Ben< ALL: Okay, I'm ready to begin another seminar of (probably) three sessions. Tonight I'll post three definitions and one comment before the first question.

Ben< Psychokinesis (from Greek: psyche, soul + kinesis, motion) is the apparent ability, investigated in Parapsychology, to influence physical objects or events by thought processes. (Webster's Dictionary)

Ben< Telekinesis (from Greek: tele, at a distance + kinesis, motion): In Parapsychology: the apparent initiation of movement in an object, as by a medium in spiritualism, without perceptible mechanical or other means. (Webster's Dictionary)

Ben< Parapsychology is the scientific study of certain alleged phenomena that do not exist according to current scientific assumptions. It primarily involves the study of extrasensory perception (ESP) and psychokinesis (PK). J. B. Rhine established the first parapsychology laboratory in the late 1920's at Duke University in Durham, NC. Parapsychology is a very controversial field. (World Book Encyclopedia)

Ben< COMMENT: Psychokinesis and telekinesis both refer to motion (kinesis), but psychokinesis literally means it is caused by a soul (psyche), whereas telekinesis merely means it occurred at a distance (tele) from whoever or whatever caused it. Both of these terms are used imprecisely and often interchangeably.

Ben< QUESTION 1: Are you familiar with this subject? If so, what might be considered an example of psychokinesis? If not, please hazard a guess. YOUR TURN

LadyV< I am familiar with the subject.

Ben< LadyV: Good! Please give an example of psychokinesis.

Lo< Yes, I am aware of it, too.

LadyV< Ben: ESP is familiar to me. One can send a message to another person via thought. Clinical trials prove this to be possible. Drawing a picture and having the other "see" this picture in the mind ... is a fair example I think.

Lo< But isn't that ESP rather than involving something in motion, LadyV ?

LadyV< Lo: I suppose so. To me, the mind is involved in both cases. I did not know there was a difference.

Garuda-GB< Psychokinesis, to me, would be to move an object with psychic power, mental power.

LadyV< Psychokinesis has not been obvious in my case ... unless it is someone moving my clocks about, and that occurs often. I have yet to figure that one out.

Ben< LadyV: ESP is transfer of thought and/or feeling and/or energy. Psychokinesis is sometimes referred to as "mind over matter" -- i.e., moving an object with one's mind.

LadyV< Ben: Thank you.

Ben< LadyV: Moving your clocks about could be a type of psychokinesis that I'll get into later in this series.

TXBELLES< Ben: Would psychokinesis be similar to out of body experiences?

Ben< TXBELLES: An example of psychokinesis would be levitation of the physical body, rather than OBE.

TXBELLES< Thank you for the clarification, Ben ... *S*

LadyV< Ben: Levitation is known to be done by some Saints. I suppose that is proven?

Ben< LadyV: Right now, I'm scanning this subject more-or-less hypothetically. I hope to get into the question of how well any of these reports are proved.

Lo< LadyV: I agree when you say "One can send a message to another person via thought," for I have experienced coming into a room and sensing (knowing) that someone was angry without anyone saying anything -- even before I looked at them. I sense this transference of thought can occur even without anyone being consciously aware that they are "transmitting" such feelings. However, I do not recall ever experiencing a psychokinetic event.

LadyV< Lo: Thank you.

DestinyB< I'm familiar with both, but have only experienced ESP personally.

Lo< I suspect that ESP can also occur when someone is "radiating" happy thoughts, as well. Is this possible, Ben?

[Ben< Lo: Yes.]

TXBELLES< Lo: Receiving this "feeling" of emotions/thoughts by other people can happen in an office environment or even going up to the cashier in a department store. *S*

greyman< In my business, you need the ability to receive and transmit thought with a non-verbal mode of communication. Many concepts are expressed in a short period of time in a laboratory.

LadyV< greyman: Now that is interesting. What type of work do you do that requires a non-verbal mode of communication? The term laboratory means what? I do not know if this is a general term for a designed worksite or a Lab as in hospital lab. Could you break it down for me, greyman? ... please.

greyman< LadyV: I work with a bunch of hairy-eared scientists and engineers. Sometimes with dangerous laboratory equipment such as CO2 lasers that can cut you in half, chemicals that can kill in seconds, and disgruntled union members that can sue you for slipping on a tin can. *G*

LadyV< greyman: Then I can see your point about non-verbal mode. I would be watching the eyes every minute!

greyman< LadyV: You betcha! Dem law suits can be pretty nasty! *G*

LadyV< greyman: laughing ...

Ben< Another example of psychokinesis that was a fad about 15 years ago was bending spoons (or similar silverware).

greyman< Ben: Yes, I was there. Saw some spoon bending first hand; but was disappointed when I made a circuit that would turn on a light if the base transistor resistance would decrease by "psychokinesis". Maybe I should have used an increasing resistor value to turn on the transistor.

TXBELLES< Ben: Started to ask about the bending of spoons and also about being able to affect your own physiology such as lowering or raising your blood pressure ranges ... also, our family has long used ESP to keep in touch with each other. *S*

LadyV< Could one by energy or mind interfere with X-Ray machines or things that are electrical?

Ben< LadyV: There are reports of people influencing electrical apparatus with their minds. One type of experiment in this area involves controlling (not just predicting) the results of an electronic random-number generator.

LadyV< Ben: That I feel is possible. I know that some of us can do this. I think in Russia the experiments have been more advanced.

Lo< I would suppose that a person might be able to so control themselves that a lie detector would fail. I've heard that such is considered possible, but I sense that Ben is referring to direct control of the electrical signals, etc., themselves.

Ben< Lo: Yes, a distinction is made between controlling something like an EEG or EKG by use of the mind-body connection and moving a pencil across a table by use of the mind alone. The latter is an example of psychokinesis.

stepslightly< *listening*

Ben< QUESTION 2: Have you participated in Parapsychology research? If so, please describe the experiment(s) in which you participated. If not, please describe any such experiments that you have heard or read about. YOUR TURN

TXBELLES< LEGS has done remote viewing on line ... where they take a group of people and do not name a subject and ask them to clear their minds and see what they "pick up" or perceive. As high as 95% will report viewing the same location that the scientists have chosen to focus their unannounced attention upon. Some even draw blueprints of what they are receiving. Some describe the colors.

DestinyB< I've read about remote viewing experiments.

LadyV< I think the power of the mind to cause changes in the solid world is possible. If I could actually see it with my eyes, it would not surprise me.

Lo< The physics department at Princeton has conducted such experiments and shown that certain people can indeed skew the results of a random process. Some people apparently skew them opposite to the direction they try to move them, while others succeed in moving them the way they wish to. I received several of their reports while I worked in a scientific research laboratory some years ago.

Ben< Lo: Yes. The Princeton experiments are a good example. (In my opinion, better designed and conducted than those that were done at Duke University.)

LadyV< I think that in a scientific community (of which I am not a member and my opinion is based on my reading only) it is possible to do most anything.

Lo< The Proceedings of the International Electrical and Electronic Engineers reported on some of Princeton's experiments on remote viewing -- even several continents away -- where some success was achieved. Apparently, some people have developed such talents more than others.

LadyV< Lo: It is a matter of physics anyway. I have not a background in physics but I do read the books ... and in the end of it all, it is changing the atoms and the quarks and it can be done by the mind. The power of this is unbelievable, actually ... how is this done? By whom? Maybe shamans do this as a matter of course, and the scientists have not caught up with it yet ... who is to say?

Ben< Okay, some other examples of psychokinesis are: materialization and dematerialization of physical objects (sometimes called apports), levitation of objects, and levitation of one's own physical body.

DestinyB< I have read that Tibetan monks can levitate themselves. I once saw a video of some doing what they called levitation, but they only seemed to be leaping in the air while in the lotus position ... not that convincing!

Ben< DestinyB: Yes, I also saw that demonstration of "levitation" by Tibetan monks and found it unconvincing.

LadyV< If one can stop bleeding in the body by the mind, why could they not move a mountain? It would take awhile, but it would move an inch at a time ... the thought amuses me.

Ben< ALL: Next week I'll sketch a couple of examples of such experiments (Uri Geller, and Olga Worrall).

Ben< QUESTION 3: Do any reports (or rumors) come to mind of events in the past that might have been psychokinesis though they weren't called that? YOUR TURN

DestinyB< My brother claims to have watched Native Americans create a cloud and make it rain as a demonstration of the ability to do so.

Ben< DestinyB: Yes. Rainmakers are a classic example. There are also stories of shamans who could split a storm or make it go around them.

LadyV< Ben: The shaman is what amazes me. The power to move into the mind and change thought into reality.

Lo< I worked with a man who claimed that he could extinguish a candle inside a glass globe by using his thoughts, and some other co-workers said they witnessed him doing it for someone -- I think on a bet -- but when I asked him to demonstrate it to me, he demurred, saying that it really took too much energy out of him to do it again. I've often wondered about whether he really did it.

LadyV< What is interesting here is that we are in a site designed to be radical in thought ... and perhaps a bit far-fetched ... and all of us are realists. I find that remarkable. We know of the "otherness" yet we are in thought, wanting proof.

Ben< Another classic example, from many times and cultures, is walking on water (not ice). It is reported of many yogis and shamans, in addition to Jesus of Nazareth.

Lo< Come to think of it, I have stared at some clouds and seemingly made them dissolve! I have also had parking places suddenly show up in especially handy places when needed, seemingly by just wishing them to appear. I rarely DO that, for somehow I sense we are not intended to do such things.

LadyV< Lo: Suggestion, then ... the power of mind to suggest ... and then reality is what we want to happen? Interesting ...

TXBELLES< Ben & LadyV: Our mom (RiverLady) used to turn off and on electric light bulbs in our house. She felt an aggravation because the light was on ... and it would go off ... not that she was consciously trying to do it calmly and deliberately. It aggravated her and she turned it off ... mentally.

LadyV< TXBELLES: That I know is possible. The mind is like a laser ...

Ben< TXBELLES: Yes. That is a fine example. And it isn't consciously trying to do it calmly and deliberately. Like many other spiritual (psychic) phenomena, emotion is involved, and often (usually) more-so than the conscious mind.

TXBELLES< And I have had gifts or money appear when I really needed it, and I have prayed that God would help me do without or make do with what I had, and then the doorbell or phone call ... and just about what I needed would become mine. Understand: sometimes this was money already owed me, but not always.

Ben< QUESTION 4: This subject is controversial. Some believe there is no such thing as psychokinesis. Some believe there is. What do you believe, and why? YOUR TURN

order< I have no experience whatever of psychokinetic power. *S* ... listening.

Lo< I have had people whom I tend to respect tell me that they have indeed performed psychokinetic feats at times. So this is sort of hypothetical yet, as far as my experience goes. However, I suspect I would not be too surprised now to observe such an event.

Ben< Lo: Well said.

greyman< Ben: I believe it to be possible, and I'm quite glad that I do not have "psychokinetic" power, because there would be many beltway (I-495) craters and zapped individuals. *G*

Ben< greyman: Good point. Thanks.

TXBELLES< *LOL* greyman: Kinetic Road Rage Rampant on Beltway ... I can see the headlines now.

DestinyB< I believe that we are given gifts. There is a possibility that some people have talents in the psychokinetic area, though I haven't witnessed it. With training and knowledge some people are able to change or influence physical objects. All cultures have stories about such things, especially the indigenous people.

Ben< DestinyB: Yes, these reports are more common from indigenous people ... Australia, Siberia, America, Polynesia ...

TXBELLES< Ben: Mexico, also. I have a very sensitive son in law who does amazing things ... not sure such would be termed kinetic at all, but mind power.

LadyV< I was thinking of the energy used by people that are unhappy, to disturb the environment in the home ... consciously or subconsciously. I think I read that sometimes this happens ... things fly in the house, etc. I cannot say in fact unless I perceive it with my eyes. I have read, however, of these things. Since I have to wait until next week to get to the clocks and varied other little things in question, I am not sure if this is what you are suggesting (Ben) as psychokinetic. Then again, I dislike toxic people that disturb my peace, to be fair, and avoid them when I can.

Ben< /topic Open

Lo< I wonder what "Sky5000" and "order" think about all this.

order< Lo: LOL order thinks it is a possibility. *S*

LadyV< Lo: And I would want to know about you also, because you have read the material and have a grasp of it.

greyman< I wonder how difficult (or easy) it was for Jesus to zap that olive tree?

greyman< Or fig tree?

TXBELLES< fig tree?

TXBELLES< Yes ... fig tree. We typed that at the same time. *G* Did I send the thought to you?

LadyV< greyman: (laughing) but God zapped the vine over one of the men that got uppity about doing what he asked ... in the Old Testament. I haven't read it in awhile ... do not recall the name of the would-be prophet ... but it caused me to laugh because God had a sense of humor ... taught that dude a lesson as well. And now I have to find the story again ... one my Grandmother told me as a child.

Lo< Yes, I think we can thank our creator that most of those people on the beltway have not yet developed their psychokinetic powers. I can just imagine the chaos that could ensue otherwise!

DestinyB< Lo: *smile* You're right about that!

greyman< Lo: One of my favorite SciFi movies, "Forbidden planet" touches on that very concept (as well as Anne Francis!) *G*.

TXBELLES< But think if you could just levitate over that traffic jam and go on your merry way. *S*

Lo< TXBELLES: But then we would really have a lot of tasks for lots of air traffic controllers, wouldn't we! LOL!

TXBELLES< {{{Lo}}}

Lo< I seem to remember that Casey, called America's greatest physic, once said that in a few more years (perhaps yet in this century) people would indeed travel in levitated vehicles! As long as there were no collisions, I suppose such travel might be rather smooth going and speedy at that.

LadyV< Would it not be possible to harm others in a negative sense with this supposed ability? If the thoughts were those of anger ... instead of love ... would the receiver not feel this?

[Ben< LadyV: Yes. There is danger here. Psychic powers can be used to help or to harm.]

LadyV< Society would contain individuals that have such abilities ... I would imagine. They would not be obvious, and if they were, they would be discrete. It would cause chaos otherwise ... and much fear ... perhaps ...

TXBELLES< Yes, LadyV, fear could be a result ... and then the requisite witch burnings.

LadyV< TXBELLES: Yes!

TXBELLES< What people do not fully understand they often fear and condemn ... unfortunately. Funding for such studies could be feared so that no one would grant the necessary moneys.

DestinyB< LadyV: Witches claim to possess such powers. I've met some self proclaimed witches, but have never witnessed any curses or blessings coming about through their "powers".

LadyV< DestinyB: The key is "witnessed" ... I think (smiling), as I said in words to that effect. We are bound by our own seeing, and our word as to that. We are an honest lot in here ... one of the good points in this site.

order< I'm wondering why we are told these things are possible if they are not to be used? What is the point? I think if people could do them, they could demonstrate them in some believable and meaningful way.

TXBELLES< order: That would be the ideal method ... but are we mainly realists? ... or idealists? Either or both tend to the dreaming and not the doing ... not done by the realists because "We've never done it that way before" ... and not by the idealists because it is an over-the-rainbow perfection not to be attempted until it reaches that stage in planning.

order< TXBELLES: Well, I have tried using my mind to move an object ... and am a bit of a realist and an idealist ... LOL ... but nothing happened. (sighs) ;o)

Ben< ALL: There are two types of questions in this subject area: factual (do these abilities exist?), and ethical (if they exist, how should and shouldn't they be used?) I think both of those types of questions are valid and worth exploring.

order< Ben: I have seen no evidence that these abilities exist, but don't see any reason why they should not. Ethically speaking, that would have to be determined, I guess, deed by deed?

Ben< order: Ethics is always a sticky subject. That's why I was looking at the factual questions first.

order< Maybe that magician can really do it ... what's his name? the one that made the empire state building disappear? *S* Ah ... DAVID COPPERFIELD ... that's his name. So, is he a mere trickster or what?

[Ben< order: When I saw his show on video, he was using some very interesting apparatus to achieve the illusions he presented to the audience. So I consider him to be an illusionist, an expert entertainer, and not a psychic or a mere trickster.]

Lo< order: Don't you think it is a blessing that psychic powers are not used yet, as long as people would use them in an unkindly manner? Maybe we have such latent powers but they are not enabled until we learn enough to control ourselves so as not to misuse them. I would hope so, methinks.

order< Lo: I would hope so, too. But this realm doesn't really seem to work like this altogether, does it? Seems this realm is for just experimentation ... at least, what is done or created is temporal in this plane and not eternal. *Thanking God*

TXBELLES< Lo: That would be the ideal way in which to have the powers developed fully ... the kindest and most useful 'chores' being done kinetically for the good of all.

Lo< order: Yeah! and AMEN! TXBELLES. I hadn't really thought about how handy and useful that would be to do chores! You've got a good point.

DestinyB< Ben: Does healing come under your subject description?

Ben< DestinyB: Healing is a result -- an end rather than a means. It can be achieved by various means. Psychic powers (including ESP and psychokinesis) are means that can be applied to various ends.

LadyV< I like the wise women ... or the witch. They are often very helpful and kind. Women of nature ... healers. Since I don't try to figure them out, and take them as they are, we do OK.

DestinyB< I do believe that we can bless another person and send positive energy their way. Perhaps angelic forces are intervening on our behalf, though.

order< Ben: But 'blessing another' as DestinyB pointed out, is not a result; it is a means also, isn't it?

Ben< order: Blessing is an action -- the application of spiritual energy (power, dunamis) with positive intent. Because it is also their intent, our acts of blessing are assisted and amplified by angels.

order< Ben: Very nicely said. Yes, I agree.

LadyV< Ben: What do you feel about the work of Rhine? You asked the questions, but how do you personally feel? He tried to prove in a scientific manner that life existed after death. I do not think he was satisfied with his results.

Ben< LadyV: The Rhines were definitely pioneers in this area. So, in their own ways, were Edgar Cayce and Jeanne Dixon and the Worralls. None of them were satisfied with their own or others' *understanding* of what they did.

LadyV< Kathleen Kulgman intrigued me ... yet she was an excessive drinker. The healers of the era in the 70's were often plagued with serious problems ... as are so many of humankind ... but who is to say that they did not do some good to someone? Maybe something did come through them. And much of that material is not published anymore. I found most of it in estate sells and old book stores.

LadyV< I was thinking that the era we are discussing is now the people that are influencing our views ... and many are silent. They should be speaking up, so the information is available for the next generations.

Ben< LadyV: Yes, much has been done in this area that isn't remembered and isn't easy to find. I have three search engines for old and rare used book stores. When I told my sons about those search engines, their eyes got very wide. One said "But Dad, you can't have all the old books, where would you put them?" And the other said "Surely, poverty will ensue." They were right.

order< Ben: LOL I can identify.

