Amazon Chat Room
Ben's Seminar: How long is it until soul reaches its final destination?
Sat, 23-Mar-2002

FRAML: Hello.

calmwaters: hello to all, I look forward to talking with someone this evening

FRAML : ((((GUITARIST)))) Hi calmwaters. We will have a discussion here in a few minutes. If I can come up with a topic.

FRAML: SEMINAR CONCEPT: These seminars are open to anyone who wants to attend. Each seminar will explore a stated topic. Each meeting will be a one hour guided discussion, followed by unguided discussion of the topic. There will be no fees or other charges, no grading system, and no predetermined "school solution." Selected portions of the meeting transcripts will be posted on this site -- but not if they contain a statement such as "off the record".

greyman: Namast* dear ones!

FRAML: SEMINAR GROUNDRULES: Courtesy is expected. Instead of attacking what others believe, say what you believe -- or politely ask others to explain what they post. Please keep your posts reasonably brief, and please don't get into off-topic side conversations. Please use the private message function to send greetings to new arrivals and to "whisper" in class once it starts. That way the text is easier for everyone to follow, and it is easier for me to clean up the transcript afterward.


guitarist: ((((FRAML)))), ((((greyman)))) -- nice to meet you, EderPils, FurtherEd, calmwaters and Dust3796.

guitarist: Yankl is on his way, will be here in a couple of minutes. :)

greyman : Greetings Framl - Palm Sunday in T-1 hour 53 Minutes.

guitarist: Looks like it's just us, Bethany Mobsters! *s*

FRAML: I could never remember if Swami was male or female. She was from Australia.

greyman: guitarist, How are you doing?

FRAML: But when does Psalm Sunday begin?

FRAML: guitarist---yep.... I hope we don't get charged with racketeering.

FRAML: ((((((LEGS & YANKL)))))))

yankl: Greetings y'all!

LEGS: Swami ... female healer with a sense of humor

greyman: Palm Sunday in T-1 hour 50 Minutes. *G*

LEGS : (((((FRAML))))) (((((Yankl&guitarist))))) (((((greyman)))))

guitarist: I'm fine, greyman. I have the next 4 working days off to clean house and make the Passover.

LEGS: midnite tonite

selki: Hello everyone

greyman: Hiya Yank!

LEGS: (((((((selki))))))))

FRAML: order said: I only knew that she was ill.. was cancer of the liver I believe..she shared this with me.. we share only a few times after she was ill..I was praying and holding out hope that she might be healed and so remain here with us for awhile longer..but, guess God wanted her more. sighs

guitarist: {*{*{*L*E*G*S*}*}*}

greyman: {{{selki}}}

FRAML: (((((((SELKI)))))))

guitarist: Hi there, (((selki))). How are you, dear?

selki: FRAML..swami was a wonderful loving woman, I will miss her very much..we were very good friends..she was my spiritual sister.

FRAML: guitarist: At least that isn't the same amount of work as making an over pass.

FRAML: selki: Can you provide any more information about her illness?

selki : (((LEGS)))((greyman)))(((guitarist)))(((FRAML))) happy Palm Sunday..

guitarist: Please forgive my ignorance, for I fear, for some reason, I am confused regarding swami. I remember someone with a longer name with "swami" included. Are these the same person?

greyman: selki, Palm Sunday in T-1 hour 45 Minutes. *G*

FRAML: Guitarist: Did you hear about the fight in the Jewish delicatessen over the last box of Matzo mix?

selki: FRAML well, she got sick about a year ago..thought it was gall bladder, had the tests etc, found cancer, the cancer spread to her liver, and her brain. She went recently for treatment but was unable to continue, went to the hospital shortly after she returned home from the cancer treatment center and remained there..

FRAML: guitarist: this swami, was just "swami".

guitarist: (((alremkin)))

FRAML: Hi alremkin.

alremkin: Hi everyone.

guitarist: FRAML: (groan -- waiting for a punchline)

LEGS: Bless her heart... she will be playing the bagpipes in Heaven now

selki: guitarist her nic was swami..

selki : LEGS *L* AND knitting on the veranda..*I have to laugh because when she would play the bagpipes, I would ask her if she could play far far away. LOL..I am going to miss my friend.

FRAML: It was a real Matzo brawl.

LEGS: when did she cross over, selki....

guitarist: Thanks, all. I'm having a hard time remembering her. I must not have known her as well as you evidently do. greyman: Ahhh I love the pipes.

FRAML: For last week: what do you call a papermache' stone?

selki : LEGS It was around 10 am according to the topic there..

FRAML: LEGS: perhaps that is a topic for tonight. Where does one's soul go and how soon does it go there after the body expires.

greyman: One of my roomates in collage played the pipes at Perry High School, Rockville Maryand.

selki: My boys talked to her several times on the phone, they loved her..

LEGS: I am looking for Dust to come back... he is the one with whom I am co-authoring a book.... he had a death experience during WWII.... seriously... and was once the sheriff after the war in the area where Texas NASA is now

FRAML: A shamrock.

Dust3796: Hello all.

LEGS: (((((((Dust))))))))))) welcome to the sem inar... we may now have a topic.... how fast does the soul leave the body when one expires?

FRAML: hello Dust3796

LEGS: hello alremkin

guitarist: Glad to see you back, Dust.

FRAML : /topic Ben's Seminar: How long is it until soul reaches its final destination?

guitarist: Sounds like a belated happy St. Paddy's day is in order, FRAML...

LEGS: Let's see... selki is in Florida, Framl & greyman in DC, me in TX, alremkin in Calif, Dust in Montana, Guitarist and Yankl in Ohio

FRAML: 1st Question: According to what you believe, what happens to a person's soul after their body expires?

alremkin: Hi LEGS, I was born in California, but now live in Vancouver, BC, Canada.

Dust3796: Hello all. Love and light to everyone. On earth I am a slow person; however, I had a death experience many years ago. After I was pronounced dead, It, in earth time, was about thirty minutes. A terrific amount of activity took place during that time.

guitarist: Guitarist and Yankl are in Delaware. LEGS, what do you know that we don't???

LEGS: My thought is that we are instantly out of the body, and perhaps on our way to Heaven, if that is where we have aimed our destination by our actions on earth

guitarist: Wow, Dust. I am very interested in your story already. My interest in near-death experiences led me to this chatroom about 2 1/2 years ago.

Skycatcher: No real ideas on this one. I assume there's a parting, and a Journey, possibly with a Light, maybe Others, but those are only impressions.

