Cross-Roads chat room
24 Aug 2002

candlelady123 < Hey what's going on tonight?

fawna33 < What are we awaiting instructions on???

Lovewombat < How about the nature of impromptu topics and seminars?

LEGS < Perhaps since we were discussing the weather we could discuss "Gauging our Spiritual Temperature" ...

Lovewombat < I'm partly cloudy ... fair to midland ... 20% chance of afternoon thunderstorms? *grin*

LEGS < Very good Wombie ... well done ... *S*

Lovewombat < LEGS: Well someone has to do it ...

candlelady123 < LEGS, that ought to get people going ... I went to prayer meeting tonight ... Does that count for good spirituality?

LEGS < I would think so, candlelady ... special nite for it???

FRAML < /topic Gauging our Spiritual Temperature

fawna33 < Spiritual Temperature Rising ...

FRAML < Fawna33 -- I put up the topic as a replacement for "moderated discussion has ended" which has been there all week.

FRAML < I figured that LEGS or Celia was going to either tell me what to do, or where to go. *G*

candlelady123 < I am feeling full of *heavenly Sunshine* even though it is dark outside. Prayer meeting every Saturday night 6 pm to 7 pm.

FRAML < candlelady123 -- Sounds like spiritual to me.

LEGS < I've noticed that many people regard choosing a path of spirituality as somehow not aligning oneself with a single God ... Creator, Source, the All, many different titles ... but of not having a God ... that is not spirituality, but a semi-formed notion more closely described as agnostic.

candlelady123 < LEGS, do you work the chakras on yourself?

LEGS < candlelady, I am aware of the information on chakras and have put such disciplines as tuning them, etc. in the category of "Who knows if it works or not, but what can it hurt?" Rather like the majority of people seem to be about praying.

candlelady123 < I pray to Jesus Christ himself ... I consider Him God

candlelady123 < I meditate, I accept healing prayers from all faiths and beliefs

LEGS < Bear all these lovely answers in mind, because I am going to pose the first question for your answers in about ten minutes ... *S*

candlelady123 < oh, oh! Here comes a test folks ... *VBG* may we all pass

Lovewombat < Some people don't want to lose their autonomy ...

LEGS < That is a good answer why some have failed to declare themselves as believers in any doctrine, I suppose, Wombie ...

fawna33 < I've spent my life fluctuating between very controlling religion and no religion. I'm just trying to figure out a happy medium at the present.

candlelady123 < well I am trying to learn about all my chat friends beliefs ... I agree many different beliefs of people on these chats. I respect each person for what they believe and never knock their belief ...

FRAML < I find it interesting that some folks who state that 'religion' is too controlling, also want to be free from any type of rules or even self-discipline. While others find the doctrine/dogma a straight jacket when they ask honest questions during their spiritual/religious growing, and get 'shot down' for asking questions.

LEGS < Well, if I am to volunteer as tonite's discussion leader, let me pose the first question under the topic ... Question One: When we consider gauging ourselves spiritually, how do we compare ourselves?

FRAML < LEGS: I guess I compare myself to other people, although I am less focused on how I see others. I left my present congregation because I felt I didn't measure up to how I saw some of the other folks. I later learned that they didn't see themselves as "marble saints" and were surprised that I had that opinion of them.

candlelady123 < Well number 1: no one is perfect in our walk with whatever God/goddess/father/Mother till we are taken to heaven or hell ... We are created in christs image ... but we have not perfected it so far ... I am sure as far as my spiritual walk I have failed many times ... I just keep on trying to please *my God* ...

Celia < Hi Ben!

Ben < ALL: Hello! // LEGS: When I consider gauging myself spiritually, I compare my actions (and especially, my reactions) with three open-ended, directional ideals: kinder, wiser, and more gracious.

fawna33 < I literally moved away from my congregation, but had moved away from them figuratively long before that any way.