LadyV< Ben: That I understand. I get lucky sometimes and get them as gifts ... found in strange places ... but meant for my hands anyway. (smiling)

TXBELLES< I suppose controlling such powers might be a bit like controlling our kids. Consider this poem I wrote: "Ah, that we could protect our young from all things we think bad. / And if we did, what all they'd miss -- some things they'd wish they had. / And we in our wisdom would stifle them, I fear / And never let others come too near / And hold them so tightly / Their beings would sear / And shrivel and die, inside and out / If we were in control, of all they're "about".

order< TXBELLES: Applause! Applause! Just love your poem, thanks for sharing! *hugs*

TXBELLES< order: There are 3 of us ... LEGS is the author of the poem.

DestinyB< I've been told that I'm a natural healer. My son has always thought so, but maybe most mothers have that comforting effect on their offspring. I can use meditation and place my hands in someone's aura to help them heal themselves. When this happens, a heat flows through my hands. This power is channeled from a God source. It always seems to make the person feel better. It can also be transmitted through hugs.

LadyV< DestinyB: You are blessed.

DestinyB< I once helped my cat find her way back to life. She got very sick one night through food poisoning. I stayed up with her all night nursing her through it. I felt her spirit leave her body about 3 AM and she went limp. I tearfully prayed "Whatever your will is, Lord, I will accept it." Then I went into meditation and channeled the energy through my hands into the cat's body. Her spirit came back and she held on until I was able to rush her to the vet as soon as they opened in the morning. She is alive and well 3 years later.

LadyV< DestinyB: Your love saved her then ... glad you have your pet with you.

TXBELLES< DestinyB: That is a powerfully moving testimony ... not only to your healing hands, but to your love for your pet. Many of us have lost pets to the other side, and had them return in less recognizable ways ... like, their personality in the next pet ... etc. ...

DestinyB< TXBELLES: I believe I was given this experience so I would know and understand the reality of healing. I believe it exists. There isn't anything special about one who can channel this power ... many could do it with proper training and spiritual belief. God is the healer and the source of the power. Humans are the conductors of the energy. It really doesn't matter to me if others believe it or not. That's for them to decide.

Lo< DestinyB: Have you attempted to heal at a distance? In any case, this seems to be evidential as to a form of psychokinesis, don't you think?

DestinyB< Lo: I have attempted to help heal friends over the internet. They said that it helped. Praying helps as well. I believe that there is real power in prayer, especially with several people concentrating on one person or situation.

SLIDER< Ben: I see you were discussing prayer for the ailing. I have a request for prayer for a life-long friend of mine that is having serious surgery on the 19th of this month. His name is Mell and he lives in Pennsylvania. Any prayers would be heart felt. Thanks.

SaturnSky< I will pray, SLIDER, and send white light to Mell ...

SLIDER< Thank you for your compassion, SaturnSky.

Ben< SLIDER: I can and will connect to Mell through you. (short pause) Hmmm ... I didn't have to do it that way. You are known. I only had to speak your name, and the connection was made directly to you, and through you to him.

SLIDER< Thanks, Ben. I told him I had some good friends that could get through faster than me. *s*

SaturnSky< I was meditating about 3 weeks ago. A man in a white gold pulsating hooded robe handed me a white gold light. What do you think it meant? I still don't know. I was visualizing the violet flame around the earth when he came to me ... I felt blessed. I was having a hard time then. The robe and light were alive. Hard to explain, but they were pulsating.

DestinyB< SaturnSky: The important thing is: What did this vision mean to you? You may be the only one who can interpret it.

SaturnSky< DestinyB: I understand. Thanks for acknowledging me and answering. I will pray for your friend, SLIDER. Good-bye.

SLIDER< Saturn Sky: Peace be with you, and Blessings to you and yours.

----------

stepslightly< /topic What is a Medicine Walk?

LadyV< Ben: What is a medicine walk? I don't know.

Ishtahota< LadyV: Medicine walk: Spirit can speak to us in many ways. If we are not open to direct contact, it can communicate through sign and symbol. The language of spirit or the sub-conscious needs to be set up first. Medicine is neither good or bad, it just is what it takes for us to learn. Ask your question of spirit, then walk and pay attention to what you see on the walk. Remember that spirit is impersonal and the answers you get may not be what you want, but they will be what you need to grow.

LadyV< Ishtahota: You are right! I am for the first time comprehending your words. Thank you. Believe me, it is the most amazing thing that I have ever experienced and I have walked many paths.

LadyV< Ishtahota: Tell me why, please, when the journey begins inside the tunnel of the mind to the spirit animal, and one is with that spirit animal, and one is feeling the animal, that one's blood pressure drops immediately on the machine. I am asking because you are here in this now ... and I would like your opinion.

Ishtahota< LadyV: Are you hooked to bio-feedback at this point?

LadyV< Ishtahota: Yes ... thank you for understanding. Indeed I am. What is so remarkable is trusting ... and there is more: those that are ancestors are near at varied times. It is fixed star in my mind.

order< Ishtahota: I understand what you are saying ... and agree, except my experience with Spirit is that it is not so 'impersonal'.

LadyV< Shucks, order, if you laid eyes on God you would die ... the symbols spare you that. I am teasing ... lass ... really I am. (smiling)

order< LadyV: You are right! My eyes and my physical mind likely could not take seeing God! ... but His touch, His guidance, the way in which He comes and communes is very personal ... the soul knows it is being loved. This is my meaning.

LadyV< order: Yes, I know ... and I am glad for your peace.

Ishtahota< order: Impersonal meaning it will allow us to choose and work with us according with our judgment. Cause and effect is because of our choices and not because of spirit making a judgment.

order< Ishtahota: I understand your meaning, thanks. I am somewhat inclined still to believe that Spirit, in knowing where it would like us to 'end up', gives us a push in that direction? And if there is a direction, a good, then tend to think that Spirit's contact nudges us toward that end, never in the opposite direction?

LadyV< Ishtahota: I have yet to determine if sometimes there is not a dimension that allows us to see what is there and is not there. The symbol is actually on that fence post, and it is not logical for it to be there. It is there, Ishtahota. Being of rational mind ... it is there. Should one turn and say to another "Did you see that?" Some may see and others do not see. Sometimes it is better to say nothing ... just hold it in your heart and be glad.

SLIDER< LadyV: I can't help but relate to your last post on multiple dimensions; it's like a sanity test, I think. *S*

LadyV< SLIDER: Is that what it is called? For the life of me, I lack the terms. I do not have a teacher. I get lost sometimes ... and your words clarify it for me ... multiple dimensions ... yes! I am glad to know others understand this.

SLIDER< LadyV: I've been wrestling with that one for years, and seem to believe myself in multiple personal realities that interconnect with multiple dimensions, through dreams and visions and that inner self that keeps us on the right path. At the same time, we have to watch the influence of other entities' realities and dimensional experiences.

LadyV< Ishtahota: May I say to you that my heart is happy in this regard? It has been a slow process ... many years ... step by step ... a glance here, a pull there ... and then there it is ... and I am not sure if I will ever be able to let go of it ... the focus is so strong. The lucid dreaming is so profound. I have decided to record the dreaming.

DestinyB< LadyV: Recording your lucid dreams is a very good idea! Time tends to erode recollections of memories. It's good to have it there before you in black and white, so that you can clearly see connections. I have journaled all of the unusual things that I've experienced in the past 24 years. I call it my "weirdness journal."

LadyV< DestinyB: Thank you. I am going to try.

Ishtahota< LadyV: We are responsible only for our own growth. And some can not see because they can not except things greater than themselves. The mind can change things or the perception of things. I look in the sky and see the star born; someone else looks at the same thing and sees mother Mary. Just remember, spirit teaches all in their own time and all see what they need to see.

LadyV< Ishtahota: Yes, I understand, thank you. There is another visitor that arrives also, for a short time. I know nothing of the culture that would present the symbols. I do not know quite why ... does not matter ... it seems it arrives in its timing, not mine.

Ishtahota< LadyV: It sounds like you are getting close to shape shifting. Black Elk would NOT teach people to do this because many did not have a good sense of self and they could not change back. You can invite your helper back to this world and into yourself.

[Ben< ALL: The foregoing post by Ishtahota is important. Read it carefully.]

LadyV< Ishtahota: Thank you. I am more conscious now of the union. I just hope ... with all I am ... that I have earned the right to carry the qualities. If I have not earned them, I fail myself and those that depend on me for many reasons.

enigma3< LadyV: I see many qualities of you that are quite kind and I understand in a sense what you go through. :) It's refreshing to see you all that get up every morning to help other people as well as your selves.

LadyV< enigma3: Thank you.

enigma3< :) ... with this understanding, take it with you, and realize that your compassion is not a curse but a gift. No one in this world is useless, every one has purpose.

order< Hmm ... so then, if people see different things when looking at the sky, shall we then clump them into little groups and label them 1, 2, 3, 4 -- sort of make a little ladder of groups to represent each one's level of growth? *S* Is there a higher and a lower way of seeing?

LadyV< order: tsk tsk ... my practical one ... (laughing) wish it was that easy ...

order< LadyV: *smile* I am trying to understand this idea being shared this evening ... are there levels? The one who looks and sees the star born, is his being in a higher state of growth than the one who looks and sees mother Mary? Or is it that which is behind the symbol that is important and not the symbol itself?

DestinyB< order: Perhaps people are able to see what they are ready to see.

order< DestinyB: I would imagine the truth behind the symbol is more important than the symbol. *Smile*

Ishtahota< order: I see the star born as it is, not a symbol, but another person does not see that because it would destroy their world and their beliefs, so their mind changes it into something that they can handle.

enigma3< I agree with Ishtahota. You don't make another see what you see. Most people cannot handle it.

LadyV< order: Not a matter of growth ... a matter of arrival, of getting to where you want to be ... for you. One sees stars, others see Mother Mary, and some see clouds ... just clouds. The symbol is a focus. My great joy is now I understand my own symbol ... finally ... and it's not about to let go of me ... that I know for sure.

order< LadyV: Yes, I do agree with this. I am happy for your great JOY ... but I must admit that shape-shifting is not one of my symbols. *smile* God/Spirit's blessings.

Ishtahota< order: Star born = ET's not a symbol.

order< Ishtahota: Or visa versa. There just really is no way of distinguishing who is seeing with clear eyes of the heart. The heart is the key, regardless of where one is standing. If the heart is full, the soul will soar even within what others may define as 'boundaries'. (imho) The fear of boundaries is no worse or better than one who fears to let go of his boundaries. We struggle too hard to be spiritual sometimes, I think, instead of just allowing ourselves to unfold in love.

LadyV< order: Your concepts and your belief system that I know so well in all these years of chat are only part of the whole ... and they are wonderful concepts. They are only part of it ... and appreciated. I have gone beyond that, incorporating into my belief system a way of perceiving that does not contradict my basic value system. It is my heart and soul and my destiny on the line now ... order ... I don't have any choice ... the dye is set for me now. It is such a surprise.

order< LadyV: I hope you soar into your highest destiny. Will not quibble with you to say yea or nay about my own perceptions, as to whether they are more or less or equal to yours ... that would be to enter into a small-ish conversation, which would be senseless, wouldn't it? *S

LadyV< order: I agree with you ... (smiling)

Ben< order: The Tugarit shamans (Siberia) found what many other seers have also discovered for themselves: three non-physical *directions* of seeing, which they described as up, level, down -- and beings in those three directions which they named (in translation) Celestial gods, Terrestrial gods, Infernal gods.

DestinyB< Ben: That makes sense!

enigma3< Once again, the trinity.

[Ben< enigma3: What seers discover by looking in those 3 spiritual directions are the upper astral levels, the mid-astral earth-plane, and the lower astral levels, not the three-in-one Trinity that became Christian dogma in the 4th century.]

order< Ben: Yes, I have read some of this. It is interesting. So many 'wisemen' seeing so many different things, or interpreting what they see in so many varying symbols. *S*

enigma3< Sometimes the visions that you see are better interpreted by yourself. And some only can be interpreted by you.

Ben< order: Seers use different words to describe what they see, but this is the common denominator: up is lighter and ethically better; level is gray twilight and ethically mundane, confused and confusing; down is darker and ethically worse.

order< Ben: I do understand that there are souls who seek, and turn their hearts toward the light, God and the Light, and souls who sorta play with seeking God, and others who simply have little or no desire ... these I might also attach such levels to in this way.

Ben< order: Yes, it is also a matter of intent: desire as a direction. I once heard: some souls are photo-tropic; some are photo-phobic, and some cling to the earth.

SLIDER< Ben: That grey area is sure a challenge!

Ben< SLIDER: Indeed, it is. That's why I call it the Kingdom of Confusion.

SLIDER< Ben: Could or would you consider the confused state as earth-bound and tied to earthly experiences?

Ben< SLIDER: Earth-bound is a spiritual condition, not necessarily permanent. Sometimes it is caused by confusion, but it is basically caused by earthly desires.

SLIDER< Ben: If one is feeling one has not had enough of the earth experiences, could that keep one in more of the grey area as opposed to seeing more of the light?

Ben< SLIDER: Yes, wanting more of the earth experiences can bind one in the earth-plane. However, one can rise to the Light, get cleaned up and strengthened, and then, with kind and wise guidance, plan better for one's next incarnation.

SLIDER< Ben: I've been questioning destiny and chance and the consequences of free will, trying to leave desire out of the equation. And it's left me in what I guess would be the grey area. Should I be concentrating my energy from a different approach?

Ben< SLIDER: Free will is conditioned by desires. Desires determine direction, and direction determines destination, which is another name for destiny.

SLIDER< Ben: That makes good sense. I guess that leaves chance to be reckoned with as it happens.

Ben< SLIDER: I don't believe in chance in the sense that something happens without a cause, but I do believe in chance in the sense that we don't know what caused something to happen, so we just have to try to make the best of it if we can.

SLIDER< Thanks, Ben. You have explained destiny in a way I had not thought of it, and I should have, because it seems we create our destiny as we go along on the ride.

Ben< SLIDER: Yes, we create and can change our destiny. Namaste.

----------

LadyV< Ishtahota: Is there a brief time of time-loss and a brief loss of consciousness during the transition during the shift-shape? If I may ask.

Ishtahota< LadyV: That I cannot say. I can say that time is only of this world; it measures our imperfection. If we were in our perfect state as co-creators, then what we wanted would manifest instantly.

LadyV< Ishtahota: Thank you. I was reading that one is awake when they hear the cries of the sparrow and understand, and answer the call. I think Rumi said that. And sometimes as I open to learn, I seek those that are awake ... it is imperative that I do this.

Ishtahota< LadyV: We were awake once and we did talk to the animals. Ending duality is to awaken. You can make it to that point. You are real close now.

LadyV< Ishtahota: I went to the shrine that is important to me this week. The Mocking Birds guard the place. (smiling) The healer buried there has strong love and it is a happy place. I laughed as I came to the fence, and Mr. Mocking Bird stared me full in the eye ... he is always on the fence, checking out the visitors. The creek is called Los Olmos and I believe that is "the eyes" ... I am not really sure ... and there are "eyes" everywhere. It is a place of great joy. I wanted to share that with you for some reason ... thinking perhaps that you would understand and smile with me about the Mr. Mocking Bird ...

B< LadyV: That's pretty cool.

idrawus< Whatever someone sees, when bliss is there, enlightenment is there, everything is enlightened ... Omnipresent in everything ! *S*

Antariai< So how do we protect ourselves from people who send us anger?

enigma3< We take indifference. It's a concept that was taught to me from a great friend. Someone says to you "You're ugly." You say "So what?" as an "Oh, well" attitude. If those people want change, they will come to you when they are ready. No anger from someone else should be able to affect you if you take indifference.

idrawus< Antariai: Namaste ... *S*

Antariai< enigma: It's hard to be indifferent to a blood relative ... but I was told years ago that I would disconnect with my brother on my spiritual path ... but it seems to contradict everything I truly believe in?

enigma3< Then understand the difference, accept it, and relax. Understand it is there but only time can be a healer when it comes to family members.

Antariai< enigma3: Thank you for the comforting words. I believe our enemies give us our best lessons, and that in reality they truly love us, to play that part in our earthly dramas ... thank you!

enigma3< Indeed they do, and you notice that the enemy can be your best friend or the best ally.

DestinyB< Antariai: I believe that those who walk in the light have some protection from darkness and negativity. We also have guardian spirits who offer guidance and protection. It is said that those who reject the light have no such protection.

Antariai< Good point, DestinyB. I know I am never truly alone ... ask the Angels ... ^i^ ^i^

idrawus< Protection is your birthright, need you to ask? ... Omniscient ! ... if you comprehend Omniscient ... *S* ... it is just a process ...

enigma3< I agree with DestinyB.

idrawus< Everything in the entire Universe has its own purpose in living; everything knows its "duty" and functions. *S* The Angels know their "duty". It does not matter if you are aware of their "assistance" or not, they just act, although one might not be aware of their acts. All knows its functions in life. *S*

----------

B< Is it true that we draw to ourselves what we fear?

enigma3< B: Yes, in many cases -- take for example that many of us have the fear of being alone.

B< So, if I fear mice, I'll have mice in my house? Then I will develop a fear of money.

enigma3< ???????? ERRR ??????? explain, B

B< Well, if I fear money, I will bring money into my house ... right?

enigma3< OKAY ? AND ?

B< Well, then I can pay for all the repairs and things I need here ... and move on.

DestinyB< B: *smile* Maybe I secretly fear love and good looking men!

B< DestinyB: Hahaha ... yeah? those sound like good things to bring into your life.

----------

LadyV< Ishtahota: I am not sure but it seems to me that there is not a separation. Do you remember reading of the man that wrote about the Wolves? He said that he was trapped in the cave with them because the plane was overhead and he along with the wolves was being hunted. He said that he was truly one with them ... afraid ... and sensing the pack's need to survive, and they allowed him to be among them. That is being with the animals, I believe. I forget the name of the man now, but he was responsible for the protection of the wolves in this country. To walk separate one is at last free of need ... to walk in union with the spirit is the utmost "WE" ... and that is the union with our brothers and sisters as a whole.

Ishtahota< LadyV: Most of what you say is really a metaphor. To walk separate? We are in duality or left and right brain. All we are and do reflects the separateness that is within us. See?

LadyV< Ishtahota: Thank you. I have to work on that one.