LEGS: welcome Zendi and skycatcher... where are you located on earth and how long will it take your soul to leave your body when you go....

selki : I'm still working on ahhh what is the right word??? -- rationalizing, tho I hate to use that word. I'm working on accepting the events I experienced after my mom passed. I was able to see her, I know I did, no one can tell me that it didn't happen. It was several hours after she passed, when I saw her, it looked to me like she was just waiting, sitting there waiting in front of a pulsating light, the whole time I watched her, she looked like she was becoming that pulsating light, I called out, she could still hear me, she looked at me, I felt like I could have walked thru that place where she was then and would have been able to talk ..time and space seemed like it stood still..Hoping this makes sense..

LEGS : you will have to wait for the book with all the details, guitarist

Dust3796: For what it is worth, the mind and soul seem to be at one with each other. My body was lying on the table but I could see everything. If my eyes were in my body, how was I seeing without eyes?

cassandra: I agree with LEGS that we are instantly out of our body. I HAVE read that if people are programmed to believe that they sleep until the trumpet blows that they do sleep for awhile. But from my own beliefs, I think we leave instantly.

selki: I think that the soul leaves when we take our last breath, but there is still some type of transitional time that it takes to get to where it's going ..**

LEGS: it sounds like a beautiful and reassuring experience, selki, and grandmother visited my sister and my real grandfather, her first husband in Calif after she passed

Skycatcher: I'm in Los Angeles, no idea how long it takes the soul to do whatever it does. Wow, Skycatcher without an opinion! Mark your calendars, this might not happen for a while!!!! LOL

LEGS : Dust, the soul has to be able to see, but not necessarily with eyes... like we use now... more an overall awareness sight

selki: LEGS all I can say is I have absolutely no doubt in my mind that more lies ahead..*s*

alremkin: FRAML: That's a pretty broad question. Basically I'm not certain that we incarnate multipul times on earth. I believe in reincarnation, but i don't have a fixed opion about whether we continually incarnate here or is there only one earth incarnation. Consequently, I believe I muct live life as if this is my ONLY incarnation here. My feling is we meld back to source, God, and continue our existence according to the will of God, so I can't actually give you an answer to this question.

Dust3796: Selki--- I have no doubt that you did see your Mom. I know thzat there is a way of presenting yourself once you are on the other side. I have done this after my return but had some kind of experience that I now only remember as like finding a live earthbound person who is open to receiving spiritual input.

LEGS: ?mesg yankl well, it was very clear in my mind that is where you two are... *S*.... who knows.... Frank believes I prophesy... but I think I just make confused statements sometimes...with truth in them

guitarist: I suppose it's up to the individual how long s/he takes to get to the destination.

Skycatcher: Gram stopped and visited me on her way "home" and her father Pop was with her, I guess came to escort her. He died when I was 24, thirty years ago now.

LEGS: glad you are here skycatcher... and cassandra... I know you will both add to the discussion

guitarist: ...but eventually they get there.

Skycatcher: Our medical science has changed the meaning of death - with life extending machines, "brain death", respirators that keep the lungs/heart going artificially. So before I can begin the soul's journey, I have to wonder when life ends.

selki: Dust3796 I began seeing before she passed, I'm sure you've heard of those who are on their deathbed and talk about those that are waiting for them ..well, I saw them, I heard them, night after night until my mom died. The one's that come to help you ..I have always been open to this.

LEGS: Sister had a new baby that grandmother hadn't seen, and when sis awoke, grandmother was standing by the baby's bed, she turned and said he's beautiful... then the other child awoke and when sis turned to her then back, grandmother was gone....

Dust3796: guitarist- My experience was in January of 1956. People didn't talk about these thing or discuss things like we are talking about right now.

Skycatcher : And I've read of transplant patients showing personality traits of the donor, obviously cellular memories at work. Ex: a health food nut suddenly craving nuggets and beer, as the donor did. So.....what is soul? what is cellular memory, what is mind? Too many unknowns.......

LEGS: the following morning, shortly after we had discovered she had passed away, the phone rang with grandfather's new wife in Calif. saying I know you will think we are crazy but Norie was here last nite... we woke and she was standing at the foot of the bed... she j ust smiled and sort of backed away

FRAML: 2nd Question: Does the soul stay in this plane of existence for any amount of time? & Why might it stay here?

YoGaLoSeR: hello all

selki: FRAML I don't know ..I think about this, I can't come to a conclusion as to why it would.

guitarist : Indeed, Dust. I was born in November of '55, shortly before your death experience.

Skycatcher: Obviously stays for "goodbyes", and I think, on occasion, returns for visitations, warnings, etc.

Dust3796 : Selki, Please continue to cherish that gift (experience) forever and pass it down through your family. After I was gone I saw everything going on at my Mother's home in Texas. My body was in the Far East.

selki: Dust3796 I will do that..

LEGS : Souls must stay around, if they don't have their destination in mind... perhaps, like grandmother to do some checking out before they leave... In our family, since that happened, we all say that California must be on the way to Heaven... of course we are kidding.

alremkin: #2: Again I don't speak from experience on this, but it seems POSSIBLE that a soul or ghost might stay here to attempt finishing what it considers important business. A possible explaination of ghosts.

Dust3796: FramL from my experience the spirits that have visited me stay in an area where they have some type of job, for lack of a better word, and hang around until they are satisfied that things are in order.

Skycatcher: I'm a great fan of John Edward, meduim. I've read his books, watched his TV show - I believe he's for real, as well as a few others I've seen. They chat with passed relatives, some who've died years ago and have returned to offer comfort. Some of the info offered is unique enough to be only from one source or person. So, based on that, and the fact that Pop came to me years after he died, souls must either hang around or have the ability to return.

FRAML: alremkin: good reply

cassandra: Ted had always said he would take care of me. His first appearance was about 5 nights after he stepped over into other plane. He is with me often. And it will be 6 years in Oct.

guitarist: The soul could stay here for a very long time, or a short time. A lot depends. A couple of years ago I released someone who had been on the earth plane several hundred years; after 11 September I found someone who had been dead maybe a few days. (I should say, the spirit found me. I was asleep at the time.)

Skycatcher: There's a joke that to get to heaven you have to go through Atlanta. That came from Delta airlines having their "hub" there, so all Delta flights went through Atlanta.

LEGS: I remember that Ben has said that spirits sometimes remain earthbound because they lust after the things of the earth and were not prepared to go to the light when they passed.

selki: Dust3796 you know, I thought that too(about the jobs) based on some dreams I had and continue to have about the deceased..they're always visiting me in my dreams.

cassandra : He came when the Towers were hit. He had no sooner left than my father appeared. The next night my Mom came. They said life in their planes was affected also.

selki: I think that is why swami stayed so long, she loved it here so much, she loved her family, her grandchildren meant the world to her, she loved this life.

guitarist: How so, cassandra?

cassandra: But he doesn't really HAVE to have a reason. He said he would always be with me - even if I did not see him and I believe that. I also saw a dear friend from the web when she passed over. She came as a beautiful light.

guitarist: Yes, LEGS, Ben has said this. Basically, he says that we go to the sum of our desires, wherever that leads us.

