Yopo< It reminded me of a similar experience with my late uncle, Max. He bought a cheap toupee, and wore it to a family dinner. Everyone was trying to avoid looking at him. It looked like some sorta little animal perched on top of his head.

LEGS< But Yopo, there are many great hair pieces today that can't be detected, and men should care how they look, also. *s* Although I love a nicely shaped bald head ... having been married to a bald man for a very long time. *s*

Jello< LEGS: I'm more for hygiene than looks, though to an extent aesthetics are nice. I like working at a place where the phrase "bad hair day" will bring blank looks of, "What? Should I care about how my hair looks?" :-)

droagonstone< I realize I have stopped by late in this discussion, and only long enough to smoke a cigarette and see who is here. I would like to say, beauty is so subjective. What one finds beautiful, another finds horrid. True beauty is in the mind and heart. True beauty is the mountain lion taking down the stag. True beauty is a waterfall. True beauty is the maggot and the raven. All things in their way ...

Jello< I see a culture (American) that is sadly distracted by flash and form, so much so that, upon seeing something with more substance, mistakes the affinity for the flash and form.

FRAML< Jello: I agree with your comment on flash & form. It is one of the things that we can work at avoiding in our own lives, though. But teaching others how to do it -- Ah, there is the rub.

Jello< FRAML: Yes, indeed. But that's why the WWW is so wonderful (and dangerous, too).

LadyV< Yopo: I give up! I can get into PM faster than the on-line chat. I just opted to listen tonight.

Yopo< LadyV: *s* Same here. I've been bumped half-a-dozen times tonight. Made it hard to concentrate on the discussion.

Ben< LadyV: Hello, friend. Sorry about the slow server. It bogged me down, too, though not as much as it did you.

Jello< It'll be nice to see the whole thing on Ben's site (says the person who arrived late).

LEGS< (((((((Ben )))))))) Thanx for another good class. Did you say 'difference' is the subject? or that the subject will be handled with a difference next seminar?

Ben< LEGS: I plan to do more with the difference between beauty of form and beauty of function next time. With a twist. *S*

LEGS< Ben: *deliberately misunderstanding* Oh, I love the twist. It's a fun dance. *g* Actually, that sounds quite interesting ... and I'm eager to see your version of a twist with that subject. *s*

tiggerlily< I need to go, too. Thank you Ben ... this was a really very timely topic for me!

Ben< tiggerlily: Thank you, friend. Glad it was a timely topic for you. Good night.

FRAML< tiggerlily: Blessings to you & Remember to count them before you sleep.

guitarist< Goodnight, all who are leaving. Blessings on all of you.

FRAML< I guess I'll call it a night as well and go get my "handsome" sleep. (Only ladies have beauty sleep).

Jello< Oh, come on, FRAML, I think you and I both know a certain amazing "guy" who is commonly described as "beautiful". :)

FRAML< Jello: ????????

guitarist< Jello: Who could that "amazing guy" be? *LOL*

Jello< I think guitarist is in on it! *LOL*

Ben< FRAML: You reminded me of a story. Years ago in SAC, my crew was on alert. I went down the hall to the shower room wearing a towel and carrying my soap and washcloth. As I passed one of the other rooms, a wise-guy yelled "Hey! Ben! Where ya goin?" I said "Down the hall to get beautiful." And he said "Take a lunch!"

FRAML< BEN: ROTFL!!!!!!!!!!!!!

guitarist< Ben: My husband would have done similarly in your situation. *LOL*

LEGS< Ben: You got me grinning now. *s*

Sprinkles< Why is it that, if a lady's slip is showing, for instance, or a man's fly is open, people will approach or point this matter out, discreetly or otherwise. But they limit themselves where the sense of humor in regard to another is kind of a refreshing moment to let linger as long as possible?

Jello< Sprinkles: Unfortunately I didn't quite understand the question ...

Sprinkles< Jello: Aaaah, forget it. *S*

Yopo< LEGS: *S* As one who has a personal interest in the subject of hair-loss *ahem* I am decidedly opposed to the concept of toupees. I guess I consider the preoccupation with the presence or absence of hair a result of efforts to extract money from people by promoting and exploiting unnecessary insecurities. I feel the same way about dangerous surgical procedures done solely for cosmetic purposes -- breast implants, face lifts, liposuction, etc, etc, etc. Even risky eye surgery done solely to dispense with glasses. Totally nuts, in my opinion. As my hairline recedes, I will think of Yul Brynner and Patrick Stewart, rather than The Hair Club for Men. *G*

Ben< Yopo: Well said. And that certainly is germane to the subject of beauty. Obsession with some concepts of beauty can be used for what amounts to extortion.

LEGS< Yopo: Sure glad you're not having any breast implants right away. *G* Now ... me ... I am in awe of liposuction, but having read the follow-up procedures. have decided that beauty for me is perhaps more of me than less. *G*

FRAML< LEGS: I remember getting some tremendous lip o'suction once from a gal.

guitarist< Yopo: I saw your picture last night on your site, and I totally agree with you. But to have the Yul Brynner look, you'd probably have to shave your head. What do you think of that? *g*

Yopo< guitarist: HA!

FRAML< Yopo: Yes, how much to pay for a toupee?

guitarist< FRAML: It must be well past my bedtime not to see your play on to-pay and toupee.

FRAML< guitarist: Now you've gotten me on a pun-roll.

Jello< Mmmm ... pun-roll. Lightly toasted, with golden sesame seeds, and some butter.

Yopo< FRAML: I am quite sure my Uncle Max must have paid about $19.95. *LOL* (Someone apparently found a use for road-kill possum pelts. )

Jello< Yopo: Alas, we live in a society where cosmetic appearances can lead to jobs lost or jobs gained ... though if it's a job lost, then perhaps all the better that way (go to a better place where they care about the inside more).

FRAML< Jello: But a good income if you develop and successfully market a line of cosmetics. *G*

Jello< FRAML: Hmmm, I think I do see what you mean. :)

Yopo< Jello: Ah, is that ACTUALLY true, or are we only conditioned to BELIEVE that it is?

Jello< Yopo: You mean jobs lost, etc? I did read about a study that showed that tall men were more likely to be promoted or to be higher ranked or some-such. Unless there's a genetic link between height and pure charisma ...

Yopo< Jello: Ah, I guess I remember reading about the "tall guy, high stature" thing myself. And those expressions, like "people look up to him". In Egyptian wall paintings, the Pharaoh is always painted larger ... I suppose some cultural conditioning goes very deep.

FRAML< And don't forget those who "ride high in the saddle" or "get on their high horse." *G*

Yopo< Jello: Maybe tall guys buy into the stature thing themselves, and it increases their self-confidence.

Jello< Yopo: And I have heard anecdotes of people hired just for their looks. We could enter the arena of racial issues, too ... or gender issues.

guitarist< Jello: I agree with you about the race and gender issues. That's a whole 'nother seminar. *s*

Jello< Isn't it, though? :)

guitarist< Jello and Yopo: I saw a film in a communication research class that dealt with the reaction people had toward people they perceived as attractive, versus people who weren't so attractive in their eyes. Attractiveness correlated strongly with perception of competence, being chosen, and higher salary. One pair of women and one pair of men were used. The thing I found nefarious about this experiment was that one person of each pair was groomed meticulously to be the attractive one, and the other's bad features were emphasized to make him/her look worse than they actually did. I wonder what would have happened if they had reversed the roles -- had the previously unattractive person become the attractive one, and vice versa.

Ben< guitarist: Another excellent point.

Jello< guitarist: Yes, also saw an article about how people tend to marry within their approximate "attractiveness range." Scary, huh? But I personally don't like people who are at the top of American society's "attractive scale." They aren't that attractive to me at all!

Yopo< guitarist: I suppose maybe I just don't want to admit that we unconsciously put so much emphasis on superficialities.

Jello< I know I have my own perception biases, but I'm going to keep fighting them and learn how to REALLY see people. Not everyone's the same, of course, but there are some criteria that work, and some that are just broken stereotypes.

Yopo< Jello: *S* Much of my own opinions and perspectives were formed during the anti-establishment 60's era. I am automatically suspicious of well-groomed people in business suits. There IS an absurdity to what people place emphasis on. I once had an older female co-worker tell me very seriously that the first thing she looked at in judging a member of the opposite sex was his shoes. If they weren't polished, she wrote him off. HA!

Jello< Yopo: Very scary indeed! And I tend to share your biases. That said, I was going to comment that biological attractiveness sometimes seems a tad off the mark to spiritual or mental or even sometimes physical (!) attractiveness.

Yopo< Jello: Yeah, but I suppose that is to be expected. The business of biological attraction is the production of healthy children, so the emphasis on physical strength, agility, appearance of health, etc, is probably not surprising.

guitarist< But, Yopo, it's different with men. Men's faces can be rugged, baby-face, intelligent, and others I can't think of right now. All of these point to different types of men. Women's faces are scrutinized more and have more rigid requirements for beauty, I know not why.

Jello< Yopo: I meant facial attractiveness to a large extent, though some of that is ascribed to facial symmetry (which is a good genetic survival sign, apparently). So if anyone can prove that movie stars have better genes for survival, well, that'll explain that! :)

guitarist< Jello: The most famous and idolized movie stars don't have such a good survival rate. Did Marilyn Monroe, Jean Harlowe, and others like them have children? If they did, then we'd know!

[Mutual farewells as everyone still in the chatroom signed off for the night.]

23. Beauty
Session 2
Sat 19 Feb 2000

Ben< ALL: In ancient Greece, beauty was one of the central problems of philosophy: Why are some things beautiful and some not? More recently, emphasis shifted to rules for creating or interpreting good paintings, sculptures, poems, music, etc. Now aesthetics includes many aspects of art other than beauty. But this seminar isn't modern aesthetics. I am exploring the older questions. Ready? Let's go.