Ishtahota< LadyV: We have many bodies. The transition is our awareness moving. The time lag and tunnel is how you perceive the movement of your awareness.

LadyV< Ishtahota: Again I did not have understanding of the terms. I just did it. That is clearer to me now. I am getting better about just going there. The thing that is so interesting is that the pulse rate slows down and the blood pressure reading is remarkable. If I were on a feedback machine or a brain wave recorder, I would be very interested in what it shows. I know on one test it revealed that I could take the brain waves to match what was wanted ... by meditation ... for medical testing ... but not simply for the Journey that I would choose. That was my point earlier.

Ishtahota< Explain about the plain.

LadyV< Ishtahota: Excuse me ... was the message directed to me or to someone else? Explain about the pain?

spiritheart< Hello, everybody. Seems like relationships and communication are on the room's minds. To me growth is the fruit of our relationships, and pain is the result of poor communication.

Ishtahota: LadyV: The plane.

Ben< Ishtahota: The earth-plane? It's in the mid-astral twilight zone. Higher astral levels are brighter, lower are darker.

LadyV< Ishtahota: The earth-plane. If you are asking me that question, I feel that earth-plane is heavy ... but in the lucid dreaming there is another plane that is literally felt ... what one sees is a opening into this plane. I have had this before when I have been asked to understand for some reason about the deceased. One goes into a tunnel, and then there is the opening ... and it is real ... somehow, some way you record feeling ... you are there. It is as real as the earth-plane. When you are awake and of this the same thing applies ... you are there on that plane ... never thought of it really ... you are in your body but the body feels this other plane as its own self ... difficult to explain. It happens ... I don't know why ... then you return to the body if you are awake literally ... and if you are in lucid dreaming you do this somehow ... it is so real! And you do not forget ... the question is the degree of your wakefulness, I think.

Ishtahota< LadyV: He was trapped in the cave with the wolves; the plane was overhead. Was the plane over the mouth of the cave?

Ben< Ishtahota: Sorry. I misunderstood your question about the plane.

Ishtahota< Ben: It is easy to do in here.

LadyV< Ishtahota: I am sorry also; I misunderstood as well. Yes, the plane was over the opening of the cave. He was trapped. This man lived with the wolves. I will find his name for you and the name of the book.

----------

B< So ... what do you do when somebody is mad at you, and you can't figure out why? like, the person is your friend, and all of a sudden they won't speak to you?

SLIDER< B: If you don't know the reason for the anger, you either have to ask or wait for time to take it's course.

B< SLIDER: Thanks. All I could figure out to do is tell her I love her, as a friend. She never acknowledged this.

DestinyB< B: It couldn't hurt to send blessings to your friend. Maybe it has nothing to do with you. Or maybe you've learned all that you can from one another and it's time to part company.

B< DestinyB: Do you really think so? I mean, I think she's a wonderful person, and my life will go on with or without her. It was just so unexpected, abrupt. I keep her in my prayers.

DestinyB< B: I have a good friend who no longer communicates with me, either. She's going through some major changes in her life right now, so all that I can do is give her space and let her know that I still care about our friendship.

SLIDER< B: Some people find it hard to deal with others' emotions if they are the cause of exposing those emotions, and in that case they choose to ignore a situation rather that confront it.

B< DestinyB: She is able to hold many friendships. It seems I have done something, maybe said something, or not said something, I don't know. You could be right. I'll just give her space and always greet her kindly whether she responds or not.

DestinyB< B: It sounds like you're doing all that you can to keep the door of your friendship open. Sometimes friends outgrow each other. Sometimes they drift away. All friendships are not forever. Keeping the person in your prayers is a very positive move!

B< DestinyB and SLIDER: I thank you both. You are kind. bye

SLIDER< Well folks, I say God bless you all, and blessings and good will for all. Good night.

LadyV< Night, SLIDER ... return often ... we don't see enough of you ... will remember about your friend.

Ben< ALL: 'tis past my bedtime. Peace and blessings to each of you. *poof*

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27. Psychokinesis
Spiritweb Chat
Session 2
22 July 2000

Ben< ALL: For this second session on psychokinesis, I'll re-post 2 definitions and then ask 3 questions. At the end of the hour I'll post the authors and titles of 3 books you might find interesting.

Ben< Psychokinesis (PK) is the apparent ability to influence physical objects or events by mental or psychic power. It is sometimes referred to as "Mind over matter".

Ben< Parapsychology applies scientific methods to the study of paranormal phenomena such as extrasensory perception (ESP) and psychokinesis (PK).

Ben< QUESTION 1: Suppose you were invited to test a psychic who claimed to be able to move small objects by psychokinesis. How would you do that? Or, what kind of experiment would you set up? YOUR TURN

LadyV< Ben: Experiment should be something simple ... and small. Thinking.

Awenydd< Sounds simple -- give them a golf ball and tell them to hit a hole in one ... or at least pick the spoon up. Question is, "Is the spoon really there?"

RiverRocks< First, I'd be sure that the table and objects were ones that I chose, and that the psychic was NOT in physical contact with the table, but in the room in a chair by the table ... and then ask that the psychic move an object in a certain direction for so many inches or raise it and move it to a certain place ... and record each attempt.

daCrone< Before I could set up a test, I would need to find out what type of material(s) the individual prefers to work with. Then I would like to know what type of setting s/he prefers.

FRAML< Set him up with a table, too far away for him to touch, and place a small object on it for him to move.

poohbear11< Let's see ... interesting question. I am told my mom can do that when she gets a bit upset with someone, so I would put a pencil in front of her and say "OK, mom, let's see you move the pencil." Simple as that for me. But one thing -- I would freak out and probably hide from her. LOL

Sprinkles< I think I would have small items varied in weight, to test the strength of the force. I would also see if the items could be moved without having a bird's eye view of item. I would supply the items.

LEGS< I would probably choose some natural objects ... rocks, for instance ... and some man-made, like plastic ... and see if there was any measurable movement. Would be interesting to be part of such observations.

guitarist< I would make sure that the room s/he is operating in would be checked thoroughly before and after experimentation for any props (such as strings, other mechanical helps). There would also be video cameras and audio tape recordings of each session. Ultra-tight security at all times and constant monitoring to ensure a tamper-proof environment. A very limited number of people would be allowed in at any time. Computer monitoring systems would be backed up by paper logs as well.

RiverRocks< guitarist: Technical support would of course be a necessity ... video taping is a wonderful idea.

daCrone< Once the type of materials and setting were understood, I would try to work within the parameters ... a spoon bender would balk at pencils, I suppose. Anyway, my next step would be to procure the place and the materials. The materials I chose would be ones that the individual in question had no contact with until the time of the test. I would also set it up to keep the possibility of 3d physical manipulation at a minimum.

Awenydd< Picking and choosing the items would not really verify the ability, but rather the control. If I wanted to just see if it were possible, I'd have the applicant choose the item, and ensure the controller knew the object was not mechanically altered. After you establish an ability, you can narrow down the research to check for control over objects not "familiar" to the applicant.

daCrone< I would probably have to research the ways 3d manipulation can be done. I am always amazed at how creative people can be. *S*

LEGS< I tend to be gullible, so I would want a support staff to do the monitoring, not just myself.

daCrone< Yes, LEGS, that is a good idea.

guitarist< I don't think the materials matter so much, but I would choose the thing(s) to be manipulated, as others have said. I would probably choose a variety of things because I would like to test the extent of the ability.

LadyV< Why would the person be considered a subject for this experiment to start with? Is the decision made by the one doing the experiment or is it a group decision?

Ben< LadyV: I'm assuming that the psychic has volunteered for this test of his or her abilities, and that someone else (like a parapsychology professor) has selected you as an unbiased person to conduct the experiment.

poohbear11< Well, I agree with LadyV. I wouldn't want my mom as a experiment because I love her and I don't think anyone else would like to be one. And if you taped it and proved they did this, they would be like guinea pigs all the time and a big thing for science news. IMHO

LadyV< poohbear: That is a good point ... there is risk involved in the experiment that would require discretion or signing a release form.

daCrone< I once volunteered for such an experiment ... and after sitting for an hour in a room with a picture and a table for company, the prof told me I was not acceptable ... spent too much time looking for peekholes. *S* But I got the extra credit anyway. *VBS*

guitarist< daCrone: I think peekholes are a good thing to look for, especially in experiments with clairvoyance. :)

daCrone< I think my preferred experiment would be one like David Suzuki showed -- the kind where the individual tries to influence BBs to follow a particular path. The one being tested could not touch the thing that held the BBs, and it would be painfully obvious if s/he jumped. But that made little sense ... the maze for the BBs was vertical and wall mounted ...

guitarist< daCrone: What if the BBs were at the bottom of the vertically mounted maze, and the psychic tried to direct them upward? Certainly defies the laws of gravity. That would work, if carefully controlled otherwise.

daCrone< guitarist: Upward BBs ... that would be an experiment! *S* Hadn't thought of that.

Ben< QUESTION 2: Now suppose nothing happened, and the psychic said "I can't work under these conditions. There are too many doubters in the room." Would you consider that a valid objection? If so, why? If not, why not? YOUR TURN

guitarist< I say, no excuses! Doubters in the room are precisely what makes this experiment valid. If they can't be there, I'm not either!

FRAML< Ben: No. If he claims to be able to do it, then being tested shouldn't be a problem. "Doubters present" to me is a sign that he is tricking people with his 'demonstrations.'

LadyV< I don't see what doubters have to do with it. He does it or he does not. Do the people give him energy to do this?

whytedove< Yup ... I would consider that valid ... and wouldn't hesitate to use it. If you're expecting someone to play lab monkey for you, the least you can do is ensure that the energy in the room is conducive to allow the flow of theirs ... and doubters or skeptics would certainly infuse the room with enough negativity that nothing would most likely work the way it was intended to.

whynot< Too many doubters in the room is a valid issue, as the mind-set must be "right on" to perform at peak levels.

grizz< The psychic is trying to run all his experiments with a predetermined result then. There are so many different ways of abilities and if the psychic says "I cannot work under these conditions" then it is because he does not understand the conditions his is actually working with and it will not give him his predetermined results.

RiverRocks< Ben: Of course, doubters do affect the work of many psychics ... however; in my experimentation, there would not be that many superfluous persons in the room to cast vibes of doubt out in the ether. *S*

LadyV< Then, RiverRocks, the ether does it?

RiverRocks< LadyV: *S*

Sprinkles< I wouldn't consider it a valid objection. He would have to have more faith in himself to be able to do it without or with doubters. It is his ability that is being tested, not the onlookers. IMHO *S*

daCrone< My first inclination is to take the 'doubters' statement as an excuse. I think it could be an admission of inability to stimulate matter and/or an admission of inability to focus.

LEGS< I tend to think it is valid. I find it difficult to do things when I know others are doubting my ability, and this is work-related. I feel the psychic results would be far more sensitive to such vibes.

Awenydd< It may be a valid point, but if they can't handle a few doubters in the room, how can they perform in the "real" world?

whytedove< Awenydd: Maybe the person in question doesn't want to perform, period? Having an ability is one thing ... being turned into a circus sideshow because of it is quite another, methinks.

Lo< In this field, shouldn't we just observe and learn what he/she can do or can not do, without any preconceptions on our part?

guitarist< It seems to me that "doubters present" is practically a cliché by now. It really shouldn't be used at all for that reason. If we want psychic research to have credibility, we shouldn't allow things that would get us laughed at, like this.

daCrone< I would also look to myself to determine if I had 'stacked the deck' ... and make sure that the individual who volunteered indicates to me that s/he felt up to the assignment. I know a sea of counter-energy can be tough, however ...

poohbear11< Well, my mother can move objects. When she gets mad, things go across the room, but she has learned to control this. So, if you get her mad, it should work with her. So I would say things to get her mad at me and see what happens -- and duck.

guitarist< poohbear: You mean she isn't throwing them physically? :)

poohbear11< Exactly. She gets mad, and things just start flying at you, like there's a ghost. geesh!

LadyV< Rhine published his works in a reasonable manner for those of Science to read. He spent his life trying to make it plausible so that it could be respected. In the end he also doubted many things ... primarily life after death. I wonder how he would have felt about Kubler-Ross had he lived. If I recall right (and I may be in error) he had died before her arrival.

Awenydd< One of the key factors in determining a science is repeatability. If you can't perform due to distraction of "non-believers" is what you are doing a scientific fact, or merely an illusion?

FRAML< Or the observers letting themselves be deluded.

whytedove< I'd say that depends on your perception of science ... and do we really want to be studied and labeled as acceptable by the scientific community that has tried to destroy us for how many years?

guitarist< whytedove: We may not like what the scientific community has to say about us, but we still should conduct our experiments according to standards (validity and reliability are the main ones) that cannot be refuted. It's not what they think that counts, but our integrity. :)

grizz< We all have abilities. No matter if we think the next person's ability is real or not, we all have our gifts. Some people will never realize it but others will. We must believe within ourselves in order to find the power. But if others bring negative energy on us, then our abilities may be diminished. It all boils down to the yin and yang of life or the negative vs positive.

LEGS< I have seen some scoffing articles that said, when a person proved a feat of some sort, that it was really mass hypnotism and people only thought they saw it happen. Actually ... isn't mass hypnotism quite a marketable skill? Why worry with other tricks if one was capable of such control of minds? *g*

Awenydd< Nobody ever said this person was a "guinea pig". It is assumed the subject is willing ... why else would they be in this situation? Will can overcome such things as doubters present. Granted those who have ability in anger do have something ... but without control, do they really have anything?

Lo< Awenydd: But in this field, other people's thoughts can have unknown effects, can't they? Repeatability may depend on the same physic environment and also possibly on the spiritual environment as well, methinks.

whytedove< Lo: Well said. *S*

Ben< Many experiments have shown that ESP and PK both appear to be independent of physical conditions, but both are highly dependent on psychological conditions such as belief and doubt (psychic atmosphere). So, I would consider this to be a valid objection. And this isn't a new finding: Jesus could do no mighty works in his hometown (Nazareth) "because of their unbelief", except he laid his hands on a few people and healed them.

FRAML< Ben: He "could not" or perhaps "would not" because of the futility of the effort?

[Ben< FRAML: Mark (6:1-6) says that Jesus could not do any powerful deeds in Nazareth because of their unbelief. Matthew and Luke copied from Mark, but Matthew (13:53-58) merely says that Jesus did not do any powerful deeds there because of their unbelief, and Luke omits this statement entirely.]

greyman< Ben: If the gift is that frail, I would be suspect. The implied message is that (his) psychic power is dependent upon the "belief" of others. If someone has the power, generally it is dependent on a point source (that person). However the owner may be blocked, or for that matter, be provided energy by another entity (incarnate or otherwise).

guitarist< But, Ben, would not the presence of believers-only make it possible to create a fraudulent atmosphere, even if unintentional?

Ben< guitarist: Yes, believers are more easily deceived by fraudulent psychics. But their presence helps the genuine psychic. That's one of the interesting things about this subject.

RiverRocks< Ben: Your question was, if we were to test the psychic to see if they could actually do the psychokinesis, how would we set up the experiment. Without typing out the pre-discussion an experimenter would naturally have with the psychic prior to setting up the room with the objects to be moved ... the objects would of course have been weighed and recorded as to what they each were and what the weight of each was ... and the recording equipment would be handled by professionals who believed in the experiment, etc. However; psychics are not "on" at all times ... that is a proven fact! So doubting vibes could and would affect their work in any case ... and they would have the right to set that fact out before hand ... and if they were able to do the experiment with doubters in the room ... hurrah!

Ben< RiverRocks: The reason I said to LadyV that a parapsychology professor selected an unbiased person (you, us) to conduct this experiment was because the professor knew about the effects of psychic atmosphere and wanted it to be as neutral as possible. *S*

FRAML< Ben: But in the psychic's mind, anyone who doesn't believe him without testing could be a 'doubter.' An easy out for him, and a bit of paranoia, too.

Lo< But, FRAML, if he did do it, it wouldn't matter if some are doubters, would it? However, if the presence of negative skeptics could prevent a success, then the psychic might indeed be at their mercy.

[Ben< FRAML & Lo: Some of those who claim to have psychic powers apparently want people to believe them without testing, or as a prerequisite for testing. However, there are two other observations in this regard: (1) a psychic can be psychologically strengthened or weakened by his or her own thoughts; and (2) a psychic can be assisted or blocked by the psychic atmosphere that others produce.]

guitarist< I think the skeptics' presence would serve as a check, mainly to make sure that all the controls are in place. I would welcome such as due diligence.

whytedove< guitarist: I don't know that I'd agree with you there. Maybe I just have an aversion to being treated like a lab rat, but either ya take me at my word when I say I can do something or ya don't -- it don't make no never mind to me which way you go. I and the people close to me know the truth and nothing else matters.

LEGS< Hey ... I'm really glad I'm not the one being tested. *s*

whytedove< LEGS: Me, too! *LOL*

LEGS< But I can see someone who has been doing these things for years, and being doubted at least as long, wanting to prove, once and for all time, that it is a gift he/she possesses.

[The following post was apparently in response to a pm from whytedove.]

RiverRocks< whytedove: This is an open discussion, and your points are valid. We each have the right to our own opinion even if it differs from others in here. *S*

LadyV< RiverRocks: Does the ether depend on emotion and outside energy to move objects?

RiverRocks< LadyV: You have jumped to a conclusion that might be erroneous! If a psychic has the ability to move objects, and says that his or her ability is affected by doubters, the experiment could continue with the objection duly noted. And I certainly don't believe that "ether" has anything to do with it ... it was our word for the "environment" ... sorry if it confused anyone!

LadyV< RiverRocks: I am in error. My vocabulary is based on my reading. I perceive words in that manner. I did not know "ether" in your context. I apologize to the room. My error was not intended to result in misunderstanding.

Awenydd< I agree about the affects of others' thoughts, but in the scientific world, it either IS or ISN'T ... you can, or you can't ... and that works for me. If you CAN, but only under the best of circumstances, then as far as I am concerned, you CAN'T! If in a lab, with full-fledged believers, you can bend the spoon, but in a situation of real life around disbelievers, you can't pass wind, you are no better than the voodoo women in Haiti.

