Ben< Okay, let's begin. First, the one ground-rule for these seminars: Please testify to what you believe instead of attacking what someone else believes. And second, I have one protocol request: Please type the nickname of the person you are addressing each time you post anything, in order to help me sort out the transcript later.

Ben< Because this is a new topic tonight, my three set-up paragraphs will be basically background information, and my three questions will be fairly broad and general.

Ben< The Greek word *apokalypse* means "a revelation" in which something is disclosed that was previously concealed, hidden, secret, or mysterious. Thus, an apokalypse is an event in which something (suddenly) can be seen or learned or understood. By definition, those who experience an apokalypse are surprised. Nevertheless, this does not keep us from speculating about what may (or may not) be revealed.

Ben< Webster's definition of apocalypse refers to various ancient Jewish and Christian writings that depict the ultimate destruction of evil and the triumph of good. (Zoroastrian writings also depict such a struggle, but are not called apocalypse.)

Ben< Today, apocalypse usually refers to "the end" -- but the end of what? Let's explore some of the various meanings of that thought.

Ben< ALL: Please describe what you think is meant by "the end of the world" and note where you got that description or whether it's your own thinking. YOUR TURN

Lor< Where did I ever get the idea that the apocalypse involved some sort of calamity?

Ben< Lor: There are many predictions that the end-time will be a time of calamity. The Book of Revelation contains such predictions, for example.

windy< I think it means the end of the world "as we know it." While I wouldn't say this conclusion I've come to is entirely my own thinking, I can't ascribe it to any particular dogma or philosophy or prophet.

Ben< windy: Yes, "the end of the world as we know it" is a common theme in end-time predictions.

Jade< I also believe it is the end of the world as we know it, and a transformation into a more spiritual, loving reality.

MonaHawke< I think many consider the "end of the world" as a world war or nuclear calamity that would wipe out the human race and most other species that we know. My ideas about the concept of "the end of the world" have changed a lot in the last couple of years, and now I don't think in terms like that.

Azriel< I think of it as more as a "transformation" than an end or physical destruction.

FRAML< I have two views: a nuclear war (now less imminent) and a cataclysmic world event of some type brought on by God or Satan. But I have never really been into worrying about it.

Ben< FRAML: Yes, nuclear war, nuclear winter, global warming, population explosion and massive starvation... other scenarios?

FRAML< Ben: Right. I forgot all the environmental catastrophes that are being predicted, based upon computer models. The same ones that can't get next week's weather right. *grin*

windy< FRAML: *Very Big Grin* re: your computer models comment.

Lor< FRAML: I'm sorry to appear so dismal, but if the US bombs Iraq, and Iraq in turn looses some deadly pestilence upon neighbors friendly to us, some of them could retaliate with nuclear strikes. Other Arab nations could react similarly in defense of their Moslem neighbor, and a major war of cataclysmic proportions might easily ensue!

FRAML< Lor: The chemical should dissipate fairly rapidly.

Lor< FRAML: It would be better if it wouldn't dissipate fairly rapidly if it were a contagious biological disease.

FRAML< Lor: I was addressing only chemical weapons, not biological.

Azriel< Earthquakes, volcanic eruptions...

Ben< Azriel: Or a comet such as the one that wiped out the dinosaurs.

Lor< I've heard somewhere that astronomers predict that our solar system is destined to collide with another many thousands of years from now. I suppose that could mean the end of the earth.

windy< Ben: I find the Greek definition as a "revelation" quite interesting, both in and of itself, and also that it is what we call John's Apocalyptic Book of Revelation.

Ben< windy: Yes, I thought the Greek definition was interesting, too. Of course, John's "Revelation" is the *least* revealing book in the Bible. *smile*

SLIDER< I've read Revelation a few times and come to my own conclusion from former readings that it is a recurrence of happenings that the human species must come to terms with. The preceding books of the bible or any other writings that explain similar things tell us as a species how to prepare spiritually and to know how to react spiritually when the time comes.

goya< Well, in thinking of apocalypse, I suppose I have the cultural codes of the age in my head: violent upheaval, catastrophe, Divinely inspired lesson to all human life. At its best it is a revelation of being -- through being forced to see the error of one's way, fate taking revenge on 'ennui-ridden' mankind. Unfortunately such views smack overly of the Judeo-Christian framework -- you know, wrathful God, all that stuff, teaching the corrupted sinners a lesson. I think apocalypse is tragedy -- animistic tragedy -- nature turns against humanity on the spiritual level, and sooner or later 'the apocalypse'.

Star_Light< I was also taught that the world would end in a horrible way. I was taught it by my Grandmother, who kept me in touch with God. It was very depressing for me, and sent me searching for truth, which I now know now is a little bit different than what I had grown to believe. I now think that it is the end of some things, but the beginning of other things.

greyman< Two possible examples, given basic requirements of life. Either mass extinction of mankind due to some adverse biological catastrophe, or our sun goes out, collapsing our atmosphere to about a foot above the planet's surface (no biological function below 77 degrees Kelvin).

Ben< greyman: I forgot to mention that another ice age could cause a lot of changes, no matter how it is produced (pole shift or whatever).

the_Muse< I think the end of the world comes at the time of the compression prior to a big bang. Unless we foolishly destroy the life-sustaining ability of our planet. I think what most people call the "end of the world" is really just an end of this age of man.

SCOREPIO< I would say "the end of the world" means the end of believing and the start of knowing.

Ben< SCOREPIO: Well said. That well could be. It is part of many old prophecies.

SLIDER< Ben: I don't like quoting the bible, but I would like your opinion on the meaning of Revelation 1:14 "His head and his hair were like white wool, as white as snow, and his eyes were as a flame of fire." This is how John described the angel in his spirit dream.

Ben< SLIDER: John didn't have the vocabulary to describe a being made of light and radiating light -- he was still using tallow candles and olive oil lamps.

Shaman13< The end comes when the beast turns to fight the army from the east after he takes over the middle east. Christ says if he didn't come back that day all mankind would die.

Ben< In my opinion, "the end of the world" can mean the destruction of this planet. Or the extinction of life on this planet. Or the extinction of the human species. All of which are relatively certain to happen sometime, given enough millions or billions of years. But why would all those old prophets be concerned about that?

the_Muse< I do not feel that there is much danger of us destroying the earth. God says in Isaiah, "I did not create the Earth in vain, I created her to be inhabited." But, I think, when we get to the point where we threaten the Earth, we break universal laws. Maybe that is one scenario -- we lose ownership and are invaded.

Azriel< the_Muse: But do we really 'own' the Earth?

the_Muse< Azriel: As a being told me once, "A planet belongs to the inhabitants thereof until those inhabitants threaten the health of the planet." I do not know if this is true, but it felt right to me. *smile*

windy< Lately, I have been working on the "fire next time" meaning "this time" theme. There are plenty of references to fire in the Bible, both as referring to God and God's means of justice.

FRAML< ALL: I have gotten so confused by the book of Revelation that I ignore it as future and see it as a coded piece directed to the early Christians to keep hope alive, and that Rome would eventually cease to be dominant.

the_Muse< FRAML: But Rome is the seat of the Catholic church, the church that set the course of all of Christianity. And to whom the kings paid tribute and gave allegiance above their countries to whom they were supposed to be married. When the people realize that the Vatican has no right to all the stolen and destroyed treasures that are in the vaults of the holy see, the bishops will run into the vaults and set the books that remain on fire. All will cry at the burning of that great city.

FRAML< the_Muse: Revelation was written before the Catholic Church was created; thus, Rome is that of the Caesars.

the_Muse< FRAML: Rome is the seat of the Vatican. And the point of prophecy is to be able to predict things like seats of power before said seat exists. John did good with that one. and his 666 prediction giving a population that would be reached almost exactly 5 years before the Mayan prediction was also impressive.

FRAML< the_Muse: Well, we differ on interpretations of whom Revelation was written for. I propose we agree to disagree on this one.

5foot2< the_Muse: I just read an article that said the original language that revelations was written in included numbers as characters. The number 666 also spelled Nero Caesar.

the_Muse< 5foot2: LCDXVI = 666. But in the Roman number system, LC (600) means too many to count. Thus 666 would be too many sixes to count.

5foot2< the_Muse: Too true. I do not know if it was intended as a number or a character. I just thought it interesting.

[Ben< "This calls for wisdom: let him who has understanding reckon the number of the beast, for it is a human number: it's number is DCLXVI." (Rev 13:18) The number of the beast (DCLXVI = 666) lists in proper order the letters used in the Roman Numeral system. If you were a Christian in the first century during a time of persecution by the Roman Empire, and received this from a friend in a Roman prison, would you have a problem knowing what he meant by "the beast"?]

windy< The Fatima "miracle" involving the Blessed Lady (Mary, Jesus' mother) involved the sun, and the sun's appearing to propel itself toward the earth. A man named Ed Dames (a remote viewer) says his group of remote viewers has "viewed" an event in which a great solar flare envelops the earth resulting in the destruction of virtually everything on the surface.

