FRAML< /topic BEN'S SEMINAR: 11 Sep, a discussion.

FRAML< Greetings All. Tonight my questions for discussion are going to be a bit different. I'm not initially going to be asking about what you believe or what you think, but what you know.

FRAML< First off I'll let you all know that I do not work in the Pentagon, but across the river at Ft. McNair. I do go to the Pentagon on a regular basis to do research and interview Army personnel. I worked in the 2nd sub-basement of the Pentagon at the end of the 7th corridor for 2 years in the early 1980's. That area is 2/5ths the way around the building from where the plane impacted.

guitarist< For one thing, I know I am glad we are all alive and well.

FRAML< 1st question follows

FRAML< Question 1: Where were you and what were you doing when you heard about the planes crashing into the World Trade Towers? & what time was it?

Ben< I was in my kitchen drinking coffee and reading the paper about 9:00 am. My son called and told me to turn on the TV.

daCrone< I awoke +/- 8:00 cst ... after the first plane hit -- while radio news reports were saying maybe it was an accident ... by the time I got to the living room and turned on the tv, the second plane struck ...

guitarist< I heard about the first plane crashing into the Towers while I was driving in to work. The announcer initially reported that it was a small plane that crashed into the towers, probably an accident. It was around 9AM (1400 GMT).

Slider< FRAML---- I was in my truck on the interstate and my wife called me on my cell phone right after the first plane hit tower one. Time about six fifteen or six twenty pacific time.

suitESPirit< I was reading the morning paper...10:00 AM a friend called & told me to put on the TV ~~~

croc< Good afternoon all... *VBS* ... to answer your question FRAML ... i was online chatting in stonehenge at the time and it was 11pm Tuesday night..

Yopo< Hello, ALL... On my way to work, around 8 AM CST... Heard on the radio...

suitESPirit< How about YOU FRAML ????

FRAML< I was at my desk at the Center of Miltary History at Ft. McNair in Washington DC. Our secruity manager was going from desk to desk telling everyone that the WTC had been bombed. It was about 9:30. I didn't turn on the radio.

yankl< I'm the Chief Engineer of a music format radio station in Philadelphia. Tuesday morning I came into work slightly late, about 9:15AM EDT. Usually I listen to the local news radio station while driving in, but that day I was listening to a CD. Of course, when I walked in the door, I instantly found out what happened and spent the rest of the day converting our station to a news operations center.

suitESPirit< Thank you ~~

guitarist< I got to work and heard from people about those they knew, It was then I began to realize that this was more than the first report had me believe. By the time I found out that I could hear Peter Jennings on the radio (Channel 6 in Philadelphia has a radio channel, 87.7 FM), the second plane had struck.

FRAML< 2nd Question: Same questions about the Pentagon?

daCrone< I was on line and watching tv coverage of the attacks on the towers when the news of the Pentagon came across ... when I heard, I was standing in the foyer between two rooms

Yopo< Not sure what time it was. Maybe half an hour later? Telephones started ringing, and rumors were flying. We had a simultaneous report that the White House was on fire...

croc< i was still in henge and also had tuned in the tv ...i saw the plane hit the Pentagon

Slider< I had arrived at my bosses house and was watching MSNBC when I heard about the pentegon --not sure about the time as I was glued to the tv set watching all that was happening.

guitarist< I was already at work and on the Internet when I heard about the Pentagon. I have a hot link to the Washington Post on my computer desktop, since I use that publication in my company's environmental scanning efforts, and this was my news source along with Yahoo for the rest of the day.

Aiki-Walk< I was at work by myself and turned radio on at 10:30 and learned about all of it.

Ben< I was watching TV when the second and third planes hit. Not long after that, I heard a loud noise, recognized it as a sonic boom, and thought "That's a fighter in a hurry. Another hijacked airliner is on its way."

yankl< I was setting up a television to monitor CNN in the control room when that news came accros.

guitarist< Yeah, Ben. I imagine that you, FRAML and greyman all heard that noise.

Yopo< Interesting, Ben. I heard on CNN today that jets had been scrambled to intercept one or more of the hijacked airliners, but were way too late...

FRAML< I was still in my building. I think I had gravitated to the conference and took a look at the tv which was showing the WTC. I heard someone say that a small plane had hit the Pentagon at about 10am. Shortly before that the tv announced that there had been a bomb go off outside the State Department.

Yopo< I hate to think what a fighter pilot would have been going through, if he'd gotten there a little earlier...

guitarist< I also heard that a bomb went off in one of the office buildings, but that one was a false report.

Yopo< Hmm... We haven't heard much about the State Department report in recent days, have we?

Aiki-Walk< My brother was almost parking to do briefing at Pentagon annex as the plane came down and hit it.