Sprinkles< Even though there are unbelievers, that still doesn't take the ability away. It would seem to me that unbelievers are not ready to learn or accept that which is quite possible. When the faith in oneself is secure with the ability, it does not take the time to have doubts. Just how long was the psychic involved with it? That is not revealed. Still I feel that faith in one's ability can move mountains. We may not see the mountain move, but that is not to say that it doesn't, I think. LOL

Ben< QUESTION 3: Now suppose something did happen -- the small physical object in your experiment moved when the psychic did his or her thing. What would you think caused that motion -- Illusion? Fakery? Fraud? The psychic's own power? Spirit or spirits? God or a god? YOUR TURN

Jello< Ben: I missed some of the discussion, but how can we know exactly what caused the movement, unless we have some psychic perception of our own, or have a lot of other data aside from just what is presented?

[Ben< Jello: Yep ... that's the underlying question behind my question. *smile*]

FRAML< Ben: Record how far the object moved, and repeat the experiment. If there were not sudden earth tremors, then I might say that he had some ability, but again, repeated experiments to come up with a track record, vice a 'lucky stroke.'

Ben< FRAML: If you repeat the experiment under the same psychological and physical conditions, and the object moves again, that brings us back to Question 3: What do you think caused it to move?

FRAML< Ben: A mental ability he has would have to be the conclusion. A gift he has been given. But then what really matters is how he uses it: to help others, or just to make money and be a showman.

guitarist< Ben: As long as I can prove that my end checks out, I would consider the latter three possibilities: the psychic's own power, spirit(s), or G-d. If I made even a small mistake, it could be anything. The psychic would have to be searched thoroughly for anything that would make it a fake. If I or my helpers found anything, the test would be called off. If this happened enough times, I would call the whole thing off.

RiverRocks< Ben: We feel that psychics are given their gifts and talents by a higher power ... a "God given" talent ... and so, if the experiment resulted in successful moving of the objects and those results were recorded, then you would have to say that it was the psychic's ability ... granted to that psychic by the higher power. IOHO

Awenydd< Assuming proper control was exercised to make sure the experiment was legit, and the object was moved, the cause was what the mover claimed it to be, whether it be God, themselves, or some external source. Each person controls their own reality. If I can move an object in the name of God, you should assume it was God who did the work ... you don't want to piss him off!

grizz< Awenydd: If the spirits assisted in the ability to move the object, they can also hinder it as well.

daCrone< Of course I would have to consider the possibility of fraud -- thank goodness for those cameras ya'll brought in -- *S* -- because fraud is something that happens. After that, my personal bias is toward matter as a form of energy.

guitarist< I also agree with FRAML about repeating the experiment. I would do that several times, going through an elaborate procedure each time so as to ensure validity. This would be written up in the paper the professor writes, so that others can duplicate the experiment.

greyman< Ben: The observation of movement is a perception. If the perception has a basis in this physical reality, then a force has acted upon the object. The force may be of a natural origin such as electrostatic discharge, magnetic, or photonic. If those "normal" forces are discounted, a closer examination would be prudent.

Ben< greyman: Yes, it is reasonable to assume that a force has acted upon the object. The difficulty here is, what kind of force, and where did it originate?

Lo< Ben: I perceive that the cause for such motion originates with the psychic's thoughts. It may or may not be the result of his or her own gifts beyond that, as far as I know. I sense that it could also be the result of others' thoughts who may or may not be incarnate.

Jello< I think I missed something about the experimental setup. But, if evidence strongly points to a non-physical source, then how can we know who or what is going on without having data pertaining to the non-physical conditions? For example, what is the person's objective? What is the result of this person's actions? What does the person think is going on? What do other people perceive is going on?

[Ben< Jello: Excellent questions, relevant to the non-physical nature of this whole subject. Thank you.]

Sprinkles< Having been satisfied no gimmicks were present and the psychic indeed did move the objects, I would take it that, yes, he does have the ability. I would hope that it was his energy that moved the object, his control of the energy forces that he has his faith in, and that it is a positive influence in the workings of his faith.

grizz< Like I said, we all have our special gifts. If one can move an object, then great ... it is a truly good gift. I have a friend who has telekinetic powers and he is my teacher who awakened my powers that were hidden within myself.

LEGS< That is great, grizz. It would behoove us all to study under someone with such powers ... think of the advances!

Awenydd< This sort of "science" may not be able to be measured by traditional science, but there have to be some parallels, or else it just cannot be. Doubters and intent may make up a big part of the results, but if the subject cannot overcome these, then for all intents and purposes they may as well be sterile.

daCrone< Matter, as I see it, is a form of energy ... we are mostly space between teeny moving particles -- that is what stuff is made of -- which is a real mystery to me and a wonder. So, on the point of declaring the source of the ability or power or whatever, I would couch my speech in terms like "There is evidence" or "The movement of the yada-yada indicates" ... truth is, I know very little.

guitarist< daCrone: I think the language would be even more vague: "The evidence suggests the possibility that ... "

daCrone< Yes, guitarist, vague, vague, vague ... a lesson I learned well. And now they sell tons of books telling people how to say what they mean ... geesh! LOL

guitarist< Well, daCrone, we don't want to imply that we know everything when in fact we don't. There's lots of room for improvement in everything, from design of the experiment to writing technique, so we want to leave an impression of the room there is. That's why the vague language. :)

swami< If it is proved that someone has psychic powers, what does that prove? What is the purpose of proving it? What point does the "proving" have?

grizz< swami: I agree ... it is not if I can do it; it is what will I do with it ... should our gifts be used for good or evil?

guitarist< I think we would have to devise another experiment to determine the source of the power. Perhaps make a device that can actually sense aura energy, for instance.

RiverRocks< guitarist: Unending experimentation into the science of moving objects mentally, and the source and the cause and effect ... but think of what a group of such persons could do ... if used for good. I (K'AM) hate to think that our psychic abilities are used for evil ... although I'm sure that it happens.

swami< Does proving "psychic" ability expand our awareness of God -- of that which I am? What is the purpose of the proving?

LEGS< We are straying from Ben's point ... not for us to judge the rightness of such an experiment, only to discuss doing it and how for the best scientific records.

guitarist< Exactly, LEGS; we need to have a well-conceived experiment that would ensure that the results we get were not the result of extraneous variables (like earthquakes and fraudulence on the part of the subject). Note: get a seismograph in the control room. :)

grizz< If we do nothing but devise experiments of our abilities, will we not loose touch with the source of our abilities? Science itself has muddled up a lot of things, yet the natural power of mother earth is ever-changing and will continue to fight science.

swami< In India, it is accepted that a side effect of spiritual growth is the acquiring of siddhis (psychic powers). It would seem to me that if one subscribes to the Omnipotence of God, then as one becomes more aware of that Omnipotence of the lord God of Thy being, then one's expression of one's Omnipotence would become more powerful (Psychic powers).

grizz< Ah, but swami, in the Bible, God warns us not to play with the powers of the supernatural ... so therefore, from the beginning of time, the Lord our God has known that humans here on earth posses the powers to deal with the paranormal but warns us not to do so.

swami< grizz: That is certainly an interpretation that is held by some. The Bible also says that what God is we are also and more. This seems to say that we are meant to realize our Omnipotence.

grizz< swami: True ... we may believe in the most omnipotent one, but we must also realize what lies with in ourselves.

FRAML< H'mm ... Yoda says one must be careful of Om nipping in tents.

guitarist< FRAML: Thank you for bringing us your humorous perspective. *s*

LEGS< *laughing* FRAML ...

FRAML< Well, if we have sufficient levels of midichrondials, the we can reach out with the force, and if we have the ability of Mel Brooks we can create a farce.

Ben< ALL: Perhaps the most interesting and difficult part of this subject can be seen in the wide variety of answers to the question "What caused it?" when something paranormal actually happens. Usually, any answer to this question indicates more about the preconception (faith, belief, disbelief) of the person who answers the question than it does about the actual cause of the phenomena, whatever that may be.

Ben< Now I'll post three books in this subject area that you may find interesting.

J. B. Rhine -- The Reach of the Mind (William Sloane Associates, 1947, hardcover; Apollo Editions A-13, 1960, paperback) Experiments in parapsychology at Duke University, Durham, SC, plus reports of many other psychics and experiments.

Russell Targ & Harold Puthoff -- Mind-Reach: scientists look at psychic ability (Delacorte Press, 1977, hardcover) Experiments at Stanford Research Institute (SRI), Palo Alto, CA. Includes much of the pioneering work in remote viewing, plus six weeks of testing Uri Geller in 1972.

Robert N. Miller -- Miracles in the Making: scientific evidence for the effectiveness of prayer (Ariel Press, 1996, paperback) Tests of paranormal healing, acceleration of growth in plants, etc., especially by Olga Worrall (1906-1987). Includes her long-distance PK experiments with Agnes Scott College, Atlanta, GA, in 1974.

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Ben< /topic Discussion of psychokinesis (PK)

swami< I do not see the point of doing an experiment if one does not have a reason for doing it.

grizz< swami: Again I will agree ... why prove our powers when we know already what we can do? If we must prove it to others, then is it not just an ego trip saying "See what I can do"?

Ben< swami: There are endless rumors about paranormal abilities, so the purpose of these experiments (and any genuine scientific inquiry) is to try to separate fact from fiction, truth from falsehood.

swami< Ben: And when that has been done? When it has been decided through experiment that psychic powers are true or "not true" -- then what? What is to be done with this information? -- or is it just the intention to decide one way or the other and then leave it at that?

Ben< swami: Good point. If more people believe paranormal abilities are real, rather than myths or rumors, then the important questions shift from factual to ethical. As I have read so often: spiritual development does yield siddhis as a by-product, but the more psychic powers one has, the narrower the ethical application of those powers becomes.

swami< Ben: *S* Now you are moving into what I see as important when conducting experiments such as this. Indeed I agree with you. It seems to me, the more aware spiritually the person is, the less interested they are in siddhis and the less they feel inclined to demonstrate the siddhis they have acquired. This is what makes me wonder why one would want to conduct such an experiment, and what would be the purpose of the result once it is proven -- if it ever is. *S*

grizz< All in the name of science, swami ... it is all in the name of science ... for it is one field where the scientists have no control.

daCrone< So, does it count that I was seriously considering holding the mouse to my head and telling my system to speed up when it abruptly hung up the phone?

RiverRocks< daCrone ... ROF ... *GIGGLING*

Jello< Until we have greater ability to accurately measure the vast spectrum of psychic and spiritual phenomena -- from the coarsest energy to the purer energies, to the mixture of selfish and selfless motivations that we human spirits have -- I personally wonder just how much we can truly ascertain. Ah, well, just because it's hard doesn't mean we shouldn't keep trying.

guitarist< Well said, Jello. :)

Jello< The more one becomes aware of the psychic and of just how much one person affects other people, the greater the weight of responsibility. On the other hand, at some point one has to say, "I can't take all this responsibility -- I have just got to do my best and leave the rest to God."

RiverRocks< Ben: We want to thank you for letting us be in charge of such an experiment. Your faith in our ability to be impartial and unbiased and able to conduct the experiment correctly and scientifically boosts our morale tremendously! Hope we did you proud ... *G*

Ben< RiverRocks: Thank you. My trust was well-placed.

guitarist< I would also like to devise a questionnaire for the psychic that explores the origin of his/her powers. Open-ended questions and standardized questions that would help us decide where the powers were coming from. Example: Is the person a practicing witch with ties to Satanic powers? An NDE'er whose powers have come as a result of that experience? Was the person born with them as far as they know? Has the person been developing them as a result/by-product of positive spiritual development? And more elaboration on the answers to questions like these.

Ben< guitarist: That would be an interesting questionnaire, in line with my third question tonight.

Sprinkles< grizz: It doesn't necessarily mean that the ego trip says "See what I can do." It could also be seen as "See what I can do; just imagine what you can do, and if I can do it you can, too." The possibilities of man's abilities are endless. If more abilities are taken seriously enough, just think of the wonders that man can do. Of course everything has a negative and a positive. (IMHO) *S*

grizz< Sprinkles: That is also true, but let's look at the real world where people who make the claims of powers are actually ridiculed and made fun of unless they can perform some special power that will awe the skeptics. I know this from my youth, and since have kept the limits of my abilities to myself. Only if someone has gained my complete trust will I divulge the truth of my beliefs.

RiverRocks< grizz: We all learn to be careful in what we do and what we say ... from the time we first know that everyone cannot do the things that we take for granted ... we learn to become guarded and secretive ... and it's a shame that we have to be that way with the God given talents and gifts that we have been granted.

Sprinkles< grizz: In the real world I take pride in my abilities. Those who may have a disbelief I tend to see as perhaps not ready to know. There are IMHO many who have amazing abilities and are well respected for them. This they have earned as with any field one enters. I let myself be known, so those who are ready to know more of any of my abilities are more than welcome to come. For those who don't, that is fine, too. But I will not hide. Skeptic or no skeptic.

grizz< There are a lot of things I would like to say on the subject, but tonight thru all my fatigue, words are failing me.

RiverRocks< grizz: What you have contributed has been well said, brother dear.

Lo< grizz and swami: May I suggest you click on Ben's name here -- it will take you to his site, where he discusses many reasons why we have been guided to be careful about such matters, for they can be very dangerous. Until we have learned how to carefully proceed properly, it may well be best if we stay away from such practices. I believe that eventually we can and will learn how to proceed without mishaps once we have developed our inner self to be the ethical being we were meant to become.

swami< Lo: I was only wishing to know the purpose of holding such an experiment and what was intended to be done with the results if they were proven one way or the other. I have read much (ad infinitum) on the pros and cons of seeking psychic powers -- that is not an area I am seeking more information on. Thanks for the info, though.

LEGS< Yes, Lo, his page is a wonderful source that I refer to often.

grizz< Lo: On my part, I have made some of those mistakes and am still learning the hard way to deal with my actions of a foolish state, yet we may never deny what we are capable of ... it would then be the same as telling an Olympic weight lifter that he has restrictions on the weight he may lift. Some of us, like myself, will not listen to warnings, but carry forth headstrong and all. If there are punishments along the way, so be it, but we must learn from them and carry forth nonetheless.

daCrone< What happens when we get it and get it written down? hehehehe ... I think that maybe the point where 'it' changes completely and all is moot and more opens up before us and we begin anew. LOL

Jello< All I know is that people who seem spiritually advanced are too busy helping others to want to prove anything to the masses. *shrug* At least in my limited observations. :)

Lo< Yes, Ben. The more psychic powers one develops, the more limited are the areas where appropriate ethics will allow their application without detrimental consequences, it seems.

swami< Ben: I would like to add that, yes, if these powers are proven, then it seems to me it becomes of great importance to understand what that means in terms of how we perceive that which we are -- how it plays a part in expanding our awareness of that which we are -- what importance it holds in our unfolding awareness of I AM.

Ben< swami: Yes. I agree with you. I plan to follow this ancient line of reasoning in the next session. However, the reason I started with the factual questions (last week) and the experimental considerations (this week) is because the ethical considerations are meaningless if the whole subject is rumors and myths.

Jello< I think we might need a public education campaign on the dangers of wanting and/or having psychic powers. I have gotten too much email from kids who want to do what they see in Dragonball Z.

daCrone< Some of my hang-ups in this life, as I have said here before, are stuck to words. I am having a little trouble here with the word 'power' because I am not certain that is what these abilities are. The word fits on one level but not on others for me ... oh, I must work on this. *s*

reed< daCrone: Yes, I know what you mean. *S*

LEGS< I would like to have a sure way of telling if my 'knowing' sometimes is valid. I tend to see things and then discount them as either wistful thinking or fearful thinking (good things and bad things) until they actually happen and I am shown that I already knew this would happen. Not to say these are really prognostication ... much less important ... things like seeing a plate broken on the floor at someone's house, and then having that person tell me later they just broke one.

Jello< LEGS: I hope you aren't suffering from the Cassandra Complex. I used to discount "warning signs" about potential employees ... now I don't discount them anymore.

daCrone< LEGS: I do that, too ~ I am trying to learn when to trust what.

LEGS< Sometimes it is about people. Last year, I was in church praying, and when I raised my head, I saw the young wife of the minister ... well, young to me. They have two beautiful children about 8 and 5 ... and as I smiled thinking what a nice little family, I heard "And there will be more" so after church I asked the minister when they were expecting. He assured me they didn't plan on more children ... and later, when I mentioned it to her, she said they had far too many plans and already lovely children ... yet now, she is carrying twins. *G*

reed< LEGS: *S* Shame on you ... tut, tut ... you put the idea into both their heads, so what else could they have but twins? *S*

LEGS< reed: She was pregnant at the time (Christmas) but didn't know it yet.

DestinyB< LEGS: Cool ... that you have foreknowledge about things. With that gift comes a responsibility.

Jello< LEGS: Ah, yes, but what a weighty thing to bear ... foreknowledge. *sighs*

LEGS< Jello & DestinyB: I just am not always accurate, and so never know when to trust it ... sorry.

RiverRocks< Ben: This has been an interesting session ... and what are you pursuing next week?

[Ben< RiverRocks: I intend to have a third session on psychokinesis.]

guitarist< I have a particular interest in those who have powers that come as a by-product of something else, such as near-death experience, rather than as the result of seeking them directly.

daCrone< I would also like to hear more of how individuals perceive what sound like similar experiences. I suspect (yes, I've been playing Clue with my grandson *s*) there are far more individualized forms than are discussed.

Sprinkles< daCrone: I would like to know of others' experiences also. There are so many different fields of psychic abilities. Finding out the person's origin of the field, and how they came to have it, would be interesting also. *S*

hume< /topic There's no such thing as psychic powers.

hume< To date no psychic has been able to prove their claims. Many have been tested and all have failed.

hume< The research done at Stanford University by Russell Targ & Harold Puthoff turned out to be bogus and the government has stopped its funding because psychics could not produce results.

Ben< hume: I was involved in reviewing the work at SRI (and other projects) for the Department of Defense. Funding was dropped due to political pressure. Your blanket assertions are false.

RiverRocks< /topic Good-bye hume

reed< hume: To date no scientist has proven their claims on the origin of man, and I hear they have a new idea again that is soon going to become a fact, to those mentaloids that would believe them.

hume< reed: You wouldn't know what scientists have proven or disproven because you don't have the intelligence to understand complex thought.

