kemokae< Ben: I have a question for you. If indeed the bible says
there are a "chosen" 144,000 people ... I take it "Jewish"
... does that mean any of the rest of the world have a "chance"
at heaven, or do we just kind of "hang it up" for not qualifying?
dhroovananda< kemokae: The prophet Elijah was told that there were 10,000
faithful left in Israel.
Ben< kemokae: The 144,000 is from John's vision, called "Revelation"
though it is the least revealing book in the Bible. That whole book is allegory,
written in talk-around-code to get it past the Roman censors, so I take
none of it literally.
kemokae< Ben: What's the word about the Gospels of St. Thomas? Ever hear
of them?
Ben< kemokae: Yes, I have the Gospels of Thomas. The Infancy Gospel of
Thomas is entirely fiction. The Saying Gospel of Thomas echoes some of the
sayings of Jesus in the Synoptic Gospels, and adds some that may or may
not be original.
kemokae< Ben: Well, I found a whole web site in reference to the 114
sayings of Jesus in this text, and not one saying does it say, but everyone
is talking about them. There are nearly 4,000 messages on "what"
he said, and it's beyond me!!!!
solon< Isn't the Gospel of St. Thomas a Coptic and Gnostic writing?
Ben< kemokae: The 114 sayings are the Sayings Gospel of Thomas. As a
collection, it has been dated to about 140-180 AD. // solon: It may be Coptic,
since early fragments were found in Egypt. Some of the additional sayings
sound rather Gnostic. The 114th saying is especially unlike anything else
attributed to Jesus.
solon< Thank you, Ben. That time period in Egypt would certainly make
it Coptic.
integrator< A very Gnostic Gospel, kemokae.
kemokae< Ben: What was the 114th saying?
Ben< kemokae: Jesus respected women, as almost no other man did in his
day. However, the Gospel of Thomas says: 114 Simon Peter said to them, "Mary
should leave us, for females are not worthy of life." Jesus said, "Look,
I shall guide her to make her male, so that she too may become a living
spirit resembling you males. For every female who makes herself male will
enter heaven's kingdom." This isn't typical of Jesus, from everything
else we read of him.
solon< Ben: I think the ancient Jews as a culture respected women in
some sense. Debra was a Judge. I agree that saying seems not like Jesus
who respected Mary Magdalene.
kemokae< Ben: You mean he was the first instigator of Women's rights
... in being like a man? Simon Peter probably said that because in those
days the only thing a woman was for was reproducing and taking care of the
house as a servant ... by that culture. Women now are more like men, in
that this so-called "helpless, brainless thing" now can take care
of herself as well as any man if given the opportunity. You know this "creates"
more "respect" of women when it's done with equality.
Ben< kemokae: I don't believe that Peter or Jesus ever said those things.
I believe that a Gnostic writer used their names to push his own doctrine.
When I first read Saying 114, I thought: "So much for the Gospel of
Thomas."
SheWhoFlies< Ben: The Bible and a lot of the teachings of Jesus degrade
women -- and people like you believe it!! Where is the divinity in separateness??!!??
tuliptoot< Ohhhhhh, no, SheWhoFlies ... I would have to say there has
been some mistake on intent with Ben's post ... um ... Ben has high respect/honor
for women. (((huggg)))
LadyV< Women that are Jewish are so very feminine. I admire them very
much.
solon< Kemokae: 1200 years before Jesus, Hetshepsut was Pharaoh of Egypt,
arguably the most important figure of the ancient world, I am not saying
what you say isn't true, just that it is a bit oversimplified.
SheWhoFlies< Solon: You are obviously a man. The ancient Jews DID NOT
respect women -- just look at the Kabbalah!!
dhroovananda< SheWhoFlies: You misconstrue the Bible.
SheWhoFlies< dhroovananda: I do not, I only challenge it, and that is
my right.
Ben< solon: Yes, I agree, the Jews have always respected women within
the Law. Jesus also respected women outside the Law. Only he would have
said to the most religious people of his day, "Prostitutes are entering
the Kingdom of God ahead of you."
dhroovananda< Ben: That is nowhere written.
Ben< dhroovananda: Yes, it is written. Did you think I made it up?
kemokae< Ben: One thing is for sure ... about the only thing you can
count on is the specific little red words ... I think! ... *wink*
dhroovananda< Ben: I am not sure. You are not quoting correctly anyway.