LEGS< As a child, the stories of the ark always promised that we wouldn't be destroyed by water again. And then later a Sunday school teacher carefully explained that meant we would be destroyed by fire. How the fire comes or starts was not discussed, but I just realized I'm not sure I ever had a more authoritative person say any different, but also not the same... hmmm

windy< I think the "destruction" of earth by water was/is limited to the physical and material aspects of earth and its inhabitants. The "destruction by fire" presents us with the ability or option to go beyond the physical. Thus it may be a terrifying destructive force to some, while to others it may be a liberating, transformational event.

Ben< windy: There are several predictions of "the harvest at the end of the age" which sound like a sorting-out process.

Azriel< Ben: Or as in accountability -- we reap what we sow.

windy< Ben: I think that to be able to "transcend the fire" one must be spiritually inclined.

Ben< ALL: Now shift gears a little, and describe what you think is meant by "the end of the age" (eon) -- as something different from "the end of the world". YOUR TURN

Star_Light< I think it may mean the end of human kind as we know it today. That we are going to evolve spiritually and know things that at present we may not be able to conceive of.

Carnage< First will come a war for the planet, and then the war for our souls.

the_Muse< I think the end of the Age will be the end of the age of ignorance. The time when God will take from men their hearts of stone and replace them with hearts of flesh. When we will see ourselves as we really are.

MonaHawke< According to Blavatsky, there is an opportunity at the close of every age (and/or century) for mankind to make great strides toward enlightenment or progression along that path. Right now I think there is much 'millennium fever' going on, with all the predictions, etc., and there could be emphasis placed on positive changes instead, in my humble opinion.

SLIDER< My thoughts on the end of an age are that Man will bring some type of destruction to the planet and cause technology to fail and turn the earth into a stone age again, or a physical benign force from the solar system may cause this, or a higher intelligence from without may cause this to happen -- ET's.

Channeler< A channeling from the book "The Second Book of the Lamb" by Peter Stone: "The Revelation to John deals not with fiery serpents, dragons, and massive physical catastrophes. No, it deals primarily with physical response to emotional and mental anguish of unprecedented levels. It tells of a time -- the very time coming upon you now -- when the theological belief system will be totally demolished by understanding of the true nature of the reality in which you exist." It speaks of man at war with himself as he struggles to perceive the truth in a bitter sea of conflicting testimony, information, opinion, and half-truths. It refers to the anguish of separation from the status quo of earth's believed physical reality. It describes the laity as they espouse new things previously unheard of, and the clergy as they follow suit. It describes Catholics, Jews, Christians, Buddhists -- any and all people of earth -- as they wrestle with profound change in their system of belief and their very understanding of reality.

FRAML< Channeler: Is that quotation representative of what you believe?

Channeler< FRAML: Yes, I agree with the channeled quotation. Furthermore, I fully expect the Book of Revelation to one day be revealed as a container of some of the very things that will bring its prophecies to pass. Sort of like a time bomb rigged by an advanced culture and wrapped up in words that say "One day there shall be a great explosion."

Lor< Channeler: It could also refer to the anguish of separation from the status quo of earth's believed spiritual reality, and this could cause more serious confusion (as well as revelation), don't you think?

goya< 'The end of the age' is a more Eastern concept: cyclic time. We have linear time in which nothing returns afresh, hence apocalypses for us (I'm speaking of the Western tradition) are forever. The end of the age is the end of a kind of cycle, and assumes there was a childhood/golden age, then silver, bronze, iron. Ennui, alienation, estrangement, etc., in the spirit, and social chaos. It leaves mankind with no will ... that's a problem ... divinely inspired is sometimes inevitable. Not a concept I'm comfortable with.

[Ben< goya: The Greek poet Hesiod (700's BC) wrote of four ages -- a golden age, followed by decay through ages called silver, bronze, and iron, followed by mass destruction and the start of another golden age. It is also in Daniel, Chapter 2.]

Ben< I think the end of one age and the beginning of another age could mean a major shift in technology (like the stone age, bronze age, iron age, industrial age), or a major change in ideology (like antiquity, the dark ages, the renaissance), or the collapse of this massively cooperative technological civilization -- which would necessarily result in a precipitous reduction of the human population.

Esop< I think the end of an age could mean that consciousness reaches a critical mass, which raises the vibration rate of all beings into higher dimensional awareness, enlightenment.

Ben< Esop: Yes, a massive shift in consciousness and awareness could produce the end of an age. Some have predicted such a shift for the near future.

Star_Light< Ben: This is the theory that has set my heart free.

Azriel< Ben: My thinking, but unfortunately I feel it would require a cataclysmic event to transform thinking on such a scale.

goya< In reading this, I suppose we're all reasonably in agreement that ours is one of those periods when time seems to have sped up... change, time, modernity, juggernaut, etc. Whatever apocalypse, end of age, etc., mean, they are critical ideas for this age, and perhaps for this moment on the eve of the allied bombing of Iraq ... where we are going, what we believe in, etc.. What I'm saying is that 'apocalypse' has a great deal to do with the way in which we 'experience time' as culture, world consciousness.

greyman< End of an age: Mankind's next step or next sigma jump. In astrology, a period of time (thousands of years).

windy< Perhaps the idea of an "age" is tied to the concept of a "generation" as it is used in the Bible.

Ben< windy: Most of the references to "end of the world" in the NT are actually "end of the age" -- the Greek word is *eon* which meant a lot longer period of time than a generation and probably referred to an astrological eon.

windy< Ben: I am of the opinion that "generation" in the Bible is used as a group of souls that transverse a span of time together, whether this is an eon or an age. By astrological age/eon do you mean 2,000 years or the 24-25,000 year cycle? or another perhaps?

[Ben< windy: The Hebrew and Greek words translated "generation" usually refer to one stage of natural descent (parent, child, grandchild are three generations), or to all of the people living at any one time ("this generation").]

[Ben< An astrological eon is 2,138.61 years, which is the amount of time it takes for the precession of the equinoxes to move through one sign of the Zodiac (30 degrees at 71.29 years per degree). Apparently, this system of reckoning time was begun about 3,200 years ago, when the sun was somewhere near the middle of Aries at the spring equinox. Now it has moved through half of Aries and almost all of Pisces, and is nearing the edge of Aquarius; hence, "the age of Aquarius."]

SLIDER< Ben: Would you look at an apocalypse as a warning or teaching to realize that spirit is where our energies should be learned, and not worry about the existence of earth and the human species as most are taught? This is my own opinion, and I look toward the spirit. *smile*

Kali-nok< Apocalypse is the end of all things, not just a transition period. If you wish to discuss what happens after that -- a new existence, the afterlife, etc. -- it's another whole discussion.

[Ben< SLIDER: In its original meaning of "a revelation" apokalypse does refer to a surprising discovery, and it can refer to a discovery such as you have described.]

JamesRD< Nostradamus has predicted that in the year 1999 and 7 months the greater alliances of the East will seek to destroy the greater of the West. In that month the land of the lady with the torch would be attacked, followed by twenty and seven years of world war. The greater of the East and the greater of the West will then put down all warfare and there will be 1000 years of peace. The Eastern alliance would begin with the Persian empire realigning it's cultures and turmoil would begin from there. Iraq, Iran, etc., were all parts of the Persian Empire. I believe this prediction can be seen occurring as we speak.

windy< JamesRD: A woman who did some work with some people who channeled Nostradamus (heard her on the Art Bell show one night, but can't recall her name) said that Nostradamus, like many prophets, said he was giving a "worst case" scenario in hopes that mankind would take measures to change what he foresaw as happening, given the way that things were going in his time.

greyman< JamesRD: Check out Quatrain 72.

Ben< greyman: In Cheetham's translation, Nostradamus, Century 10, Quatrain 72, reads: "In the year 1999 and seven months, from the sky will come a great king of terror. He will bring back to life the great king of the Mongols. Before and after war reigns happily."

greyman< Ben: Hummm, China?!?

[Ben< greyman: I don't know. The date is clear, but the rest isn't. "Mongols" is actually "Angolmois" which the translator says is an anagram of the Old French word "Mongolois" -- but if so, it's a poor anagram, because it leaves out the "A" and adds an "o".]

goya< When we think of the changes in consciousness that have occurred over the past twenty years in the West, we have to say we have premonitions of some kind of massive psycho-genetic, hopefully spiritual mutation. A new human being which must share a world consciousness. The question is, how much of the old do we (or can be) preserved? How do we reach a new stability? Change is the post-Enlightenment Western mania. In stable times things shouldn't be changing this fast.