RiverRocks< hume: I pray for you that you can become a more likable personality!

hume< RiverRocks: I pray that maybe one day you might acquire more brain cells. Such a prayer will never come true because prayer obviously doesn't work.

guitarist< /topic Open discussion of Psychic Powers part II

swami< Ben: It is a subject that has been hotly debated for eons, it seems. *S* Many experiments have been conducted -- conclusive for some, non-conclusive for others, and for some, no matter what is shown, doubt and skepticism ensue. I think when we get down to it, we can only prove anything to our own satisfaction. It has been proven that the earth is round many times over, yet there remains the "flat earth society". Seems that if we are to wait for "proof" before moving on to the ethical considerations, it might well be a long wait. *S*

Ben< swami: I agree that it isn't necessary to have anything close to universal agreement that psychic phenomena are real, but this seminar is intended to stimulate thinking about spirituality. And any aspect of spirituality certainly sticks in the craw of the materialists. *S*

swami< Ben: *G* That's for sure.

hume< Earlier someone mentioned Uri Geller. Uri Geller was proven to be a fraud. He was debunked by James Randi and embarrassed himself on the Johnny Carson show in the 1970's when he couldn't bend spoons. Bending spoons is simply a trick any magician can do; it does not take any paranormal ability.

LEGS< Good evening Hume/Meson/Bidhati

hume< Studies show that belief in psychic ability is mainly shared among individuals who have low IQ's and are poorly educated.

guitarist< My father believes in it and his IQ is about 140. Sorry to disappoint you, hume.

Jello< guitarist: Heh, the average IQ on this board is probably scarily high. ;)

RiverRocks< Jello: That's so true ... *s*

guitarist< Jello: Probably right, and you are just one of the reasons yourself!

hume< guitarist: I don't believe you or your father has a IQ of 140 because spiritual people are notorious for being liars. Studies show that spiritual people have IQ's between 65 and 110. Many spiritual people are borderline retards.

guitarist< hume: I never said what my IQ was, and I won't, now. I am not a liar. Too bad you are too biased to be *observant* enough to know the difference. Pitiable.

hume< Spiritual people use the products of science, but are clueless and unaware of how the thought that went into such technologies actually contradicts and invalidates everything that is spiritual.

Yopo< hume: I suppose it depends on who one reads. I have great respect for Charles Tart as a discerning mind, for instance. He points out that there are innumerable carefully controlled double blind studies statistically bearing out the existence of psychic phenomena.

hume< Charles Tart is notorious for being biased. His word can not be trusted because he has a vested interest in the psychic industry. Trusting Charles Tart and many other so called "psychic researchers" would be like asking the cigarette industry to investigate and regulate themselves.

Yopo< hume: Hmm ... guess opinions vary, then. I consider Dr. Tart an objective observer. There ARE biases on both sides of the debate. My own opinion is that science in general has accepted materialism as a given, to the point that anyone seriously suggesting psychic phenomena exist automatically lose credibility. There ARE dissenting views within the scientific community. Often out on the cutting edge of the new physics. By definition, a true scientist should have an open mind. History shows that isn't often the case.

hume< Yopo: The fact that you and others here think that science only deals with the material proves that you never studied science on the college level where the more complex abstract non-material aspects of science are taught. It's always funny to me how spiritual people reveal their ignorance when they make such statements. Matric Mechanics, Quantum Math, and the study fields and the geometry of space-time are just some of the complex abstract non-material subjects of science that spiritual people are totally unaware of. In fact, it has been proven that spiritual people just can not grasp those subjects no matter how hard they try.

reed< hume: Oh, so it's OK to be abstract and vague and not have to have linear proof, if the subject is approved by the so-called scientific community. *laughing*

RiverRocks< hume: It concerns me that you would come here when you are such a non-believer in anything spiritual ... so we shall try our best to help you in spite of yourself. *S*

Jello< I sense a lot of prayers going up for someone. *g*

Yopo< And so far as prayer goes, I would recommend the books of Dr. Larry Dosey. Prayer has been the subject of scientific study, too. Statistically, patients prayed for do measurably better than those not prayed for. Those in the study were unaware whether they were in the group prayed for, or part of the control group, which would seem to rule out the effects of simple positive suggestion.

RiverRocks< Well said, Yopo.

guitarist< Unfortunately, people like hume are probably just as much under the influence of a limiting paradigm as are those who believe the opposite. If you are under the influence of a particular paradigm, your observations will likely fall within it, and thus you will miss much that is going on right under your own nose! That's why Ben's hypothetical professor selected *unbiased* people, who will simply observe, follow a predetermined protocol, and not let particular beliefs otherwise get in the way of observation. :)

RiverRocks< guitarist: Thank you for explaining to us about hume as it is difficult to understand a person who obviously is educated ... as evidenced by the choice of words and phrases used in the spiel that hume has chosen to expound upon tonight ... to be so downright ignorant in the ways of truly communicating thoughts. *S*

reed< Hey HUME Are you just going to continue to deny and ignore my statement to you? In case you didn't notice it, I'm repeating it: "to date no scientist has proven their claims on the origin of man, and I hear they have a new idea again that is soon going to become a fact, to those mentaloids that would believe them." Or are you just spouting off your judgmental rhetoric so you can feel like you're contributing to our spiritual growth and understanding?

hume< reed: Scientists have extensive provable evidence on the origin of Man. You just don't read or go to the library. Evolution is a provable fact. The recent advances in genetic research which I know you are totally clueless about just make the origin of man more conclusive. From genetics scientists can trace our origins all the way back to the first human ape like creature that inhabited Africa. So there, child, I answered your silly question, but as usual you will go into denial and show your ignorance and act like the buffoon you really are. In fact to take this issue one step further, scientists have shown that spiritual people are really remnants of the past. Spiritual people are more like the primitive ape creatures that lived millions of years ago and scientists are the more highly evolved human beings.

Ben< hume: Your insults cast a bad light on those who claim to be scientific. And your arrogant manner ruins all your arguments.

reed< hume: I was referring to the "so called fact" that now they believe that life originated from a drop of rain water. MY, MY, these so-called intellectuals have come a long way from "the world is flat". *S*

daCrone< /topic WATER!! It's rusty, but it's water

Sprinkles< hume: Why is it that you are being rude? If you disagree that is fine. State it. But your rudeness is uncalled for. Is there something that we can possibly be of help to you with? We all mean you no harm. We try to respect others' opinions, and that includes yours as well. But if you want to call out names, perhaps a site with baby names can be of help. Or perhaps refer to the nics that you see here without adding your own to theirs. IMHO *s* Meant with sincere concern for your negativeness. ((((hugs)))

hume< /topic Spiritual De-programming session will end in 5 minutes.

Jello< Ben: I think not all aspects of spirituality are intolerable to materialists. After all, I think some materialists are cynics who have seen just how screwed up the world is, and have lost hope for something better.

Ben< Jello: Yes, loss of hope for any larger view of reality than the self-limited paradigm of materialism can produce cynical reactions.

Jello< Been there, done that. Sometimes it takes a big sledgehammer to wake one up to the rest of the universe. Sometimes that's the only thing that will do it. No amount of conversation could ever replace that kind of experience.

hume< Jello: Spirituality is a materialist philosophy which is very narrow in its scope of nature.

reed< hume: I wager your viewpoint could split an atom. *S*

Jello< hume: You have a particular view of the universe that isn't going to be swayed by anything we say. Best wishes to you.

RiverRocks< /topic Psychic Awareness Through Discussion

Avisitor< So, what is a psychic?

hume< Avisitor: A psychic is a person who believes they have a special ability. They are mainly con artists preying on the types of gullible illiterate spiritual people you see here.

Avisitor< According to my dictionary, psychic means : of or relating to the human soul or mind ... mental as opposed to physical. What dictionary did you read?

hume< Avisitor: Actually I have no problem with your definition from the dictionary. It amazes me that a spiritual person would even bother to look in the dictionary, but anyway, that explanation is OK in a general way, but just because it says that psychic relates to the human soul or mind it doesn't mean that the dictionary is giving credibility to that belief, it just means that the dictionary is giving a definition according to what people believe a psychic is.

Avisitor< hume: The dictionary definition of doctor, for example, describes a medical doctor in it's first definition, then in it's second definition, it describes a person receiving the highest degrees given by a university. The dictionary usually puts first what the term or name is generally know as. If you were as educated as you claim, wouldn't that be the first thing you would know, namely what is meant by the name?

hume< Avisitor: Child, you have a serious learning disability because you can not distinguish the difference between belief and knowledge. The dictionary is just a general tool, one needs to go much further than that to get a complete picture of a subject matter.

guitarist< We use the dictionary quite a bit around here, hume; you would know this if you came out anything like regularly. :)

hume< guitarist: Yes spiritual people try to use the dictionary but even that is too complicated for you and others.

RiverRocks< Psychic: 1) of the human soul or mind; 2) outside of natural or scientific knowledge; 3) sensitive to influences of a nonphysical or supernatural nature; and 4) a person who is sensitive to psychic influences. (Random House Webster's Dictionary) *S*

Avisitor< Have you noticed that hume spelt backwards spells emuh. Wonder what the h stands for HuM?

LEGS< hume is to be pitied ...

RiverRocks< hume: If you crave attention, you have certainly received it ... and I agree with LEGS that you need to be pitied and my prayers shall continue that you gain knowledge in spiritual matters.

hume< RiverRocks: I used to be spiritual just like you and others here. When I was spiritual I used to believe in all the silly things you and others believe, and used to talk just like you, but then I received an education and realized how dumb spirituality is. Studies show that when people become scientifically educated they become less spiritual.

reed< Hey, gang, hume is just like us but he doesn't want to admit it. Welcome, hume. You're not now telling us that you are one of the ignorant ones because you used to be spiritual, are you? *S* WOW

hume< reed: No matter what you say it makes no difference because in the final analysis the real issue is that scientists are smarter than spiritual people.

reed< hume: If that were true, then tell me how they suddenly increased their brain power, tofu!

Ben< hume: Do you honestly think you can sway anyone to your point of view by insulting them? Debate is always welcome, but ad hominem argument is a logical fallacy.

guitarist< hume: If the best you can do is ad hominem attacks, I suggest you go somewhere else. That is not called for in a legitimate debate, no matter how intellectual you are. It makes me think that you've just been spouting the names of the subjects you've mentioned, rather than studying them.

Jello< *shrug* hume looks like any other troll. I have been dealing with irate fan boards for the last N months. This stuff I see every day, and damn! but I'm getting used to it! LOL

Yopo< hume: Ah, you make a lot of assumptions concerning the educational background of some of us, my friend. While I am not perhaps well-versed in the specifics of those concepts, I am certainly not unaware of the thoughts of folks such as Dr. David J. Bohm, Karl Pribram, Michael Talbot, and others. Seems to me there is an overlap between the universe they postulate, and the universe of those of "spiritual" orientation. *S*

hume< Yopo: Michael Talbot, David Bohm and all the others you mentioned have no credibility within the scientific community or even among their publishers. The publishers of such material openly admit that they have to edit such material for a new age spiritual audience that reads on a 5th grade level, and that the writings of the people you mention is mainly designed to make money and entertain.

Yopo< hume: Oh, my! There, our opinions certainly differ. Dr. Bohm was hardly writing for a popular audience, though Talbot has rendered his thinking a bit more accessible to those such as myself. Bohm's ideas pull much together that would on the face of things seem to be at odds. My impression is that he is widely respected among the open minded lights of the scientific community. The rest, he tends to make uncomfortable. *S*

hume< Yopo: You have to realize that what spiritual people call the "Scientific Community" is really not the scientific community; it is a bunch of pseudo-scientists with no credentials from accredited universities that are basically scamming the public because there is a hunger out there for the supernatural and paranormal.

Yopo< hume: I just don't see this spiritual/materialistic thing as an either/or sort of issue. They are not mutually exclusive views, as you seem to suggest. The world is BOTH spiritual and material ...

hume< /topic Spiritual De-programming session is now over.

LEGS< The last thing that hume wants is for no one to talk to him or about him ... leaving him out of the chat entirely would probably be anathema to him. *s*

reed< LEGS: You're right. *S*

RiverRocks< hume: It might surprise you to learn how many spiritual people are scientists. Suggestion: do a bit of research in that area before you spout out much more of this rhetoric you're giving tonight. I feel very sorry for you and you shall continue to be in my prayers ... for if you were "once spiritual" and received "an education" ... what kind I wonder ... then there is hope that you will again set your feet on the path of awareness and love and spirituality.

hume< RiverRocks: A majority of the world's top scientists are atheists. You and others believe otherwise because you have been brainwashed by new age propaganda. At one time or another all intellectuals and scientists were spiritual, but many have grown out of spirituality as they became more educated. Intellectuals laugh at spiritual people because their ideas are silly and childish.

RiverRocks< hume: An assumption ... my dear one ... but a wrong one!

hume< RiverRocks: This spiritual De-programming session is now over. You will have to save your silly spiritual gobblygook for the next time I am here. Bye ... ***poof***

guitarist< Thou protesteth too much, hume. Methinks thou art not very wise in your manner. (To make it more accessible to your tremendous intellectual capacity: the non-dictionary definition of ASSUME is, makes an ASS out of U and ME!)

PeterR< /topic more "salsa music for USA! ... and "HUMe suck off!!!!

LEGS< /topic:

RiverRocks< Ben: Now ... to other things than a small minded bigot in our midst. This has been a most enlightening seminar, and I wonder if you set an antagonist in our midst to see how we would handle the situation. Bully for you if you did! It only reinforces my beliefs, and my faith, and gives me a depth of understanding that I certainly did not think I possessed ... for my patience with ignorance is not deep. And so it is time for me to say goodnight to my good friends and peers and intellects and sisters and brothers ... and hume.

hume< RiverRocks: You have been defeated.

Ben< RiverRocks: No, I didn't set an antagonist in our midst -- hume just popped in to save us all from our spirituality. *S* However, I am encouraged that several people here learned something from our seminar on chatroom disrupters. *S*

RiverRocks< Well, Ben, at least hume has had the grace to leave us. *S* Such an ego! Poor thing ... I shall continue to pray for enlightenment for the dear soul! *S*

Jello< I have some contact with thousands of members of a particular on-line community. I think one of the keys of surviving in such a situation is to not spend energy on people who are *demanding* attention in as negative a way as they can. With that many people, one simply can't afford to do so.

Avisitor< hume: Well then, I guess I will have to go elsewhere to find this belief or knowledge because whatever it is you have, and I suspect it can be contagious, I don't want it. I will look to find those of a higher mind and leave you to play in the sand pit here with the preschoolers. BYE don't eat the sand or you'll have to have your nappy changed again.

hume< Avisitor: I'm sorry to say that you and others here do not have what it takes to succeed within the intellectual community.

Avisitor< hume: *VBS* Then why are they paying me ??????

hume< Avisitor: You don't have to believe anything I say. I am just a messenger. Scientists and all intellectuals in different branches of the sciences realize that spiritual people are mentally inferior.

RiverRocks< Avisitor: If hume only knew who we are! *S*

hume< RiverRocks: I know exactly who you are but you don't know who or what I am. Ha Ha! You see, you and others here are nothing more than lab rats being studied. You probably never heard of the superparticle experiment. I will leave you guessing. I'll see you at the next Spiritual De-programming session.

Yopo< hume: *sigh* I fear you've made your mind up to the point where all contrary ideas are filtered out on the level of emotion. Not intending that as a personal criticism, my friend, but as an observation. I make the same observation about some on "my side" of the fence too, BTW. It is important to constantly test our beliefs, whatever they may be. Stop doing that, and we lose the ability to move forward. *S*

hume< Yopo: Studies show that only spiritual people relate on an emotional level. Non-spiritual people just state facts like I have been doing. I'm sorry you don't like to hear the truth. I know you and others are afraid of the truth but that's just the way it goes, and no matter what you and others say it can't negate the fact that 1. Spiritual people have low IQ's. 2. Spiritual people are scientifically illiterate. 3. Spiritual people are genetically defective and suffer from many emotional and mental illnesses.

Yopo< Ah, hume ... Facts and Truth are slightly different things. Truth is composed of facts, but involves a higher order of perception and integration. Truth has to do with meaning. A focus on nothing but facts would be a bit like seeing a painting only in terms of the position of blobs of paint. To see the truth of the thing, one must look in a different way.

hume< Yopo: Truth is a primitive spiritual concept that is culturally relativistic and based on arbitrary material values. Science is a higher level of consciousness that goes beyond truth and makes truth meaningless and silly. Interestingly you have touched on a subject that I am the superparticle experiment are working on known as Gestalt consciousness. You touched on this concept by accident in your analogy of the painting, but I really don't think you understand the implications of what you said and how it actually invalidates the spiritual paradigm.

guitarist< I'm really tired of the Star Trek pseudo-scientific babble. I'm ready for bed now. *yawn*

hume< guitarist: Maybe one of these days you might learn how to play the guitar.

guitarist< Why, have you heard me play? For that matter, have you done anything to prove your assertions about any of us here? No. You have not. Your words are meaningless to us. For the sake of anything that means anything to you, please get a life. OK?

RiverRocks< May you each be enveloped with love ... surrounded by peace. Walk in the white light of healing and hope ... and keep your sense of humor ... we obviously need it around here. *S* Good night, dear friends ... until we meet again NAMASTE ... and hume, know that you are in many prayers. *S*

hume< RiverRocks: Actually the thing that makes you pathetic is that you are a reject within the spiritual community which you seek approval from. You are spiritually unenlightened. I suggest you visit the library one of these days. Try starting out with Winnie The Pooh.

hume< /topic This spiritual De-programming session is now officially over.

guitarist< Wars are not won with last words alone, and neither are battles.

SCOREPIO< hume: If I am to understand you correctly, scientific people are better because they are smarter. Then would that not make computers the top notch on your poll? Maybe some day you to can be a computer and be happy with yourself because as you know, you yourself are not perfect.

hume< SCOREPIO: Many already think I am a computer. You obviously haven't heard of the superparticle experiment.

kuli< No one will be left behind ... not even Hal 9000.

SCOREPIO< hume: LOL You assume a lot about me.

hume< SCOREPIO: My database has records and scripts of all the spiritual talk that goes on here. Many have been exposed by me because of my extensive database. I have exposed many frauds, criminals, drug addicts, etc. ... who all come here under the disguise of spirituality.

YO< hume: Wooo ... I'm afraid ... !!

SCOREPIO< hume: So you like attacking people and making them feel bad about what they believe in? Understand me: if your need is to teach people, why not teach people who want to learn from you? Do you know what I mean?

hume< *************POOF*************

Yopo< Uh, oh. I TOLD hume somebody was gonna trip over his power cord. Hope his data base was backed up. *hehehe*

SCOREPIO< LOL So, when did this hume start coming here?

YO< The last time I spoke to this hume person, it was his lousy attitude that got exposed. I really don't know what he is talking about exposing others.

guitarist< Oh, L-rd, open Thou my lips, that I may speak Thy praise! For the earth is the L-rd's, and all it contains, the world and all that dwell therein.