Skycatcher : My general concept, because I believe in reincarnation, is that souls move on, spend some time in "detox" and soul school reviewing and planning the next life, and then reincarnate. I have no idea how long this might take, and it's only the most general of concepts.

Yopo: FRAML I'm assuming your question refers to time from our point of view, rather than time from the soul's point of view, which MAY be very different things...

Dust3796: Selki- You are open as is guitarist. Spirits go to where they can express themselves in order to get messages to their loved ones. You can bet that Swami will be in touch with someone because she will know that you all are receptive. She may even be with more than one.

selki: LEGS I agree with Ben to some extent, not necessarily lust of earthly things, but love of this plane. I feel that when we live a good life, being a good person (and I know that takes alot of practice) it would be hard to leave. At the same time, if we believe in the promise of Jesus Christ and live a life of doing and being good for all not just yourself, there is something better to go on to, something higher.

LEGS : yes, some theories were advanced for the last few years about why we were losing so many good people... leaders, and strong spiritual people... my late husband and Cassandra's went the same month... but now I believe they were needed to help guide others...

phillipo: ........LEGS........*S*

cassandra: guitarist - I think the souls of so many killed and the shock they were in affected the order that is in the place that our loved ones are in now. But you can imagine how busy any soul would be - helping other new made souls to find their place and realize they were not alive any more.

FRAML: Yopo: Yes. Time as we know it doesn't seem to exist there.

selki: Dust3796 *I'm laughing here, they've come at the most unusual times, to tell me to do something, or tell someone something.

Skycatcher : I'm drifting off here.....see ya all later. Hugs...

FRAML: question 3 follows.

phillipo: Those you Love don't go away......... They walk beside you every day....... They cannot leave their Heart with you......... without becoming Part of You

LEGS : Welcome phillipo.... have missed you around these parts

ChynaFaerie: greetings to all *poofing gently into the room* .... very pleased to c u all *VBS*

selki: cassandra I thought about those souls in the 9/11 attack, it was like a mass ascension..think of how many left at one time..

phillipo: Those who Love you always stay....... close enough to show the Way......... Each time you really need them near.......... they're always close enough to hear

Dust3796: Yopo - Time on the 0ther side is nothing like it is here. I have only a concept of time here. I don't relate to time as we know it. I manage to be ON TIME for things but I don't relate to it. I sleep when I am sleepy and eat when I am hungry.

phillipo: ...LEGS......*Thank you*

LEGS: phillipo, that made a lovely rhyme...

cassandra: guitarist - alive in the sense that they HAD been alive - in a different place. And they could see their loved ones anquish. Ted and I were so close that even though he died unexpectedly, it wasn't bad like that. And I could always feel his protective love around me.

FRAML: 3rd Question: Can the religious/spiritual doctrine one believes in affect when the soul departs this plane of existence and goes to another or to its final point. e.g. Heaven for Christians & Jews.

selki: **my mom died 10 days after the attack, and less than 10 days passed and 2 more from my family died, that was 3 from my family in less than 10 days, it was a shock..

phillipo : ...its what came to me when my mum passed over........

guitarist : I'm not always that open, Dust. In the shock after 11 September, I was very open. And I dreamed probably one of the most frightening dreams I've ever dreamed in my whole life, that I was in an airplane about to hit one of the towers, and the sun was overwhelmingly in my eyes, reflected from the building, and I was FRIGHTENED, more than I've ever been. When I woke up I realized this was someone trying to communicate with me.

LEGS: ((((selki))))

Yopo : ...and maybe Space is a different thing, too. I'm thinking that the connections established in life remain open. And that maybe navigational coordinates for traveling souls aren't space/time, but somehow have more to do with meaning and emotion---if that makes sense.

selki: FRAML..Heaven for Christians and Jews only?? Now now, that would be like saying heaven has a ghetto too..I don't think it has anything to do with religious dogma I think it has to do with what kind of person you are in this life.

cassandra : selki - What a rough time you have had!!! ((((HUGS))))))

LEGS: sounds good to me Yopo

FRAML: selki: No, not 'only' for Christians & Jews, but as a concept of a final destination. I didn't want to give a laundry list of Valhalla, Elysian Fields, etc.

flump: i think that we as human beings put expectations and perceptions on the afterlife (and this life) and one of the ways we do this is through religion. I think the afterlife will not match our specific earthly perceptions. Perhaps facets of these perceptions might be involved

selki: I guess coming from both christian and jew, I prolly have that part covered, huh? LOL now all I have to do is continue to see that I continue to help my brothers and sisters here on earth..

ChynaFaerie: FRAML .... is there a heaven for "smokers"?? .... just a silly question .... i hope u don't mind a bit of "levity" *VBS*

FRAML: selki: I've got a reply for wrap up that explains my 3d question.

Dust3796: guitarist- I am feeling very strongly right now that someone on one of those planes was trying to have you voice their feelings to their loved ones. They knew they were about to die and just wanted anyone to get the message.

selki: FRAML *HUG* I know, I'm kidding with you.

guitarist : Good night, Skycatcher...feel better, dear...blessings on you!

LEGS: well said, flump

cassandra: FRAML - As I said, I have read that if a person believes sincerely that he or she will NOT awake until a trumpet sounds or some such call, then they DO sleep for quite some time. Their belief leads them to do this. It sounds reasonable to me.

flump: it would be like telling a child about disneyland ,perhaps you could even show the child films and articles but the act of reading and seeing for that child would not match the experience.

Yopo: Q3 Hmm... I've wondered about that. I think maybe Yes. I picture the world beyond this as a more malleable place than this world of dense material stuff. Maybe a place where consciousness directly molds the apparent environment. If that's so, collectively shared beliefs probably shape a world based on collective expectation, to some extent.

FRAML: selki: Whew!

LEGS : Thinking about that, cassandra... the Leoprechaun believes that way

guitarist: Problem is, Dust, I have no idea who their loved ones are. I prayed for this person, and he/she was taken up by an angel, as far as I could tell.

Yopo: cassandra *hehe* But, how would they KNOW how long they've slept? My durn alarm clock seems to go off a few minutes after I've gone to bed. Leastwise, on weekdays... *S*

guitarist: I tend to agree with you, Yopo. Sometimes, when I dream more clearly than usual, I notice the surroundings, which reflect my tendency to feel overwhelmed all the time.

selki: cassandra is that the same as the rapture,,when the trumpet sounds...