SLIDER< I think man in his infinite wisdom may bring on those very prophesies by thinking of them constantly and not giving enough thought to an alternative probability.

FRAML< SLIDER: Good point.

windy< SLIDER: I agree wholeheartedly. Perhaps this was why the Bible did not care much for fortune-tellers ... too many people become stuck in somebody else's idea of their future, or they believe that futures are not fluid. One of the happy progressions of our time is the fact that many prophets admit that they only see "possible" realities.

SLIDER< windy: The reason most prophets won't commit to a set reading is that they don't know, and they know most of the public knows that. A good lesson in discernment. *smile*

Ben< ALL: Do you think major changes are immanent (by the year 2000)? If so, what? YOUR TURN

Kali-nok< Yes, changes are immanent, but only because everyone is getting worked up about 2000, so they will cause things to happen.

greyman< I think people get nervous when too many digits in a year change at one time.

MonaHawke< I believe that all of the predictions made regarding this time (2000) can be transmuted by light-workers and spiritual beings altering reality with vibratory manipulation. This would certainly be a big change and could help bring about mankind's ascension to the 'next dimension' that so many predict.

the_Muse< Revelation 20:14 "Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death." Revelation 2:11 "He who has an ear to hear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches; he who overcomes (has no fear?) will not be hurt at all by the second death."

Azriel< Teilhard de Chardin wrote, "Humanity is being taken to the point where it will have to choose between suicide or adoration."

FRAML< If we are measuring the Millennium from the birth of Jesus of Nazareth, the real 2000th year after his birth was 1993 (based on his birth in 7 BC).

Ben< FRAML: Aw, shucks! The end of the world already happened, and nobody noticed? *grin*

Kali-nok< FRAML: I didn't see your discussion with the_Muse, but every generation can argue that their time is the one talked of in Revelation.

[Ben< Kali-nok: True, and many generations have done just that.]

Esop< Ben: So why were all these old prophets concerned about this time, since it was bound to happen sooner or later? (referring back to your earlier question)

Ben< Esop: Yes, why were ancient prophets concerned about something that far in the future? They were writing to people of their own day. I think this question is worth exploring further.

the_Muse< Prophecy is a fractal pattern of form that repeats cyclically as it spirals through time.

Esop< Ben: Maybe the old prophets felt that through warning those in the future of their visions, that the future could be changed.

FRAML< Esop: If one reads Isaiah or Elijah, you are right on target. They were speaking for Yahweh, telling how he wanted his people to give up their errant ways which would otherwise lead to their destruction by following other gods.

Lor< Esop: I believe we each can change our futures and that our vision is critical as to what those futures will be.

windy< Lor: I agree. Vision, attitude, and heart all play a role in the kind of future we (as individuals) will find ourselves in.

goya< The real changes, by the way, are in the field of genetics. There, for the first time, human consciousness can now merge with various forms of animal consciousness. Do we understand the enormity of these pre-2000 changes? Despite the ethics committees, some nut somewhere will be mixing test-tubes, as the saying goes ... humans and bats, humans and mice, humans and geese ... who knows? And hence intelligence, consciousness, may enter the beings of quieter world consciousness? Fantastic stuff, but these changes are once in a billion years kind of stuff, and they're happening in quick-fire succession? Any comments?

Ben< Goya: Yes, genetic fun-and-games is another scenario for the end of life as we know it. I forgot that one.

windy< Goya: I agree that gene technologies are some of the scariest things going today. I believe that evil is on a set course, and is reasonably predictable. What isn't so predictable is mankind's reaction to the evil course of events.

the_Muse< Revelation 7:3 "Do not harm the land or the sea or the trees until we put a seal on the foreheads of the servants of God." Revelation 10:7 "There will be no more delay, but in the days when the seventh angel is about to sound his trumpet, the mystery of God will be accomplished just as he announced to his servants the prophets." The seventh trumpet sounds right after the resurrection of the two witnesses, so it is during their time that the mystery is accomplished. And then what happens? Revelation 11:18b "The time has come for judging the dead and rewarding your servants the prophets and your saints" ... et all... and for destroying those who destroy the Earth. Emphasis on destroying those who are destroying, and the Roman Empire wasn't up to that.

Ben< the_Muse: I have a one-page summary of John's Revelation on my site. It is the result of a systematic content-context analysis of the messages conveyed. You might find it interesting.

the_Muse< Ben: Thank you, love, I will check it out! *smile*

JamesRD< I believe as one in spirit all things can change. Look what technology has allowed us to do at this moment. The word can be spread about the world at the speed of light. Has there ever been a time when you could speak to someone on the other side of this planet just as you would if they sat right in front of you? Change does and will always occur. We can make a difference. Look at all the souls that have awakened in just the last couple of years.

Ben< JamesRD: Yes, the explosion of communications technology makes this time look like no other time since the invention of moveable type kicked off the renaissance. Perhaps we can learn fast enough to avoid the nastier predictions. I find that hopeful.

the_Muse< Ben, JamesRD: So let us pray. We do have choices! I really think that prophecy is vague to give us those choices. The stars falling from heaven at one time would have been a nuclear war, and maybe now it is a UFO invasion?

MonaHawke< Ben: When you say 'perhaps we can learn fast enough to avoid some of the nastier predictions' are you saying you believe big disastrous changes are afoot in the near future? And if you do believe this, which ones and why do you believe them? As you said, why would ancient peoples be interested in what might happen thousands of years in the future?

Ben< MonaHawke: Well, I remember the dire predictions that the earth would be standing-room-only by the year 1970. But many people heard those predictions, started limiting family size, and made those predictions more and more self-defeating (which is one of the purposes of prediction). Maybe we can do that with some other areas, too.

MonaHawke< Ben: Last time I looked, the world population was still in a 'go man go' mode. So only some folks limited family size, but not enough to make a major difference in the big picture. And as for being able to make changes, I haven't heard one person mention wanting to bomb Iraq, yet the governments seem hell bent to do it, and that action has a great potential to bring about some very unhappy changes, but those in command don't seem to be willing to learn from prediction.

Esop< MonaHawke: Right on.

Shaman13< End time prophecies did not start until the Jews went home in 48. They started then.

Kali-nok< Shaman13: What do you mean by 48?

Shaman13< Kali-nok: 1948 -- there was no Israel for 2000 years prior.

the_Muse< The difference between this millennium and the last is that, while the Christians are calling it the end, the aborigines have seen the signs they awaited. The Lakota, the Hopi, the aborigines in deep Brazil, the Mayan calendar, ALL of these things are occurring. Not just rapture-mad types. And also the number of man will reach the number 6,666,666,666 at a time very close to the prediction of the Mayan calendar so long ago. It is not just Christians these days whose prophecies are coming about.

FRAML< the_Muse: Yes, good point about other cultures/religions views of "end times". I guess that is why I concentrate on being personally spiritually ready for whenever it happens, and from whatever source. And don't worry about figuring out the "When."

the_Muse< FRAML: I want to have some idea of What and When. I think when the time the population reaches 6,600,000,000 I will want to stock up on food and necessities, get out of debt, and get an overstock on trade items. I feel this will get me through the major shake-up safely.

SLIDER< the_Muse: I had a conversation with a friend one day about being prepared for the time you talk about, and he said he wants to buy food and fuel and all the things he would need to be ready, and put them in a place far into the forest where no one else could find them. Then I asked him where he would be when this disaster happened, as to make the project worthwhile. Well, he couldn't answer, so I told him he would have to move there in order to be ready at any time! Thus he would be creating the life style before the fact, and in being prepared would create a different reality than he was accustomed to! *smile*

Ben< SLIDER: Someone was talking about getting a gasoline generator to ride out the "tribulation" and I asked him where he would get more when the gasoline he had stored ran out, since all the service-station pumps are run by electricity. He looked at me sideways and walked away.

SLIDER< Ben: I've had this conversation with quite a few people, and get mostly the same response. So I live in the now and a little in the future. LOL

the_Muse< SLIDER: I do not think it will be that big a deal. I plan to stay at home. *smile* I think it will be a total money thing. So I am thinking to survive it I need to be prepared to do without money, for at least a year.

Kali-nok< the_Muse: If it's the end of the world, why do you need to get out of debt?

the_Muse< Kali-nok: I do not believe it will be the end of the world.

Kali-nok< the_Muse: But that's what apocalypse means.

SLIDER< the_Muse: I plan, too, and am already prepared in spirit. The rest is immaterial. My plan is also to help any that are confused, if it should go bad in a big way, in body or spirit.