Ben< ALL: Well, we've had a little example of a militant materialist. Usually, it's the fundamentalists who come on like that, trying to save all the pagans by damning them to hell. Thanks for keeping your cool even though hume didn't.

Yopo< Ben: Materialistic Fundamentalism? *S* Hey, I think maybe they're in charge these days. So I wonder why they're so durn defensive?

guitarist< We sure got him mad, didn't we, Ben?!

[Ben< guitarist: No, we didn't make him mad. He came in here to make us mad.]

Jello< And please keep in mind that trolls get their energy by eliciting responses from others. If you don't have any to spare, don't give them any. Don't let the pollution in. (In all seriousness -- I've seen this kind of thing really bring some people down.)

Star12< I agree -- when positive energy is in place, ignore those with negative ... unless it is someone who needs help, of course, and hume has his own agenda.

LEGS< Ben: Is hume Bidhati or Meson with a new nic? So much is the same rhetoric.

[Ben< LEGS: The name doesn't matter. What hume did tonight was malicious.]

Ben< ALL: Okay, my bedtime has arrived. Peace and blessings to each of you. Good night.

guitarist< Ben: Tonight you (and the rest of us) have *earned* the good night -- the hard way! *sigh*

Ben< ALL: Thanks again for earning a good night's rest. Shalom. *poof*

SCOREPIO< I have found out many things in my life by seeking the truth and then finding it. hume acted as if he knew all. If he knew all, he would not waste his time with us, and if he does not know all, he is going about his search like a man who wants to know what is in a box so he blows up the box ... but in doing that he destroys that was in the box.

Yopo< SCOREPIO: *S* We were ALL distracted. I feel like I've been playing ping-pong with a Martian or something. *shaking head to clear brain*

Star12< And yet, SCOREPIO, hume is gone and you still allow him/her to occupy your thoughts ... why?

SCOREPIO< I guess my point is that his point was to enlighten us ... but all he did was put people down. Is this a new way of teaching or what? (scratching head)

Star12< No ... it's called EGO ... and perhaps, having nothing to say ... and knowing this ... he strikes out?

SCOREPIO< Star12: Was just wondering what hume was after, that's all. I did not mean to offend anyone. :-) Was just thinking on the board.

Star12< Not offending, SCOREPIO. I was not here for the seminar ... just caught his words coming in. My point is, release the negative feeling he left you with ... concentrate on the good conversation you all had here ... or HE WINS!

SCOREPIO< Star12: Oh, I see: you think hume bothered me ... he did not. I was just trying to find out his point in all of this, that's all. It does not matter what hume thinks of me. :-)

----------

27. Psychokinesis
Spiritweb Chat
Session 3
29 July 2000

Ben< ALL: In this third session on psychokinesis, I will post 2 comments concerning credibility, and then ask 3 questions about the implications of having psychic powers.

Ben< While I was assigned to the Office of the Secretary of Defense, I was asked by the Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency to evaluate the testing of Uri Geller at Stanford Research Institute. After reviewing all the reports, I said it certainly looked as though he had some psychic powers, but he was not a credible person. Someone asked what I meant by that. I said "Well ... would you take him at his word and buy a used lawnmower from him sight-unseen?" There was a wave of laughter in the room. And that project was canceled.

Ben< On the other hand, Olga Worrall was a credible person. I and my wife met her and heard her lecture in Washington, DC, and watched her healing sessions in Baltimore several times. I would take her word for whatever she said.

Ben< QUESTION 1: Suppose a friend of yours tells you that he has some psychic powers and invites you to a private demonstration of psychokinesis. He puts a pencil on a table, says he will try to make it roll away from him, and focuses his attention on it. Because he is your friend, you think "Go for it! You can do it!" -- and the pencil starts rolling away from him. You are surprised, astonished, and think "Nobody can do that! It must be a trick!" The pencil stops, and he cannot make it move again. What are the implications of your experience in this case? YOUR TURN

SLIDER< As you said in your opening statements, credibility would be what would make a believer of me, if I knew how credible the person was.

guitarist< Well, as you said last week, psychic connections have an emotional basis, rather than a rational one. It seems that the observer, once again, has affected the experiment. We might want to repeat the thoughts of the observer again to see whether this might be true.

KAM< Implications in this scenario: 1) It was a trick. 2) your concentration helped the situation. Personally, unless it was lifted and moved, I would not believe that it was psychokinesis, so the rolling would be a sign to me that there were no powers. *S*

Jello< "He cannot make it move again" points away from the idea the friend was in it just to show off and did some kind of trick. Not proof by any means, though. Should try replicating the experiment with "You can do it" as the primary thought, and see if it works. Should also try it with the pencil in a glass case and with the observer concealed. ;)

greyman< Inference made again that psychokinesis is dependent on "faith" of others.

guitarist< In particular, the emotions of surprise and astonishment might have a powerful effect. If studies show the emotional component already, maybe this ought to be examined in more detail.

Ben< guitarist: Yes, the experiment might be repeated, and you could try to change your mind-set, from negative to positive. But it might be difficult to generate that enthusiastic "Go for it!" feeling the second time.

DestinyB< I'd be amazed. Just because someone can't roll the pencil again, doesn't mean that he didn't do it to begin with. I try to remain open minded about such things.

Sprinkles< First of all, I know that trick of making a pencil roll, and it is done with cigarettes as well. Having knowledge of this trick, I would still have him go for it. Reason being, I believe everyone has some psychic ability. If the event takes place without trickery, I would think perhaps he is gaining the knowledge in applying the ability, which is fine. *S*

guitarist< I also agree with Jello; we can try it again with several different configurations and projected emotions/thoughts.

FRAML< Ben: Be gentle, ask for repeat. discuss how it was done. Also quietly look for stage props. (Sorry, my theater experience creeping out.) But if he was a friend I trusted implicitly, I don't think I'd do the search. I guess it depends, in my case, on the level of friendship.

DestinyB< FRAML: Sometimes friends try to "pull one over on us" in a playful spirit!

guitarist< FRAML: I think the search should have been done before the experiment began. Then there wouldn't be any doubt afterward. You could explain that it's nothing personal, just that you want to be sure that what you're seeing is what you're getting because of the nature of what he's about to show you.

Ben< FRAML: I sketched that scenario rather briefly. Point was, he wasn't trying to trick you. He actually did make it move as he said he would try to do ... and then he couldn't. His ability and inability both correlated with your thoughts at those two moments.

FRAML< Ben: Point noted and understood.

5foot2< Initially I'd have the "my friend believes" attitude and respect that. Seeing it done would allow me to say my friend believes, and I saw it once. It would then, I guess, become a question of my credibility if I relayed the story to another.

Trinkat< Ben: I have found that the emotional atmosphere of an audience seems to affect the performer whether the act is natural talent, psychic ability, or something else. It's very hard to even speak effectively to an audience whose disapproval of you is a palpable presence.

Ben< ALL: Based on my amplification of the question (to FRAML), what are the implications of your experience in that case?

SLIDER< Ben: A person (whoever it may be) can sucker you with their thoughts on your emotional compassions. If you let them!

guitarist< Ben & FRAML: Now that we've been talking about the effect observers would have on the experiment, I would redesign the test to include them also. Having them note their thoughts in some manner as the experiment occurs would help to pinpoint where, and to what extent, they affect the main thing being tested or observed.

Trinkat< It's so much easier to show something or try something new in front of people with a supportive attitude (friends or family), even when I'm showing someone something home-crafted. I can't imagine being in the position of having a psychic ability and trying to prove it to a roomful of skeptics.

Ben< Trinkat: Good point. Thank you. (I faced hostile audiences almost every day for five years while I was developing new policies on reliability of systems and equipment for the Department of Defense.)

guitarist< I agree with Trinkat's two comments. Perhaps we need to study psychic phenomena (at least in part) as we would any other emotion-based phenomenon.

Ben< guitarist: Good point. When designing a test, take into account the nature of the phenomena. In ESP and PK the observers do influence the outcome of the test. Not always totally, but almost always significantly.

Jello< There have been Aikido experiments on the effects of looking upon someone with benevolence versus malevolence. Very interesting stuff.

FRAML< Ben: I'd work with him on discussing how he is doing it. Perhaps concentrating on ways for him to concentrate better. Also discuss the implications of being able to do that type of thing ... ethical as well as physical. Sort of like I did with my daughters after seeing the movie "X-Men" and they asked about the power to read minds and to move things. Their interest surprised me, but their quick grasp of the ethical limitations on the power was a greater and most pleasant surprise.

greyman< Ben: In the game of tournament Chess, part of the game is reading your opponent. Breaking mind defenses is a tactic that good players can perform. I tend to block any mental attack with a thought-shield. It is very effective unless I come in contact with a mind more powerful. Under those circumstances, I tend to go for the draw. *G*

Sprinkles< The note of being told one has the ability and then shown it, still doesn't validate it is so in regard to being credible. I would have to go with more than that, I would think, but exactly how I am not sure. But knowing my judgment is fairly so-so, I would inquire how he managed to do it. I think. lol

lightgrrl< It's implied that if I believe he can move the pencil, then he can. If I don't believe he can, then he can't. Maybe?

Trinkat< lightgrrl: I don't know whether I'd go that far, but have you ever seen the difference that a parent's attitude can make in whether or not a child can perform a task -- a child playing happily by him/herself pouring water from one glass to another until they realize someone is frowning at them and then they can't even pick up one of the glasses without knocking it over? I think that the attitude of observers (the audience) and how the observers make the performer feel has a lot to do with the quality of the performance.

guitarist< Ben: Did you ever work with Steven Covey (7 Habits), many years ago? In an audio presentation I listened to on the way home from Paris, he mentioned a guy named Ben who worked for the same manager as he and a bunch of other people did. This Ben seemed to take a different approach than everyone else, and succeeded to the point where the boss wouldn't do anything without Ben's approval. Was that you, perchance? (Your remark to Trinkat about the hostile audiences brought this presentation I heard to mind.)

Ben< guitarist: No, that was someone else named Ben. I didn't work with Steven Covey.

guitarist< These guys named Ben ... sheesh! :)

DestinyB< Though I haven't witnessed this particular thing -- movement of a physical object -- I have seen and experienced many unexplainable phenomena in my lifetime. I've also been told amazing things by trusted friends who claim to have witnessed them.

Ben< ALL: Okay, I'll post my thoughts about the implications of the Question 1 experiment (thus revealing how my mind works *S*), and then post the next question.

Ben< I see the implications like this: I blocked his psychic ability. What I have done, others can do. Therefore, human beings can block each other's psychic abilities. Further, humans are spirits in physical bodies; therefore, spirits can block each others' psychic abilities -- and spirits can block human's psychic abilities, and humans can block spirits' psychic abilities. And, because I know that most beings here in the mid-astral (earth-plane) do not co-operate with others very well, their ability to block each other's psychic abilities helps me understand why psychic powers aren't manifested more often than they are.

KAM< Ben: Nice summation!

Jello< It may well be safer that way. I know that many intentions and thoughts are negative and dangerous. Perhaps it is better that the energies cancel each other out (to an extent).

greyman< Ben: Or the fact that we are mid-astral automatically identifies us as "kindergarten level" entities. *G*.

FRAML< Ben: Ah yes. An implication of what can happen, such as when I shield before going into a possibly unfriendly area. I'm not only protecting myself, but in some ways protecting others, I guess, if I end up being a block for their psychic ability.

guitarist< Checks and balances ... if people could make absolutely anything happen with their thoughts or emotions, many more bad things would happen. Children often feel guilty when they wish someone dead and then the person dies. They feel as though their wish killed the person. Do we want to all walk around like that?

Jello< I walk around like that. *sighs* Luckily I seem to be a terrible psychic.

Ben< QUESTION 2: Suppose you try a little PK experiment when you are alone. You put a pencil on a table and try to make it roll away from you by thinking-at-it. Nothing happens. After several tries, you feel frustrated and then angry. You think-at-it "MOVE!" -- and the pencil suddenly rolls away from you and falls off the far edge of the table. What will you do with this newly-discovered ability? YOUR TURN

lightgrrl< I would try to determine if this force stemmed from my intense anger or from my sheer will to move it.

Ben< lightgrrl: Yes. Good point. If it is only done by anger, it is dangerous. If it can also be done by positive emotion, it isn't as dangerous.

Trinkat< Ben: I'd play with it. I don't have any need to go out and tell the world that I can do something, especially if it's something I have to be angry or frustrated to do.

Jello< I would hate to think that anger is the easy and fast way to get results ... but that's the nature of the "Dark Side of the Force" from Star Wars, isn't it? ;) The "Light Side of the Force" operates quietly, subtly, and patiently.

FRAML< Ben: Hmm ... my anger produced the reaction, not my controlled thought. To me, that is a dangerous aspect of the ability. I could cause harm to others without intention. As I've said to others regarding my self-imposed blockage of getting feedback about extrasensory messages, I'm carrying an inborn fear of mis-using the ability, or taking credit where it is not due .

SLIDER< Ben: I think I would experiment some, with the curiosity that I could really do something like that, and then get a close friend or family member to witness my results just to be sure I really did something extraordinary.

Ben< SLIDER: If you get a close friend or family member to witness your results, it would be well to remember the flip-side of this scenario, which I've already presented in Question 1. *S*

SLIDER< Ben: Yes, I would hope if I did accomplish such a feat that I would be able to repeat it at will, and would need someone that wouldn't chastise me if I failed. *S*

greyman< Ben: What one does with it is dependent on one's maturity level. A child will play with it until he or she pushes the envelope into un-thought-of consequences. A more mature soul will carefully experiment until a level of competence is acquired.

Ben< greyman: Yes, self-restraint is a symptom of maturity -- which is one reason why those who grow toward spiritual maturity become less and less likely to demonstrate the psychic powers they acquire along the way.

greyman< Ben: (unless they drive the Washington Beltway) *G*.

Jello< greyman: The Beltway is a spiritual nightmare, last I recall it.

FRAML< Jello & greyman: One must shield oneself before sending blessings to other drivers on the beltway or riders in the subway, for one's own protection against getting unexpected discarnate attachees.

Jello< FRAML: That I believe, especially on the Beltway! But it's true anywhere and everywhere. On the other hand, to not dare to bless anyone because of fear is also not a desirable state to be in.

DestinyB< I have done experiments to try to move a large chandelier, and it moved a little bit ... but then, it could have been the air currents in the room. I would only discuss such a thing with open-minded people talking about such things. Other than that, I would keep it secret. I've found that most everyday people don't believe in such abilities, and attack what they don't understand.

FRAML< DestinyB: True, that is why many folks similar to you have found their way here to Spiritweb, and into Ben's seminars.

Jello< DestinyB: I think some people feel attacked by a discussion that challenges their world-view, and react defensively or put up barriers. Been there, felt that. Luckily, it is sometimes fairly easy for spiritually aware people to detect others who are also spiritually aware.

Sprinkles< I would think, the increased energy or strength in my will power was what got the pencil moving. I would apply it again to see if that validates it. I would concentrate on that energy or force enough to have control of it. To search its strength and its weakness. The power of the will behind the thoughts, strength and weakness. Then again, I might scare myself and put it aside until I can find out as much as possible on the subject. If it is all in my head, I figure I might need a desperate rest. lol

DestinyB< I would think that strong emotions intensify latent abilities.

Jello< Strong emotions (as I can testify today) tend to make one less centered and more likely to screw something up by accident.

LEGS< Unfortunately, I fear I am psychic to a degree, but it is a knowing ... not kinetic by any means.

guitarist< I suppose that I would try again. However, I have a thought put in my head many years ago that demons will come in and do these things to deceive us and turn us on the wrong path. (How do we know this isn't the case, anyway?)

Jello< guitarist: Yes, as we both know, the desire for power can attract all sorts of nasties. :)

Ben< guitarist: Remember what I said last time about the act of blessing -- because it is also their intent, angels assist and amplify our blessing. The flip side of that observation is also true: dark ones assist and amplify our dark motives. And thus we attract either angels or dark ones to us, by our motives.

Jello< God help those whose motives are unknown to themselves.

greyman< Jello: I have found a source of power that freaked me out when I first used it. I have found that, under certain circumstances, white flashing energy is released by myself when I am in an intense state of anger. The anger is not released by physical body motion, but rather a collection of myself concentrating around me, and is directed out of my head. My mind speeds up and things around me go slow. After my anger has vented, things go back to normal (whatever that is).

Jello< greyman: I have gotten email from people talking about experiences like that (and yes, I don't know if they are the person himself or an outside influence). Your experience would seem to be pretty freaky, but knowing you, you do not try to reach that state or tap into anger as a tool to get what you want. :)

greyman< Jello: youbetcha!

LEGS< Ben: My problem is, when I do cause effects, I deny them to myself or question them to the point that I convince myself it didn't happen. Like, I can make the stars on the screen-saver slow down and stop by concentrating on them, pushing them away. Don't laugh ... it sounds dumb, I know. On the other hand, I tell myself that it is some sort of electrical interference that I cause, and not a psychic thing at all. So, I sometimes reject the things that have come to me because I don't personally prefer that to be what is going to occur. And sometimes when I do want something and see it attained, I tell myself it is wishful thinking, and when they do happen, I find new excuses and explanations.

Jello< LEGS: Maybe you can affect the hardware or software. It's the subject of fiction, but truth is stranger than fiction. What people can create, surely spirits can affect.

guitarist< Hey, LEGS, sometimes the electricity we cause is related to the spiritual phenomena we are talking about. Of course, some also have electric personalities. *g*

Trinkat< Ben: When you say demonstrate, do you mean allowing someone else to see them do it, or do you mean allowing someone else to even know they have those abilities?

Ben< Trinkat: Both. More spiritually mature individuals (incarnate or discarnate) are less likely to claim special abilities and also less likely to make a show of their abilities.

LEGS< Ben: I guess that saying what I did shows me to be spiritually immature. *lol*

[Ben< LEGS: There are a few times and places where people can talk openly about such things -- and, hopefully, this is one of them.]

KAM< Ben: If I found that with the concentrated air of frustration/anger, the pencil would scoot off the table, I think I would try to duplicate the action without the force of anger/frustration ... to find that force without the emotions originally utilized. Again, all of this experimentation would have to be documented even if I were the only one present during the testing. Such is my method ... but still, rolling a pencil is not a test of PK, in my humble opinion. *S*

FRAML< KAM: Good point. But, how about rolling a cigarette the hard way? Get a piece of paper, a pile of tobacco, and cause it to roll itself? *G*

KAM< FRAML: *giggling* ... that would be an experiment to document!