Ben< QUESTION 1: Suppose you have just returned from a month's vacation. You find the electrical power failed while you were away. You open the door of your well-stocked freezer. Everything in it is rotten. Is this a beautiful smell? Do you speak from experience? YOUR TURN

guitarist< I have never been on a month's vacation. But, I can tell you that a rotten food smell would catapult me right out the door! The only useful thing I can think of for it, particularly the vegetables, would be the compost pile.

twowinds< Interesting. For me, the "experience" of the un-beautiful smell could be a program, but looked at another way, perhaps the rotting smell is a reminder of my continuous recycling?

Sprinkles< No, it's not a beautiful smell. It is gross. I speak from experience. I make sure now that if I have to leave for an extended time I definitely will leave it free of food that will turn.

guitarist< The meat might as well be buried. I wouldn't know what else to do with it. As for whether the smell is beautiful, in both cases (vegetation and meat), I don't think so. I'm sure something (animal, plant, whatever) probably thinks it is, though.

LEGS< Speaking from experience (but a friend's freezer) ... it is a dreadful smell.

Ben< The smell of rotten stuff was no doubt more common in ancient Greece than it is now. That's why I had to invoke the freezer and power failure.

daCrone< Unpleasant aroma ... I think: "Uh, oh ... post note not to open freezer until plan to clean it is finalized."

twowinds< I think that we can find beauty in every thing, if we look beyond the surface.

DestinyB< The only beauty I can see in that is the fact that you'd be forced to clean out the freezer. Just one of those things. I have returned from vacation to find my stained glass lamp's chain broken and a dent in the oak table where it had fallen.

guitarist< DestinyB: I think you're right. Sometimes we need a kick in the derriere to do something we have to do, but hate doing.

Lo< We've found a freezer that lost power while we were gone, and I can't imagine connecting any concept of beauty with THAT! Lots of work to get it all cleaned up enough to use again.

twowinds< Perhaps there is a lot of work to cleaning up our dead energy as well? Could be a beautiful representation.

guitarist< After being catapulted out the door, I might find something to cover/pinch my nose with, and go back in there to do the inevitable.

Ben< COMMENT: Some people say that everything is beautiful, but not everyone agrees with that statement.

Ben< QUESTION 2: Two people are watching TV. One switches to a nature program. Three lions are eating a zebra. One person says "That's beautiful" and settles down to watch. The other says "No, it isn't!" and jumps up and leaves the room. Which of these people represents what you would do? And what do you think of the other person? YOUR TURN

Yopo< Uh, I don't think I would react like either. Wouldn't find it beautiful, but wouldn't be horrified either. Each reaction seems to me like an opposite extreme.

guitarist< Yopo: Horror might seem to you an extreme reaction, but I associate the smell of rotten meat with death. Come to think of it, it *is* a dead body, and now it's decomposing. FRAML might say that that's what Beethoven is doing nowadays. *lol*

Ben< Yopo: Yes, I presented the extremes to provide contrast. Many people's reactions are somewhere between those extremes.

LEGS< Ben: I would not like to see the devouring of the zebras, either

Emerge< Interesting.

daCrone< I would not think 'beautiful' so much as 'interesting' ... and I would wonder about what the photographers were doing when they shot the footage. I would not necessarily leave the room, unless I was really queasy, but I might avert my eyes ... it depends.

Sprinkles< The beauty in the lions eating is that it is a natural thing for the lion to do. Younger, not having an understanding of it, I would definitely have gotten up and left. Having understanding now, it doesn't have the same effect. I will sit but just divert my vision on the close-ups.

DestinyB< I'd leave the room. Though it's the natural order of things for animals to kill and eat, participating in the food chain, I don't want to watch. It would also be hard for me to kill animals, even in order to eat for survival.

LEGS< I realize the dining of the lions is natural; it just wouldn't appeal to me. At the least, I would look away.

Emerge< I understand we all have to eat. I think maybe also that it's OK for the other person's reaction as well as mine. Animals are beautiful as people. Just one opinion.

Sprinkles< Isn't it kinda weird that one may turn away from such a scene, yet to look at a piece of raw steak is not the same? :)

Yopo< Sprinkles: *S* Most people think their steak originates in the grocery store.

Sprinkles< lol @ Yopo

Ben< I don't like to watch animals eating animals, and I think those who really do like to watch it are rather blood-thirsty. My wife immediately leaves the room. I think she's sentimental and tender-hearted, and identifies with the victim instead of the predator, and that's OK with me.

Lo< I would not agree that the scene is beautiful. Nature happens whether or not it is beautiful. If the lions were on the verge of starving, I suppose it would be satisfying that they had found something in their food chain to relieve their hunger. However, I would feel sorry for the zebra. I think both animals are beautiful in themselves, but not necessarily what they do.

Emerge< I guess we as two-legged critters have to eat somewhere, in restaurants or McDonalds. Some don't like slaughter of cows: eat chicken. Some don't like chicken: eat vegies. To life. Love you all.

guitarist< I have seen nature shows where lions are eating zebras, and have not left the room. However, I don't enjoy these scenes; I just consider that sometimes you bite the bear, and sometimes the bear bites you. I usually like it when the prey gets away.

Jello< Hmm, I dunno, I look at the "nuisance" Canada geese and often remark they look tasty. To a predator, I imagine the scene must look pretty mouth-watering. As a meat-eater, I must accept that I am also responsible for the deaths of many critters.

Emerge< Without running the risk of offending any religious denomination, sounding sacrilegious to them, I am thanking the animal that GAVE its life to feed my face (at least to me, this is also in my vocabulary) and God for providing the nourishment.

Jello< But if I had to kill an animal to eat it, I wouldn't, and I have trouble pulling up carrots because I feel sorry for them, so I must be a modern-era person to be so spoiled in terms of squeamishness in regards to survival.

guitarist< Jello: I often wonder also whether many people would eat meat if they had to kill it themselves. I probably wouldn't, either. But, as Emerge does, I thank G-d for providing the nourishment. My father once told me that kosher butchers are very gentle with the animals they slaughter (it's nothing like the knock on the head they get elsewhere) and thank the animal beforehand, as well as G-d.

Jello< This is interesting, because this topic came up earlier today. Someone else said thanking the organism for its life is appropriate (which I think it is), but I don't know if the organism willingly gave up its life -- more like we took it.

Emerge< Nor do I feel that the animal would understand consciously, but in the spirit, maybe. But I just kept the idea to myself. I respect the opinion of verbal gratitude and non- verbal.

Awenydd< I would salute the lion for following his path, doing what he knows to be his way. I would feel sorry for the zebra, but expect that the zebra understood his place. If he could not avoid the feast, then he must become the feast. It's sad, but it's life. I may or may not watch, depending on what I was doing and what is important to my life.

Emerge< Awenydd: I like that ...

Lo< If people are raised in an environment where their food supply comes from their own animals, raised and fattened for that purpose, eggs, garden vegetables, etc., I suspect that it seems natural to them; however, when it involves an animal that has become a pet, it's a different matter, even if it is a matter of survival.

DestinyB< Perhaps squeamishness at seeing animal innards is a culturally learned response to such a situation. I can't watch operations on the television, either.

Ben< ALL: I think both people in this scenario illustrate the fact that beauty comes from criteria (preferences) in the mind of each person, and isn't a property of the object to which it refers. Therefore, although we tend to think that concepts of beauty point to the objects they refer to, they actually point to the person who holds them.

Yopo< Hmm ... But would that also be so if we weren't discussing examples so prone to "push negative buttons" in some people? If we were talking about a colorful sunrise, for example, or a sea shell, or a flower?

Jello< Subjectively, it seems that those who see beauty in peaceful and conventionally beautiful things (as opposed to say, seeing beauty in crime) would also be perceived to have a more beautiful spirit/outlook.

Ben< QUESTION 3: I think this is an easy question, easily answered. At least, I hope so. Two old ladies are in a nursing home. Neither of them is about to win a beauty contest, especially not in a bathing suit. One looks out the window and says, "Oh! Come look! The trees are all covered with ice, with sunlight shining through! It's so beautiful!" The other old lady snorts "Nah! Been there. Done that. Seen it all" and goes back to bed. What does this scenario say about beauty -- and ugliness? YOUR TURN

Sprinkles< One perhaps has the need for more beauty sleep, the other prefers to be awakened by the beauty. :)

Emerge< Brrr. Cold. But I think ice is like crystalline wonder. When I went to Georgia once, the road was clear but everything else was covered in ice. It was magnificent. Yes, been there, done that, too. Wonder in the season.

LEGS< I admire people who can find beauty in whichever direction they look. My mom is one of them. She can rhapsodize over sunlight on a daffodil bloom.

guitarist< It says to me that the first lady still has vital life in her, and therefore is as beautiful as the trees she is appreciating. The second is probably ready for the grave, and her lack of caring makes her ugly. I would rather be the friend of the first than the second.

Yopo< One old lady has lost her sense of wonder. Her world is a dimmer place than that of the one who can still see with the eyes of a child.

daCrone< On the surface (because there may be reasons I don't know), one is open to experience; the other is less participatory. One has a sense of wonder; the other is more jaded. One looks out; the other does not feel the need.

Awenydd< I would say the ugly one is the one who sees ugliness.

Emerge< I don't know, maybe the second has been raised on "I don't care about the environment, just me" attitudes, and finding in her golden years it's hard to change it. But I apologize now, for I have judged her. Only to learn why, maybe.

Jello< Emerge: I think it is one thing to observe, another to judge. If one can't observe things like others' attitudes, then it is harder to help someone in need.

Emerge< Jello: So true! I apologized to a person that wasn't real -- but what if she had been? Would it be harsh of me to call her UGLY because she finds no muse in the seasons? To me, no.

Ben< COMMENT: Some people say that true beauty is inner beauty, and not outward appearance. Not everyone agrees with that, but it has considerable merit in light of the statement "Beauty is in the eye (mind, heart) of the beholder."