FRAML< BEN/ALL: Doesn't the original meaning of the word "prophet" mean: "a person who speaks for God or a god, or as though under divine guidance," rather than "one who predicts future events"?

the_Muse< FRAML: That is the way I understand it. The correct predictions of what God would do if the people made various choices showed that God had given the prophet the right to speak God's mind. *smile*

Ben< FRAML: Yes, prophet means spokesman. Some prophets were inspired to make predictions. But who needs predictions of something 2000+ years in the future? And why?

Azriel< Dire warnings are a way of teaching and controlling: "If you don't look before you cross the street ..."

Shaman13< Ben: Marking Christ's return. *S* That's why they were concerned.

Ben< Shaman13: Yes, that's why Christians were concerned, but they thought the "second coming" would be in their lifetimes even though Jesus had said only God knows when the end will come.

Shaman13< Ben: Prophecy says that after the Jews return home in the end times, there will be a 7 year treaty with the Arabs broken 1/2 way through. At the end of this 7 year period Christ will return.

greyman< Shaman13: *grin* Yes, he is coming, but he may not be happy.

Azriel< Ben: But how to distinguish a prediction based on previous knowledge from a prophecy dealing with 'new' information?

Ben< Azriel: Prediction merely means "spoken in advance" so it can be based on logic or inspiration or intuition or just a guess. However, even prophecy can't use totally new information, because no one would understand it, and even partially new information makes understanding difficult.

grunblau< As with predictions and seeing the future -- you can see the future but there are too many variables from this point in time to that point in time. There is a lot of water to go under the bridge before that point. There are a lot of wild cards and just natural events from here to there.

Ben< /topic Discussion of apocalypse(s)

goya< To Christians via insights from the_Muse: Why do so many Christians feel a certain pleasure in speaking of the 'apocalypse'? It always makes me feel uncertain. I'd prefer to get out of the J/C mind-set. In case we haven't noticed, many hundreds of millions of people are operating on different calendars than ours. I think our apocalypse mentality needs to be broken. Quoting all these Bible disasters is a self-fulfilling problem. Perhaps a glance at one's personal history might be in order? Is glee in the public day of doom scenario a manifestation of the death instinct? Too many do it ... and the hundredth sad, depressed, hurt monkey tips the balance toward the event.

FRAML< goya: Yes, a key point about Who's end time.

MonaHawke< goya: Very good points... hundredth monkey and all... interesting how xians think theirs is the only true reality in a world full of varied beliefs.

the_Muse< goya: I agree, there seems to be this joy at the impending disasters. I think it is this rapture thing. They see themselves lifting above the sinful masses, pew by pious pew. And getting to spit down on the sufferers below, saying, "I told you so." And for that matter, is that any different from the new age "ascension" thing? "Well, we made a mess of this planet, but we are now so elevated we leave it to you to deal with."

Ben< the_Muse: I wonder how many of the folks eagerly awaiting the rapture know that "rapture" comes from the same stem as "raptor" and "rape".

the_Muse< Ben: I think it is a false hope that, when it does not occur, will destroy the faith of many -- new age ascensioners and Christians alike.

Kali-nok< Ben: So what does the root word mean? I think it means "to tear away", in which case it makes sense, and the fact they share a root has nothing to do with what the words are now.

Ben< Kali-nok: The basic word means "to grab up" in all three cases: rapture, raptor, and rape. Of course, the first connotes a more pleasant experience than the other two.

Lor< the_Muse: Somehow, I feel that those that would feel joy at saying "I told you so" have missed the message, that part of the original Christian teaching that put emphasis on caring, being kind, reaching out to help others, etc.

the_Muse< Lor: I agree with you there, big-time. The Bible says "Woe unto those who say, 'Let the day of the Lord come that we may see it!' For it will be a day of darkness and destruction." To feel glee at the sufferings of others is not loving. And Jesus said, pray that God will send workers into the field. So why would anyone based in Love want to leave when we can do the most good?

5foot2< "For it will be a day of darkness and destruction." So, do we humans bring the darkness and destruction on ourselves by our actions, with "God" arriving to save us, or is it a punishment doled out by an angry "God"?

the_Muse< 5foot2: The desire for a chance to take glee at the pain of others brings a day of darkness. So maybe we can avert it by doing what you have inferred. Not welcoming it but doing all we can to delay it. Take care of our planet and fellow man.

Ben< 5foot2: "Do we bring it on ourselves, or does an angry god do it?" Good question! The answer, of course, depends on one's theology.

Lor< 5foot2: I view the God that Jesus called Father more from the perspective of the father of the prodigal son -- i.e., as being forgiving, kind, forbearing, caring, non-vengeful, who has anguish with our wayward ways, like any parent has with children that have not yet learned to tame their actions and thoughts.

Ben< Lor: Good point. I think the parable of the Prodigal Son doesn't get enough attention, by a long shot! It sets forth an exquisite theology.

Azriel< Ben: I work with many 'prodigal sons' -- juvenile felony offenders, some of the very worst as defined by their crimes -- and their response to what I have to offer them isn't always measurable, but I do know they take with them the respect and love I give them.

[Ben< Azriel: Good for you! And I know it isn't easy. Namaste.]

the_Muse< Ben: Did you see my point about the recurring pattern of prophecy? Prophecy reoccurs until the lessons it regards are learned.

Kali-nok< the_Muse: So what would you prefer, pre-destination?

the_Muse< I believe strongly in prophecy. I do not believe it means that the future is predetermined, but rather to give warnings and show choices. I have many interpretations of the ways the various prophecies could be fulfilled that graduate in terms of severity.

Tracey< the_Muse: Yes, I agree.

Ben< the_Muse: Yes, some predictions may be repeated until the lesson they are supposed to teach is learned. Like a parent talking to a kid: "If you keep sticking your finger in that electrical outlet, you'll keep on getting shocks."

windy< Ben: re: "like a parent talking to a kid" ... I used to be very frustrated with cartoons. The toons always getting clobbered and coming back again and again, all the "impossible" scenarios (Coyote and Roadrunner comes to mind), but on a soul level ... well, they are quite believable after all.

SLIDER< Ben: Maybe these prophets thought that in the future reincarnation would be recognized, and realized the power of thought so as to warn future mankind of the direction or probable direction of events.

[Ben< SLIDER: Suppose the source of the prophecies knew that people are likely to reincarnate again and again until they get stuck, or until the end of the human race, whichever comes first. That would be a reason to give them end-time warnings.]

FRAML< Ben: I see "future prophecy" in the ancient Bible words as reminders for those who follow a Judeo-Christian tradition of what can befall us if we do not follow what God and Jesus taught about the way to get to the Light. Other beliefs can probably see similar ideas in their Holy Books.

MonaHawke< FRAML: I don't think 'the end' is going to happen anytime in the foreseeable future, and I wonder about why people have occupied themselves with the idea so much instead of creating a world of great joy instead.

FRAML< MonaHawke: That is just the point my minister made to a "born-again" lady who asked him if he knew "the signs of the end of the age." He replied "I'm a Christian, so I'm ready to go. My mission is spreading the word of the four gospels to help others be ready, rather than studying about the end-time, which Jesus said was not ours to know." She was totally shocked.

the_Muse< So, today some Aryan supremacist madman was arrested with a culture of anthrax that he was going to use in a subway, a la the Japanese group. To create that joyful world, what do we do with such people as him?

Lor< the_Muse: Perhaps we should care enough to teach him a better way, like Jesus tried to do. We really know very little of his motivations, so we should become better informed before we rush in with "solutions."

***< If our time is to be brought upon us now, then it is not GOD but MAN who has brought upon the destruction. The eclipse on 2-26 will tell us who will come forthright and who will have to stay behind. I believe the anthrax and the big leader of our country are tied in some way. I'm not sure, but a middle eastern man and an American are going to bring downfall if there is to be any. We still have a chance and time to correct things.

FRAML< the_Muse: The FBI backed off the subway story yesterday. Tonight it was revealed that it was anthrax vaccine in the vial, not anthrax germs. Anthrax vaccine is legal to possess.

the_Muse< FRAML: His supplier ripped him off?

MonaHawke< I believe it was an anthrax antidote. In an interview the madman said he was trying to work on antidotes to protect people. So I suppose we could get a head start on joy by not believing what we hear on the news for starters. One is still innocent until proven guilty... ?

windy< In my opinion, prophecies are possible because evil is on a set course, and though mankind is perhaps free to choose the way he/she deals with his/her life, mankind has not been particularly "free" to live his/her life the way s/he truly desired. The less free will, the easier it is to predict the future. But in modern times, with the influx of a multitude of souls, and a freer environment, or at least the illusion of one (pardon my cynicism), there has been a greater possibility of alternate futures, more possible outcomes, more options, whatever.

the_Muse< windy: I think we have always had options, and that we have separate realities that have resulted from the separate choices we have made.