ChynaFaerie: FRAML ... well i will join many of my friends in hell i guess .... that is if smokers are not allowed a heaven ... i used to joke that the only reason i didn't want to die is that i wouldn't be able to smoke *VBS*

selki: Yopo *L*

cassandra: Yopo - I used to set my mind and wake before the alarm did and I bet you do too. I allowed for the time by saying that after they have slept for a while, they come out of it - on their own and are satisfied. But that is just what I read, I haven't experienced it yet. *LOL*

greyman : How long is it until soul reaches its final destination? Depends on the destination. That reminds me of a joke. How many Graduate Students does it take to change a light bulb?

flump: chynafaerie...there are cigarettes in heaven...nobody has a light though

guitarist: On the other hand, ChynaFaerie, you might get there a little faster than the rest of us. I don't mean to make light of a serious matter.

alremkin: #3: My understanding is that it's our actions and the vibration we hold that determines our next plane of existence. It seems reasonable that divine family would assume forms that are comfortable for us to help in the transition. All our names and religions are human attempts to describe the Divine with language. IAM the creating and sustaining force of the multiverse being all space, material, and spirit has always existed and is also outside time. I don't believe we can even concieve the Magnificence of IAM, yet we can feel the Golden Sun's presences within our hearts that is our electromagnetic spirit connection to All-That-Is.

Yopo: (Hope I don't sleep through the trumpet call. I've slept through my alarm, on occasion... *S*)

ChynaFaerie : flump ... LOLOL on no "light" in heaven!!! *LOL*

FRAML: guitarist: you're "making light" thus giving her a flame to start her Winston?

FRAML: Summary coming up.

ChynaFaerie: guitarist ... LOLOLOL .... yes, i might at that ... i must make light over a serious matter .... otherwise it would be just tooooo serious yes??? *VBS*

Dust3796: guitarist - The main thing is that you got the message and that you do pray for that soul. You allowed that person to come to you . I haven't thought of this since I had my own experience. There was a desperate urge to let someone know that you are gone, but more importantly that you are in total bliss, serenity, love and any other thing that you can think of that describes awesome

guitarist: LOL@FRAMLATOR!

cassandra: selki - I don't know about the Rapture. I only know that I believe when I die I will instantly leave my body and then I will have to wing it from there. haha. But I do know that Ted came back to me and still does. That even tonight he let me know he was here. And it seemed when the towers were hit that they were working with other souls so I think the Rapture can come when we are still alive. When we first feel the glory and ONENESS with Spirit. It is such a love that it is overwhelming, such understanding of us that we must sink to our knees and just open ourselves to the LOVE and the LIGHT that is surrounding us. That happened to me and as far as I know I am still in this earthy territory. *G*

LEGS: interesting comments alremkin.... perhaps feasible

Dust3796: Framl I believe they call it Marlboro Country

FRAML: Summary next.

selki: cassandra that's a beautiful thought..*hug*

LEGS: ((((((Cassandra)))))))

ChynaFaerie: cassandra ... i also experienced the "rapture" on this earthy plane ... as far as i could tell it was a "state of consciousness" .... & i felt like i "was" in heaven ... truly!! *VBG*

guitarist: (((cassandra)))

cassandra: Yopo - *stamping my foot* I did not SAY that I BELIEVED there would be a trumpet sound to wake me up. I said others DO believe this and if they believe it hard enough they will miss out on a lot of good time. *LOL*

LEGS: *G* Dust

Yopo: cassandra Oh. Well, good. I had quite enough of waking up to trumpets in the army...

FRAML: Summary: We don't know how long a soul will stay here, however there is evidence that what a person believes in affects whether their soul stays in this plane of existence "waiting for the trumpet to sound" or "Jesus to return" or to go to a higher plane and then come back because of unfinished business or reincarnation. Some souls go straight up to the Light after they make a final visit to loved ones. And I believe that souls from heaven can come back down and check on us by means of the caring connections that stretch from us here to them there.

ChynaFaerie: i wouldn't mind waking up to diggereedoo & harp music *VBS*

FRAML: /topic Open Discussion on "when souls go."

ChynaFaerie: FRAML ... very nice summary i must say .... thank u *VBS*

FRAML : Yopo: military folks will be awakened from their graves by a bugler.

ChynaFaerie: FRAML ... like how long does the "soul" hang around b4 leaving the vicinity of the body? *VBS*

LEGS: Framl, can you you post Ben's url.. so people can go read m ore about the caring connections???

greyman: Izzz dee plane boss! dee plane!

Yopo: FRAML I was afraid of that. I'm gonna be sure to be buried with my Discharge Certificate in my pocket... *G*

LEGS : *laughing* ChynaFaerie... that was the first question... I don't think that Framl has any better answer than the rest of us do... but Dust, for one, knows that the soul does leave the body immediately sometimes.

FRAML : A personal comment. There is evidence for this conclusion in Ben's experiences with the rescue of a tribe of Indians that he has written up on his site. And for me personally was through the rescue of a Shawnee warrior who attached himself to me as a sentinel when I was 12 and visiting a battle site. Also when I was involved in helping souls that had lain in there graves from a battleground for over 150 years get to the Light.

selki: FRAML that pretty much says it..*s*

cassandra: Oh, FRAML - what a torturer you are!!! *LOL* And that was a GREAT summary. Thank you. And thanks to all of you - selki, LEGS, ChynaFaerie for the ready acceptance of my belief and experience.

guitarist: Yopo, FRAML: Make sure it's face-up so the angels can read it, too! *weg*


selki: *hugs cassandra**love you..

FRAML: ChynaFaerie--Thank you.

selki: FRAML how did you know you were going to be helping these souls. I mean did they come to you in a dream, or how did it come to be?

ChynaFaerie: FRAML .... yes, i've heard of people going out to graveyards to "guide" the spirits who were still hanging out there to "go to the light" .... it seems "souls" can get confused about their own deaths yes??? *VBS*

cassandra: guitarist - I am not leaving YOU out. My mind will not retain but just little bits of information. But doing okay for 75 year old lady, I think.

Yopo: greyman *S* Tryin' to recall which movie it was, where the departing were lined up to board a white Concord jet... / Sorry I got here late. Regarding ChynaFaerie's question... Was there any discussion earlier about the Why of the tradition of waiting three days for burial?

Dust3796: I was an accident investigator at one point in my life and have experienced the aftermath of some pretty horific accidents. On several occassions I was aware that Angels were with the victims and remained for a period of time until the victim recovered.