Celia < I'm hoping Ben will respond to this question, too.

candlelady123 < Ben: nice title to your web site. *S* The title to Ben's web page is: *spirituality* Right on cue, Ben ... *VBG*

Ben < candlelady: I hadn't planned to be here tonight, but suddenly felt that I should, like RIGHT NOW! I think LEGS sent me a message. *S*

LEGS < *S* right on, Ben ((((((MaryHugs))))))

candlelady123 < welcome Ben I am glad you are here ...

LEGS < Seeing that some of you are having difficulty getting your teeth into that question, let me give you Question Two: If we choose "marble saints" or Biblical personages to compare ourselves, what temperature do you see as the Top comparison??? Is our God ... or our comparison ideal Really Cool, and we, only tepid?

FRAML < LEGS: The more I look at Bible "marble saints" I'm drawn to Peter. He wasn't marble, but very human. Darting into to places and then saying "oh Lord, help me."

Ben < LEGS: Hah! Marble saints are really cool. Of course, so are marble statues of folks who are not saints.

FRAML < In fact, if I were creating a religion, he is just the type of person I wouldn't want to have in my founding group because he wasn't a perfect example for people to follow. That is what attracts him to me.

candlelady123 < well *My god says He would rather we be hot or cold ... If we are lukewarm he will spue us out of His mouth ... so I guess at times I am lukewarm if I am not serving my God the way I should ...

LEGS < Wombie, earlier you said, when we began tossing this idea around, "I'm partly cloudy ... fair to midland ... 20% chance of afternoon thunderstorms? *grin* ... " So, what gauge did you choose? Your personality? actual temp situation in your locale? or were you answering with a deeper meaning??? We often reveal things to ourselves if not to others, with the answers we make ... (((Hugs)))))

Lovewombat < Saint Francis was kinda cool ... patron saint of animals ... I especially like the picture of him when he's having his epiphany ... can't remember the artist that did the picture ... it's a renaissance painting.

Ben < Lovewombat: I agree. St. Francis is patron saint of animals and those who really care about animals. I don't know if there were any Lovewombats in Italy in those days, but if there were, I think St. Francis would have loved them and they would have loved him.

fawna33 < Personally, I like Saint Jude ... Patron Saint of the hopeless causes. I always love a challenge.

candlelady123 < Most humans are not the perfect personage to follow. As human Peter got real scared as I am sure we all could be at anytime ... read on about Peter and Paul ...

FRAML < Candlelady123 All in the Bible were human, or chose to live here for 33 years as human to teach us.

Yopo < *S* G'd evening, ALL ...

candlelady123 < Good evening Yopo

LEGS < {{{{{{{{Yopo}}}}}}}}}} bless you ... and please help with answers ... your weak-kneed friend LEGS is trying to lead this discussion ... *G*

Celia < Yopo!!!

Yopo < Answers? *S* I haven't even figured the proper questions out yet ...

Yopo < candlelady123, Celia *S*

LEGS < Quick Review for latecomers: Question One: When we consider gauging ourselves spiritually, how do we compare ourselves? Question Two: If we choose "marble saints" or Biblical personages to compare ourselves, what temperature do you see as the Top comparison??? Is our God ... or our comparison ideal Really Cool, and we, only tepid?

LEGS < Welcome Guitarist and alremkin ... (((((Hugs))))))

Ben < ALL: I prayed about a question very much like the one LEGS is posting. Here is a link to what I received:

guitarist < Shalom kol echad! **Greetings everyone**

candlelady123 < Jesus lived on earth for 33 years ... the disciples went on to teach and minister after the ascension of Christ ...

LEGS < While the newcomers are considering those two questions, here is Question three: For gauging of spiritual temperature, how about the fervency of Native Americans, or of Aboriginal peoples, and their relationship to the Creator or to the One? ... their worship and rituals get pretty 'hot' ... does that mean we are weak in our personal devotions when we compare ourselves?

alremkin < #1 We compare ourselves with rulers bent by our own lack of truth, love, and understanding.