Slider< Yopo-- Yes I have also thought about that, yet the FBI isn't saying that the Penna crash wasn't shot down.

Aiki-Walk< oopd, sorry

FRAML< Question 3 follows

FRAML< 3rd Question: What were the reports that you initially heard that proved to be false?

Ben< Yopo: The pair scrambled from Otis AFB on Cape Cod were still 70 miles away when the second plane hit the WTC. The two that came over here were scrambled from Langley AFB (near Norfolk, VA), and they were in time to intercept the 4th airliner as it headed this way across Pennsylvania. (I've done the navigational arithmetic.) As it turned out, they didn't have to shoot it down because the passengers intervened.

Yopo< Slider I doubt it was. The impact crater shows little signs of fire. I heard somewhere that the pilot or someone else may have managed to dump the fuel...

Aiki-Walk< that car bombs were involved in NYC and bombs in WTC in addition to airplane hitting it

Yopo< Ben Ah...

Slider< I heard that a plane went down on the Washington mall that the Capital building had been hit as well as the state dep. which all were retracted whitin about twenty min.

daCrone< initial speculation about the first plane hitting the tower on accident was first that was not true ... I also heard one or two bomb reports that apparently did not prove to be true ...

guitarist< [See my post above and put it under this question.]

Ben< The front page report in the Washington Post yesterday, about two more teams of terrorists arrested. They retracted that one today.

Yopo< Well, the false report about the White House burning. Rumors about secondary explosions in the WTC towers.

daCrone< the story of the man who "rode the building down" from an 82nd floor seemed to be a composite of several stories and fiction as well ... but that was a bit later

FRAML< The State Department bombing was retracted at about the same time the radio confirmed that the Pentagon was hit by an airliner. They also announced that there was a bombing at the Capitol Building, which was also retracted later.

Aiki-Walk< bomb threats in Prince George's county schools

Slider< Yopo --There have been pieces of the Pa plane found eight miles from the crash site, of course we will never know the truth on that one even if it was shot down.

croc< i heard that the plane that hit the Pentagon was intended for the WhiteHouse but that possibly it could not spot it so hit the Pentagon instead thinking that may have been it

Aiki-Walk< "marked" sites in Anne Arrundel County and Baltimore City for that day too

FRAML< Question 4 follows.

FRAML< 4th Question: What was your initial reaction to hearing about these attacks. (if you remember it)

Yopo< Slider I didn't know about the wreckage found 8 miles away. Gonna file that for the time being under "interesting, but unconfirmed"...

guitarist< I heard speculation that bombs were planted in the WTC. However, I didn't believe them. It turns out that flaming jet fuel was enough to melt the steel girders and beams inside the centers and bring both buildings down, without the "benefit" of bombs. I think they got more mileage out of the planes than they expected. (Puns unintended. But I'll leave them there anyway.)

Aiki-Walk< thought they were playing a bad immitation of Orsen Well's War of Wars - Halloween spoof. Had to go to TV to convince myself it was so. It was. Shock, anger, sadness followed.

daCrone< my husband had gotten up to make coffee and had heard the report of the first plane ... he came in as I was getting up and listening to the radio ... he repeated the possible accident scenario ... I told him No ... it was an attack

Yopo< FRAML My reaction? A growing sense of unreality. Wondering if maybe I'd wake up to the alarm going off, and find the REAL Tuesday morning only beginning...

water_dreame< Good evening everyone, mind is I sit in?

croc< my reaction was at first of disbelief, which turned to panic and fear...i got offline and woke the household up to tell them

Aiki-Walk< Radio report sounded so unreal

daCrone< while my first response was that it was an attack, my immediate reaction to that was horror for the dying ...

water_dreame< Once I realized that this was not an accident, all I could do was cry for the people on the planes! And then for the one's in the buildings........lots of tears lately!

daCrone< my third reaction was concern that other actions might be underway

Yopo< guitarist I suspect the collapse of the towers had been worked out and was fully expected. The point in each structure that was struck seemed precise. I think someone knew that hitting them there would create a predictable failure. Nothing happened by accident.

guitarist< When I heard about the first plane, I felt sorry for the pilot's accidental error. When I heard about the second one, I knew then that it was on purpose, and I was angry. By the time I heard about the Pentagon, I knew it was terrorists. I was damn angry then. I've been watching the Israeli situation all summer, since the Dolphinarium bombing in June, and I've had a feeling these people had bigger fish to fry at some point. But never did I imagine this.

daCrone< somewhere between the three responses, I knew it meant war

FRAML< Yopo: The unreality of it was my reaction as well, even after seeing the footage of the plane impact on the 2nd tower. Then, I though of it as being a total act of war and not just another crime.