LEGS: I also know that the souls begin ... shall I call it, trying their wings, before they do pass on.... especially ill people, elderly or very weary ones... both my sister and my late husband, and my father... were "travelling" for a few months before they actually breathed their last. and seemed to be more peaceful and rested for it...

FRAML: For those interested. I'm now 'wearing' Ben's site on my nic so you can click to it.

alremkin: The caring connections or love between beings is the neccessary ingredient for visitation by higher beings. Our actions and vibration determine whether higher beings will choose to interact with us. The more love we have the more likely higher beings will want to join with us. This is why we get "high" at spiritual events, the group interaction to hold love. I see this as the key to ascension.

flump: yopo i think that was Heaven can wait

selki: One time a young girl that I worked with came to me after she committed suicide. Funny she never talked to me at work, argued alot, but trusted me in her death to help her, she was apparently worried about her notary seals, and wanted me to hand them in so no one could use them. I did..

cassandra: FRAML - I meant you were torturing YOPO with the bugle. But my reply came at wrong place. Sorry.

ChynaFaerie : FRAML ... it seems to be pretty standard practice in Tibet for the monk to continue "reading" from the Tibetan Book of the Dead to the "dead" person ... because "hearing" is supposedly the last sense to leave when we die *VBS*

FRAML: selki: I got the inspiration before I went to the battlefield to make a connection to Jesus when I got there and ask for a team of angels to accompany me and to go out to where ever I looked on the battlefield to seek out souls still there. I did that all day. The 2nd day I was there I woke up and a couple of hours into the tour I realized that I hadn't been focusing on rescuing folks and got the sense "mission accomplished."

selki: LEGS you know what, I would sit up at night by my mother, and sometimes even during the day, she would doze off and I thought that she died, just by the way she looked, she must have been leaving..little at a time.

greyman: Yopo, Fantasy Island.

Yopo : alremkin I believe that too. I think love is a permanent connection between spirits. A channel that remains open. Some just tune in on it better than others, I think.

selki: FRAML THAT is very INTERESTING. Have you ever been to Gettysburg? I've been there several times and if one is sensitive one can feel the poor souls that died there..

FRAML: selki: Yes, she knew that she could trust you to complete an action. Also she let you know and then departed and didn't seek to stick around and control you.

Yopo: Hmm... Poor ol' Jacob could only invision a ladder. Ain't modern technology wonderful?

selki: FRAML Ya, she didn't stick around, she had enough to deal with from the act of suicide.

ChynaFaerie: according to the "Huna" religion of Hawaii ... everytime we "touch" something or someone we create an "etheric bond" with it/them that stretches to infinity .... that is why i sometimes prefer the buddhist way of greeting with bowed heads & prayerful hands .... i'm extremely sensitive to others' vibrations *VBS*

guitarist: (Imagining that a lot of Israelis and Arabs are in need of rescue at this time...)

Dust3796: Goodnight everyone. I must be going . Love and Light to all

LEGS: selki, as close as my late husband ever came to being angry with me, was only a few days before he passed, when I walked in and began talking to him not realizing he was dozing... he jumped ... startling himself and me... and then said that he was a long way off and didn't want to come back... then a few seconds later he laughed and said, that sounded silly didn't it... Later I realized it had been true.

Yopo: G'd night, Dust3796 *S*

FRAML : I tried doing it at the Bull Run battlefield in Virginia and got the sense of nothing to do. I told that to Ben and he said that he had been there a couple of decades ago and helped the souls there to the Light so there was nothing for me to do.

greyman: Good night dear ones.~~

cassandra: Goodnight Dust 3796 - nice to have met you.

ChynaFaerie: Farewell & blessings Dust *VBS* & hugs to u dear one

Dust3796: My pleasure Cassandra

LEGS: ((((((Dust))))))))

Yopo: Blessings, greyman...

flump: by dust

ChynaFaerie: peaceful blessings greyman .... healing dreams to u dear one *VBS*

cassandra: Goodnight greyman. In fact, goodnight all. Such a lovely seminar. Thank you all.

FRAML: Good night Dust & greyman. Don't forget to count your blessings before you sleep.

LEGS: ((((((greyman))))))

Yopo: Hi, Ben *S*

FRAML: ((((BEN)))) Good evening. Good night Cassandra.

guitarist: Dust--I'm glad to have met you too. Please come back!(((goodnight, greyman)))

Ben: Hello! I'm late. It is the taxing time of the year.

ChynaFaerie: r u leaving cassandra? .... then goodnight dear one .... many peaceful healing dreams to u *VBS*

LEGS: {*{*{*{*{*{*{*Ben*}}*}*}*}*}*}*}*}*}*}

Yopo: cassandra *S* Bright dreams to you...

flump: enjoy the evening cassandra

LEGS: *smiling at Ben* yes have been having a taxing time of it myself today... *G*

Cuan: hello

ChynaFaerie: greetings Ben ... it is that "taxing" time of year indeed *VBS*

cassandra: Yopo - watch out. I may be around with a trumpet - just as a little joke. *G*

Cuan: {{{LEGS}}} *S

selki: I thank you all for the discussion, it was great. Good night all..Have a blessed Palm Sunday

guitarist: Greetings, all who have been walking/running/flying in here for the last few minutes...

ChynaFaerie: greetings & warm welcome Cuan .... how pleasant to c u again *VBS* to u dear one

Yopo: Greetings, Cuan

flump: by selki

Yopo : cassandra Don't you dare! After the discussion tonight, I wouldn't know whether to salute or cross myself... *G*

guitarist: Good night, (((cassandra))) and (((selki)))

FRAML: To All. I shall not be here next Saturday. I have the very early morning shift for our church's Easter prayer vigil so will be at St. Sealy's at seminar time preparing for a very early rising to go to church.

flump: time for me to go...enjoy the evening everyone

selki: bye flump..good night*s*

guitarist : cassandra, you are indeed doing all right! (((blessings)))

LEGS: (((((((Cuan)))))))) how are you Friend?

FRAML: Good night (((SELKI))) Hello Cuan

guitarist: good night, flump // hello ((((BEN)))

Yopo: FRAML We'll try to keep the noise down, so as not to wake you...

ChynaFaerie: i must also *poof out* dear ones .... such an interesting discussion u have here FRAML ... i look forward to the one two weeks from now *VBS* to u all

LEGS : we shall miss you Framl..... hey, what about the interview??? any details yet??

Yopo: 'Bye, flump

Ben: Sorry I missed this discussion. The topic is important.

Cuan: {{{ChynaFaerie}}} and to you :-)

Cuan: Hello {{{Yopo}}}

guitarist: Good night, CF and flump -- nice to have met you. // Good evening, Cuan, nice to meet you.

guitarist: I thought of you as soon as FRAML announced it, Ben. I thought you would have had a lot of thoughts and experiences to share. *s*

FRAML: Good night ChynaFaerie. Thanks for your comments.