Yopo < LEGS: Hmm ... Guess I'm not entirely clear on this "gauging" business. What are we tryin' to measure, exactly? Moral propriety? Depth of vision? Grasp of great "Truths"? This is a tricky matter ...

LEGS < Actually Yopo, we are examining our own - as a group and individually - methods for deciding how spiritual we are ... as compared to what/whom as our gauge for comparison ... and hopefully some good answers as to what gauge we should be using ... like Wombie's St. Francis ... etc.

FRAML < Yopo: Spiritual temperature: You know. Hot, Cold, scared so bad you are totally constipated.

Yopo < Ah, got it. Hmm ...

LEGS < FRAML, *s* er, coagulated?

candlelady123 < I guess I could say I could be scared I won't make it to heaven ... But won't know till judgment day ...

alremkin < #3 What I like about the native american spiritual view is their matter of factness. They seem to accept spiritual values without all the pomposity of western religion. Which is not to say they are more Holy, but they seem to understand that religion is everyday life much more than formal christianity

candlelady123 < Alremkin, please clarify who are the native americans ... those born in america? or other people?

alremkin < 123: The american indians

Ben < My ideal spiritual temperature isn't icy cold or lifeless cool or boiling hot. Lukewarm means not warm enough (though I don't know why they named it after Luke). Friendly warmth and heart-warming are in the range I look for.

candlelady123 < So-called Christians can be friendly warm or heart warming and be totally lost.

Ben < candlelady: I agree, but lost is a different question. The two great commandments Jesus taught are: love God supremely, and love your neighbor as yourself. Love is warm-hearted and heart-warming.

candlelady123 < yes Ben we are supposed to love everyone ... I agree there with you.

FRAML < LEGS: I'll stick with Peter. In him I see where I am at different times, wanting to fully believe, but faltering; while other times filled with inspiration and able to speak beyond my normal ability.

candlelady123 < Amennnnnnnnn FRAML ... very good answer

Yopo < *thinking* Seems like it is a matter of degrees of awareness, more than of degrees of what you ARE? A matter of how clear your windows are, or something. You may have no awareness of a spiritual vision. Don't even suspect a window is there. Or you may see a few dim and shadowy images. Or you may have a very clear view, and have light streaming in, lighting everything up brightly ...

FRAML < Yopo: That makes sense to me. & it also sounds like a pattern that might be seen in looking back over a lifetime of one's spiritual journey.

Yopo < Then, there's the matter of how what you see changes you. Gotta walk the walk. If you connect with spirit, you're gonna be different somehow than you were before. You're gonna be acting on a new and expanded information set ...

candlelady123 < Yopo, what do you mean by windows?

Yopo < candlelady123: I think of spirituality as being a shift of perception. Or at least that is a big component of it. Expanded vision, consciousness, whatever. Not just new IDEAS. Spiritual vision changes the nature of world you're in. The world is experienced differently than before ...

candlelady123 < I agree with your last 2 statements ... At this point in my life I am trying to learn who I am ... exactly what I believe ... I understand people believe many different ways ... there is something in me that is crying out since I first started chatting with all of you sweet people,,,

LEGS < Some good answers here ... some I, myself, will take more time to think about, but watching the time (sorta) and hoping that all will try to join in at some point, here is the Fourth and final Question: (it seems so many people see being spiritual as apart from believing in a God ... one God ... or any recognized doctrines' leader ... ) Do you see things/activities called 'spiritual' as NOT being From God, (from the Source/Creator/All/One) and regard being spiritual as something apart, or totally different from that divine energy?

guitarist < Q3 Somehow I think the whole issue of cold-warm-hot is different than evil-neutral-good.