Ben< Slider: Best guess about the pieces 8 miles away: a passenger on a cellphone reported that the terrorists said they had a bomb. That may have been true. If so, when the passengers rushed them, they exploded it, and that's why the plane went down so fast. (Also, NORAD has stated that plane wasn't shot down. They might be lying, but I doubt it.)

croc< on the 2nd day i was sad and confused

Slider< FRAML Them dirty Ba--ards and thoughts of mid east terrorist--and then I thought of all the people on the planes-- then as I watched the two towers fall the feeling of helplessness for all the people that have surly not survived--and offered some prayers and asked for Jesus to hepl all that were in need.--then of where the friends I have working in NY were and hoping they were safe--and then I thought of you and Ben in DC area and hoped you were not in harms way.

yankl< After the initial shock of the attack, my attention turned to protecting the radio station from an attack and being taken over by terrorists for their propaganda purposes.

daCrone< when I realized the war word, I emailed and called all my daughters to confirm they were safe

FRAML< 5th Question follows:

FRAML< 5th Question: what happened for the rest of the day at your place of business and/or what did you do for the rest of the day at home?

Aiki-Walk< sad, that is was like Vietnam in our land...don't know who the enemy is or who he will look like or when it will happen so angry for lives taken needlessly and horrifically

water_dreame< We watched the tv all day and prayed a LOT!

Aiki-Walk< got in touch with owner, she decided to finish day, so I had to finish day. It was hard to concentrate. Worry about my brother and sister-in-law. Walked my dog alot.

Slider< FRAML -- I guess that I was also in a state of awe and shock that something so terrible could happen in the U.S.

daCrone< I stayed home and monitored tv and net ... except for a walk to the corner grocery to get bread ... I stopped everyone I ran into and asked them please, if they prayed, pray now ... I stayed homebound for next two days

Aiki-Walk< didn't get home till 6 it was hard to work all day

Yopo< I work for the federal government. We initially decided that an effort to keep up business as near usual as possible might be for the best, but it quickly became apparent that wouldn't be possible. By about 11:00 Central, we got a call that sent us all home. I spent the rest of the day in front of the television, trying to figure out what was going on. Now I'm STILL trying to figure out what's going on.

croc< unfortunately i was on jury service and empanelled...i found it extremely hard to just switch off and focus on the case at hand...the jury at first hoped that the Court House would close in sympathy

guitarist< It was very hard to work for the rest of the day. For that matter, I've been struggling to get some work done all week. My boss is stuck in Trinidad as we speak. He had meetings there and cannot get back (as far as I know, he was going to try flying to Mexico and make his way into the States through other means). He'd planned to visit his daughter and her family (they have his first grandchild) in Florida. He's Jewish and Monday night begins Rosh Hashanah (New Year). He may not make it there in time.

Ben< I thought the first one was an accident. When I saw the second one hit, I knew what was happening and clicked into combat mode -- cool clarity with emotions off. I wasn't surprised when the 3rd one hit the Pentagon, or when I heard the sonic boom, or when the 4th one was reported.

FRAML< It was announced that as of 1030am all Federal offices were ordered closed for the day and all workers were released. We historians were hanging around the tv set or radios. BGen Brown came through our section about 11am and a few of it discussed it with him. He said that it made sense to sit tight for a while, especailly since all the bridges were already clogged with cars. We also specualated on follow up attacks against DC. And a few comments were made about what we, as Army historians, were going to do to document the story of the attack and its aftermath.

daCrone< one of my daughters works for a retail company ... they called her at home and said to stay home, they were closed ... the next day when she when to work, she had an high priority email: WE ARE SHUTTING DOWN ... WORLD TRADE CENTER HAS BEEN ATTACKED ... WE ARE SHUTTING DOWN ... WE ARE SHUTTING DOWN ... // the emotion of that message brings tears

guitarist< My boss called on Tuesday and said that my co-worker and I could go home if we felt like it. We both said no. We'd gotten a notice that if people had children who were getting out of school early, they could go home. Neither my co-worker nor I have young school-age children. I didn't want to leave because I imagined that traffic would be bad for a while, and I would wait it out.

yankl< Every chance I got during the day, I called a loved one to make sure they were okay. My wife, my son, my sister and so on. It's not that they were anywhere near the attacks, but I just had to hear their voices and at the same time, let them know I was okay, too.

FRAML< Ben: I think that was it for me as well. Calmness. But I also had a desire to be back in the Army Operations Center in the basement of the Pentagon where I once worked.