LEGS: NItey NIte to all who are leaving... you added to the good discussion tonite and are appreciated

Cuan: LEGS - *VBS - another crazy week done - good and bad balanced nicely - :-P - you?

FRAML: LEGS: Tuesday or Wednesday evening. I'm still waiting for the questions they want comments on. I did some background reading today for it.

Cuan: hello FRAML

one-of-four: enters cassandra How are you to night?

LEGS: Ben, we had the good luck to have with us tonite the man (Dust)with whom I am co-authoring his experiences.... including a death experience back during WWII

Cuan: guitarist - good to meetyou a well

LEGS: welcome one-of-four, she may have exited already... said her goodbyes

Yopo: FRAML Hope you'll remind us when you know the date and time the program is gonna air!

one-of-four: LEGS Hi. okay thanks

Ben: LEGS, I'll have to download the transcript tomorrow. I don't recall meeting Dust.

guitarist : Do we have a book title yet, LEGS? // Good evening, one-of-four and nice to meet you, Spirit_Tail.

FRAML: ALL: I forgot to mention that The Muse died on 22 December after a long illness. I don't have details about it. I saw her husband in here this past week and asked him how she was. I havent seen her in here for 2 or 3 years.

LEGS: guitarist, he has laid out about four titles, but we haven't picked one yet

one-of-four: Guess I am late for the discussion

FRAML: Yopo: If I find out I shall, and if they decide to use what I say. It will be on the History Channel whenever it happens.

guitarist: Now, The_Muse I remember, if for no other reason than she is on a lot of the earlier seminars (before my time). I regret that I never got to meet her either here or in person.

alremkin: LEGS: What's the subject of your book?

FRAML: Thank you all for participating in tonight's seminar. I must now go attend services at St. Sealy's.

Yopo: FRAML I was very surprised when I heard that. Hadn't seen her for a long while. I was thinking the other day, that we need a page here to remember those that have gone. When I think about it, there have been quite a number.

alremkin: FRAML: Good night.

Yopo: A very good night to you, FRAML! I'm gonna look back at the transcript tomorrow. Got here late on account of Drumming Circle...

guitarist: I was going to say, it looks like we're starting to lose our spiritual family here. But, if I've learned anything sitting here, it's that we really don't lose anyone we love, and who loves us.

one-of-four: think I will have to review log.

LEGS: Goodnite Framl neat seminar

FRAML: Good night all.

Ben: FRAML, Good night, amigo. Sleep well.


guitarist: (((Goodnight,FRAML)))

LEGS: oh Yopo, you need to lead a sem inar some nite on what drumming accomplishes

one-of-four: since all is said and done I will head out. bye to all

Cuan: g'night FRAML

Yopo : guitarist I wish sometime that ReviewLog stretched back to the beginning. SWC has quite a history, now, though it apparently exists only in the memories of those who come here.

guitarist: I second that, Yopo. Please, do it.

alremkin: guitarist: You've got it. Love is what endures when we strip away the things that we think matter, but don't.

LEGS: nite nite one-of-four .... we start on Saturdays for the seminar at ten Eastern time

Yopo: LEGS *S* I'm hardly qualified. It is many things to many different people. nuuk might be a good person to speak to that...

LEGS : alremkin, the bulk of the story will be what a different life he has led since having the death experience.... and how it continues to help him today

Ben : Yopo, talk to greyman about that sometime. He has archives on CDs like you wouldn't believe. I think he has Stonehenge every day and all (or almost all) of these seminars.

Yopo : Ben Wow! That's got to be a lot of files! *LOL* Stonehenge, huh? Probably would require a lot of editing, too... *LOL*

alremkin: LEGS: Ok, thank you. It sounds like an intersting read.

guitarist: Some of our disruptors who claim to monitor us all the time would be hard put to beat greyman on that point! *LOLOLOL*

Ben: Yopo, Yes, it's a lot of data. I don't know how much, exactly.

LEGS: I think the point is to have an un-edited version of the henge... Ben.... do you know if he has made it searchable??

alremkin: Time for me to go. I've enjoyed the discussion. Good night everyone, I love you.

Ben: LEGS, I think it is searchable, but I'm not sure.

alremkin: Namaste.

LEGS: Goodnite alremkin.... come see us again... (((Hugs))))

guitarist: Good night, (((alremkin.)))

Yopo: Good night to ya, alremkin! Bright dreams...

LEGS: Ben, it is so funny, I had just asked Framl to post your url when you showed up... good timing ((((Hugs)))))

Ben: Well, guess I'd better go point my toes at the ceiling for a few hours.

LEGS: Ben... pm on the way

Ben: LEGS, Maybe that's why I suddenly thought about popping in here, even though I knew it was late. :-)

guitarist: (((Ben))) I'm glad you come once in a while. Life is going by too fast. Sleep well.

Yopo: Ben *LOL* Maybe we don't really need sleep. Just need to point our toes properly, to recharge.

guitarist: Gee...maybe if I'd have asked when I thought of you, you would have come sooner?

LEGS: Hello Thur... long time no see....

Yopo: *S* Hi Thur

Ben : Yopo, Actually, I pray on my back and sleep on my stomach, so the few hours was in reference to something I'll be doing. After that, I'll roll over and go to sleep.

guitarist: Good evening, Thur. I suspect I'm on my way out, but I'm glad to see you before I go.

LEGS: ((((((guitarist)))))))) what all are you fixing for Passover....

guitarist: Ben...I see now...the scales have fallen from my eyes. You don't get much sleep, then, I take it.

LEGS: *S* Ben .... good praying and pointing to you, then... ((((Hugs)))))

guitarist: Good question, LEGS. I will find many suitable items from my cookbook collection and beyond. I can't even think about it right now, since I still have to clean house...and Yankl just put in a new garbage disposer today. The old one had completely rusted through.

Thur: Hello All (S) just doing some catch up (G)

Ben: guitarist, There's a way to let the body sleep while one is doing mental-spiritual things. Half-state. Not quite as restful as deep sleep, but nearly so.

guitarist: It was a good thing, because for the past year we thought we needed a new dishwasher. But when the disposer broke, he discovered that the hose running from the dishwasher to the disposer was completely clogged, and was sending the water back into the washer.

Yopo: Ben Oh, yes. Don't want to be pointed in the wrong direction while praying. Might get a swift kick or somethin'... *S* Poor ol' Yopo cannot sleep on his stomach anymore, without waking up with a stiff back.