Lo< Perhaps the saying should be: "Beauty is in the eye (mind, heart) of the beholder and the eye (mind and heart) of the beheld."

Emerge< What is ugliness but a hidden path of uncompassionate unbalanced natures? They had lives. The light would be the beauty in seeing that both ladies are beautiful just the way they are. THANK YOU for letting me sit here tonight; it's been interesting. Thank you, BEN.

Ben< Emerge: You're welcome. *smile* I have one more question for tonight. I'll post it shortly.

guitarist< Maybe I should say the ATTITUDES of each woman are beautiful and ugly, respectively. But attitudes like these couldn't have developed overnight. They say something essential about the person. Naturally, if I found that one is much sicker than the other, or has suffered a blow that she is dealing with, that might change *my* attitude.

LEGS< I know little old ladies who bloom with love and youth ... and others whose mouths are so pursed from disapproving of others that they are not pleasant to look at.

Yopo< Yes. That which is loved is most often beautiful. What is beautiful is not always loved ...

DestinyB< One old lady may have lost her ability to see the beauty in everyday things. The other can still find the magic in living in the moment.

Lo< The one lady's cynicism suggests that she is in serious trouble in her inner attitudes. I feel sorry for her. I tend to find such scenes refreshing and always different somehow in some interesting way. I tend to disagree with guitarist a bit, in that the second lady is really NOT ready to die yet, but in even greater trouble if she passes on with such ugly attitudes. Guitarist is right on the importance of CARING though. Caring is the essence of what makes spiritual people so special.

guitarist< Lo: I can understand why you don't think the second lady is ready to die yet. I took the question as representing consistent attitudes on the part of both women; if this is a correct representation, then I think a person who is consistently negative -- especially an old one -- will feel its effects more strongly.

Lo< guitarist: Yes, I feel very sorry for the lady with the negative responses and enlivened by the other lady's joy.

Ben< QUESTION 4: Shortly before I left Vietnam, a group of the Vietnamese people I worked with gave me a farewell present. It was an ornamental Chinese table-lamp, like a pagoda, painted in very bright colors, with red tassels hanging down from each of its many turned-up corners. As soon as I saw it, I knew my wife wouldn't have it in the house, and it would wind up in our garage or basement. What do you think I should have done in that situation? And why? YOUR TURN

daCrone< You accept the lamp in accordance with the spirit in which it was offered.

Emerge< Sounds like a pretty lamp. I think if it were my husband, I would ask if he wanted it in the house, if it meant that much. But if it was too harsh a reminder, I would respect his wishes. War time isn't easy on anyone.

Yopo< Thank them profusely for their kindness, say truthfully that it is an object like no other, and that your wife will most certainly insist that it be kept in a special place in your home. *G*

twowinds< That was a great one, Yopo.

DestinyB< Ditto what Yopo said!

Jello< I guess it depends on what you want and how much say you think you can get in the interior state of the house?

daCrone< Why be kind about the lamp? It was offered in caring spirit ... you should not slap the givers in the face with the tassels ~ it would show you to be unworthy of the gift.

apples< Hmmm ... I would put the lamp in my workshop in the garage if I had one.

guitarist< Ben: I could be wrong, but I don't think you could have refused the gift without insulting these people. But you might have accepted the gift, and then bring it back home and give it to someone who would appreciate it and put it in its rightful place.

LEGS< Oh, Ben, there is no way you could have turned it down ... it was given in appreciation and meant to be a pleasing gift for you as well as useful ... but what you do with it later is your own business.

BLUEKNIGHT< And never insult the givers. What you do with it afterward is your choice.

Sprinkles< I have had an experience like that with my hubby. I too have had things that didn't appeal to the visual sense of my husband. We have learned to accept that our tastes are different at times, and we came to where we both have a "your collection, my collection" room. When room was not available, the item was stored until a decision or room was available. Mind you, there is a lot of collection going on here. (giggle)

Jello< Oh, whoops, the question is about what to do at the time when the lamp is offered ...

Ben< Jello: I didn't confine my question to what I should do at the time the lamp was offered.

Jello< Oh, OK. I sort of assumed you were the type who would accept it ... have too little data about your wife's views on house interiors.

donoma< Ben: Accept the gift graciously and thankfully. You don't need to use every gift, but certainly it would be in bad taste to turn it down.

Ben< ALL: Last time I said I would revisit the difference between beauty of form and beauty of function -- with a twist. Here is an example of how I think about such things. I offer it for your consideration. (continued)

Ben< ALL: When those Vietnamese people gave me the lamp, I remembered that red tassels symbolize blessings raining down from heaven. So I realized the intended function of that lamp was not only to light a room but also to convey a blessing. I mentioned that thought as I accepted it. They were very pleased. On the other hand, I knew my wife would think the lamp was gaudy, and I thought it was too nice a gift to wind up in our garage or basement, so I gave it to the old Vietnamese woman who cleaned our barracks. She was thrilled to tears. I thought to myself "The form is gaudy to Western eyes, but the function is beautiful to anyone who understands and appreciates the symbology" -- and went home feeling I had lived my respect for the individuals and cultures and their various concepts of beauty.

Ben< /topic Discussion of Beauty

daCrone< Perfect, Ben. *S*

Jello< I think that might be considered insulting to some givers, but if you think it was appropriate (and you have all the data), and it seems to have had a wonderful outcome, then great!

DestinyB< I like what guitarist said about finding the lamp a good home later with someone who would appreciate it. I used to be an antiques dealer and there are all kinds of tastes out there in this world. A friend once sold a hideous lamp made of fish scales. The funny part is that it sold in a matter of days of it's arrival in the shop. Everyone is so different!

apples< Perfect solution, Ben.

Jello< I know one person who gets a bit miffed if something given is then given away soon thereafter ... really depends on the person.

guitarist< Jello: I'm sure Ben was discreet about giving it to the old woman. At least he should have been! *s*

Ben< Jello: The Vietnamese people who gave me the lamp would understand what I did and why. They knew about giving a gift that can be given again.

Jello< Ben: Then perfect!

guitarist< Ben: I posted that about discretion before I saw that you had already taken their feelings into account ... and that they understood giving it to someone else again.

Emerge< Ben: Bet you made that Vietnamese woman's day. Love radiated when you said that.

Sprinkles< Ben: That was a great way to handle the situation of the lamp. The senses play a big part in beauty. Be it taste or smell, in sight or hidden, the feelings of stimulation of object or person all participate and can alter all of the perception of beauty in different ways to each individual.

Lo< Ben: Your response to the Vietnamese people was indeed beautiful -- BOTH times.

Awenydd< I have faced a similar experience. I bought a hand-woven prayer rug from some Kurdish refugees when I was in a operation supporting them. I found it to be very beautiful and special to me because of my memories and the fact that it is hand-woven and special to the people who made it. My wife doesn't think as highly of it, and it has resided in our garage all this time ... mainly because I am spineless and never conveyed how I felt about it. I realize we do many things to get along with our spouses and avoid conflicts. To me, the rug represents hard work, faith, and love. To her it is just another tacky souvenir. To the people I bought it from it represented their faith and probably a few meals. I suppose if they were willing to sell it to a westerner, they knew it couldn't possibly be appreciated for what it was, but if they could at least get some satisfaction out of it and please another (myself), they felt it had served its purpose ... which I feel it has ... for I have not forgotten them.

LEGS< Ah, Awenydd, telling your story helps those of us in the room share the beauty of the feelings conveyed by the facts behind the rug which made it meaningful to you.

Jello< Awenydd: You remind me of something I just read recently: when reminded of someone by something, pray for them ... so I bet you've been in some way praying for them whenever you remember the rug. Which is great, and one of the best reasons for keeping a material thing. (IMHO)

LEGS< For further discussion: How many of you have been in the presence of someone who made you feel beautiful ... and the glow lasts even when you just recall it years later?

Jello< LEGS: What kind of beauty? :) How does one make another feel beautiful? (I have some ideas, just wanted to expand the discussion.)

LEGS< I have read in some inspirational material that the habit of thinking in a certain manner will attract the things upon which you dwell to you ... like the idea that fearing something brings that which you fear to you ... so one would be wise to think on lovely and productive things, rather than the reverse if one is going to draw such to them.

Jello< LEGS: As long as one doesn't thus come to the conclusion that those suffering misfortune thereby deserve it ... yes.

Sprinkles< LEGS: With the meaning, "What you put out comes back. What goes around comes around." (agree) *S*

Jello< LEGS: Sorry for that last rather abrupt post; I was speaking from personal experience from having almost been led down that path. I do believe that what we "saturate our minds with" will affect what we do and say, and thus what we create and attract around us.

LEGS< Yes, Jello, that was the way I understood it as well.

Tracey< Beauty is the expression of loving others more than yourself. It shines from within you when it is true. The beauty of loving makes everyone feel beautiful. Gifts of the heart and soul are the most precious gifts of all. *S*

apples< Tracey: When something comes from the heart and soul and is sincere it often feels pretty beautiful. Music can be like that, even though you can't "see" it.

Tracey< apples: *VBS* Yes ... music makes my soul smile many times when my heart thinks it can't. *S*

apples< Tracey: If music can touch us in such incredibly beautiful places ... and it is basically non-visual, then it really is a statement about depth and sensitivity. I think that depth and sensitivity of feeling enhance beauty.

Sprinkles< apples: Because it comes from the heart and soul, doesn't necessarily mean it is beautiful. For example, an enraged person being very sincere in the expression of his or her heart doesn't come out beautiful (IMHO).

apples< Sprinkles: I know what you mean.

Jello< Sprinkles: Hmm, a person expressing sincere beliefs just comes across better to me, rather than someone hiding sincere beliefs behind a mask. The latter just comes across badly.