Aiki-Walk< had to handle phone appts with clients for owner and cancels, upset people and be quasi therapeutic when I was so upset for the destruction and worried about family. It was a mess for me at work

FRAML< I got a call from my wife saying that my oldest daughter (17) was in the counselors office and in hysterics about whether or not I was safe. She knows that I often go to the Pentagon. That was about 10:45. I got hold of her and got her calmed down. I told her that her mother was coming to pick her up and take her home for the day. They announced a little later that the county schools were closing.

guitarist< I kept most of my emotions at bay (I was aware of anger, but I wasn't so surprised that I couldn't control it). In fact, I got a headache because I wanted to cry, but couldn't. This lasted 3 days.

FRAML< My closing summary follows:

FRAML< Tonight I decided to focus on examining what we remembered about hearing about the attack and what we were doing. This exercise was to provide each of you a record of "where was I" while it was still fresh in your memories. It is also to provide you a "record copy" of your own initial experience that you can download and keep for yourself and your family. Thank you all for participating my history project tonight.

peacenik< What will each of you be doing in your own lives to make the world a more peaceful place? Is there anything that can be done to reduce the seemingly eternal human desire to annihilate one another?

FRAML< /topic Open Discussion The Attack on America

Ben< FRAML: Thank you. Well done.

croc< FRAML.. thanku for arranging this..i will place my records with the newspaper i have kept

daCrone< yes, FRAML ... & FRIENDS ALL ... thank you

Slider< FRAML --Ben -- I have been following the news all week pretty close and --don't hate me for this -- but have realized that the terrorist plan was simple and brilliant, they hit us in our weakest spot of security and used the complacity of our good will toward peoples of all the world. Then I started to wonder why some one would sacrifice them selves for a cause that we don't believe in and realized that this war started before the crusades at a time when the first christions were not as forgiving as we are today. And they are taught to hate the west from birth with a religious doctrine drilled into them.

FRAML< peacenik: I shall continue doing what I have done for most of my life. Doing my best to protect this country and to keep it strong. I shall also live out my faith in all my interactions with others.

yankl< To me, the day was a horrible flashback of Nov 22, 1963. I was in 11th grade in high school, and was working after school on a science project. My physics teacher walked into the room and said the president had been shot. I found the only TV in the building and set it up to watch Walter Cronkite tell us all that President Kennedy had been killed.

FRAML< Slider: Also, Osama and the other radical Moslems like him remember that in early medieval times the Arab world was dominate and they want to recreate that by destroying Western Culture & Civilization, which they see as the detroyers of their ancient glory.

daCrone< when I go into crisis mode, I am fairly clear and reserved ... I have been aware of feelings, empathy for dead & dying and their families ... I have been astonished at the magnitude of the destruction -- the silt of concrete and glass ... anger, as yet, is not an emotion I have had to deal with

peacenik< FRAML seems to be the only one who is addressing my question...

croc< peacenik..for myself ...i will maintain my belief in peace-keeping and hope that this will rub off on one person...if so, then i have helped to bring a better world

guitarist< Thank you, FRAML...I have thought about some of the statements the supporters of terrorists have been making, to the effect that this was a judgment on America by G-d. I don't believe that, mainly because I see the incredible response of people reaching to help one another through the crisis. If we as a country and as a "free world" weren't capable of turning from our usual self-centeredness to help in a time like this, then I might think about agreeing with such an assessment. But I think the terrorists are wrong: wrong about terrorism in the first place, and wrong about how bad they think we are. (And, who do they think they are to send that message in this horrible way!)

FRAML< yankl: I later thought about that day. I too was in the 11th grade. It was lunch hour and a friend told me that the President had been shot and I told her that that was not a funny joke. The next class period was US History and the teacher brought in a radio and we listened to it for the rest of the class.

peacenik< How we intend to act in the future seems more important to me than what has happened in the past, though of course the past can be an important source of wisdom. But the future's coming down fast right now folks, and it should not catch you unprepared.

Slider< FRAML I didn't know that little piece of history ---thanks

Yopo< It disturbs me deeply that our country and its symbols are so hated. <From someone's perspective, that hatred is justified. We really don't know what it is that motivates our enemies so strongly, do we? That makes it hard to understand what must change for the world to become a more peaceful place.

Ben< peacenik: As for myself, I intend to stop tolerating those who teach hatred, and those who make excuses for genuine aggressors or cast blame on genuine victims.

Aiki-Walk< I am working with children who need principles to live by. Continue to walk my faith walk myself and with children at church. Continue to stretch myself learning aikido and karate. Continue sitting zen and going to church for my own spiritual life. Sharing my journey and with those placed in my path.

FRAML< peacenik: Also your question was basicially the same one I heard back during the Vietnam war, and the folks who asked it then never seemed to have an answer other that "give the other person what they want and they will not want to fight us." Unfortunately that answer is as invalid today as it was then.