Kali-nok< Windy: If evil is on a set course, why isn't anything else?

greyman< Kali-nok: Some oppose evil.

the_Muse< greyman: *smile*

Kali-nok< greyman: My true question is, if one "thing" has predestiny controlling it, how is it possible that everything else has free will?

windy< Kali-nok: Because evil is pretty single-minded. It is control-oriented. In my opinion, whatever is evil is very young, not old at all, given the constraints of time. Most of spirit (who have learned/evolved/matured/whatever any road) are just out experiencing, expressing, learning, evolving ... not after a "set" goal. To me the Godhead is at the tip of the wave, always on the verge of becoming. When we can predict the future with too much accuracy, well, to me that means trouble with a capital T.

the_Muse< windy: That is an interesting point!

Kali-nok< windy: Evil is not young! It's been around as long as good (beginning of time). One cannot exist without the other.

windy< Kali-nok: The concept of evil, perhaps ... but I guess we disagree. It has been my experience with evil that the entities which are most evil are the very young, often entities that do not belong in our world at all, brought here through mankind's foolish experimentations and such.

Kali-nok< windy: The most powerful evil entities are most often the oldest. Beware underestimating those you meet simply because they are young.

windy< Kali-nok: I am talking of soul-age. And again, I doubt that we will change each other's minds on this. I know that most perceive of evil as old, but I have come to a different conclusion in my experiences with it.

windy< I don't expect you to believe this, but one very powerful entity which was acting as a connecting agent of evil amongst human beings wanted more than anything to be like Christ ... powerful, connecting, loved by all. It didn't belong in this world, and it only was imitating what it perceived of what it found here when it arrived. In its single-mindedness, it achieved a great deal of power ... but due to its way of achieving power, was, needless to say, unloved. It's kind of like a child watching television: it is attracted to the action (often violence); then imitates it as a form of communication because it is unable to understand the words and complex meanings behind the slower action and words. Oh, well, it's a long story, and I doubt that you would be all that interested, but spirit is not stupid. No one goes through the cycles over and over without learning something. It's just part of evil's story ... that it is as powerful as ... whatever ... God? Anyway, this is where I've come to in my beliefs.

[Ben< Kali-nok and windy: In your conversation, I'm hearing two different senses of the word "old" -- one meaning "ancient" and the other meaning "mature". If we see spiritual growth as a process of becoming less harmful and more helpful, then, yes, some spirits are both old (ancient) and young (immature), because they have not progressed toward that kind of spiritual maturity. Some of the gods could be described as ancient, powerful, childish beings who have not really grown up.]

LEGS< Ben: No way to exhaust the ideas this one subject brings up. Hope you will continue it at least one more week.

edward< Just getting in and wasn't prepared for a subject like this, but here is my 2 bits: When trying to understand or comprehend what is said about apocalypse and the end times, the first thought should be, what was on God's mind when this was introduced, what is the purpose, or is it a man-fabricated prophecy, or greatly misunderstood altogether? The origin should be sought out first, then try to figure out the end part. *smile*

Ben< edward: Good point. I agree. In trying to ascertain the purpose of any predictive prophecy, we should look at the time and place and intended audience. Most of them, I believe, were intended to produce a then-present-time response in those who heard or read them.

5foot2< Ben: Agreed. I speculate that perhaps prophecies of doom and punishment are often used to place fear in the hearts of followers. After all, who wants to take the chance that these punishments could be true? Therefore they remain true.

edward< It's also too easy to be a doom-sayer these days. The positives are rarely looked at and the negatives are aired daily by the mass media. There is an undercurrent of life being missed by so many, but the "evil" sucks it up through doomsday prophecies.

grunblau< edward !!! Right on !!! Man, that is an excellent point.

MonaHawke< edward: Good points. Also, perhaps people wish to be the ones who were here for the big show, or saw it coming or whatever, so as to give their own existence some more special meaning or validation?

edward< MonaHawke: That is very true, considering I've been in that frame of mind before. It would give very special meaning to those who have no purpose or religion. It's a way of life for some, as said here many times tonight.

windy< edward: Evil hopes to prevent souls from hoping, reaching for the light. It paints pictures of fear, destruction, a hopeless and useless mankind. And indeed, things are pretty crazy due to a lot of things, many of which are technological, coupled with poor diet and lots of electro-magnetic activity, but I am placing my gold on mankind. I think many of us will make it through the "fire".

edward< windy: That's a good place for everybody's gold.

Ben< windy: In soul-rescue work, I and others have seen truly evil spirits change, from malevolent to benevolent, light up like the angels they once were, and go Home to the Light. It is heartening to see it happen.

windy< Ben: Such a happy experience to have ... to see evil transform itself (with love and encouragement) into the light and sail home. The entity of which I spoke became a sun and truly began its experience in "this world".

MonaHawke< Ben: When you say 'see' the transmutation of the nasty-grams, do you mean true visuals? Like the entity was in full view to you and/or others?

FRAML< MonaHawke: Yes, some perceived the "nasty ones".

Ben< MonaHawke: Yes, via clairvoyant vision -- my own, and others I know who also do this kind of work. One example in which a lot of evil spirits individually lit up like a pan-full of popcorn popping is described in "Spiritual Rescue of a Tribe of Indians" on my site. (The evil spirits were not the Indians.)

the_Muse< Ben: And the example also shows that the people have the power in their hands, as individuals. *smile*

[Ben< the_Muse: Sometimes, yes, individual humans do use their own power, but that particular case required a lot of teamwork and higher-than-human help.]

FRAML< MonaHawke and the_Muse: Can either of you give us the "end time" predictions of other beliefs?

the_Muse< FRAML: The Lakota watched for the white buffalo. They say that when she was born we have a set time to begin to cherish mankind and mother earth and brother animals. They say if we do this we will live and be well, but if we continue in greed and unconcern, the White Buffalo Woman will come in anger to destroy the destroyers. The Hopi predict that we will come to a time where we threaten the planet, where we fall into greed. They predicted that after certain signs that they believe have occurred, there will be a time for us to make the changes that mean we choose life. The Mayans believe that there is a cycle and each time it reaches its end, the total results of mankind's actions fall on their heads. Always, the signs have been seen, and also the choices remain.

FRAML< the_Muse: What is the Mayan time-frame; i.e., do they ever run out of 400 year cycles?

the_Muse< FRAML: This is the 2600 year cycle.

MonaHawke< FRAML: In Druidism, many believe we ascend one at a time over many lifetimes into a god-self and even beyond. No mention of apocalypse at all.

Ben< MonaHawke: I was aware that Druids teach no apocalypse as we now use that word. Do they speak of ages, or changes between ages?

MonaHawke< Ben: There is mention of changes where the light work and vibration work are and will be needed, but pretty nonspecific, from what I've read so far. I haven't studied enough of the old myths to know what type of prophecy is there, but in Alban Arthuan celebrations, there is the myth of the return of Arthur when he is needed due to 'some great need' for his leadership and help... kind of like the 'second coming' I suppose.

grunblau< There are also some prophesies from Merlin as to the end times, but they are very old and the translation is a bit vague as to what the heck they mean. There is no present connection to the archetypes used.

Ben< grunblau: Yes, I had heard there were predictions that Arthur will return and Merlin will awaken in a time of great need.

windy< grunblau: I would be interested in that Merlin prophecy, if you can convey it.

FRAML< Ben and windy: Merlin did return at the time of our greatest need. The Merlin engine was developed in England in 1938, and it went on to power the Hurricane, Spitfire, and Mustang fighters that defeated the Luftwaffe in the skies over Europe.

windy< FRAML: Merlin, the engineer. Makes perfect sense to me. *smile*

LEGS< ((((FRAML)))) we can always count on you!!!! *smiling*

Ben< FRAML: LOL!

the_Muse< This is how prophecy goes (Deuteronomy 30:11): Now, what I am commanding you today is not too difficult for you or beyond your reach. It is not up in heaven so that you have to ask, "Who will ascend into heaven to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?" Nor is it beyond the sea so that you have to ask, "Who will cross the sea to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?" No, the word is very near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart so you may obey it. (Love God and Love your neighbor as yourself, and be fair and honest in all your dealings.) See I set before you today life and prosperity, and death and destruction. For I command you today to love. See the previous covenant from the Messiah. The lord your God says to walk in his ways and to keep his commands, decrees and laws: then you will live and increase and the Lord your God will bless you in the land you are entering. This day I call heaven and earth as witnesses against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life so that you and your children may live.

Ben< the_Muse: Good example of prophecy. It points out the alternatives and where they lead, and then leaves the choice to the individual (and, hopefully, to the tribe).