DestinyB< There are many reports of disembodied spirits playing with electricity ... like turning lights off and on ... why couldn't an embodied spirit do the same?

Trinkat< DestinyB: As an embodied spirit, I do that all the time -- it's called a light switch. (Sorry ... couldn't resist.)

DestinyB< LOL @ FRAML & LOL @ Trinkat!

Ben< Here's my own personal answer to Question 2: I would try it again, from time to time, but I wouldn't tell anyone or try to prove it to anyone, because I don't want that kind of publicity. And I would try harder to control my temper, lest I inadvertently throw things at people in anger.

guitarist< I would definitely not tell anybody I didn't know extremely well. However, if I saw something "in the spirit" (psychically) and felt it important to reveal it, I would tell what I know, but NOT how I know.

DestinyB< FRAML: How does one go about shielding oneself?

FRAML< DestinyB: I connect to Jesus and ask that I be encapsulated in a bubble of light. It has become almost automatic for me to do that. Go to Ben's site and see the Two-way prayer paper -- that is the beginning of how to elevate one's spirit.

DestinyB< Thanks, FRAML! That sounds magical!

FRAML< DestinyB: Not magical, but learned through practice and concentration. I can see how it could be considered that, but I DON'T do magic. (Hmm ... except for making potatoe-chips disappear.)

guitarist< FRAML: You and Dan Quayle. *LOL*

FRAML< guitarist: That "e" on potatoe is a quirk of Indiana spelling rules. *G*

DestinyB< FRAML: I have asked my spirit guide to offer protection ... especially when I do OBEs. It is good to know there are different methods, but the ultimate protection comes from the same source: the Creator!

LEGS< I'm not saying that I cause or change the outcome of things, but that somehow I know what it is going to be ... just as very often when I hear an unsolved murder case on the air, the guilty party pops into my thoughts immediately, and when it is a family member or close friend of the victim, I'm the one who is shocked into denying that it could be true. Then later ... sometimes months and months later ... that is who it turns out to be ... but this is not a comfortable or sought-for 'knowing'.

Jello< LEGS: Sounds to me like you have been hurt in the past by foreknowledge, or that you know something about it that most people don't, or something like that.

guitarist< Ben: I know someone who periodically gets precognitions. Like last year, some spirit being (she seemed to be asking herself) asked her, "What would it be like if someone from [my work place] were to die?" Not long afterward, one of my co-workers was strangled to death by her boyfriend and dumped in back of a grocery store. I can understand why LEGS would be scared of precognitive ability, if anything remotely like this happened to her.

[Ben< guitarist: Yes, precognitive ability is a mixed blessing, to say the least.]

Ben< QUESTION 3: Now suppose you have had both of the experiences I described in questions 1 and 2. What are the implications? For example: Do these experiences expand your awareness of what you are? Or the nature of reality? Does proving to yourself that psychokinesis is real expand your awareness of God? YOUR TURN

Trinkat< Any time that I prove to myself that I have a God-given talent, it expands my awareness of God -- since this is what I think psychic ability of any kind is -- so, my answer to the question has to be a resounding "Yes!"

SLIDER< For me, the experience would help confirm that I am more than flesh and bones and blood. It would enforce the idea of a cosmic connection to a flowing force that connects us all, dark or light.

KAM< Any expansion of our psychic abilities and our acknowledgment of same is definitely an awareness of a God-given talent ... one given by a higher power than ourselves ... so yes, it would make me thankful to God that he had expanded my abilities.

guitarist< The implications to me are that we have to learn more about the ripple effect we have on others even when we don't think we will have any effect (because we think that thoughts in themselves don't have as much power as actions). I don't think it expands my awareness of G-d; it might be a gift I would receive with thanks from Him, though. And I would do my utmost to use it wisely and well, toward blessing. I don't think I have this gift, however. *s*

DestinyB< I'd have to place experiencing that ability with all the rest of the unexplainable things that have happened all my life. Some things are just outside of what is considered normal human experience. Knowing these things exist deepens my belief in a higher power, and helps me understand that life is a personal journey for each of us. I like the fact that all of the mysteries of life haven't been uncovered yet.

LEGS< Yes, I think our awareness of God ... at least of the gifts of God ... increase with all knowledge if we seek to apply our understanding of Him in our lives.

FRAML< I would realize that I was given a gift that could be used to help or to harm. My personal orientation would be to concentrate on using it to help. I realize that some discarnates could influence us, and even give us abilities that they want us to use to hurt others. I'd test it in private, and talk with very close friends about this if I had any who wouldn't think I was bonkers. But my base orientation is to help, not harm. And I would not use it if I couldn't be helpful.

Sprinkles< My awareness of my being a spirit and soul in a human body and the possibility of the abilities it can apply are boundless. It is the blessings and the experiences as well as lessons of my life paths that expand my awareness of God.

5foot2< Awareness of God and awareness of man, the "joy of a gift" and the fear of one's fellow man ... hmmm ... On balance, I guess, good and bad.

Ben< Okay, here is my personal answer to Question 3: I see the implications of these experiences as: Psychic powers are real in some cases. I am more than a machine subject to the presently-known laws of physical science. There is more to reality than materialists or humanists will admit. I have some power, but I am not omnipotent (all-powerful), and I cannot become omnipotent because others can block my power. From this, I believe that God isn't all-powerful, because lesser entities (angels, humans, ghosts, demons, etc.) can choose to obey, ignore, or disobey the will of God, and because they can block each others' power.

Ben< /topic Discussion of the implications of psychokinesis

Jello< I guess that any apparent power should be used with great caution and with close examination of intent (wherever possible: an emergency rescue would be an exception). Always trying to use the ability in God's service ...

FRAML< Jello: I told my daughters that emergency rescue was the one exception in which it would be permissible to read a person's thoughts without that person's permission.

Jello< FRAML: Cool. Didn't know your daughters could do that. :)

FRAML< Jello: They can't, that I'm aware of, but the topic came up after we watched the movie "X-Men" last Sunday. We were talking about the powers of Dr. Xavier and Jean Grey (aka Marvel Girl).

guitarist< Ah, FRAML, I'm sure there are things even you don't know about your children. Maybe they're reading your mind right now!

DestinyB< LOL @ guitarist: now that IS a scary thought!

FRAML< guitarist: Well, I'm happy they know the ethical limits on doing it, without me having to explain those limits.

SLIDER< Ben: I don't think there is any way to know if it's PK or forces (good or bad) that are causing the reaction.

Ben< SLIDER: Whether it has good or bad effects (helpful or harmful) is much more important than whether it is coming from the incarnate person or through the person from discarnate spirits. The effects are what matters in discerning good or neutral or evil.

Jello< Ben: Not only the effects but also gauging intention would seem to be vital to me. For example, if the short-term effects of a hateful action are good as a result of that action (though it's possible for something like that to "wake up" someone in denial), then I start to wonder about the perceptions involved.

SLIDER< Ben: Yes, I agree. I think what I'm trying to say is, bad entities can seed good vibes to entrap you into a false confidence, trying to make you seem to be more than you are, in order to put the unsuspecting under their control to do their bidding.

Ben< Jello & SLIDER: Yes, it is important to try to discern intent, where intent means helpful or harmful results. Evil spirits (incarnate or discarnate) try to deceive us into their ball-park, and they often use flattery or offers of psychic powers to do that.

Jello< SLIDER: Yes, that's what I'm saying -- any power or gift must be put to God's service, or else the chances of it getting ungodly "aid" increases. I think that is true whether it is something like writing poetry or moving objects without physically touching them!

Ben< Jello: Excellent point. If we choose to put our abilities (and motives) into alignment with the good-will of God, we thereby reduce the risk of un-godly "aid".

Jello< Ben: It's just soooo hard to do sometimes, especially if one (1) doesn't know God well or (2) doesn't know oneself well. :)

KAM< Ben: You state "From this, I believe that God isn't all-powerful, because lesser entities (angels, humans, ghosts, demons, etc.) can choose to obey, ignore, or disobey the will of God, and because they can block each others' power." IMO, that is the plan of God ... for us to choose the path that we take. That choice leads to another crossroads, and that crossroads leads to others, and in each, it is in His preordained plan that if we take this path, or respond in this or that way, this or that will result ... and if we choose to disobey or follow a lesser entity, that is also in the "final packaging" of our life!

Jello< But what does God do when a person wants to go with God but for whatever psychological reason seems incapable of it? Heh ... time to send a shrink, I guess.

Trinkat< SLIDER: I have to be able to act when I think that it is a good thing to do, but I understand what you are trying to say, and I also have to stop before acting long enough to determine if the reason that I want to do something is for my own 'glory' (to have people say "Oh, aren't you good") or to really do good for someone else regardless of anyone knowing about it.

SLIDER< Trinkat: If you are thinking on those lines, you are a kindred spirit. It seems that words spoken in anger have the most powerful affect wherever they are aimed. Even if you speak anger to an animal, they feel the power, and it's hard to gain confidence back from someone you've yelled at.

Trinkat< SLIDER: Words spoken in anger are a particular 'boogie bear' for me. I read, when I was teenager, "Words spoken in anger walk away in 100 league boots and can never be recalled." I am one of those persons who have to make a concentrated effort to even verbalize when I am very angry -- it is so frustrating to need to say something and have your tongue locked to the roof of your mouth. Oh well, probably for the best.

KAM< Trinkat: I fear I would not be able to do any of the PK experiments if I were truly angry, because I cry when I become angry, and that makes me angrier, and then I only cry harder. LOL

Jello< Honest anger can be a very good signal that something is going awry. But it's very hard to accept anger from someone else. :-/ I am trying (not good at it) to see anger as a warning flag that someone is feeling betrayed, hurt, or poorly treated. It's a very easy sign to read (usually), and can help one help the other person. But if the target of the anger is in what seems like an inferior position (subordinate) then it just really sucks.

SLIDER< Jello: That person has to be made aware of free will and free won't. *s*

Jello< SLIDER: Free will and free won't ... except what does a person "will" if they don't know what's the right path to take? It's easy to say "Go the path of love, faith, and forgiveness" but many people can't just instantly get there without a lot of hard work. Which way to go when there's fog all around is rarely clear. Perhaps sometimes we might even have to backtrack to find the right way.

Ben< KAM: I like the concept that the spiritual paths are fixed, like roads, and their destinations are known, but each soul chooses which paths he or she will follow.

KAM< Ben: That was my point ... that regardless of which path is chosen, it is preordained what will result from choosing that path, and there will be a myriad of choices on each path chosen. *S* And we are given that free choice ...

Trinkat< Ben: Being a programmer type, I tend to see life as a decision chart -- once you make a bad decision, you can get back to the right path, but it's a lot more difficult ... and it really stinks that you can only read the 'past tense' of the chart, too. LOL

Jello< Except, what a horrendous burden if you have to examine every little tiny decision and try to figure out if it's a good one or a bad one?! Perhaps sometimes we have to just forge ahead and do what we can as best was we can?!

SLIDER< Jello: I know what you mean -- and there's always the shrink, as you said earlier. The right counseling will help, but there also has to be an effort on the part of person in question.

Trinkat< Jello: Thus is defined the human condition. I don't think anyone expects us to always make the right choices, but we have to recognize that if we make a wrong choice, WE made the choice, and we must work our way thru the consequences of that choice to correct it. We can never go backwards, only forwards, and few are those who can see thru the fog (future). And I also think that sometimes we learn far more and are far better off from some of the 'work' involved in correcting a bad decision. IMHO

KAM< Trinkat: Amen to that!

Jello< Yeah, sometimes I think we have to make bad choices in order to fully see a situation.

LEGS< Jello: When we are seeking God's will in our decisions, I believe we can trust the next step to be where He wants us to be. We step forward to be where we are needed, do what we must, and be joyful in the Lord.

Sprinkles< LEGS: Yes, I agree. *S*

Jello< LEGS: Hmmm ... maybe ... but a person's willingness to follow God can vary moment by moment ... a day of humble faith followed by a day where God is nearly forgotten. We must be very hard to work with.

SLIDER< LEGS & Jello: Have you ever noticed that when things are all going good for a while and you fall into a sort of random existence -- BAM! -- something upsets the cart? *S*

Jello< SLIDER: Heck, I've noticed that, once a cart's been upset, the other carts nearby are more likely to be upset, too.

SLIDER< Jello: It must be the flow of energy that turns them other carts over, flowing the wrong way for a while.

SLIDER< Ben: I feel most people have an inner intuition of what's good and what's not, and they try to follow that mind-set. But during the course of a life time dealing with all the spirits we come in contact with, be they incarnate or discarnate, some take us briefly away from our goals.

[Ben< SLIDER: Many (incarnate and discarnate) souls have an inner intuition of what's good and what isn't -- and many don't, as you pointed out in your second sentence.]

Trinkat< SLIDER: Incarnate, dark-eyed, slightly unshaven men have taken me away from more "be a good girl" goals than I like to remember. LOL At any rate, I think you have to recognize your own weaknesses, because that is where the attack would be focused. When you recognize the area you have to guard, you are less likely to be taken by surprise.

Sprinkles< Trinkat: I agree there, too, and if taken by surprise, put your dukes up and learn the ropes in and out of the ring real fast. *VBG*

DestinyB< SLIDER: A very good point! LOL @ Trinkat!

Sprinkles< Ben: I must admit that when my discovery of certain abilities came about, at first it scared the dickens out of me. I was wide open to just about anything and everything. I had to learn real fast that this is not a game, and my ego is certainly not the means for these abilities. I met dangers and learned real fast how to protect myself. I am very cautious (although I may not seem to be). If anything other than help was the motive behind my abilities, I would stop in my tracks. But I still don't know why I have these abilities. *S*

Trinkat< Sprinkles: Does there have to be a 'why'?

Sprinkles< Trinkat: When you come from a family of 12, yeah! My siblings always ask me.

Trinkat< Sprinkles: Use my granddaughters 'answer-all' ... "cuz why!"

Sprinkles< lol @ Trinkat. I'll try that. *S*

Ben< Trinkat: I like your decision-chart illustration, and think it is accurate. I might add: in evaluating a soul's present direction and likely destination, mature spirits do not even consider the paths that soul *used to be* following.

Trinkat< Ben: The only reason to review 'used to be' would be to learn from it. I certainly don't think that 'used to be' is anything to dwell on. It's a waste of time, IMHO ... but sometimes relating one of those past decision points can be an aid to someone else. Hmmmmm, that sounds like parenting, doesn't it?

Jello< Ben: Ugh, I never liked that thought. A spirit could have put in 99 days of upward devotion, and stumble on the 100th day?

DestinyB< Jello: I believe that you can go forward or backward in your spiritual quest. I was in a six-month depression (caused by medication I was taking), and emerged at a lower level than when the depression began. Even though I have the knowledge of that higher level, I still haven't caught back up!

Trinkat< (((DestinyB))) You seem to be well on the path, dear. *s*

Ben< Jello: I believe that one's general direction is more important than any little detailed decision. Most of our mistakes are less than lethal, spiritually.

Jello< Ben: OK, so when you say "paths that soul used to be following," you mean where there's been a real, serious, deep-down change.

Ben< Jello: Yes. What I said about paths that one used to follow can be seen either positively or negatively, but very few of those who have tasted the spiritual food of heart-warming good will and loving kindness turn entirely away from it. They may wander, but they return to the source of their food.

DestinyB< I agree with Ben. We continue to be tested our entire lives, but once we know how it feels in the light, we seek to return there when we lose our way.

Jello< Ben: Heh ... *wanders up to door* *whine whine whine* *scratch scratch scratch* *hopeful look*

KAM< Jello ... LOL

Ben< Jello: Welcome! [HUG] There is good food here. Enjoy!

Jello< Yes, there is some amazing food here. Just have to learn by diet which is REAL food and which is a poor substitute. And you know there are those who claim theirs is the real food when in fact it is poison.

Ben< Jello: Yep. We need to learn what is real food and what is poison.

DestinyB< I agree, Jello! I'm always concerned when someone comes into chat and asks for some direction ... from anyone!

dusk< What concerns you about that, DestinyB? I have often asked advice "to the room." *s*

DestinyB< dusk: What concerns me is that the asker doesn't seem to know what direction to go in, and asks for guidance from anyone at all. They just want something to believe in, and are ripe for the picking by dark forces as well as light. People need to find answers about what they want to believe on their own. They don't need a Guru who is a stranger to them.

Jello< DestinyB: Ah, yes ... people who are very eager to experience psychic things are often like that. They want to throw energy bolts or astral travel. :-( Very ripe for the picking. (Been there, done that, been picked.)

dusk< Thank you, DestinyB. *S* Wise words.

Jello< I read a disturbing news story just a few hours ago, and I think the people involved need prayer badly. If you are seriously interested in praying, please /mesg me and I'll send the URL.

[Ben< Jello: I think that is an interesting and appropriate way to handle such a request.]

KAM< So, Ben, if we can make things move ... mentally ... your caution to us is to be careful of when and where we do it? *S* And under what conditions? One of the things we girls learned early on was that other people didn't do or know the things that we did, and most of them didn't want to know, so we became very cautious and protective of our abilities to foresee ... to "know" ... to have our OBEs ... to read auras ... to make the lights turn on and off ... to move things. We learned to shield heavily and to cover those in the family who did not know how to shield ... and to thank God for our abilities and the knowledge of when and how to use them. *S*

Ben< KAM: What you described maps your growing maturity in the use of those abilities -- self-restraint or personal initiative, as appropriate, with both self-restraint and personal initiative governed by good-will and loving-kindness.

KAM< Thank you, Ben, for your kind words ... *S*

----------

FatherTime< Question for the room ... does any one here think it is possible to grow spiritually if you are *not* balanced spiritually?

spiritheart< In my humble opinion, to be totally into spirituality, while ignoring the mental, emotional and physical development of the mind and body, keeps us off balance. We came to this planet to experience being human and all the things that come with it ... incorporating our spirituality into our lives helps us meet the challenges presented in dealing with these things.

Jello< FatherTime: I don't think anyone is 100% balanced spiritually, but many of us appear to be growing anyway!

DestinyB < FatherTime: It's always possible to grow spiritually. All one needs is a desire to move toward the light.

KAM< FatherTime: We each grow spiritually as we gain experience and knowledge, whether we are balanced or not.

FatherTime< Jello: Do think it is not possible to grow spiritually when we are fully out of balance?

Jello< FatherTime: What is "fully out of balance"? Any direction from "fully out of balance" would be toward balance, no? *G* Seriously, though, as long as one is living (either incarnate or discarnate), there's hope, IMHO.