Aiki-Walk< none of these are my ft job...just part of me

peacenik< Speaking as a non-american, i can tell you that much of the world sees america as very self-indulgent. Clearly, that doesn't justify violence in the ind of any ethical person, but it is the basis for resentment in a lot of people.

Slider< peacenik---There is a time for peace and there is a time for war --I just hope the american public have the stomach to follow through with what has to be done to stop the terror our pres has vowed to stop.

guitarist< peacenik: Last week, I held a seminar here on the acceptance of others. This is a topic I have thought on a lot, and studied as well. I have a very diverse group of friends, and will continue to do so. This week, I galvanized my company out of its paralyzed state by seizing on an opportunity to provide the rescue operations in NYC with goods, and asking them to help me load my car so that I could deliver them to a truck that went there Friday night. These are examples of what I will continue to do to make the world a better place. Does this help?

peacenik< those of you who are followers of jesus are certainly familiar with his teaching to olve your enemy. Obviously that is an incredible difficult thing to do, especially at times like this. But frankly i don't see many people even trying.

croc< sadly in the human state we have written centuries of history that shows us that we are intolerable of accepting each others cultures, religions and views....to shift this to a totally peaceful and accepting race, we all must begin to hold the belief of peace at all costs

FRAML< The reality of this still hasn't really sunk in to me yet on an emotional level. Even after driving past the Pentagon and seeing the damage and interviewing two of the Army civilian employees who were injured in the attack. I will be interviewing more of the injured and uninjured survivors over the next few months.

Ben< guitarist: I will speak against Falwell and Robertson. They are blaming the victims (us) and saying that God allowed this attack because we are sinners. They do not know my God.

peacenik< I question whether there is ever a time for war...but then I've been incredibly blessed to have lived a very peaceful existence, and have never been in the position to have to make that decision.

FRAML< peacenik: what is your own answer to your question?

guitarist< I think, between the last posts of Ben and myself, the principle is: Love the sinner, hate the sin. Accept people of all kinds, but do not tolerate the evil they may do.

daCrone< in monitoring regular news channels, I have heard phrases and statements that I do not recall hearing during previous incidents ... in the frist days, I heard 'healing' and 'spirit' and 'unity' ... I've heard them since, as well, but I was surprised enough on the first day to hear them that I made a mental note of the rethoric ... it is possible I was deaf before

daCrone< thank you, Ben ...

Yopo< peacenik Self-indulgence is very high-profile. The corporate global economy is likely seen by many folks abroad as being equivalent with the government of the United States. To my sorrow, I believe there is more than a little truth in that. Our values as a people are generally commendable, but our collective actions as projected by our government are largely based upon a will power and material acquisition. We are seen to have the heart and soul of a very agressive and self-centered corporation.

Aiki-Walk< there is a difference to me in being a doormat and accepting anything in the name of peace and being willing be active in obtaining the peace which another does not count as valued or life as sacred at the personal and governmental levels if that makes sense

FRAML< It is interesting that there are nearly 500 British citizens who work in the two towers who have not yet been acounted for and dozens from other many other countries. Thus the attack was on more than the United States, but upon a symbol of the western world.

peacenik< FRAML- I do what i can to minimize the suffering i cause to all living beings, meaning i am a pacifist and a vegetarian, and help others when i can. I would like to say i have an all encompassing plan for world peace, but have sadly not worked that out yet. I try to remain calm when disagreeing with people, which is an improvement over when i was younger. I find meditation helps a great deal in increasing feelings of tolerance and acceptance of others.

Yopo< ..."a will to power", I meant to say...

guitarist< Ben, I haven't heard this about Falwell and Robertson. It's been many years since I even listened to what they had to say. I'm surprised at them (and now that you remind me, I'm not). You are right, from what I remember about their relationship (?) with the Divine.

suitESPirit< I work in the mental health field.. I was called back to work this past week to help with the overload of calls from depressed, shocked, anxious etc. people... I have been working 10 to 12 hrs per day, just listening...doing my very small bit to help.. I remember the 2nd World War... Twas not a good time..but we became such a united nation then...Personal sacrifices were nothing because "another, fighting for our safety" needed "it" more....

Ben< peacenik: The first recorded word of Jesus we have is the word "Repent." Why? Because mercy applies to the repentant. Justice applies to the unrepentant. I pray for those who are programmed to hate, that they may repent and become friends.

peacenik< Ben, if you are waiting for someone to "repent" before you will be their friend, i question if you're helping the situation.

daCrone< yes, FRAML, it was more than attack on the US ... it has much wider implications, imo ... // maybe I am in a different reality, but I have seen more compassion and basic agreement here in Houston as well as globally than I ever thought possible ... under the heading of things I thought would never happen: a moment of silence in Cuba for the attack ... ranks pretty close the the Berlin Wall coming down

Slider< Ben --As for your post to guitarist--- I believe that each of us will face the god we know when the time comes, are there G-Ds that others worship --lesser gods I think so-- if we want to stop some one that kills the innocent for a political or religious cause we have to go and do the job completly or face the same problem in a year or two years or ten years. We are protecting our way of life and the future for our kind.