SLIDER< the_Muse: Good post!

LEGS< Ben: Someone suggested today, in one of the rooms where they started discussing end-times, that the emphasis being placed on war and end times and all is not just the fact that we are approaching the 2000 mark, but is a form of mind power of fear being sent out/released by the Iraqis... and that by worrying we are assisting the feeding of the deadly thought forms they have built.

Ben< LEGS: I doubt it is coming from the Iraqis. Folks have seen the end-times in their own times for at least 2000 years. I hope to get into some of that next session.

edward< Just another thought for the mix -- the apocalypse or "end times" (end of the world, as sometimes said) is an opposite of creation, just like Revelation can be place as an opposite of Genesis, just as evil is the opposite of good. But does there have to be an opposite? Regardless of the balance theories, etc., why couldn't there be an accompaniment instead of an opposite? And not really speaking of an apocalypse either, but maybe a new creation out of the existing one. Food for thought, thought for the soul, and so on. *Smile*

Yopo< Is it possible that some of the prophesies are intended to describe recurring, cyclical events, rather than one-time, final events? Stages of a journey, rather than the end of a journey?

LEGS< Yopo: Deep thought, that...

grunblau< There is always change. We live from cycle to cycle, just as a tree grows taller, a stream turns into a river. The tree may pass on and die, but it is recycled back to the source to provide for the next tree that grows on that spot. The river may dry up but there will be another near by. It cycles from one to the next. What matters is the experience and the lessons learned.

edward< grunblau: If you are talking about past lives and seeing past end-times, you have a very good thought! I recently read Whitley Strieber's book "The Secret School" and he mentioned this quite a bit. I highly recommend this book to all.

grunblau< edward: That is a good point, but how many times 1000 years has there been on this planet? It hasn't been the first time -- and it will not be the last -- and I have heard many variations to this end time. Heard one where this earth will actually split, one version will continue in this dimension and the lighter brighter one for those that choose will go on to another newer and better dimension -- but ya gotta choose to go.

grunblau< Ben: And who can say what the end time visions were like before this millennium? Perhaps there have been many, many millennia here on earth, and many have seen their own end-times -- either personal or global.

Ben< grunblau: Yes, that's why I moved the discussion tonight from "end of the world" to "end of the age" (eon or era). It makes a difference in how we look at it.

the_Muse< Ben: I think it will be a major shake-up, but the ones that will be the most hard hit are the ones who are the most comfortable with the current government and monetary system worldwide.

grunblau< What were the end-time predictions in 1900? Were there not people who ended themselves out of fear of the end times? Did they not see it in their own eyes to believe it? How much do we create for ourselves?

[Ben< grunblau: I have some earlier end-time predictions and hope to present two or three of them next week.]

Lor< Several have mentioned an "end of the world" as being caused by fire. I wonder if a nuclear war could be such a "fire".

windy< Lor: I have long pondered the possibilities; however, it wasn't until I heard Ed Dames prediction of a enormous solar flare that I felt "satisfied" as though something clicked (that harmonic action again). It fits with other descriptions and also in terms of the electro-magnetic field necessary for "ascension" or "transformation" of the planet to occur. In what New Agers refer to as the next "world", the planet itself "ascends" along with those inhabitants spiritually aware enough to ascend with it (in my opinion). For those unable to ascend, the "transformation" is a huge fireball. The earth literally is set aflame. It is possible that this "earth" continues to exist for a time, perhaps giving rise to the idea of "hell" as flame. Current genetic technologies might give some credence to the immortal hell idea... not a place I want to be, for sure.

the_Muse< windy: I have always been confused by the ascension and/or leaving behind of the earth theory of the new agers. May I refer to Isaiah 45:18? "For this is what the Lord says, he who created the heavens, he is God, he who fashioned and made the earth, he founded it, he did not create it to be empty but formed it to be inhabited."

windy< I believe there is a change coming because God told me about it as a small child before I ever had heard anything about practically anything.

Shaman13< Ezekiel 38: Israel will be lying in peace after the return of its people from many lands (1948). 38:14 This will happen in the distant future in the latter times of history. Even Daniel's vision was not to be understood until the end times.

Ben< ALL: Thank you for an interesting discussion, and for your courtesy.

Ben< /topic OPEN

the_Muse< I reiterate: while isolated cults of fanatics have been sure of the end of things many times, this is the first time it has been seen by such diverse groups worldwide, and all these different belief systems are simultaneously seeing the fulfillment of the signs they awaited.

SLIDER< the_Muse: Yes, it is a wonderful time of sharing beliefs, and finding the correlation of them all. We must remember to know our selves as spirit to understand the meaning. *smile*

windy< I do not believe in an ascension away from the earth, but rather with the earth. It is as though the earth is pregnant now, with a new earth. When the transformation comes, the new earth is "born" because the vibration at which we exist becomes higher ... faster ... thus, the word "ascension". I do not use it the same way the New Agers do (as far as I can tell).

the_Muse< windy: ahhh, yes. Well, that concept is predicted in a couple places in Isaiah and also of course in Revelation. I could give you the references to the new heavens and earth if you like?

windy< the_Muse: Thank you. I will appreciate the references. And I believe it is also the meaning behind the concept of the progression of worlds in Native American philosophies.

the_Muse< windy: There are several in the last couple chapters of Isaiah (65:17, 66:22). Revelations 20:11 to end of chapter and into first verses of Revelations 21.

windy< the_Muse: Thanks for the references.

grunblau< Prophecies of Merlin, by R J Stewart, based upon the translation by J A Giles -- Root and branch shall change place, and the newness of the thing shall pass as a miracle. The brightness of the sun shall fade in the amber of mercury, and horror shall seize the beholders. Stillborn of arcadia shall change his shield; the helmet of mars shall call venus. The helmet of mars shall make a shadow, and the rage of mercury shall exceed its orbit. Iron orion shall unsheathe his sword; the marine phobeus shall torment the clouds. Jupiter shall go out of his lawful path; and venus shall forsake her appointed circuits. (It goes on further to describe the rest of the Zodiac acting different in certain ways, then ends with) -- The seas shall rise up in the twinkling of an eye and the dust of the ancestors be restored. The four winds shall fight, coming together with a dreadful blast, and their sound shall reach to the stars.

windy< grunblau: Although I can't grasp all of the prophecy, there are many parts which fit well with other prophecies.

the_Muse< Windy: Me too, but I think it is the time of the big bang that is being described.

SLIDER< grunblau: That piece on Merlin sounds like the "Enuma Elish" with a little different wording?

grunblau< SLIDER: I am not familiar with the Enuma Elish.

SLIDER< grunblau: The Enuma Elish is the beginning of times according to the Sumerians.

grunblau< SLIDER: Ahh, most interesting. I do not know where this version is originally from, but maybe -- who knows? -- the original text may be a copy of a copy of a copy of a book lost but rewritten from memory that was actually a Sumarian nursery rhyme and they read it backward.

SLIDER< grunblau: I think you can find the Enuma Elish here on spirit web, in the search engine. It's worth looking at.

grunblau< SLIDER: I will look into that. Thanks for the info.

08. Apocalypse
Session 2: Sat 28 Feb 1998

Ben< ALL: Please testify to what you believe instead of attacking what someone else believes. And please type the nickname of the person you are addressing each time you post, to help me sort out the transcript later. (Thank you in advance.)

Ben< Last week several people asked about other predictions of an immanent end-time. There have been a great many of them. Tonight, I'll post four examples for your consideration and discussion. The first one is five paragraphs, so please watch as I post it and try to guess when it was written.

Ben< "At no period in the history of the world have mankind ever stood on the threshold of more eventful changes and mightier revolutions that at present. Most sublime is the attitude of those who can courageously overstep the rubicon limit of the present, and, passing into the unexplored regions of the distant future, can, with the torch of prophetic truth, discover the predestined arrangement of the startling changes that now await this earth."

Ben< "Many ignorant persons suppose that the time of the End of this Dispensation and of the Second Coming of Christ is altogether hidden from human discovery, but "they err, not knowing the Scriptures," which distinctly intimate that the time of the end shall be revealed to watchful Christians by the prophecies."

Ben< "Prince Jerome Napoleon ... corresponds with Daniel's description of the Last Antichrist, that he is to be of "fierce countenance and crafty policy, and a vile or despised person" (Daniel 8:23 & 25; 9:21) The fatal number 666 is discoverable in his name in the Greek: p=80, i=10, e=5, r=100, o=70, m=40, e=5, n=50, a=1, p=80, o=70, l=30, e=5, o=70, n=50 = 666 (P. Jerome Napoleon)"

the_Muse< Napoleon's time.