LEGS < Actual question without my surmising is: #4 ... Do you see things/activities called 'spiritual' as NOT being From God, (from the Source/Creator/All/One) and regard it (being spiritual) as something apart, or totally different from that divine energy?

guitarist < All: I stopped by to say hello, and I need to leave now. My grown son is here for the night because he just got kicked out of his living situation. I need to be with my family now, and request whatever prayer you feel up to. I'm sorry to interrupt, but thankful that you are all here thinking about spiritual and G-dly things. Good night ...

candlelady123 < night and hugs Guitarist

Ben < guitarist: Prayers for you and your family. Good night.

LEGS < ((((((Guitarist)))))) offering prayers for the right answer to the immediate and long term resolution ... with peace and understanding ... (((((Hugs))))))))

FRAML < Peace be with you Guitarist.

Yopo < Blessings, guitarist ...

alremkin < guitarist: Good night and God be with you. Namaste.

guitarist < Goodnight all ... poof ...

FRAML < LEGS: I think that some see 'spirituality' as separate from believing in the Judeo-Christian tradition. Those folks find a "spiritual" energy from the gods they follow, some of whom they refer to as "creator," which may or may not be the same as the Most High God whom I see as the father of Jesus.

alremkin < #4. All spirituality is from God. To deny spirituality with our actions is to be apart from God, All-That-Is and is what it is. Still one must remember that God can not be accurately named with human words and it is God that determines spirituality. We with our limited understanding can only attempt to connect with God and Divine family, but as we do connect through faith we begin to know. Seek and ye shall find ... It's difficult for a human to see truth.

candlelady123 < Amen Alremkin

LEGS < Gooooood answer, alremkin ... and I know many such as you mention, FRAML ... but they too, are good people whom I love ... doing their best to serve their concept of what God is and how they can best render such service.

FRAML < LEGS: I did not say they were bad, I just merely stated that some see Christianity as "religion" and separate from "spirituality".

Yopo < FRAML Some even see religion in general as separate from spirituality. Or largely separate, but with areas of overlap ...

Ben < LEGS: In response to Question 4 -- I see many things and activities that are properly called spiritual as not being from God or inspired by God or in obedience to God. There are many kinds of spirituality.

LEGS < So, Ben, we get down to it at last, what should our yardstick to gauge our spiritual temperature be???

candlelady123 < In many different religions there are many different yardsticks, rules, regulations, etc., to go by. The bible lays out the yardstick we are to follow to meet His requirements

alremkin < Exodus 3 13 Moses said to God, "Suppose I go to the Israelites and say to them, 'The God of your fathers has sent me to you,' and they ask me, 'What is his name?' Then what shall I tell them?" 14 God said to Moses, "I am who I am . [1] This is what you are to say to the Israelites: 'IAM has sent me to you.' "

candlelady123 < In the bible God has many names.

kezia < OK, I will add this little bit: if God is omnipresent, then there is nothing that is not somehow spiritual, i.e., everything is alive, inspirited, but not everything lasts, so that's where it gets tricky; I firmly stand on "all that is real, i.e., good, will last forever; all the rest is false, a lies, & will vanish, not last.

candlelady123 < welcome Kezia (((HUGSSSSSSSSS)))

LEGS < (((((((kezia)))))) welcome dearheart, and others I haven't welcomed trying to format my questions for tonite, and keep up with the answers ... *G* last time I'm volunteering!!! *G*

alremkin < kezia: All that is and is what it is = God. At this level with struggle with that which is, but is not what it is illusion; which in fact doesn't exist, implying to be separate from God is non-existent.

candlelady123 < When God is omnipresent it simply means he is both with all of you and also me ... he is also in heaven at the same time.

Ben < LEGS: "What should our yardstick to gauge our spiritual temperature be?" As I said earlier, I think the thermometer reads in degrees of warmth of one's spiritual heart -- from ice cold to explosively hot -- with the ideal in the range of life-giving and life-sustaining.

candlelady123 < I really don't think anyone can be hot or explodingly hot 24 hours a day. We can really work at it ... remember, we are humans, and humans do fail at times ...