Yopo< Ben: Your comment about beauty-in-the-beholder's-eye reminds me of something similar that came up many sessions ago; about absolute measures of good/evil, as I recall. *S* I am still a proponent of the existence of absolutes, on some level. Some sort of idealist mind-set or something. Plato or Aristotle (can't remember which) sorta appealed to me, with the idea of a realm of idealized forms that underlie our less-than-ideal reality.

Ben< Yopo: Concepts of beauty are idealized forms, or functions, or symbols, etc. That's a lot of what the ancient Greeks were discussing and debating.

Yopo< Ben: Yes, I understand beauty in that way. *S* Similar to Ahab's thought about the white whale. It is not the form, but the thing behind the form ... Though it wasn't beauty that was on ol' Ahab's mind when he said that.

Jello< Yopo: Oh, you might like C. S. Lewis' essay on Transposition ... gotta check the title.

Yopo< Jello: I will maybe look that up. Have a few of C. S. Lewis' books around, though I don't know if that's in any of 'em. (Also have "The Chronicles of Narnia" sitting atop a 1930's radio at my bedside. *S*)

Jello< Yopo: Yes, it's "Transposition," and it's about how something very high and beautiful must by necessity lose some of its depth when brought down to a "lower medium" (extract from a web page I'm checking).

LEGS< Ben: Do appreciate you and your classes and examples for life ... thanx again ... and what will be next week's subject?

Ben< LEGS: I might be able to present another session on beauty -- but I'm not sure I need to. What do you think?

LEGS< I don't know, Ben. What are the effects of feeling beautiful? What can you do to make your acquaintances experience such beauty? How can thinking beautiful thoughts change one's general outlook?

Jello< Hmm, maybe a little more expansion on beauty of form vs. spiritual beauty? I dunno. The way so many can create form-wise beautiful pictures or text, yet the heart is rotten ... (been there, done that myself)

Ben< LEGS: Okay, I had several questions in the original set-up that we haven't really addressed. One was "What can be done with beauty?"

apples< Ben ... wow ... I am not sure, but I am going to think about that question. It is such a good question. I am a little sad because I am not sure I have ever had my defenses down enough to feel that in front of another person ... but it's never too late. I just love that question. Thinking about it now. I think this has come more through friendship than anything else.

Yopo< What can be done with beauty? Hmm ...

donoma< Ben: Enjoy it. *S*

DestinyB< Cherish whatever beauty you can find in your life.

Jello< I still have concerns about the issue of gauging spiritual beauty, for the twisted mind will find horror to be beautiful. Then again, broken minds are hard to reach.

Sprinkles< What can be done with beauty ... live it, love it, see it, feel it, be in awe of it, despise it, loathe it, tear it apart, put it together, charm it, scorn it, breathe it, etc. Are there limitations set on it ? Is it endless ?

LEGS< What indeed? Were we to become promoters of beauty, would we seek to run pageants such as the various "Miss" pageants? Or would we begin with our own minds, and purge that which is unlovely and depressing ... filling our lives and minds with what evokes beauty to us, for as Lo said, it is in the eye of the beholder. *s*

Yopo< LEGS: But there is a difference between attractiveness and beauty? Seems to me there is.

LEGS< True, Yopo, it can be different ... and that is where discernment comes into play again. Makes me think of the Broadway play about the exciting gambling coming to town ... very attractive but destructive to their mode of living.

guitarist< Yopo: I agree that there is a difference between attractiveness and beauty. The fascination for the grotesque, for example, is a form of attraction.

Jello< guitarist: Yeah, that's part of what I'm trying to think about. What draws a mind to, say, a travesty that most others would find reprehensible?

Sprinkles< Jello: Of course the honesty of another's feelings can be appreciated regardless of the beauty or ugliness. The beauty can be in the honesty and yet the ugliness can be portrayed. imho :)

Jello< Sprinkles: Yep! Beauty and ugliness mixed together. Some day it'll be nice to see beauty upon beauty without the ugliness.

Lo< There is something undefinable about real beauty that speaks deeply. I am thinking of some of the Greek sculptures, architectural innovations, etc., that I have been privileged to see with my own eyes. Perhaps there is something of an artist buried deep within each of us. I found some of the Roman "improvements" in style less than satisfying. For example, there was a lot of sensitivity about how to depict that Greek bronze Charioteer statue found at Delphi which showed his tenseness, pride, youth, etc.

Ben< ALL: The thought I had in mind when I listed the question "What can be done with beauty?" was: Share the beauty you see. Offer it to others. But do not try to impose it or insist that they see beauty as you do.

Jello< Ben: I think that offering beauty as we see it, without forcing it, is indeed an important thing. The Web again is a powerful medium in this regard.

Yopo< Beauty might perhaps serve as a means to elevate and refine our perceptions? To draw our attention to the existence of higher realms of experience?

Jello< Yopo: Yeah, I think so ... if we can free ourselves from the trap of just looking at physical beauty (a rut in which a lot of society seems to be stuck). The question is how to help draw attention upward? I guess it is to just provide the material, make sure it is worthy, and wait.

Ben< Yopo: Recalling (specific) beautiful memories is a way to elevate one's spirit toward higher realms of existence.

DestinyB< People who have Near Death Experiences and visit "Heaven" talk about the overwhelming beauty there.

guitarist< Yopo: I think it depends on what sort of beauty is spoken of. To the mind and heart of the desirer, a false path can seem beautiful.

Yopo< guitarist: Hmm ... Beauty can be false? I'm not sure. Its meaning might be misinterpreted, but does that make it false?

guitarist< Yopo: La femme fatale comes to mind. Also the man who thinks he is G-d's gift to women. *lol*

Jello< Yopo: I think beauty is "false" if it is one form of beauty (e.g., physical) used to mask an inner ugliness. Like how a swindler will appear to be sweet on the outside. Words can be falsely beautiful as well ... I'm sure many a charismatic speech or book has led people astray.

Yopo< We seem to confuse "beauty" with an "object of desire". Beauty often resides in things we cannot hope to possess. Perhaps most often it does. Seems to me it then serves to beckon us to a higher place, where the experience of beauty can be found more often.

Jello< ... and odd how that it is always looking through the surface beauty toward the spirit behind it that is what is important ... always trying to look higher.

Yopo< Jello: Yes ...

guitarist< Yopo and Jello: The sweet voice of the swindler over the phone trying to seem like a friend, but is trying to take away an old lady's life savings is another example.

Jello< Yep. Wow, I think we're in violent agreement here. Any more thoughts from others?

guitarist< Yopo: I suspect that most of us think we desire beauty. Therefore, whatever we desire is beautiful.

Yopo< guitarist: Perhaps I misunderstand, or we're talking about different ideas or something.

Jello< Yopo: Your comment about beckoning us to a higher place ... or to create that around ourselves. As guitarist said, it is our desires that drive that. May we desire that which is really good. :)

Yopo< I suppose we desire the EXPERIENCE of beauty, and mistakenly think we can possess the experience by possessing whatever object has given rise to it. Then we go after the object. Yes. That could and does get us into trouble often ...

Ben< Yopo: We confuse beauty with an object of desire -- if we think our concepts of beauty point to the object they refer to instead of pointing to our own minds and hearts.

Yopo< Ben: *S*

Jello< It occurred to me that my last comment about agreement isn't quite right. (I think this is another C. S. Lewis observation here.) It has been pointed out that because we see different aspects of beauty and can see it in our own unique way, we bring joy to others by offering a new way of seeing beautiful things. So difference is good.

DestinyB< The creative spirit in each of us strives to create beauty ... perhaps the beauty is in the creation, perhaps it is in an effort to make the world a better place.

Lo< DestinyB: I tend to agree that the creative spirit in each of us strives to create beauty. I don't associate desire with the beauty of the Greek bronze statue of a Charioteer who has obviously just won a race. I sense his exhilaration, nervousness in front of an approving crowd, his attempt to maintain his footing over bumpy terrain while controlling the reins of his steed, etc. I sense an empathy and joy for him, but I don't really recognize desire on my part. I know I would not like to have ridden in that race! LOL!

guitarist< DestinyB: You have been so right (last couple of posts)!

Jello< Ah, now if we could all only agree on what "a better place" is! *G*

DestinyB< Maybe surrounding ourselves with beauty is an effort to bring about Heaven on Earth ... because we all remember our "Home".

Jello< Some do say that humanity's original spiritual occupation was as a gardener ... any wonder that it apparently brings peace to many? :)

Ben< DestinyB: Yes. And even more-so, filling ourselves with beauty ...

Yopo< Ben: Uh, wait ... *LOL* I ALMOST had it, then it got away. Gonna think about that for a minute ...

Ben< Yopo: For me, the main insight was (and is): beauty isn't out there; it's in here.

Sprinkles< Hmmmm ... thinking ...

Yopo< Ben: Are you saying that the experience of beauty is an experience of something that is actually WITHIN ourselves? That it is a moment when something within us is revealed?

Ben< Yopo: Yes, that is what I'm saying.

Yopo< *S* Got bumped on the last post. Yes. That IS what you were saying. *S*

Jello< Ben: Gotta admit that lost me a bit, unless the point comes back to "beauty is in the eye (spirit, attitude) of the beholder" (and that is what makes the beholder beautiful as well). I am of the opinion that some things are absolutely beautiful, like, say, mathematics, but maybe I'm off on a different tangent?

Ben< Jello: I merely apply the statement "Beauty is in the eye (heart, mind, spirit) of the beholder" to myself when I am the beholder.

DestinyB< I agree, Ben ... the beauty is within.

Jello< In other words, the beauty seen takes up residence there, or that one has a glimmer of internal beauty for having seen the beauty? (Is there causality even involved here?)

Yopo< Uh, oh ... But there is a down-side to that observation, I fear. It would seem to suggest that the opposite of beauty that we sometimes see, is also within us?