Ben< "The whole chain of events which has thus placed Prince Jerome at the Head of the Napoleon dynasty is so extraordinary that when viewed in connection with his other singular characteristics, it heightens the probability of his being destined to be the Great Napoleon of the final crisis of this dispensation, especially as the chronological dates of the 6000, 2520, 1260, and 360 years, as well as the apocalyptic septenaries and signs of the times, indicate that the final crisis is to transpire within a brief cluster of years of which AD 1890 is the convergent focus."

Ben< "Forty Coming Wonders, With Fifty Illustrations", by the editor of "The Christian Herald and Signs of Our Times" (1866, fourth edition 1880) 528 pages.

Ben< ALL: Comments? Questions? When did you guess which century that came from? YOUR TURN

Polgara< I'm not good with history, so not until you gave the first set of dates, Ben!

SLIDER< Ben: I was trying to recall my history, and I placed it in the last days of the Roman Empire!

Azriel< Lexicon was fairly modern -- I initially guessed the early 1900's, then the dates did help straighten me out!

the_Muse< Immediately, but prophecy is my thing. *smile* The thing that isolated visionaries and fanatics have done with these eschatological statements in the past is, they see one or two things that seemed to match a prophecy or two and feel that was it. But the end of the age is signified by ALL the things.

Ben< ALL: In case anyone was wondering, it's all there -- the two witnesses, the 3.5 years, all the seals and plagues -- everything in Revelation -- all leading to the conclusion I posted.

the_Muse< Ben: Who were the two witnesses? But of course their not dying and resurrecting after 3 1/2 days is the clincher.

Ben< the_Muse: The two witnesses are always prediction, and never named in retrospect, in every interpretation I've seen (except my own).

the_Muse< Ben: Yes, they would be! When we speak in retrospect of those two that died and resurrected, we will have no doubt. Unless we become convinced that the media has hoaxed us!

greyman< The fatal number 666: I = one (1), V = five (5), X = ten(10), L = fifty (50), C = one hundred (100), D = five hundred (500), M = one thousand (1,000). DCLXVI (additive), or IVXLCDM (subtractive), equals 666.

AmericasSoul< greyman: What are you saying ... 666 = 6 neutrons, 6 protons, 6 electrons = CARBON = the source of all organic life including humans?

greyman< AmericasSoul: Sorry, no. Roman numerals. The numbering system known to John when he was exiled on the isle of Patmos, where his Revelation book was written.

the_Muse< AmericasSoul: That is very interesting! The fractal base of the number, I bet! I think it also means the time of the end is when the number of man reaches completion: 6,666,666,666 people, which the US census predicts for the late winter of 2007. The projected date at this time is Dec 20. But no one can really say the day or hour the baby will be born that completes that number.

AmericasSoul< the_Muse: Which part?

windy< I rather liked Muse's explanation of 666 as relating to the over 6.66 billion people that will soon be living on the earth.

5foot2< the_Muse: I wonder if some believed it was "the time" when the numbers approached 666,666 or 666,666,666.

the_Muse< 5foot2: When those numbers were reached they passed without a thought, as no man had the ability to calculate the world population until the latter half of this century.

AmericasSoul< 5foot2 and the_Muse: 666x3 = 1998 ... 666 upside down = 999 x 2 = 1998. Mabus is Nostradamus name of the third anti-christ (that is sudam -- as in Hussein) backwards, so this may be the right year. That is what CAYCE said.

AmericasSoul< the_Muse: FOX (as in FOX-TV or FOX Mulder) ... FOX is 666? Or maybe the animal FOX will turn into the BEAST (666) or carry and spread a disease that will wipe out most of the living things on Earth?

dreamwalk< Well, the Apocalypse did not end the world in the time of Napoleon. There is no reason to believe we face the same inevitable consequence. I may be off base completely, but somehow I just don't GET IT!

Zarastan< Overall remark - HUH? Not connecting with the point on guessing the dates here.

Ben< dreamwalk and Zarastan: I appreciate your reactions. They were mine, also, when I found that book in my father's archives. It was given as a gift in 1882.

dreamwalk< No, I couldn't guess the dates. The whole thing pretty much flew over my head. But comments and questions were also invited.

Azriel< But in a sense, things changed dramatically in those times -- industrially, technologically, culturally.

dreamwalk< There will always be sensitives who "pick-up" vibes. It is a built-in survival mechanism for our race to have those, no matter what century, to feel imminent danger and wish to warn others.

Lor< But dreamwalk, what if the "vibes" are out of sync? Doesn't that make them rather meaningless?

dreamwalk< Lor: Yes. That is why each individual has the responsibility to use their mind with healthy skepticism and to develop their own intuitive link to know the difference.

Omat< There is only the eternal NOW. All else is misleading.

Zarastan< Omat: Nostradamus got it x years ago, too. So... now what? Here we are in the middle of it. Next case! Being fully in the moment, fully present.

5foot2< "At no period in the history of the world have mankind ever stood on the threshold of more eventful changes and mightier revolutions that at present." That is always true, for it is in our present that we face our unknown future, the possibilities of which are wonderful and mighty and yet unknown. I believe through time that phrase has been said many, many, many, times.

SLIDER< If I had lived in Bosnia the past ten or twenty years and had no outside contact, I think any of the revelations would seem possible. Well, I haven't, but where I live I hear all the world news, or what the press will let me hear, and things sound bad in the world. If I didn't listen to any news and just lived an ordinary life in the USA, I might not think any end times were soon to come. I think the human mind causes most of what happens to happen!

Zarastan< How does the "Apocalypse" relate to the solar eclipse of Thursday with the alignment that occurs once every -- what? thousand, hundred thousand, xxx years? Nostradamus saw that, too. Where is he when we need him? RIGHT HERE. We're all right here, keeping our knees bent, flexible, moving and flowing with the energy in this moment. Throw away the book. We're in uncharted territory. "Here there be Dragons? or Angels?"

Dolphin< So, Ben, are you trying to show that many have predicted big changes before and wanting to know why things are any different now?

Ben< Dolphin: I'm just showing some examples of similar predictions, the point being, this stuff isn't new or exclusively the property of our generation.

Dolphin< Perhaps all these people misunderstood that the end meant only the end as things were, big changes, and the coming Christ is to come back "through" us, not outside us. So this HAS and IS happening all throughout the ages.

AmericasSoul< So what is the Destiny of America in all of this?

Azriel< Why do we persist in end prophecies instead of seeking/seeing new beginnings?

the_Muse< Azriel: The end of this age is the current topic. Is it disturbing to you? I see the end of a pregnancy as the beginning of looking at my child's face. And the end of a pregnancy is painful.

Tahara< Azriel: From what I have read and heard, many people view the Apocalypse as the end of one time and the beginning of another.

AmericasSoul< Ben: What do you think?

Ben< AmericasSoul: I think we need to be ready, personally, without knowing if or when the "end" will occur.

AmericasSoul< Ben: I agree. If we enlighten others, we can produce new causes to counter old causes that are supposed to create negative effects. If we produce a positive effect with a new cause, we may prevent a negative event from ever occurring. Use of free-will to learn according to the LAW of Cause and Effect.

Vimana< How close are we to Apocalypse?

AmericasSoul< Vimana: We are on an EVENT clock, not a TIME clock, and that is why the exact time is not and never has been known.

Vimana< Thank you.

AmericasSoul< End times = End of Age (Piscean Age). Jesus said "I will be with you until the end of the age" ... remember?

5foot2< So, AmericasSoul, it seems we are our own worst nightmare.

AmericasSoul< 5foot2: Depends on what we create with our thoughts. If we think and act negatively; i.e., all of these bad events are going to occur, then they will. If we think and act positively, we might lessen or prevent them from ever occurring. However, this will take a lot of conscious awareness rising among the masses.

Miata< New Age people have to be ready to change along with the changes in the planet. What Nostradamus said is mostly outdated. Remember that the whole Universe is dynamic, ever changing. You can't always go by a guy that lived hundred of years ago.

Zarastan< Miata: I'm with you on that. You can't go with a guy that was here five minutes ago! You've just got to BE with the energy and BE present.

Lor< Miata: Yes, what Nostradamus said is mostly outdated, but what about how well his predictions have been born out, even to the impact of Hitler on history?

grizzly< Ever since Jesus said he will come again, mankind has been looking for it, predicting when it will happen, awaiting for the time when they will be drawn to heaven, a better place than here.

Vimana< Jesus said that even the angels in heaven did not know the hour of his coming.

Lyrian< I understand that panicking in the face of the millennium is probably not necessary, but even if I was not religious, there are things happening in our environment that leaves our future on this planet in question.