Ben < candlelady: Yes, we humans do fail at times, but I think it isn't a good idea to try to be spiritually hot. It leads to burn-out.

kezia < Ben, you hear some people say "I am on fire for God" (something in me recoils to that); I think our heart's grow warmer or colder, we grow closer to, or father from, God; if we can honestly read 1 Corinthians 13 & say, wow, I hope I even can come anywhere close to that, we are on the right track. :) To me, it is the greatest definition of love I have ever read, & I have read a lot!

Ben < kezia: I also recoil from most of those who say they are on fire for God -- especially when their eyes start to quiver sideways.

LadyV < Ben, now that is interesting ... and very revealing ... you are right of course ... and it does happen.

LEGS < Our Question period is over, but all are encouraged to continue to discuss and post their own answers ... OPEN DISCUSSION NOW ... Thanks to all who have helped tonite ... (((((((MaryHugs))))))))))

kezia < LEGS :) I commend you! Thank you

candlelady123 < thanks Legs for doing it for us ... (((HUGSSSSSSSS)))

FRAML < LEGS: You did very well tonight. I'm glad I put you in the "hot seat."

Ben < LEGS: Good seminar tonight. Thank you. And I do hope you will lead again.

FRAML < Yopo: Yes, there are those who do see the overlap. Of course there are those Christians who don't accept the idea of Christian mysticism/spirituality. (An example of Christian mysticism is in The Seven ___ Mountain by a deceased Catholic monk, drat lost his name)

candlelady123 < FRAML: seven ? what Mountain?

Yopo < FRAML Thomas Merton?

FRAML < Yopo: Bingo --Thomas Merton "7 storied mountain" I think

candlelady123 < what is the "7 storied Mountain?

FRAML < After teaching English for a while and working in a Harlem settlement house, Merton decided (1941) to become a monk, choosing the Trappist order for its discipline of silence and solitude. Within the monastery he served for years as master of students and novices. Outside it, his writing, which included poetry, meditations, and works of social criticism, brought him prominence in American letters. His autobiography, The Seven Storey Mountain (1948), became a bestseller.

candlelady123 < Ah, Ha! Thanks, FRAML, I really think that the western religions really know how to love their god even though they worship Buddha ... When I speak of western religions I mean the monks, etc ...

LEGS < I like that yardstick, Ben. With it, I can say that I'm spiritual in the right way ... and still, I think that we need a way to see when those who are 'borrowing' the title of spirituality for their games they play with people, are insincere and recognize the 'con' in their activities ... Rather like some people are boasting of their patriotism now to increase their business ... same goal for some of the so-called spiritual activities ...

kezia < LEGS, excellent point! & one we must be very aware of at all times

alremkin < Ben: The yardstick I use is whether I feel greater contact with Divine beings or not. There's an ebb and flow in life as our state of being raises and lowers; to me, it's the feel of Divine presence. If there is more divine presence I'm on an up swing, when there's less in some way, I'm turning from Divine love, God, and need to focus on what is important.

candlelady123 < amen Alremkin

Ben < alremkin: Yes, from your description, I agree that greater contact with Divine beings is an indicator of spiritual tuning. And the quality of one's contact with human beings and animals is an indicator of spiritual alignment.

alremkin < 1 Corinthians 13: If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. 2 If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. 3 If I give all I possess to the poor and surrender my body to the flames, but have not love, I gain nothing. 4 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5 It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres. 8 Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10 but when perfection comes, the imperfect disappears. 11 When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put childish ways behind me. 12 Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known. 13 And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.

FRAML < alremkin: I need to check my other computer, but I remember doing a seminar on that particular set of scripture. I think it is in my "to be edited" set of electronic files.

alremkin < FRAML: Yes, I think it was about 6 months ago. There's a group of seminars between the Cross Roads discussion here and the old spiritweb.

FRAML < alremkin: I found it. Dawnwolf led the seminar on Sat, 13-Apr-2002, entitled "Does love fail?" It was centered on 1 Corinthians 13.