LEGS: *thinking about garbage disposals.... guess that is what the Fire needs in the henge sometimes... *G* .... I have looked at some of the Passover recipes and they sound marvelous

guitarist: Ben, I'm half-relieved, then. Must still take a lot of discipline. :)

Ben: Yopo, My habit of praying on my back and sleeping on my stomach had a very simple origin. When I sleep on my back, I snore, and my wife has rather swift elbows.

Yopo : I sometimes find that half-sleep state very disturbing. Sorta got stuck there taking a nap the other day. I was trying to fight through to waking, but couldn't manage it. A strange state, like paralysis, where I was half aware of the room around me, but half caught up in a dream I wanted to get out of...

LEGS: *Laughing* nothing like an elbow for guidance

LEGS: O'siyo, Ish

Ishtahota: Legs AhHo !!

guitarist: I don't elbow my husband when he snores; I just push him over so that he sleeps on his side. He ends up on his stomach on his own, like you, Ben.

guitarist: Shalom, Ishtahota!

Ishtahota: And all Hello.

Ben: Yopo, Yes, it takes some getting used to. And there are tricks of the trade, like setting a mental alarm clock or pre-loading a return-to-normal-consciousness command.

LEGS: sorry you m issed the seminar, Ish... but you can review it tomorrow

LEGS: Ben, is that included in your seminar topics??? the mental alarm part?

guitarist: Ben, this might just be a seminar! How to pray while sleeping...doesn't the Christian scripture tell the believer to "pray without ceasing"? Gives it a new meaning.

Yopo: Ben I suspect that state would probably be useful, if I could only get over my instinctive fear of the sense of paralysis. Some part of me always panics, and insists that there's a survival issue involved.

Ishtahota: Yopo that place you try to get out of is the place I try to go to. That inbetween place is where I get alot of answers to hard questions.

Ben: LEGS, I haven't addressed it in a seminar. However, there is an example of NOT doing it on my site (Lost Track of Time).

LEGS: That's right, guitarist .... I have always been a bit at odds with the new preachers who say ask once and thank the powers that be, and don't bother them again... but the Bible says pray without ceasing... my nephew wrote a poem about prayer that will be in the next issue... good one

LEGS: I remember that one Ben... you had your friends pretty worried there....

guitarist: Yes, Ben, I sort of remember...the one where you thought it was a Sunday and it was Monday and the klaxon went off at a different time than you expected. You were lucky to have friends who knew what you were doing.

LEGS: (((((froggy))))) hello dear lady

froggy: gentle greetings *S*

Yopo : Ishtahota I've gotten into that place on occasion without the accompanying panic, and had some very interesting encounters there. I think maybe that happens when I don't get focused on the physical body input. The body input is disturbing. Awareness of the body, but a feeling that all control is absent. Sometimes it feels like I've taken a wrong turn, and the idea pops into my head that it feels like dying. Then, there's this primordial animal fear that takes over.

LEGS: Right, Ish.... a sorta precursor to learning to lucid dream, and solve problems in the dream state... I am apt to slip right on into deep dreaming, myself...

spiritcat: =^..^= namastes to all :o)

Ben: Yopo, There is a survival issue involved. One can lose track of time in the half-state. And there are other dangers, too. Best to do it in small doses, with someone there to help you out of it if necessary. I've been doing it for 50 years, so I've learned a few things (sometimes the hard way).

spiritcat : Hi Ishtahota last night i flew in my dreams.....straight up over the tops of the trees...into the clouds.....great feeling *G*

guitarist: Hi there, spiritcat. I like your drawings. I wish I could draw a guitar with characters. :)

spiritcat: hi froggy....nediip *G*

Ishtahota : Yopo You will be alright with practice. That place is where both halves of your consciousness come together. It is where shamans go to do their work. Or visionaries go to have visions. You can even leave your body from there. You do this naturally and I had to work for years to do that.//// LEGS sit up and do it.

spiritcat: ty guitarist...."=(=)

LEGS: yes, Ish, when I meditate, I have to sit up, to keep from going to sleep... *G*

spiritcat: nah that's a pretty hard one....Lani is good with the pictures too....*S*

froggy: LEGS, have been known to fall out of my chair as well.*S*

LEGS: Meditating daily is the resolution I made and have broken already this year... but I do as I can. It is so seldom that I have the peace and opportunity to practice it.

LEGS: *laughing* froggy, I have a nice rocker with arms...

Yopo: Ben You don't think the body can manage on its own?? I've been telling myself there is no real cause for concern, any more than there is when falling asleep... Confused whether you're meaning physical dangers, or spiritual dangers.

spiritcat: hahahaha froggy *sorry shouldn't laugh too much* did you wake with a fright?

Ben: Well, as I said, it's time for me to go point my toes up for awhile. Peace and blessings to each of you. :) *poof*

froggy: spiritcat, fell with a thump...I awoke for sure

guitarist : Just don't hang the mouse! It has its proper place. Ben, many multitudes of blessings to you.

LEGS: Laughing.... here is mine: ....../ that's a pencilstub making dots

Yopo: Good night to you, Ben! *S* Maybe we can continue this very interesting discussion some other time... Blessings!

Ben: Yopo: Oops! I about signed off too soon. For one type of danger, see my paper "Lost Track of Time." For another see "Jim Two." Both of those possibilities should be guarded against in advance.

Yopo: Ben Thanks! I'll look at 'em tomorrow. *S*

LEGS: thanx for coming back with that, Ben.... now, off you scoot to the toe-pointing... Love you!!!!

spiritcat: blessings go with you Ben>>>>>>>>

Ishtahota: Yopo your body will take care of itself, untill it is time for you to leave this world. The only spiritual danger is takeing your fears with you into that world. Personal clearing work needs to be done to be safe.

spiritcat: hahaha LEGS that's a good one....

Ben: ALL: Shalom. Sleep well and wake better. [smiles and bows] *gone*

spiritcat: Ishtahota i believe that as we depart we see the past and how we have fared in this earthlife....we then go 'home' so no fear.....only bliss

LEGS: Goodnite everyone... gotta sleep... (((((RoomHugs)))))))

guitarist: """===(=o|) playing softly as Ben leaves...

spiritcat: blessings go with you LEGS>>>>>>>>>

Yopo: A very good night to you, LEGS! *S*

spiritcat: Yopo was there a seminar on this morning?

froggy: blessings LEGS...*S*

spiritcat: or evening?

Ishtahota: spiritcat only if you walk into the light. We still hold onto the ego till we go into the light. And the ego is the seat of all fear.

guitarist: Love you all...I must go as well. It is really about time.

spiritcat : well then Ishtahota i may be walking in th light....and have let go of a certain amount of ego....*S*

guitarist: Yes, there was a seminar this morning, your time, Mr. Spiritcat.

spiritcat: blessings go with you guitarist>>>>>>>>>>>>

Yopo: spiritcat There was a seminar here beginning about 3 hours ago, on a different topic. Ought to be up on ReviewLog later. We got on the topic of the "trance state" afterward...

guitarist: Or is it Ms. Spiritcat?

spiritcat: what was it about?