FRAML< Slider: Yes. Terrorism has been treated as a crime instead of the war that it is. And it is now the time to respond in a like manner. And this act has proven that the terrorists see it as a war with no limits on who is a target. Osama bin Laden has a video tape out in which he says that it is not only the US Government which is the enemy, but all who live in the US.

Ben< Slider: Yes, he is not innocent who self-righteously stands aside and does nothing while aggressors attack and destroy the innocent. In my opinion, the call is to stop aggressors by whatever means necessary, and then stop ourselves so we do not become aggressors.

FRAML< Ben: Agreed.

Aiki-Walk< Ben, that expresses what I've been thinking without words to put to it thank you

peacenik< the first noble truth of buddhism is that life is suffering, and the last few days it has been easier than usual for me to believe this. I'm sure i could have many different disagreements with all of you, yet still i wish you only peace and happiness, and peace of mind most of all.

guitarist< Ben, I was referring to what bin Laden, Arafat, and other Arabic leadership has been saying. Christian leadership has nothing to do with my comments on the assessment of the sinfulness of America or the Western world.

Ben< guitarist: I haven't listened to Falwell or Robertson in years, but I've been replying to a lot of emails this week, and many people have asked me what I thought about those statements.

daCrone< I think what you are doing, suitESPirit, is most important ... I feel it is important for all of us who can to reach out to others and allow them to talk about this ... regardless of our positions, we can be of service to that which is greater in this way ...

croc< hello Zendi...intolerance will always cause unrest..even Jesus was judged by intolerance...i believe that as long as the human race exists, that whatever measures we take now to try to halt this from happening again, will in the long run not be maintained...mortals have this in-build desire to be aggressive and control and power-munger

peacenik< No, Croc, i think that's a socialized desire. Very deeply socialized, but escapable.

guitarist< peacenik: I think Ben's right on this one. It doesn't help to try to befriend one who cuts your hand off as you try to shake it in friendship. Just ask the Israelis.

peacenik< With all due respect, the Israelis have hardly been trying to shake anyone's hand in friendship.

yankl< I must leave for the night. God bless you all.

croc< peacenik...socialised it may seem...as i stated earlier..i, as a mortal, will maintain my beliefs in peace and speak them out in hope that somewhere it may begin to snow ball outward

guitarist< peacenik, I'm sorry that I must say this: you know nothing about it, I'm afraid.

FRAML< peacenik: If I may, how old are you?

peacenik< I'm 37, why do you ask?

FRAML< I was just wondering.

peacenik< I'm not defending anybody who picks up a gun or a bomb, or especially who murders thousands. All I want to see is a certain level of consistency in the organizations who claim to oppose this. I want to see people get SERIOUS about peace. I've been around enough to not believe that the US government is serious about it. They've done a lot of good in the world, and they've done a lot of harm. Why not just do good?

Slider< FRAML --I talked to my friend from NY today and he was down at ground zero on tuesday night running an excavator. He was asked to go down again on wensday night and declined. He said it was a horribe carnage of the kind he has never seen. We all have to pray for the workers that will be in this carnage for the next two or three months -, it will take at least that long to clean this up.

Aiki-Walk< Sometimes it seems like a person can lose contact with their humanity and connection to the larger community and act out of their chosen reality. With someone like that to just accept and forgive without clear definitions and boundaries between person and actions is asking for bigger trouble each time.

Yopo< I don't know about you folks, but I feel very disoriented by the past week's events. I have no idea what sort of America I'll find myself in, in a week, a month, or a year. We'd found this sense of "unity", but I'm not sure if it is real or illusion, because we're united around a common emotion at the moment. We all seem to want decisive action, but I'm not sure we've taken time to think about what the proper action is. We've almost got a Declaration of War with a "fill in the blank" line... *sigh*

peacenik< Yes, Yopo, that's exactly what you've got, and it scares the hell out of me.

Yopo< Near as I can tell, we've declared war on "evil". This is a bit too vague for my liking...