Try to find the passage, please.
kemokae< Ben: My experience with "JC" is that he "gives"
whatever you have the thought of. It is very hard for me to explain this
but he denies no one anything. So if that was what Thomas was thinking,
he may of said it. The "beauty" of the relationship between Jesus
and Mary Magdalene was that he gave her something for "free" without
expectation of a fee ... he gave pure "love" not sex. He gave
her the ability to earn her way without being "used" ... as a
woman.
samadhi< I am very bored here now. Any more sincere questions about Self
Knowledge?
SheWhoFlies< Interesting that you cannot even debate that which you offer,
Solon, Ben and Kemokae ... disappointed ... *grins and shrugs*
mini-me< SheWhoFlies: And do women respect men? I was talking about this
with LadyV. There is a line from the kabbalah/zohar: "The soul ascends
when the passion of the feminine falls for the masculine" ... thought
it was quite beautiful. Seems pretty respectful to me. But perhaps there
are other quotes not as nice ... but I wouldn't know cause LadyV is holding
out with the book. *G*
samadhi< Good bye and good luck
dhroovananda< samadhi: Why don't you retire into your "eternal"
Self?
samadhi< dhroovananda: I have, how about you?
dhroovananda< samadhi: I found "my" Self yet I found nothing
that was not there before or after.
solon< SheWhoFlies: Please give one example of a teaching of Jesus that
degrades women, and please do not quote Paul. The ancient Hebrews were the
only culture who expected all their people, men and women, to be literate.
As I said earlier, they were once led by a woman. If they assigned a different
function to women, that is not necessarily degradation, especially when
judged by the culture and times.
SheWhoFlies< I am not enjoying this conversation any more. It seems to
me that there are a lot of people here trying to force their beliefs upon
others, and not respecting points of view ... Time for me to go - Love to
you all!!!
LadyV< What does sex have to do with it? Does it matter that Jesus Christ
perhaps ... just perhaps ... had a private life? I have pondered this ...
and sometimes I think if the great Lord ... and He is that ... was born
of woman and worked as man ... did he not feel as man? Look at all the rascals
he forgives for fooling around. He surely must understand them ... gee ...
I don't know ... the more I live the more I wonder if Jesus Christ was man
and Holy ... but then that is only my thoughts ... do not know.
RosePetal< I thought Jesus married Mary Magdalene ...
kemokae< RosePetal: The French claim their "kingship" from
their so-called "union".
RosePetal< kemokae: Yes ... and the fleur~de~lis being a symbol of circumcision
... Le Mer ...
tuliptoot< *cringes* at the obvious slur ... geesh ...
dhroovananda< Many xians are wolves in sheep's clothing. Jesus Christ,
save me from some of your followers!
Ben< dhroovananda: I don't usually quote scripture in here, but since
you asked: Matt. 21:28 "What do you think? A man had two sons; and
he went to the first and said, `Son, go and work in the vineyard today.'
29 And he answered, `I will not'; but afterward he repented and went. 30
And he went to the second and said the same; and he answered, `I go, sir,'
but did not go. 31 Which of the two did the will of his father?" They
said, "The first." Jesus said to them, "Truly, I say to you,
the tax collectors and the harlots go into the kingdom of God before you.
32 For John came to you in the way of righteousness, and you did not believe
him, but the tax collectors and the harlots believed him; and even when
you saw it, you did not afterward repent and believe him.
dhroovananda< Thank you, Ben, that's the way I like it!
kemokae< Ben: John was the first "re-cycler" of his day ...
even if it was man's soul. The Gods played good and evil upon man, but the
Father played only "ever lasting life" for the good. The Father
was the first to display only "love" toward his subjects also
... as a child/father relationship goes. The Father works with good vs evil
... and overcomes the evil.
[Ben< This much is stated about Mary of Magdala in the Gospels. Seven
demons were cast out of her. She was one of the women who supported Jesus's
ministry in Galilee and contributed financially to it. She went with Jesus
and his disciples to Jerusalem, was present at his crucifixion, went to
the tomb to anoint his corpse, reported to his disciples that the tomb was
empty, told them the message of the angels, and then went back to the tomb.
She was the first person to whom Jesus appeared after his resurrection.
Everything else that is said about her and her relationship to Jesus is
speculation (and slander) that first appeared about 140 AD -- when there
were no living witnesses to say it was false.]