Lo< Yopo: Could it be more appropriate to say that the APPRECIATION of beauty is the something we experience that is actually WITHIN ourselves? The object of beauty, itself, surely can exist outside ourselves, eh?

Jello< Yopo: But if one had rose-colored glasses and saw everything as beautiful, then does it follow the person is beautiful? Or if one sees something as not beautiful, then is the person therefore ugly, or is the ugliness just taken up within? If one sees ugliness, will another see that person as beautiful anyway? Wheee! I am confused at this point.

Yopo< Jello: Yeah. I'm not altogether sure I like where the corollary seems to want to take me ...

guitarist< Jello: I am confused as well. What's the difference, people, between the perception of beauty/ugliness that reflects our spirit and the perception of good/evil which is necessary for our ultimate survival?

[Ben< guitarist: Some people think that beautiful=good and ugly=evil, but for most people, beauty/ugliness and good/evil are two different sets of mental categories. Thus, they can think something is beautiful and evil, or ugly and good.]

guitarist< Ben: What happens if someone thinks that the smell of rotten meat is beautiful?

Ben< guitarist: I guess a person who thinks the smell of rotten meat is beautiful would hang around (haunt) slaughter-houses and such.

guitarist< Another question: what if someone confronts you (the 'you' is in the general sense) with the assessment that you are not beautiful?

DestinyB< guitarist: Isn't that THEIR problem? They are choosing to make a judgment and choosing to share it. That doesn't make it so!

Ben< guitarist: If someone tells me I'm not beautiful, I agree immediately, with the silent thought: "That's his or her opinion. Is there any substance behind it, or is it just a cheap shot?"

Ben< ALL: As a suggestion for discussion, you might want to think about the two old ladies in a nursing home, and post whatever that scenario reminds you of.

Jello< Ben: How about myself? Depending on my mood? Heh.

guitarist< Actually, having worked in nursing homes as a teenager, I wondered then that any of them wanted to live under the conditions I saw -- especially some of the staff. I didn't have the best experience there, either.

Sprinkles< In regard to the two old ladies: first, they are old, which means they have experience behind their age. Experience in life a little longer than most and perhaps not enough. Who am I to say that the one (ugly) has not experienced enough of the beauty or ugliness in the path of her life? Perhaps in her mind she is fulfilled and longs to just rest in the arms of her creator? The body might be exhausting to her, and her spirit wishes to be free from it. The one who perceives in awe the beauty of nature's amazements, vitality, may yearn to hang around for the endless beauty and delight in wishing to do so.

Ben< Sprinkles: Suppose the two old ladies die (leave their physical bodies) and take their attitudes with them. Then what?

Sprinkles< I really couldn't say for sure what would become of their attitudes. For I would hope that they both would become a teacher and student. Perhaps these two opposites were joined together in their creator's reasoning before their departing. Hmmm. I have to give it more thought, Ben.

DestinyB< Chances are good that the two elderly ladies won't be on the same level of Heaven. The positive lady will be rejoicing in the wonderment of the experience. The more negative lady might be thinking, "Maybe now I can get some rest".

Ben< ALL: What happens to one of the two old ladies reminds me of something I wrote long ago. It's called "Obituary for the Habitual Bitcher" and it reads (like a New England tombstone) "Old John is gone. And it's just as well. He never liked it here. Kain't see as how it matters where. He ain't about to like it there."

DestinyB< Ben: That's funny! But there's some truth in it.

guitarist< Ben: Sounds like many people I work with. *LOL*

DestinyB< guitarist: Perhaps one's outlook on life makes it possible or impossible to find the beauty in their surroundings.

[Ben< DestinyB: Yes. Well said. "The eye of the beholder" is a metaphor for one's outlook, which is one's habitual way of looking at things. The habitual bitcher has a negative outlook: he sees things in the worst possible light (another metaphor).]

Yopo< I will keep that in mind the next time I'm tempted to complain about something. Which, alas, probably won't be long. (*LOL* I suppose that comment might ITSELF be taken as a complaint. Apparently keeping the rhyme in mind didn't work.)

Jello< Ben: Hmmm, but I think some "places" are higher than others, more beautiful on an absolute scale. I know people who are miserable in some workplaces who blossom in others, who had to leave the previous workplace for their own good. Sometimes it takes beauty to awaken beauty? Oh, yes, that's the phrase ... sometimes it takes beauty to awaken beauty ... love to awaken love. I think that's the utilitarian thought that is most useful to me right now.

Sprinkles< I don't know, but to address something as beautiful or ugly in terms of attitudes is just putting labels on something or someone. But the contents don't always contain the so-called beauty or ugly, unless it is experienced by oneself. (imho) I don't care too much for labeling, especially of people. The only one who wears my shoes is me. I have to take the responsibility of the path I journey.

Jello< Sprinkles: Sounds like good advice to not label people, though I do think that to objectively gauge someone else's attitudes can help others see where they can best help that person (if that is called for).

Ben< Jello: Those who think everything is beautiful, and those who think nothing is beautiful, have no discernment.

pansera< And where would duality fit in? Where would projection fall 'in-two'?

Jello< Ben: Unfortunately (?) I think I got a little lost in tonight's session on beauty's internal/external aspects. I do agree with the discernment. Rose-colored glasses reduce one's ability to perceive and help, as do light-shading glasses.

pansera< What is objectivity? Is that a dead man's aspiration?

walk_in< Beauty is as we define it. Old sayings again ring true: beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

pansera< True.

pansera< Masks are everywhere. People hide all the time. Does that take away from their internal truth?

Yopo< pansera: Hmm ... It might, to the extent that we wear masks even when we look into a mirror. *S*

pansera< Agreed.

Sprinkles< Yopo: I think there is good and bad in all things, be it human, animal vegetable, mineral. How these are used is the responsibility of the user. Yes, there are as many masks as there are roles that each play in life.

Yopo< Sprinkles: I have been turning over the old idea of "specific evil" lately. It goes that each thing existing has its specific evil -- that being whatever tends to destroy that thing. It is a strange system. Evil becomes relative to the thing. Water would be evil to iron, causing rust, but good to a seed, causing growth.

Jello< Yopo: Though iron (the atom) is not destroyed ... it is the chemical form's enemy, you mean? And in humans, our own selfishness is our specific evil?

Yopo< Jello: *LOL* The idea dates from a day before atomic theory. But yes, I guess the basic assumption is that all things would prefer to continue, or become more than they are. Evil is that which destroys, or stands in the way of the thing's growth. Good preserves, or enhances growth. (This may also be too simplistic in the final analysis. But it does seem to maybe apply on a spiritual level, too. Leastwise as far as I've thought it out.)

pansera< Good ... not-good. Aligned with the spirit ... uncentered. Duality has many faces, many of which we do not see.

Ben< pansera: Duality is a simplistic form of discernment that only has two categories. Rather than jump from duality to either "all" or "nothing", a more functional way of thinking is to add a middle term: "good -- neutral -- bad" or "beautiful -- Okay -- ugly" and then proceed to look at degrees of difference between the extreme cases.

pansera< Relativity ... and absolute.

Ben< pansera: Yes, relativity between absolutes (limiting cases).

pansera< Intention ... mindfulness. Responsibility ... ohhhh, let's not go there.

Sprinkles< When seeds are planted, is it not revealed in the plant the care it has received?

pansera< Beautiful, Sprinkles.

DestinyB< As in ... nothing is black or white, only shades of gray in between?

Ben< DestinyB: No ... some things are black, and some things are white, *and* there are a lot of shades of grey between those two extremes.

Yopo< DestinyB: I think Ben is proposing a simplified continuum. A graduated grey-scale. Black and white are still at the extremes.

guitarist< DestinyB: As in ... there is black, white, and all shades of grey. All possibilities exist.

pansera< Polarity ... the great hope of humanity. This has been my lesson.

Jello< I think our perception of white is apt to be flawed ... what looks white is often still gray, but I still think there is an absolute white somewhere. :)

pansera< What of karma and dharma?

Ben< pansera: Karma means deeds, and deeds have consequences. However, desires have consequences even if (and perhaps especially if) they're not acted upon. Dharma means work -- as in "work it out of your system."

pansera< Karma = working through our sins = Latin based word, missing the mark. Dharma = stepping into our light, and shining = living in non-attachment.

DestinyB< A sin is a spiritual mistake.

pansera< Latin translation: sin = to have missed the mark (nothing less, nothing more). Religious dogmas have made it into something else.

DestinyB< Hmmm ... I was just showing my 18 year old Ben's description of the difference between Karma and Dharma ... since he'd asked about it the other day. (I wasn't sure.)

Ben< DestinyB: Dharma literally means "law" as in "natural law" or "cosmic law" but it is translated as "dutiful adherence to law or custom" and in practice it means, as I said, "Working your karma out of your system."

pansera< The translation was my own simplistic way of looking at it. At least, that is how my inner child looks at it.

Ben< pansera: My first translation of Dharma was also a short-cut. *smile* But I felt I needed to set it straight.

Jello< And of course, an item or action that is good in one situation may be bad in another. But to try to live up to the best good is, I think, still the best good. (Recursion, anyone?)

pansera< The highest good of all? -- god's will?

Jello< God's will would be what I believe is the highest good, though figuring out when one is doing it or not is very hard sometimes. :)

pansera< What is your highest good, or what is the highest good?

Sprinkles< pansera: I don't know what the highest good is in terms of being human. I know only to do and be the best of what my abilities allow me to, and to look beyond self and apply myself in what my heart and soul have the capabilities of providing for all that come into and touch my life.

pansera< Beautiful! It is in the constant connection with spirit ... the higher self ... your higher self ... (personal belief = attachment) that we (I) do G's will ...

guitarist< Jello and Sprinkles: If they can help, and if the person wants to be helped.

Jello< guitarist: Yes, if called for only. I am thinking, for example, of a psychologist who is trying to help a patient.