Slider< Yopo ---I think the whole country time shifted on tuesday morning.

suitESPirit< You haven't begun to see the problems yet ~~ Those poor workers are in shock right now.. This is why they are searching...it's helping them !!! Pretty soon the Post Traumatic Stress Disorder will set in... Expect to see many "breakdowns" in the future... We must pray especially for them, (as well as the others ) ~~~

daCrone< Yopo ... I agree with you about the unity ... the kind that is being promoted via corporate sponsored gatherning, does not feel as genuine as that which I say the first day ... I live in a neighborhood where I am the cultural minority ... all of the people I have spoken with, people who have on ordinary days some divided loyalities, were firm in their feelings ... whether or not this holds, we shall see

croc< although i understand that we cannot allow terrorists to kill and hold a total disregard for human life, it is my experience that history has shown that wars serve similar purposes...therefore i search for another way...a way different from the past...a new way that might help to change or solve these intolerances...i do not excuse these cowardly acts, yet maintain prayer for the aggressors...feeling that retaliation is as low an act as the perpertrators

Slider< Ben --Yes stop ourselves so we don't become like them???? So hard in war for the warrior. May God forgive us before the shot is fired.

peacenik< Please don't characterize me as naive because i speak of peace. I have seen both sides of this story, and have no illusions about just how vicious human beings can be. I'm not some airy-fairy nut who thinks that everybody can just hug and it will all be groovy. I just believe that actions have inevitable consequences, and violence begets violence. Clearly, a response is called for, obviously. But if is to be effective, it should be a reasoned, careful response, not a response borne of mass hysteria, which is what seems to be building in the US at the moment.

daCrone< absolutely, suitESPirit, absolutely

FRAML< Yopo: There is a terrorist infastructure that exists. Osama is one of the keys, but he has a lot of help, some of it from countries who are operating on plausible denial. The key phrase in Pres. Bush's statement was "the terrorist and all nations that harbor them." There is the target in concrete terms, such as the declaration of war against the Barbary Pirates who operated out of countries on the Mediterranean coast of North Africa in 1800.

croc< what one expresses outwardly in their nature is the energy that is expected to be returned...being an aggressor is not the answer...it only serves to create more aggression

Slider< peacenik --I am a warrior and I agree with your logic, and I also hope the responce to this act is not only a knee jerk.
Yopo< FRAML I'm neither hawk nor dove by disposition. If we know who's responsible, and we know their nest, there's every reason to irradicate them, even if some innocents must suffer in the process. That is in the nature of war. I only hope we also have the courage to take an unflinching and look in the mirror before we act.

daCrone< it is also my sincere hope that our response is not knee-jerk or hair-brained ...

peacenik< It's hard for me to take US government's words about "terrorism" seriously after having spent time in central america in 87 and 88. I heard the words here, and saw the reality there, the two were very different indeed. I'm sorry if it's a rude shock, and these comments are in no way meant to denigrate the sufferings of those who died this week, but the fact is that when it serves its interests, the US goverment also supports "terrorism".

daCrone< as I said before, I may be living in a separate reality, but I do feel a difference in what is afoot now and what has been afoot before

Yopo< And thanks for a very thought-provoking session tonight...

peacenik< I feel for those who died, for their families and friends. It makes me sick with grief. But I have no use for governments and flags anymore. I will never wave anybody's flag again. All I want is peace.

FRAML< *****POOOOF*****

guitarist< I think the reason we haven't struck out yet is because we're cleaning our own house first -- in addition to reasoning out what to do. The people may be upset and wanting to "rush in where angels fear to tread," but I don't see our government being that way. I found it almost comic relief when they picked up 10 people in NY airports, then had to release almost all of them. But, now I think they're being more careful.

peacenik< Who knows, perhaps i am impossibly naive. Perhaps its time to take the robe and disappear into the monastery...

Slider< Peace is the sence of security one fells after anothers blood has been shed to give them that security. I'am not a war monger ---That's just the way it is.

guitarist< *Comic relief mixed with annoyance with our stumbling around*

RainboDragon< peacenik, maybe it is time to take off the robe and walk earth as everyone does, imo

peacenik< slider, that is a very creepy thing to say. I do not associate my peace with anybody's bloodshed.

LadyHarmony< what may be needed are the tools of communication and understanding to get at the deeper causes of terrorism...

Yopo< Think I'll wander over toward the 'Henge for a bit. I've been thinking about this stuff all week, as have we all I'm sure, and maybe need to lighten up a bit. Good night BEN, peacenik, "glorp", ALL. Blessings!

Ben< peacenik: I have past-life memories of entering the monastry to escape the world. And the world is still a messy place. *S*

zemi< guitarist, out of the ten people taken into custody, one of those people ended up being a material witness to the WTC disaster and had tried to pass as a pilot...it's more the media hastily reporting these actions without really checking into it first.....

peacenik< the monks who wear the robe probably walk this earth in more awareness and compassion than all of the rest of us put together.

peacenik< ben-if you entered the monastery to escape the world then you entered it for the wrong reason.

Ben< peacenik: By saying I entered the monastery for the wrong reason, you are judging me or my motive. But you are not my judge, then or now.