Yopo: Good night, guitarist! Blessings... *S*

Ishtahota: spiritcat into the light after death.

spiritcat : ms spiritcat ....guitarist not that it

guitarist : >>>>>>>>>>>Blessings be on you all>>>>>>>>>& gt;>>poof>>>>>>>

spiritcat: does anyone know how long the review log stays there.....i seem to get only 500 lines....can you tell me how to correct this?

Yopo : Ishahota Do you use drumming to do "shamanic" trancing?

guitarist: It matters to me. People always take me for a guy too, and I did it to you. Shame on me!

spiritcat: that's ok i think it's great to be a guy and a girl sometimes....LOL....because i guess ...i know who i am....

guitarist : Sorry 'bout that, spiritcat >>>>>>>>>repo of>>>>>>>>>>>>

Yopo : spiritcat I'm not sure how often the accumulated review log is completely replaced. I think maybe when it reaches a certain length, or something. On occasion I've found only a few hundred lines, then other times much more, stretching over several days.

spiritcat: try not to be so hard on yourself guitarist....{hug}

Ishtahota: Yopo No. I do not do shamanistic work. I use this for other things. I have not done enough personal work to be going into those worlds yet.

spiritcat: yep Yopo that is the case here too

spiritcat: Ishtahota i try BE with the light always and in all ways....still i am fallible.....but my understanding is no fear of death is only a new beginning...*S*

Yopo: Ishtahota "Shamanic" may be the wrong term. Guess that implies not just getting somewhere, but doing work once you arrive. I've been doing drumming for several years, and sometimes attain a mildly altered state that way. Just tonight I was doing that. I seem to reach a certain limit, at this point. My mind clears of thought, and I have a sense of nearly getting free of my self, but always come up against a sort of "black veil" that I cannot seem to get through.

Ishtahota: spiritcat that where personal work comes in. We have fears that we are not aware of.

Ishtahota: Yopo that vail is your fears.

froggy: Hello Istahota...sometimes we don't see the fears, cause we don't want to face them, consciously...until they come up and bite us...*S*

spiritcat: that blackness is the unknown and the searching which to me is exciting as i love new beginnings *S*

Ishtahota: Yopo when you get passed the vail the first time, you will laugh your as off. The illusion that stops you is of your own creation.

Yopo : Ishtahota In the case of the drumming, maybe not. Leastwise, I'm not conscious of a fear issue. Unlike the sleep-trance thing. I still feel totally in control with the drumming. The barrier there feels different. I'm thinking maybe I just lack the technical skill to get through it at will.

Ishtahota: Hello froggy.

Yopo: Ishtahota That may well be so. That it is of my own creation...

Ishtahota: Yopo when you cross it you will see.

spiritcat: i think too froggy there are so many fears that we do not even know of until we are faced with them.....maybe that's the same as what you have said.....LOL

Ishtahota: I have been across it a few times.

spiritcat : i need to go......blessings be with you alll>>>>>>>>>>

Ishtahota: froggy this vail we speak of is real. The work in my book helps to remove this vail. Our minds precieve it as a barrior or a wall. We are not fully awakened untill we cross it.

Ishtahota: night spirit cat.

froggy: I want to feel strong so i didn't always acknowledge something as fear, until recently...Now it is more like things come up and it hits me, where did that reaction come from and why? Sometimes though, i am still very much full of it! *LOL*

Yopo: Gotta admit, though, I am more cautious with drumming than I was at first. Had one bad experience there, when some unfamiliar folks joined the circle one night. I'm certain they meant no harm, but came in midway through carrying the wrong mindset. We should have realized a certain danger, but had already reached a certain point before they arrived. You know... Trust established, all shields down, wide open. We went straight into another round with the new folks still carrying the energy they'd come in with, and something got loose in the circle that seemed very alarming and dangerous. Wild uncontrolled energy, bouncing off the walls. Took me a couple of days to get my balance back.

Yopo: G'd night, spiritcat *S*

froggy: goodnight spiritcat...*S*

Ishtahota: Yopo that is where the new age people get into trouble. Not being serious about their work. If someone is not in a good space or at my place without good intent we stop. If your energy is also their then you are responsible for what goes on.

Ishtahota: It is different when we do a sweat lodge. People with out good intent get run out of it.

froggy: Why would someone come to a sweat lodge and not honestly want to be focussed...?

froggy: Do most first timers come without a clear intent? Perhaps drawn to it?

Yopo: Ishtahota Agreed! I've several times excused myself from circles between rounds, realizing I was carrying something inside that wasn't a good thing to share with the group. It can be difficult with the sort of open circle we have here. There are often new people, who are just sort of trying the thing on to see if it's a good fit or not. Sometimes they find something they're looking for and become more or less permanent. Sometimes they become very disturbed, and leave suddenly. Once in a while, the circle is broken by an arrival with some dark thing inside. Things go better when the circle consists of brothers and sisters who know what they're about from long experience.

Ishtahota: froggy some come and make it a macho man thing. They want to see who can go the longest and the hottest. Some come trying to find a mate at the circles. It boils down to intent. I get all kinds up here.

Ishtahota: froggy it depends on the person. First timers spind the night before up here. And we feel each other out.

Yopo: Ishtahota Our circle is most often facilitated by one of several who are familiar with and respectful of Native American tradition, but have modified ritual so as to keep us away from things that ought not be poorly immitated. I tend to avoid those who would lay claim to things they have no right to. Alas, I'm afraid that often happens in "New Age" circles.

Ishtahota : froggy we are all people. If people were not messed up there would be no need for what I do.

Ishtahota: Yopo if you are serious and your heart is pure, things will be fine. The spirits will love and teach you.

Yopo: *S* I'm still working on the purity thing. My ego is a clever buzzard. Likes to recast its imperfections in a more flattering light, probably more to fool itself than to fool others. Ah, well. Gotta be patient... I'm a hard habit to break. *LOL*

Yopo : I'm starting to drift... Think I'd best get some sleep. A good night to you, froggy! G'd night, Ishtahota! Bright dreams, and Blessings...

Ishtahota: Yopo that is the kind of work I do with people. To help them see this stuff.

Ishtahota: Good journey Yopo.

froggy: Yopo, good dreams dear one...*S*

Yopo: Ishtahota They'll be thankful you did. After they get over the shock. *LOL* Take care! *gone*

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