Sprinkles< Jello: Perhaps if it's required, or offered in a way to better understand.

guitarist< Jello: I agree; at the time when we are doing the deed it is hard to tell; but do you suppose that maybe the results of that deed tell us something about whether we've done G-d's will in a given situation?

pansera< Well said.

walk_in< Yes, but some for whom by all accounts there was no care, dazzle us.

pansera< It is in the intent with which the action is done. Evolution then proceeds to take its natural rhythm.

Jello< guitarist: Yes, though sometimes you don't know the results for a long time ... maybe not in this life ... makes it hard to get data.

guitarist< Jello: True; and sometimes we are tested to see whether we will try to look back or not, our intent being a direct reward for ourselves. I'm thinking of a question like: Is it better to give a homeless person money or to buy them lunch? And does this gift reach out beyond that moment? We cannot tell, but at the time it seems like the right thing to do.

Jello< guitarist: I once did that kind of thing and had no idea whether it was good to have done it or not. It logically seemed right, but didn't necessarily feel right. I don't know the fruits, and I'm guessing it varied from recipient to recipient.

pansera< Humanity ... what a "" experience? What sensations, what losses, what joys ... humanity ... oh, humanity.

guitarist< Jello: I have done likewise. *S*

pansera< Is it in the discomfort of the ego that we help another? Or is it out of the purity of the soul? Where does the projection and owning take place?

Jello< Well ... I try for connection with God rather than anything of my own in particular, but I think the motivation to do God's will is the important part.

guitarist< pansera: Perhaps we are made uncomfortable so that we will reach out and help. *s*

Jello< guitarist: Good point. Discomfort within the soul is often a sign that something is wrong, though of course sometimes we lie to ourselves and don't notice discomfort until something wakes us up. :)

Jello< pansera: Maybe your question is another one that is best answered by stepping away from duality. Perhaps it is a combination of ego pain and purity, with different degrees in different people.

pansera< For me, at this point in my evolution, that statement resonates.

guitarist< pansera: I don't think we need to wait until we feel we are pure in heart to help someone. (Although expecting to gain something from it is definitely the wrong attitude.)

Jello< In fact, if we wait until we are perfect before we help, I think we will never become perfect. :)

pansera< For it is only in pruning the tree that it shall bear fruit.

Jello< I wish my maple trees would stop bearing fruit! *G*

pansera< Be careful what you wish. What you seek ... seeks you!

Jello< Yet oddly enough, as much as we may attract what we desire, it is by giving that we receive. So desiring to give is the way up and out? (Wish I could follow my own thinking tonight.)

pansera< Who do you really help, then? Your own need to help yourself, or truly another soul? If so ... if we live in a conscious universe ... won't the other soul be able to manifest his own freedom? And if we aid someone else out of our own discomfort, won't we be holding them back from their process? So they may stumble upon enlightenment at their time ... not ours.

Sprinkles< Pansera: I find no discomfort in the helping of another. The discomfort would come when the person takes for granted the help I am giving and wants me to live it for them. For instance, it would be of no good to continue to carry someone who is not willing to apply themselves to taking the responsibilities that life requires. I would be uncomfortable if the person thought I would live their life for them. This is the discomfort. I would not hesitate a moment to be of help, to get and do what is needed, if the person is down and out or had some setback, but there are those who take it for granted, and this is where my discomfort comes from -- doing what I can and yet it has failed.

pansera< I know what that feels like (compassion).

Jello< Sprinkles: The other side is someone who does not want help ... not always good to help when a natural growth is taking place ... though since it's too easy to use that as an excuse to NOT help, I guess it's better to err on the helpful side. :)

Sprinkles< Jello: I agree, I would offer my help, and if it were refused, I would accept that as well, but I would also let it be known that is was available if they were to change their mind.

Jello< Sprinkles: Sounds to me like a great approach! Be ready to help, unless you get the command not to (which happens sometimes, right?)

guitarist< Jello: I like your continuum with ego pain at one end and purity at the other. Of course, it is better to be pure at heart, but any gift is better than none, for the one in need of it. It's the strings attached to some gifts that makes me twist as though a knife were stuck in my gut.

Jello< guitarist: Sounds like you have had too many gifts with strings attached? Like supposing Ben had received that lamp with the condition he had to keep it and use it? Ouch.

DestinyB< LOL @ Jello!

guitarist< Jello: Might be. Have to think. Have seen strings attached. Doesn't feel very good. Want to give gift back. Ouch.

Jello< guitarist: Attached strings usually have hooks attached to them. They hurt.

guitarist< Jello: Yes, they do. Makes one feel untrusted. Like the gift is not given freely.

Jello< Yes, I think so. I guess there are many things one can do, including returning the gift, but blessing the item given and getting the strings cut and the giver cared for would seem to be good things to do in general.

guitarist< How do you suggest getting the strings cut? I for one think passing it on to someone else (not the same gift, but another) when you are able is good.

Jello< Some can cut strings themselves (e.g., cut it with mind and spirit, like with a mental blade). Divine blessing of the object would be very good, and if you can get divine help to clean it up, and so on. I know people who have moved into a spiritually dark physical space, and have brightened and healed it by their presence, for example. Most of all, sending divine blessings to the one who put in the lines and hooks in the first place. God knows when to help and when to wait, and what to do! :)

pansera< Are you ready to cut the stings? What does that mean to you? What does it really mean to YOU? What are the repercussions of that action? What are the losses that are to come? What are the insights that are to greet you in your dreams?

guitarist< pansera: I don't think we're talking about tearing a cocoon open so that a butterfly, who must struggle out of it to be strong enough to survive, can emerge. That kind of help, BTW, will kill the butterfly before it even has the chance to live. A small gift at the right time can work more than we will ever know. Who knows whether the time is right or not? The right time is usually NOW.

Ben< pansera: I help if I can, because I choose to do so. It is an exercise of my free will, and therefore doesn't need any other or underlying cause.

pansera< Interesting. And do we ask for guidance and assistance in our times of need or is it imposed upon us? And if we do, is it our conscious mind or the unconscious? Conditional? Unconditional?

[Ben< pansera: I ask for divine guidance and assistance, sometimes for my own need, more often for someone else's need. I employ a set of inner disciplines that involve both my conscious and subconscious mind. The guidance and assistance I will accept is offered but not imposed, a manifestation of unconditional good-will.]

DestinyB< No matter where we are in life, there is someone more advanced than we are and someone less advanced. If we can give a helping hand to another to point out the way, it lifts us up a little bit (enlightens and inspires). Always a good thing! Hopefully someone will help us in our hour of need, as well.

pansera< We are the children of the spirit. We are one ... and we are alone. In being centered with our own knowing, we can give to ourselves and others. It is knowing when to stay and when to go, for the highest good of the soul. People give and take energy all the time. Why not be with conscious people?

Sprinkles< pansera: Why not be conscious people? There is perhaps the need for the unconscious people to have the conscious people around and vice-versa. *S*

pansera< We attract what we emit. We attract who we are (belief). Individually we isolate at a specific frequency. Anything lower or higher is basically not where we are meant to be.

guitarist< Yes, pansera, and we are always to seek higher and higher frequencies.

pansera< Must we? And if we must, the presence of spirit must eternally be present joy, for without it, it soon may turn sour.

DestinyB< The idea of divine abundance is that you give to keep the flow going. You have to, in order to make room for something to be given to you. Not so sure I believe it really works that way ... maybe a little too "New Age" for me.

Sprinkles< DestinyB: Oh, it does work, at least that is my experience talking. For even the giver is worthy of receiving. And the bounty of giving and receiving is plentiful for all to enjoy.

DestinyB< Does this have more to do with trust than giving?

pansera< guitarist: Are you familiar with holotropics? I would highly recommend <www.holotropics.com> It has helped me tremendously.

guitarist< pansera: What is holotropics, briefly?

pansera< Breathwork ... through intensive breathing ... it induces higher states of consciousness in which one can see the misinterpretation at the root level. Check out the website.

Jello< Any time one goes to a different state of consciousness, it is usually best (I've learned) if one orients one's spirit toward God first -- i.e., caring for others and loving God. Otherwise it can turn into a down trip!

guitarist< I'm getting fuzzy, folks. Thank you for the URL, pansera. I will look at it when I am awake again. // Jello, thanks for all your help. :)

Jello< I've heard that when we give freely, God is free to do the right thing with the gift. :) (Just as, if we cling to something, we are to some extent blocking God's help from reaching us and the person or thing we are clinging to ... or at least, that's the gist of many stories I've heard where people learned to give their troubles or even their loved ones to God.)

DestinyB< My brother needed some $ and asked if I could loan him some. I gave him the $ and told him it was a gift. (He's irresponsible, and it made my life easier to "give" it to him.) After some time, to my surprise, he gave me the same amount of money back!

Jello< DestinyB: Sounds like a good sign, at least to me!

DestinyB< If anyone here wants to hit me up for some $ ... I'm a little short right now! LOL!

Jello< Heh! *G*

Sprinkles< LOL @ DestinyB. What does your height have to do with it? LOL (Only kidding, couldn't help it.)

pansera< And what was your lesson, DestinyB?

DestinyB< pansera: Since I never expected him to return the $, I learned that when I don't attach strings, it leaves the other person free to do the right thing and gain self respect, too. I judged him as irresponsible, when he doesn't have to behave that way. I just didn't want there to be any hard feelings between us if he was unable to pay it back.

pansera< That is beautiful, DestinyB. You are all beautiful! Thank you for your wise words. Hope we meet again. La vie continue. Bon nuit.

Sprinkles< DestinyB: You see, you didn't expect to have it come back to you. But when it did, it was surprisingly delightful. If you did it with the expectation that you would have to pound him for it, it wouldn't have been as delightful receiving it. *S*

DestinyB< Sprinkles: That's very true.

guitarist< DestinyB: I have done that exact thing with my mother.