Slider< peacenik I don't mean to be blunt --but you should read up on some history-- there is no where in this world that a people is not protected by someone else.

daCrone< we have to secure things here as well as abroad ... the folks who have evacuated from other countries have to be secured ... difficult to do with planes not flying ... national handshakes have to be confirmed as well ... from what I have heard, there is the possibility of pre-wars
peacenik< slider, perhaps you have a different definition of "this world" than i do. I respect your opinion, your right. As my wife (also bluntly) has pointed out to me: "It's a mean fucking world."

LadyHarmony< zemi, you're so so? Any particular reason? I myself am fine...and my kids safe...for the moment..

peacenik< well, i have to go to sleep. thank you all for talking. pray for peace.

daCrone< blessings (((peacenik)))

LadyHarmony< my son lives four miles from the Pentagon...and my new son-in-law was close enough to hear and feel the force of the explosion during the attack... I do understand the concern and need to see that such attacks can not happen again.

guitarist< Yes, zemi. You are right, the media tend to say things without checking as thoroughly as they should. It was worth it to get the material witness. This is the same media system that (at times) brands Israel as aggressive warmongers, while they carry on a mainly defensive stance.

peacenik< Ben, all i meant is that many people have the mistaken opinion that monasteries and meditation are about "escape" when in fact they are more about in-your-face, blunt reality than anything else i've ever encountered. I was not trying to judge you, please accept my apologies.

zemi< Just writing my feelings...don't know if any of you will think my feelings are justified...I live in a pretty bad neighborhood (drugs, killings...you name it)...I'm right across from the WTC site...I'm very pissed at the attitude of alot of the people around were I live...They are doing drugs, playiing music and clowning around...sometimes til' the early hours of the morning...How can one have compassion for the human race, when you live around such cold-hearted people (zemi, kinda angry and sad tonight)

Slider< peacenik-- It is not a mean world unless you consider the natural ocurring disasters mean--- but there are quite a few mean human beings running around keeping folks on their toes. (S)

LadyHarmony< zemi, those people are choosing (for the moment) a life out of balance..a life of escapism and distraction...

zemi< LadyHarmony...God bless your kids :) /// guitarists, I agree...there are many Israeli's, even in the military who have set up organizations for peace with the Arabs, but, you don't see that in the news...

LadyHarmony< zemi...apologies...have not "heard" you well enough... I do hear (now) that you're very pissed at the attitude of a lot of people (doing drugs, etc)..

guitarist< (((zemi))) What can I do to help?

daCrone< (((zemi))) ... perhaps it is a type of escape or a form of denial ... I dunno ... people do really strange things when they are threatened with loss or things they cannot comprehend ... I send you much love and many (((HUGS)))

Slider< --zemi-- Maybe it's those folks type of realise from what's going on--- Then again some folks don't have a clue about hats going on.

daCrone< some folks, as well, are just, well, not too swift ...

Ben< peacenik: apology accepted. *S* I remember that living in the monasteries (more than one life) wasn't a piece of cake, to put it mildly, but in those days, it was better than living in the world at large.

Slider< zemi (what's) going on.Missed a letter(s)

LadyHarmony< I wonder how much, if any at all..."Active-Listening" was employed at the peace talks between the Israelis and Palestinians... so much communication takes place on a "I have more power than you do, so I'm going to dismiss anything you say" basis...

zemi< LadyHarmony, it's just a complete lack of respect or reverence for the lives lost...I mean, even on the morning of the disaster...many people thought of it as something cool or amazing happening....not with shock or compassion...///guitarists, just sending good vibes to these cold people...*smiles*

guitarist< zemi, daCrone, LadyHarmony: I think people are reacting to the unexpected. Many people really believed we were invulnerable. Now they know better, but they haven't trained themselves to respond appropriately.

Ishtahota< zemi the world is cold to these people.

LadyHarmony< Ishtahota, true!! the rites of passage are not there for our young... all around them is chaos and insanity and distraction... we really should be encouraging them to find their vision...because without it, what do they have?

zemi< Slider, it's just the lack of respect towards the WTC events by the people who live around me....:)

Ben< ALL: Time for me to rest. Peace and blessings to each of you. *poof*

daCrone< yes, (((guitarist))) ... similar, but far greater than, people who lived in small towns two decades ago and didn't lock their doors ... then inturders came in ... the lives of the townspeople changed in a twinkling ... they were shocked and scarred

Ishtahota< A younger generation can not bring change to this world without the support of the older generation. It just can not be done.

LadyHarmony< guitarist, true... the invulnerability has been shattered...and individual and "mass" adrenaline has risen out of a natural desire for self-defense... ///(((hi MarriAna))))):-)