LadyV < Hi candlelady I am sorry I missed your greeting.

candlelady123 < hi again LadyV nice to see you.

Bjays_Little_Angel < Hello

LadyV < Hi Bjays Angel.

Bjays_Little_Angel < LEGS and everyone would you like to hear my newest poem?

LEGS < I have asked BjaysLittleAngel to post her poem in an empty room and tell us where it is so we can go read it ... it would simply disappear here very quickly ...

LEGS < Bjays_Little_Angel has posted her poem in the Spiritual Inn ... and hopes we all like it ...

Bjays_Little_Angel < Thank you (((((LEGS))))))

FRAML < candlelady123 -- Am I to understand you that you are saying Christian monks worship Buddha?

Yopo < *S* I don't think even Buddhists worship Buddha ...

candlelady123 < I know monks worship Buddha. I don't know if they are christians ... they go to a monk monastery.

FRAML < candlelady123: Ok, now I understand your post.

alremkin < Awareness is closely linked with sensitivity. As with the phrase, "Thy will be done", how can one know God's will without being sensitive. Generally we convenience ourselves of all sorts of unnecessary things which hold us back. When all we need to do is be open and loving in this negative world. Human nature hasn't changed in recorded history.

FRAML < ALL: It is time for me to depart for the night. I've enjoyed the seminar, it's nice to be a participant instead of the leader. Thanks ((((LEGS))))

Yopo < A good night to you, FRAML *S* Bright dreams. (Be sure to check your parachute ... *S*)

alremkin < Good night FRAML

LEGS < ((((((FRAML))))))) thanks for being here ...


alremkin < LEGS: Thank you for leading the seminar.

candlelady123 < I must leave also ... good night and ((((HUGSSSS))) to all

alremkin < Good night 123

kezia < I met & invited a Swami to speak before a gathering of people once; he was 83 yrs old, born & raised in Tibet, lived in the high Himalayas for 40 yrs in complete solitude; he told me he came down the mountain, inspired by God, to go all over the globe & speak about what he was shown, which he said is what Jesus Christ told us, as well; he said unconditional love is the greatest power there is & this world is like a hospital & needs all the love it can get, even in our heart, focused in our intention, prayer ("the fervent & effectual prayer of a righteous man availeth much"); I found him to be unusual in his devotion, & wanted to share that.

LEGS < Thank you for that information about the swami, Kezia ... I also find it inspiring. I have noticed the difference in oldsters I know,,, between the ones who have faith in their beliefs, and those who have never taken time to determine any belief at all ... the latter are the fearful ones ... and under more agitation in their minds, it seems ...

Ben < kezia: Thank you for your post about the swami.

candlelady123 < OK legs I went to read poem ... night sweetie

LEGS < {{{{{{{{{{{Candlelady}}}}}}}}}}}} my best to you and yours ... thanx for participating tonite ... ((((hugs)))))

Yopo < Good night, candlelady123

LEGS < I'm so happy to see you here, Yopo ... very good to hear your astute thoughts on just about any subject ... I know you take care in your answers, and still are able to inject a wry aspect to many of them ... ((((((((Yopo)))))))))))))

Yopo < LEGS I was not up to speed tonight. Just got in from drumming circle. Not in analytical mode. Very interesting questions that you posed, though!

Ben < ALL: Good seminar tonight. I'm glad I was here. Peace and blessings to each of you.

Yopo < A very good night to you, Ben *S* Blessings ...

LadyV < Night Ben rest well.

alremkin < Good night Ben. Namaste.

Ben < ALL: Namaste [smiles and bows] *poof*

LEGS < {{{{{{{Ben}}}}}}}} sweet dreams my friend

alremkin < LEGS: I was surprised there was a seminar tonight. I just stopped by after leaving the other room and saw it was under way, it took me a while to focus.

LEGS < alremkin, FRAML shanghaied me ... *G*

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