DestinyB< guitarist: You owe your Mom a whole lot more than $$$ ... after all, she went through labor for you ... and all those smelly diapers! LOL!

guitarist< DestinyB: There's a lot more behind my statement than you have any idea. But, because you don't know me, I'll leave it alone.

Jello< Oooh, diapers! LOL! Though technically, if we feel bound to repay everything good, then aren't those also chains? We should be free to use our free will, and hopefully free to move when and where we are directed.

Sprinkles< Jello: If the feeling is of having to, or bound to do something, it is not freely done. That is the chain, my friend. So, to give back or repay is also a sign of gratitude, but done with freedom.

Jello< Sprinkles: Yes, though I do believe sometimes a nagging feeling to do something means one may want to choose to do it ... but it should always be a choice, and not through coercion. :)

Jello< Good night, all! Thanks for the discussion tonight! :) DON'T dream about smelly diapers! ("Don't think of elephants!")

DestinyB< Oh great ... now I'm going to dream about elephants wearing smelly diapers! LOL! Until we meet again!

23. Beauty
Session 3
Sat 26 Feb 2000

Ben< ALL: This is our third session on the subject of beauty. Tonight, I intend to focus the first three questions on experience rather than theory. The fourth question will be a call for either experience or imagination. Ready? Let's go.

Ben< QUESTION 1: When I lived in New Hampshire, I knew a family whose old German grandmother came to live with them. They told everyone she was crazy. Among her other odd habits, she often sat alone all day in a chair on the beach, with blankets wrapped around her so she wouldn't freeze. When I asked her why she did that, she said "Ach ... yah ... sometimes I must go and vash my soul in the sound of the sea." What does this story remind you of? YOUR TURN

daCrone< Sounds like what folks say about me ... so I kinda think that her family may not have had a good understanding of her, or if they did, they didn't want to share it with others.

FlamingEagle< I just see her as finding solace in nature, despite what others thought of it.

guitarist< Very poetic. She doesn't sound crazy at all to me. Washing one's soul in something beautiful (as the sea often is) -- is it possible that she really wanted to swim, but the water was too cold?

Ben< guitarist: I don't think she wanted to swim. Way too cold for that. It was the sound and the solitude she sought.

FRAML< It was her time for prayer and meditation. When she spiritually cleansed herself. Too many of us don't seek that quiet time; in fact, we may be afraid of doing so.

guitarist< FRAML, I was thinking the same thing, but gave it more physical expression. *s*

LEGS< My tiny great grandmother loved to fish, but wouldn't eat a bite of fish. The sport of outwitting the fish drew her mightily ... and kept her young.

Sprinkles< It reminds me of a kind of Spiritual cleansing. The ocean with the flow of life, and the salt which it contains, brings to mind the salt of the earth and the breath of fresh air coming over the waters. All life-giving, and the blankets to hold and warm the spirit. Aaah, perhaps she is of the zodiac sign of the crab, and just felt at home. *G*

Ben< Sprinkles: It was a kind of spiritual cleansing. She knew she needed it, and she knew a place and a way she could do it.

LEGS< Water is the symbol of spirituality to many. Perhaps it linked them spiritually to their own dreams and hopes, and let them escape the reality of old age.

FlamingEagle< I like that she was washed in the SOUND ... very powerful image. Perhaps the sound evoked peaceful memories.

Sprinkles< I like that too ... washed in the sound. :)

DestinyB< Ben's question reminds me of Baptism.

guitarist< Ben, I was thinking a combined Christian/Jewish thought here: baptism, as you would call it. Observant women in Jewish culture immerse themselves in water once a month. The place where this takes place must not be stagnant, as a pool, and must have a natural water source. The ocean is perfect for this.

FRAML< guitarist: Yes, the 'mikva' I think it is called. I remember there was one in the German town where I was assigned in the late 70's.

guitarist< Yes, FRAML, you are correct. *s*

daCrone< She was also connecting.

guitarist< Another thought: she was being called "crazy" by all around her. Is it possible that she wanted to wash all that out? Just a thought.

Sprinkles< I don't think her crazy. The others just didn't or weren't close to her enough to take the time to understand her actions. Sounds as though they didn't or want to take the time, too. It is easy to dismiss things when lack of understanding prevails.

Ben< ALL: I told her family what she said, in hopes that it might help them understand her better. Perhaps it did. It certainly helped me. Like that old lady, I sometimes must go and wash my soul. However, before I heard her say it, I had not applied those words to what I do, and so I am grateful to her for giving me those words.

Ben< ALL: Sub-question: Do any of you use beautiful music to wash your soul? As a means of spiritual cleansing? I do.

daCrone< ALL OF THE TIME, BEN

FlamingEagle< Ben, yes, usually listening, but sometimes I must sing as well, as part of the release.

FRAML< Ben: I don't think so, not as a ritual. I've probably done it unconsciously though.

LEGS< Yes, definitely, Ben. And in grief, I sing endlessly ... keeps the bitter thoughts away.

DestinyB< Yes, Ben, I'm washing my soul with beautiful music right at this moment.

guitarist< Yes. There is a young lady who adapted selected Jewish prayers to Oriental styles of music, some of them Sephardic Jewish, some of them Indian. My husband recently found her CD among a stack that was going to be discarded, and brought it home. When I listened to it, I knew immediately that her purpose was to promote two-way prayer. The music was that beautiful and powerful. I believe that she is a Kabbalist.

Sprinkles< Oh, yes ... such a large variety. Cooking, cleaning, quiet time, inner thought time ... just about everything except for quiet time. *S*

guitarist< And in case you're wondering, yes, I do, too. And, like FlamingEagle, I *must* sing ... preferably harmony.

Sesquiq< Ben: I'm new here, so I won't talk much, but she was doing something we all see and feel, and know by touch. Its beautiful, so simple. I'll hold off more until later.

greyman< I create instrumentation to elevate/wash spirit.

Ben< QUESTION 2: There is a large difference between appreciation of beauty and the desire to own or possess. Here is an example of an exercise in appreciation. My next-door neighbors have a beautiful rose-bush on my side of their garage. They can't see it without walking around their garage, but I can. All summer, I take a moment to enjoy it every time I get into or out of my car. And each time, I enjoy their rose-bush even more because I don't own it -- I can drink of its beauty without having to water it and prune it and put fertilizer around it and battle the fungus that would destroy it. And each time, I appreciate my neighbors for doing those things and freely offering this bit of beauty to everyone who comes near their house. What does this story remind you of? YOUR TURN

Sprinkles< Unconditional sharing, consideration, the exhibiting of nature's awe, for whoever cares to enjoy.

daCrone< Gifts and blessings and gratitude ... how wonderful! *S*

Sesquiq< Music always (as now). Appreciation of Nature without interference; of not exerting authority.

guitarist< This is something I must learn. I think your way of thinking about the advantages of *not* possessing the beautiful rosebush is an example for me. I have always longed to be the possessor, not merely the appreciator. Perhaps, I must learn the lesson you are teaching in that one paragraph. *s*

Ben< guitarist: *smile*

LEGS< Ben: For some reason, the rose bush story made me think of taking food and clothing to add to that being given by others, for someone we don't know who will benefit from it. I wonder why? I mean why it triggered that thought?

Ben< LEGS: Yes! That is beautiful. Remember that bit of inspiration. It will be an answer to my fourth question.

daCrone< It also reminds me that it is in the simple things, the things often overlooked, that there is peace and beauty and connection.

FlamingEagle< I find myself thinking of the different ways we could offer our own beauty to the world ... just because. :-)

FRAML< Ben: Appreciating a person for who they are. For the kindness you see them do, for the help received from them. And perhaps for a physical beauty. But all that, you know they will share with you, or can be observed without the need to marry them.

Sprinkles< Sight and smell receives a gift. I love gardens of all sorts and the displays are incredibly fascinating. Although I have the brownest of thumbs. :)

daCrone< It is my habit to tell flowers, especially 'volunteers', how I appreciate them. *S*

Yopo< daCrone: *S*

guitarist< daCrone, I think that is beautiful. *s* I like to talk to plants, too.

verge< The work that we do is judged not by our appreciation, but by the benefit and enjoyment of others.

Sprinkles< I agree, verge. :)

Ben< Each year, my wife and I plant a large bed of flowers along our driveway. Many neighbors and passers-by have stopped to express their appreciation while we were working among the flowers. I always see and feel a spiritual glow in them and in us during those moments.

guitarist< Indeed, Ben, I have wanted to do the same. Maybe I'll carve out the time this year.

LEGS< Ben: That is a good way to get to know your neighbors. I taught many youngsters besides my own what the names of flowers, birds, insects, trees were/are, here in our desert area. Have had a couple mention that they have never forgotten the little folk stories about the flowers I told to help them remember the names.

Sprinkles< I planted such an assortment last year, and some were spectacular. They were all planted in the front, but I just went crazy with it. My children said I was gonna pay for the work. I wanted the Lord to, if by chance, look upon my plantings and be happy for the sight. Amongst all the negativity, this the Lord might enjoy. My payment was that there was some green among the brown, but such a nice contrast. :)

Ben< ALL: If we can appreciate beauty and not desire to possess the object of beauty, we are free -- free to enjoy many things without being bound to them or by them -- and the art of appreciating without wanting to possess can be improved by practice.

FRAML< Ben: And doesn't the art of not wanting to possess things help us in shedding links that will keep our souls here?

Ben< FRAML: Yes. Excellent point! Thank you.

Ben< QUESTION 3: Last week, LEGS asked "What are the effects of feeling beautiful? What can you do to make your acquaintances experience such beauty?" I would like to revisit those questions. Has someone made (or helped) you feel beautiful? If so, what did he or she say or do? And what were the effects in you? YOUR TURN

FRAML< Ben: I felt better after being positively commented to about the weight I've lost.

Ben< FRAML: Hah! Yes, a lot of people feel that physical beauty is inversely proportional to bulk. Then there's us skinny folks who aren't so sure about that.