Trinkat< I think that spiritual growth brings balance into our lives, but I also agree with spiritheart that balance occurs when we are aware of all elements. You can't clean all the rooms of your house except the bathroom just because you don't like cleaning toilets, ya know! You can't sit on your duff and exercise your brain and your spiritual senses while allowing your body to atrophy!

SLIDER< FatherTime: Use spirituality as the fulcrum to find the balance. This gives one something to work the balance toward.

Jello< FatherTime: Sometimes it takes being out of balance to grow ... or perhaps let me put it this way: we can fool ourselves into thinking we are doing fine, when in fact we are not. Becoming "out of balance" can be an unusual opportunity to see where things are going wrong and to work on those issues. While we may not instantly grow upward, we may be learning and setting the foundations for later spiritual growth.

FatherTime< So, should I understand it that no one here believes like the eastern faiths do, that to grow closer to your higher self you need to be balanced?

Jello< Sorry, but I don't think classic Eastern Religions teach of a separately conscious higher self.

FatherTime< Jello: Yes, I think I mis-spoke myself. I was implying the belief that (in a Buddhist way of speaking) to attain nirvana one must be balanced ... completely.

Ishtahota< If one is fully in balance spiritually and in harmony, do they need to grow anymore on this world?

DestinyB< Ishtahota: We always need to continue to grow while still on this plane. When we have finished our mission ... we die.

Ishtahota< DestinyB: I was being a smart ass. It was one of those divine paradox questions, like the chicken and the egg. Was picking on FatherTime.

Sprinkles< FatherTime: I think it is just as possible for the balanced Spiritualist to become unbalanced. Free choice, free will. *S* I don't think anyone is turned away. But the choice is theirs.

spiritheart< FatherTime: The question needs to be answered, what do you see as spiritual balance?

FatherTime< spiritheart: I see spiritual balance as a point of no movement and no growth ... imho

spiritheart< FatherTime: Not so with me; there is only progression or regression, no standing still ... becoming more aware of all the possibilities or forgetting who we are.

Trinkat< FatherTime: Oh, NO -- no movement and no growth is stagnation, not balance.

FatherTime< Trinkat: Look at it this way ... if you balance something ... say, on a nail ... can it be moved without it falling?

Jello< FatherTime: Think of the analogy of a gyroscope ... it is stable because it is moving.

FatherTime< Jello: This is true ... but is it balanced while it is moving?

Sprinkles< FatherTime: Does it matter of the chosen path one takes, if the road leads to the same destination?

FatherTime< Sprinkles: No, it doesn't truly ... but no one here knows if it leads to the same destination. The farthest we know is death.

SLIDER< FatherTime: There is no death unless you chose to be non-existent; there is only change.

FatherTime< SLIDER: I was speaking of physical death, friend.

Jello< Aikido teaches that to be at complete rest is death. You want to be vibrantly still, not dead still.

Sprinkles< FatherTime: In my experience, I have met spirits that have passed on. So, because I have experienced these encounters and I am sure there are those who may have sensed someone they were close to who has passed on, in their everyday activity have sensed a familiar spirit's presence. Can be an indication that although the body has passed the spirit is still free and has not became a total death. IMHO *S*

FatherTime< Sprinkles: I have had that feeling myself, but it does not tell me what happens after I die. It just tells me that it doesn't always happen the same.

DestinyB< FatherTime: I don't believe that it is impossible to grow spiritually when one is out of balance, but it is more difficult. Sorry, I can't agree with your idea of spiritual balance as being a point of no movement or growth.

FatherTime< DestinyB: I am not asking you to. Just wanted some opinions. *S*

Trinkat< FatherTime: I don't see balance as something that is static. It is a state which is constantly changing and shifting. The balancing part comes in not letting it fall over or shift too far to one side or the other. Scales are balanced and by nature cannot be nailed to anything. IMO I think that balance is a state to be sought constantly and attained briefly and hopefully often ... like the guy with the spinning plates, maybe. I don't think that the 'balance' in my life is something that can be attained and then ignored ... unless I want all my plates to fall.

Ben< FatherTime: IMO, spiritual growth is like physical conditioning, in that we need to work to improve our weak points rather than focusing entirely on our strong points. This moves us toward balanced development. However, it takes a form of humility to honestly look at our own weak points.

FatherTime< Ben: This is true. However, to work on our weak points, we must also put our strong points out of focus ... we are forced to focus on the weak points to make them strong, therefore throwing us out of balance.

KAM< FatherTime: Not necessarily ... focusing on weak points should only make them stronger, not let the strong points become weaker or out of focus ... as they should be okay without constant reinforcement, or they are not "strong" points ... so your premise isn't quite right, IMHO.

FatherTime< KAM: If we do not keep our focus on our strong points, they will become weaker. As things change around us, so we must change to keep up; the same with our strong and weak points.

SLIDER< FatherTime: When you have attained your strong points, they are not discarded if you attempt to work on weak points. The balance comes from knowing the strong points and using them as a reference as you attempt to build up the weak points.

FatherTime< SLIDER: Yes, but with time the strong points will also become weak if not focused upon, I believe.

SLIDER< FatherTime: It's like riding a bicycle: you may get rusty, but you don't forget. And you will find that many of the points you thought weak will become stronger than the ones you thought were strong, and visa-versa.

FatherTime< SLIDER: This is true, and tells me that in that sense we are always out of balance.

Ben< FatherTime: There are two kinds of static balance, depending on where the support is placed. For example, a pencil standing upright on something below it, like a desk, is unstable. But a pencil attached to something above it by a string, is stable.

FatherTime< Ben: Yes, this is true also, but if the pencil is hung from a string, it is not supporting itself as we are.

Trinkat< Teaching children to address all of the sectors of their daily lives -- mental, physical, emotional and spiritual -- is the primary job of a parent, IMO. With any luck at all, the child will learn the need for constant attention to ALL of these to maintain balance in their lives.

Jello< FatherTime: I think focusing on "balance" in this life might be a red herring (that's my own opinion). Sometimes, to purge oneself, one has to get sick first, before one can truly get better (or so some nutritionists say, right?). If one tries to get to a point of stasis in this life, that's like putting the cart before the horse. The important thing for us to do is to grow, not to try to be stable. Does that make sense?

FatherTime< Jello: Yes, that makes perfect sense ...

Jello< FatherTime: I think some people are touching the table but are supported by strings.

FatherTime< Jello: Could you please elaborate on that for me? I don't follow ...

Jello< FatherTime: I was elaborating on Ben's analogy in a different direction (and I hope it's a valid direction). If most of us are like objects on a table, subject to the rocking motions of the table, some people are tied to God, who is far above the table. So, while such people may be hurt or injured when the table rocks, they are still ultimately safe because they have a line helping them stabilize and preventing them from falling. (Other people aren't even connected to the table.)

FatherTime< Jello: That is a valid direction, and a very good point, but (imho) the faith that person has in god (i.e., why did god do this to me? etc., etc.) is not very stable itself.

KAM< FatherTime: What we need to do as we gain spirituality is to grow as "evenly" as we can ... but we shall always have stronger points and weaker points and some non-existent ones ... so we just try and do the best we can ... to attain the highest level we can at any given point in time. Also (IMHO) NO ONE achieves the type of balance that you have indicated ... and a balancing without growth is stagnation. We cannot achieve the ultimate goal and still walk the earth as humans.

SLIDER< BRB

spiritheart< I see balance as a process of being able to move forward without stumbling, and if by chance we do (which is often in my case), I use my strong points to fall upon. Balance is not 'good versus bad', but more of a certain clarity to make the choices necessary to met our goals, whether mortal or spiritual.

FatherTime< spiritheart: That is a good way to look at it (imho). I think that since we must (in the physical meaning) put ourselves out of balance to walk forward, we must put ourselves out of balance to walk forward in a spiritual sense. Does this make sense?

DestinyB< FatherTime: That makes perfect sense!

FatherTime< DestinyB: Thank you. *S*

spiritheart< FatherTime: I don't quite follow you, unless you're meaning that a certain amount of stress (chaos) pushing us to higher levels physically, mentally, emotionally and spiritual. I think that could be very true in some cases ... I've seen it happen in my life.

FatherTime< spiritheart: Yes, that is what I mean. *S*

Jello< FatherTime: There is a way to walk that is less unbalancing than the way most people walk, though it takes a little training. :) Seriously, though, life is growth and change (though interspersed with periods of rest ... even children grow in spurts). If we stop changing utterly, we are either perfect or inert. Odds are it's the latter, not the former.

DestinyB< I like that explanation, Jello!

Ben< FatherTime: Dynamic balance requires a reference to the vertical, some means of sensing mis-alignment with the vertical, and some means of correcting back to the vertical. We featherless bipeds do a pretty good job of walking upright on the surface of the planet, most of the time. However, we need the same three elements of a dynamic balance system spiritually.

FatherTime< Ben: This is true ... however spiritual growth is not always an upward motion ... generally speaking, but not always.

Jello< Ben: What are the 3 elements?

Ben< Jello: (1) a reference to the vertical = a sense of which way is up, spiritually, higher, better, truer, kinder, wiser, (2) a means of sensing mis-alignment with the vertical = a calibrated conscience; and (3) a means of correcting back to the vertical = ability to change one's desires and thus one's direction.

Jello< Ben: Ahh, I thought these were going to be three prongs for 3D-space triangulation/calibration. :)

Sprinkles< FatherTime, When a child is born, learning of balance is taking place as soon as the first breath is taken. How much balancing and at what time is different for each and every individual as well as what practice the individual chooses to apply. Some may not know how to balance on a bike, but can balance on skis. The balance is applied to the need of the individual to progress or not. The choice being still with the individual and what it is that the individual wants to attain with the applied effort. (IMHO)

FatherTime< Sprinkles: Yes, this is true. I will be the first to admit I am trying to grow to a point of perfect balance, but without imbalance this cannot be done.

Jello< I think that I prefer the Aikido version of perfect stability: it is like the gyroscope I mentioned ... it is active, vibrant, always moving but yet very still.

LEGS< The nirvana that the Buddhists strive for ... look at that word ... strive ... is the ultimate and also comes with the skill of living without eating, breathing fewer breaths, etc. They teach that each breath is a revival from death, and that death is nirvana. So, personally, I'm not ready for that state of being, and I do not believe it is a direct translation to being balanced ... two different things, IMHO.

FatherTime< LEGS: Unless I am mistaken (and I very well could be), they do associate nirvana or at least attaining it with balance ... they insist that you must balance it with physical life, and in doing so, upon the completion of that physical life, you will attain it. Nowhere does it say this, but from my observations of Buddhists and in my own brief practice of it, that is what I noticed.

Jello< I am beginning to be convinced that we can reach "dead ends" that are like high ridges above the swamps ... to move further we must go down before we can go up again. But maybe this is just me trying to justify myself.

FatherTime< Jello: What I am implying in this whole thing is that, with any type of change comes imbalance ... and change helps us to grow ... and therefore I believe that imbalance helps us to grow.

Jello < FatherTime: If you define "imbalance" as "imperfection" or "movement" ... yes, both of those are sort of prerequisites for growth, I think. :)

FatherTime< Jello: Yes, that is what I define imbalance as. *S*

Jello< FatherTime: Then I think it's by definition true. :) I found the interesting concept of mu (nothing) versus yuu (everything). Mu does not contain yuu, but yuu contains mu. I'd rather be with yuu ...

FatherTime< Jello: By definition, yes. *S* And I also would rather be with yuu.

Trinkat< ((((Jello)))) I'd rather be with yuu, tuu ... sorry, tongue is in cheek and couldn't resist ... again. *s*

Jello< Trinkat: hehe ...

FRAML< For me, spiritual balance is a quart of single malt scotch in one hand and quart of Jack Daniel's Black in the other. Prost!

FatherTime< LOL @ FRAML ... Good one! hehehehe

LEGS< {{{FRAML}}} *lol* Now, now ... *s*

FatherTime< Thank you all for the input and wonderful discussion. *S* Now I must be off. Blessings of the Dragon be upon each of you 'til our paths cross again. *S*

Ben< FatherTime: I think of spiritual growth in terms of growing up, through various degrees of spiritual maturity.

Sprinkles< Goodnight FatherTime. *S*

Jello< Take care. :)

Ben< FatherTime: Ah ... I didn't see that you are leaving. Blessed be ...

----------

[The following was interspersed with the foregoing discussion.]

poohbear11< Room: May I ask for some prayers and healing? I am running 103 fever and feel so rotten. Is it Ok to ask?

Trinkat< (((poohbear11))) Prayers, love, light and healing arms to you, sweetheart.

KAM< (((poohbear11))) Sending loving vibes of energy and well being ... and of course you have my prayers, luv ... feel better soon ...

Jello< Blessings, poohbear11. See a doctor!

spiritheart< poohbear11: May you remember how wonderful it feels to feel good, to feel alive and be of good cheer ... you deserve this.

Sprinkles< poohbear11: (((hugs))) My prayers are with you, dear one. *S*

DestinyB< Blessings, poohbear!

poohbear11< Thank you. I am just so wired my whole body is so achy. It's been like this for two days.

Jello< Poohbear11: See a doctor ... seriously. A high temperature in an adult is dangerous.

poohbear11< I am on Monday, sweety, that's the best I could do. I am no longer on Medicaid and have thousands of dollars of hospital bills to pay, or I would be going to ER right away.

Jello< poohbear11: Ugh. Have you taken aspirin or other fever reducer?

poohbear11< Let's see ... took like 3 Tylenol ... took it a bit down to 102 now.

guitarist< Poohbear: In the meantime, try to take a lukewarm bath. If you find you can't do this, take a wet washcloth or towel and rub your body with it. As a child with a 102 degree fever, I had this done to me and it helped a lot. :)

poohbear11< Will do, hun. Thank you. I am extremely sorry to have interrupted what you guys were talking about.

dusk< poohbear: May I ask if you are suffering from the flu ... or is it more concerning than that? It is quite dangerous for an adult to have such a high temp. (healing hug) *S*

poohbear11< Well, I have bad lung disease and get bronchitis a lot and am having breathing problems, but my whole body is so achy so I wonder if it is the flu.

guitarist< Fever and chills! Try to drink a lot of water.

poohbear11< I will. brb I'm calling hospital to see if they think I should come in.

Trinkat< (((poohbear11))) How is the fluid problem, sweetheart? Has that situation been resolved?

poohbear11< Yes, sweety, it's doing A-Ok. :) Seems to be going away by itself.

Jello< poohbear11: I hope you are also taking in proper nutrition, fluids, and getting rest.

poohbear11: Sort of, sweety, it's been kind of hard to do. I baby-sat two boys and I usually have them every day and they are young and I haven't been really able to eat a lot for some reason but I have a lot of fluids.

KAM< poohbear11: Hope you're feeling better. *S*

poohbear11< Well all, this girl is tired. I am hitting the hay. Have a wonderful evening. :) Thank you for your kind and thoughtful words.

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Sprinkles< Well, I must say, "a very interesting seminar". *S*

Ben< Comment for the record: as everyone here tonight has demonstrated (again), courtesy helps and graciousness is a blessing. !Salud!

Trinkat< (((Ben))) Thank you so much for another very interesting seminar and discussion -- even if we did get off the track a bit. *s*

LEGS< Yes. Ben ... ((((((MaryHugs))))))) ... thanx ... and Trinkat and KAM have been trying to keep me on track all evening ... this train don't carry no orders, this train ... *G*

KAM< Ben: You are so sweet to us ... *S* ... We try to be courteous just for you. *G* Not really, but we try to be always, and that is what makes it so meaningful to have these seminars. We learn a lot more than what the topic chosen brings us ... but I shan't enumerate. *S*

Jello< Thanks to Ben, and of course, everyone here ... good harmony today, I think.

guitarist< Yeah, much better than last week. I agree with Jello. :)

KAM< guitarist: Well, hume didn't come to play tonight. *S*

Jello< And thanks for the prayers tonight. Actually, thanks/kudos for the prayers last week, too.

Sprinkles< Ben: What is the topic for the next seminar?

Ben< Sprinkles: I'm not sure yet. However, several people mentioned precognition, and that's a bear of a subject area!

KAM< OOOOOOH Ben, yes, do the precognition one. It shall be so interesting!

Trinkat< I don't think precognition will be one seminar ... not with my family participating. *s*

Sprinkles< Ben: Yes. That would be a good one. I'll be here! Ooops! Is that precognition I just did? lol I see you asking some very interesting thoughts for our contemplation. *S*

Jello< Severe illness and spiritual approaches to illness and caregiving and caring for caregivers is another topic, I think.

LEGS< Jello: How sweet of you to suggest that! Thank you for caring.

Jello< LEGS: A number of people I know seem to be in the caregiving/caring for caregivers boat these days. It is very hard sometimes ... and I myself have been spared the worst of it so far, so I can't even begin to understand what many others are going through.

Sprinkles< Jello: Yes, I like those topics, too! *S*

Trinkat< Jello: Excellent suggestion! Caring for caregivers is a topic that gets short shift.

Jello< Trinkat: Especially over long distances. Caregiving, illness, and issues of distance seem to be a recurring theme in my life right now. :-/

KAM< Ben: Whatever you decide to present will be welcomed by your participants ... don't worry about that. And Jello, that is a good topic ... caregivers need some special recognition and assistance to get through their chosen chores.

Ben< ALL: Okay, there's my "go-to-bed" alarm clock, so I'm headed for some rest. Peace and blessings to each of you, as always.

SLIDER< Sorry for the quick departure. Had to go dispatch a rattler on the back porch.

KAM< (((SLIDER))) ... quick work, too!

FRAML< Naughty SLIDER -- breaking the baby's toy. *G*

Trinkat< SLIDER: You could have talked all night without saying that -- grew up in the West Texas desert -- can't stand snakes. Although broiled rattlesnake is not bad.

LEGS< Oh, SLIDER ... they can be very intrusive at times. Good to see you here. (((hugs)))

SLIDER< I'll try to be back soon. *S* Now I'll say good night, too, and peace be with you all. Thanks, Ben. Bless every one 'till next time.

Ben< SLIDER: Just caught your post as I was leaving. Congratulations on dispatching the rattler so no one gets bit.

SLIDER< Ben: I have to go look for more, as that's the second one this week on the porch.

Ben< SLIDER: Sounds like you might need to have a few hogs around the place.

guitarist< SLIDER: Ben's suggestion to keep a few hogs around the place to eat rattlesnakes is a good reason to have them. (I would keep the hogs more as pets, and not eat them. :)

Ben< Okay ... now ... *foomp!*