FRAML< Ben: In my case, lack of bulk is also providing a drop in blood pressure and cholesterol, and an increase in desire to live. (And also reduces my chances of heart attack and stroke.)

guitarist< FRAML, I'm happy for you, then. But some who seek thinness seek an ideal that perhaps is unobtainable and, indeed, undesirable for them.

DestinyB< When I was young, sometimes when I entered a room of people (like in a restaurant), everyone would stop what they were doing and look at me. I felt like queen of the room!

guitarist< Question # 3 is not an easy one for me! But a recent example is the making of a couple of new, real friends. This always does wonders for making me feel beautiful!

LEGS< Although I am a great-grandmother, I'm not the oldest in my little town of choice where I grew up, and those older citizens who knew me then still address me as they did when I attended school. Makes me feel years younger. And they always brag on me. Makes me want to never disappoint them in my character or actions. They consider me one of the beautiful ones ... and I know they are.

greyman< You can possess knowledge, and thus the knowledge of beauty. It would seem that the above concept could be binding as well.

Ben< greyman: Good point. I think that wanting to feel beautiful can be binding, and it puts the power in someone else's hands. But it is something else when given as a gift. That's what I was looking at in this question.

Sesquiq< To help someone, to see them turn happy of spirit, for them to be appreciative, that creates within me the sensation of beauty.

DestinyB< I've tried to compliment something of beauty in others. Everyone has something beautiful about them!

FRAML< Ben: I also remember when someone said to me: "FRAML, we don't want to loose you" after I made a comment of not caring about myself or wanting to live. That comment made me realize that there were folks who cared for me without any strings attached. I realized that I was appreciated for who I was, not what they though they might get from me. It was a major turning point for me.

Sprinkles< The effect (now we are not referring to our physical casings are we?) There is such a glow as far as feelings go, and if you are aware of having a white light fill you deep into your soul, it is very contagious. By being open to it and sharing it. The sparkle, or should I say Sprinkle, in the eye as well as the heart. Yes, when I had learned to be myself, and to express all things in a positive note, it just seems to grow, and the hug, tear, joy, laughter abounds. Just how I approach others and vice-versa.

LEGS< In the everyday world, I try to give compliments like blessings. If you think someone has a lovely smile even though they are harried and rushed in their work, why not let them know you appreciate their smiles? or their dedication that makes them so tired they don't feel like giving out their sweet smiles as often?

daCrone< Many people do not feel beautiful or appreciated. I think it is important to use every opportunity to point out to them their positive attributes, their talents and their kindnesses, Sometimes the strength and vitality of an offered compliment is immediately visible.

Ben< ALL: Expressions of genuine appreciation can help almost anyone feel more beautiful.

DestinyB< One of the most beautiful faces I've ever seen belonged to an elderly lady. It was covered with wrinkles -- laugh line wrinkles! What a life of happiness she must have lived!

Ben< ALL: I said at the beginning of this session that Question # 4 would be a call for either experience or imagination. I will post it shortly.

peaceangel< Does anyone know how to get ahold of TheFire? There seem to be harassing going on in Stonehenge.

guitarist< peaceangel: You are free to stay among us. Please stay.

peaceangel< Thanks, guitarist.

Ben< QUESTION 4: Last week, I said "Recalling (specific) beautiful memories is a way to elevate one's spirit toward higher realms of existence." But (given that beauty is in the eye of the beholder) that statement is only true if one's concepts of beauty correspond to concepts of beauty in higher realms of existence. Therefore, what do you think beings in higher realms of existence consider beautiful? YOUR TURN

peaceangel< Well, I was abused sexually growing up, and I have been having bad dreams lately. I went to the Henge to just relax, and it don't help my memories to hear that kind of sexual garbage.

humble< Realize, peaceangel, that what happened to you was because of someone else's needs, not yours. You are a pure spirit and must realize it. Pity the abuser and love yourself because you are you.

peaceangel< Thanks, humble. Sometimes I still blame myself. If I would of just screamed out when this happened.

guitarist< peaceangel: I have seen you in the Henge seeking prayer from others. Don't give up because there are some there who would make fun of all things spiritual. There are other rooms, such as this one, where you can relax and find others of like mind and heart.

FlamingEagle< peaceangel: There are others here (like myself) who have experienced sexual abuse. You are not alone, and we are here to support you.

humble< peaceangel: Understand that we are all on different paths. Please, my wonderful spirit, realize that it is only important that you love yourself ... and you are worthy of that love.

guitarist< Love, joy, peace, kindness, truth, mercy, and many other things like these are what I think higher beings would consider beautiful.

humble< Beauty is, to each of us, the beauty we behold. Just as each is in a different place, our concept of beauty is also different. Not lesser or higher but different.

LEGS< I would think that the spiritual beings would find beauty in right action, promotion of peace without trodding over others, consideration of others to the extent of sharing what one has in a crisis, or perhaps just to promote harmony.

FRAML< Helping another person. Blessing others. Treating others as I want to be treated. For me personally, doing my Father's will as best I can.

daCrone< Purity of motive.

guitarist< I also agree with FRAML and daCrone. And, refraining from treating others as I would not want to be treated. *s*

daCrone< I think they like gardenias, too. *VBS*

verge< Higher realms experience only what they can relate to, which is beyond the physical, beyond emotion, beyond the limitations of our thoughts, and allow themselves to be that which is divine, and therefore just is beyond beauty, as there is nothing else to compare it to, and therefore just is.

Sesquiq< (My opinion, of course.) Beauty to spirituality is the ability to perceive Creation, to literally sense it, to live it first-hand, to learn through experience, to experience material life: the act of appreciating Nature's beauty.

Yopo< Here, that which is beautiful clothes the ineffable in a form revealing an inner truth. Here, the form of a rose clothes a mystery. Perhaps a being on a higher realm would see more of what the earthly form of the thing only hints at?

Tracey< Loving one another and seeing past any prejudice we may have been taught. Caring for others as much and more than for oneself ... and standing up for what is in your own soul, not being afraid to express yourself even if it is not a popular belief.

greyman< Beauty is understanding the "Grand Design" and the paths to those ends is kindness.

daCrone< Purity of motive in context of harmony.

Ben< I know angels see it as beautiful whenever a lost soul is found and rescued and helped to rise to the Light. Angels see it as beautiful and rejoice whenever an evil spirit changes from malevolent to benevolent and therefore lights up and becomes a radiant being.

Sprinkles< I think they marvel at us. Such individuals we are. Each so very special just to be here. Knowing that we have the power of free will. To choose anything, anything at all, and having the ability to do so. The thought of having the senses that can tune in and be able to help another. The strength as well as the weakness. All things that we take for granted and lay aside for another time. How we lose ourselves, find ourselves. Oh, what an adventure, and yet know we are worthy.

DestinyB< I think beings in higher realms of existence find beauty in purity of the hearts, love given freely, and those who strive to walk in the light.

LEGS< Nice explanations ... Sprinkles ... DestinyB.

Ben< I know angels smile when they see a mother caring for a child. A father caring for his children and the other children around him. A brother gently leading his little sister by the hand. Angels see it as beautiful whenever anyone truly helps anyone else. This I know from experience.

Tracey< Ben: Yes, dear heart, they smile at kindness and love ... in any form. *S*

guitarist< And I agree with Yopo and Ben. Turning evil into good, and finding the lost, is beautiful. And sensing the mystery in the beautiful creation ... that's why Genesis says, "Behold, and G-d said it was very good."

FRAML< Ben: The concept of beauty I think my Father has is not in material things, even how we look, but in what our souls yearn for and strive to achieve. There is beauty beheld by Him in our helping others to rise to Him, not in how we are dressed, physical shape, or even in flowers and trees.

Yopo< Would a rose still be beautiful, if it grew and blossomed and died in a place where there were no eyes to see it?

peachrose< Yes.

FRAML< Yopo: It reminds me of a similar query: If a man says something when he is alone in the woods, is he still wrong?

guitarist< Laughing @ FRAML! Ha!

Yopo< FRAML: *G* A question perhaps asked by one woman of another?

Sesquiq< FRAML: Thank you for the note earlier. (I don't know how to use private message yet, else I'd have replied during the discussion.) Your freely given help, that to me is beautiful. Thank you.

FRAML< Sesquiq: Thank you.

humble< Yopo, the rose is still a rose, whether it is observed or not. We are who we are: we need not be observed to be beautiful. We are, regardless who is watching.

FlamingEagle< Yopo: Like Ben seeing his neighbor's roses even if his neighbor didn't see them, God still does -- and appreciates their beauty.

Sprinkles< Yopo, of course. Does a tree make a sound in the forest when it falls, even if no one is around to hear it ?

Yopo< Sprinkles: *S* I would echo FlamingEagle's observation. The presence of beauty in a seemingly deserted place to me implies there are eyes unseen by us that see.

humble< Yopo, it seems to me that those eyes are the eyes inside of each of us.

Ben< /topic Open discussion of spiritual beauty

verge< To know something, you must have something to compare it to. If there is no other, there just is that which is. Beauty cannot exist without its opposite.

Tracey< verge: That is probably true here on earth, but perhaps not in other worlds. I would be quite happy with only the beauty part ... quite happy indeed.

verge< Tracey, how would you measure beauty?

Tracey< verge: You would see it with your soul, darlin'. When I was a kid, there was only beauty, and I was quite happy with it. Never felt the need for an opposite for me to appreciate it. Only in later life did I get the opposite stuff, but it is not necessary. IMHO

verge< Tracey, you have the soul to see what you wish, and I wish you nothing but happiness. Night all, hope to meet.

Tracey< verge: Honey, I was not arguing with ya. I've always been told I look at the world through rose-colored glasses, and I suppose I do. Love and peace, darlin'.

LEGS< Looking around us at all of the lovely things in nature, how could we think Go