Ben< ALL: Next offering:

Ben< "William Miller, a Baptist minister, studied the prophecies recorded in the Old Testament Book of Daniel and the New Testament Book of Revelation. After many calculations, he announced in 1831 that the Second Advent would occur in 1843 or 1844. Thousands of people believed him, and many sold their possessions. His followers waited for the coming of Christ at the end of the world. When the world did not end in 1844, many of Miller's followers were bitterly disappointed. They abandoned his movement to found new ones." (World Book Encyclopedia)

Ben< ALL: Do you know of other groups like the Millerites? YOUR TURN

Dolphin< Ben: Yes, and where they went wrong was when they looked outside themselves for answers and tried to follow others, for example: Heaven's Gate.

the_Muse< Yes, in the last couple of years there has been a "transcension to the next dimension" fervor, with people saying that studying science and history, understanding this world, will be useless as we will slip into another dimension where all trash will recycle itself. They predicted it would come in the spring of 1996, then the winter of 1996. Then of course, there was the Heaven's Gate bunch.

JUNE< Gosh, Ben, there have been many, many such groups.

Zarastan< Yes, there were a BUNCH of folks who sold or gave away everything and went to New Zealand so they could be picked up by the ships and whisked away on the Harmonic Convergence. It didn't happen, either. AND... ???

JUNE< Wasn't Heaven's Gate one of those groups? and Jim Jones and his Grape Kool-Aid Group years ago?

Azriel< Heaven's Gate created a self-fulfilling prophecy, at least for their group.

Lyrian< Ben: What can we do to prepare besides selling everything and moving to New Zealand or something?

Ben< Lyrian: Let's look at the question "What can we do about it?" a little later. I believe that is the bottom-line question for this entire subject.

Vimana< Good point, Ben!

Lor< Didn't Cayce's source predict that the earth would shift it's axis sometime in 1998? That would be something of the nature of what we're discussing.

[Ben< Lor: Cayce predicted a pole-shift, but I'm not sure about the year. However, he did very clearly predict that Atlantis would rise in 1969, so I watched for any indication of that happening, as a test of the accuracy of his predictions. It didn't.]

Dolphin< Is it so hard for us to see that these "ends" of ages have been happening all along? They have happened before and they will again. We just happen to be in the middle of another one.

the_Muse< But this time it is the native Americans that have seen the signs of the return of the White Buffalo Calf Woman. The aborigines see the age coming to an end. The Mayan timekeepers saying the age is about to end. Not any one group, but every traditional mystic group worldwide. Hopi, deep rain forest lost tribes, have come out for the first time to warn of the end of the age.

windy< Yes, indeed, Muse, I agree that it is all these groups together with their prophecies and signs that seem to indicate the time is soon.

the_Muse< Windy: I think prophecy is like an onion, with many layers. So my interpretation is just one layer. I think it gives us a general time frame that we could never have calculated before we had the computer to keep track of it. So the computer (image of the Beast) is also a factor.

grizzly< The only one who knows the hour and day of Christ's return to earth is God himself.

Lor< But grizzly, how do you know the only one who knows the hour and day of Christ's return to earth is God himself?

grizzly< Lor: This is what is written in the bible.

Lor< But grizzly, what can anyone really depend on that's written in the Bible? How do we KNOW for certain? I think much is basically right on, but some is far from what the churches teach today. Perhaps we are to depend on the covenant of Jeremiah -- that we each are to be given the knowledge of what is really good and what is not. If that is so, some credence can be given to those who say " listen within".

Zarastan< The ancient name of the Sphinx in Arabic is "Arc Uhr" which means "the end of the beginning, connected to the beginning of the end." This isn't something new. Shamanic death and rebirth. We seem to be the ONLY culture on earth who sees the END as the end and not as the beginning. And few besides us have feared "death".

the_Muse< Zarastan: The Christian idea of the end of the age also sees it as a new beginning. Last week I gave several references that mention the "new heavens and new earth" that will follow.

dreamwalk< I suppose I don't want to invest too much power in apocalyptic messages because they seem to freeze us with fear instead of imbue us with inspiration. I for one know if everyone lived with an open heart, none of this emotionally draining drama would fill the center of our attention.

Tahara< dreamwalk: Some people look forward to the Apocalypse coming, and are upset when it doesn't happen when predicted, but all the same look at it as a beginning as a new start, not as the end.

Ben< ALL: Another small example, with some comments by an author I've found interesting: "Belief in Christ's Second Coming is an orthodox Christian tenet, but the Adventist movement is heterodox in its insistence that prophecy proves that mankind is now living in the last days. Down the Christian ages there have been [many] who have even given dates for an event which Christ plainly said was not within man's province to know. An Adventist sect which appeared in the 1760s was the United Society of Believers in Christ's Second Coming, or Shakers, as they were popularly known. They gathered under the leadership of Ann Lee." [David Christie-Murray, A History of Heresy]

Dolphin< The angels in Heaven cannot know when Jesus is coming because he comes back for each of us "when we are ready" and that can be in the "twinkling of an eye." That is the end of our times then, when that happens, when we become awakened.

Azriel< Dolphin: My point -- we frequently see the prophecies interpreted as indicating the end of life as we know it. Granted, that is a possibility, but I believe it means a transformation that can lead to a new beginning.

dreamwalk< Azriel: I agree with your point. We may be poised on a new threshold with the death of our old beliefs.

AmericasSoul< According to many sources, including the Pyramid and prophets such as Cayce, WE ARE in the end times. CHANGE will occur. How difficult or easy the change is, is up to us by our thoughts, emotions, and actions. Right now the material (money) realm has a stranglehold on the world, so at this point, it would be a difficult change, but we can change that.

Omat< When one is centered within his own true self, when one knows his own true self, mountains can crumble to the sea, ocean can rise. When one is centered, whatever the future brings is known to be part of a divine plan, and is met with the strength that comes from knowledge. First seek understanding and knowledge of self. Live in the present. Enjoy discussion. Got to go.

meditate< Enjoyed this very much. Got to go. Just Be Here Now in the present, meditate and the rest will take care of itself. The power of people awakening will shift any prophesies.

Yopo< Perhaps "the end of time" doesn't refer to some specific time, but to an event "outside" of time. Maybe it is some realm of transition that all souls enter into at a point in their evolution. You couldn't say it will be on December 20, 2012, for example. Instead, it might be happening before, and now, and later, from our present perspective. Maybe we are trying to drag that event into a context our temporal minds can understand, and in so doing we generate a misguided anticipation of coming events in this realm. (?)

windy< Well said, Yopo.

AmericasSoul< Yopo: Supposedly our calendar is off, and Christ was born in 4 BC, without a "zero" year, so this is 2001.

Dolphin< There are going to be massive changes and many people leaving this earth, but it will be billions of years before this laboratory is completely obsolete. Our mission here is to Listen within and be guided where to go and help so as to save as much technology as possible. It takes eons to bring this new technology down to this level, so we must save what we have so far discovered here.

AmericasSoul< The beginning of the Third Millennium ... I would say July 4th, 1998 is a big day (222nd Anniversary of USA Birthday). Maybe a hailstorm, or maybe just fireworks.

Ben< ALL: Here is one I like and find interesting. It is the shortest and clearest version of the end-time I have seen.

Ben< "Be watchful for your life; do not let your lamps be quenched or your loins be ungirded, but be ready, for you do not know the hour in which our Lord comes. Be often gathered together, seeking what is fit for your souls, for the whole time of your faith will not profit you if you are not perfect [full-grown, fully-mature] at the end of the season. For in the last days false prophets and seducers will be multiplied, and the sheep will be turned into wolves, and love will be turned into hate. For as lawlessness increases, they will hate and persecute and betray one another. And then the deceiver of the world will appear as a son of God, and he will do signs and wonders, and the earth will be delivered into his hands, and he will do unlawful things such as never happened since the world began. Then the creation of man will come to the fiery trial of testing, and many will stumble and perish, but those who endure in the faith will be saved alive from under the curse. And then will appear the signs of the truth: first the sign of an opening in the heavens, then the sign of the sound of the trumpet, and thirdly a resurrection of the dead: not of all, but as it is said: "The Lord will come and all his saints with him." Then the world will see the Lord coming on the clouds of heaven."

Ben< The Didache ("The Teaching") Chapter 16. The Didache was written before AD 150. I believe it is a sample of the teaching of Barnabas and Paul in AD 47.

the_Muse< Ben: I know that is the basis of the "rapture" but the seventh trumpet that shows the full revelation of man's place in the universe sounds in Ch 11 right after the two witnesses resurrect. I think the rapture will be just those two. Then having the whole story revealed and having received the Christ spirit, all of mankind will have the opportunity to walk their talk, when the chips are down.

[Ben< the_Muse: The Didache was written for clarity. Revelation is intentionally obscure; it was written to conceal its message from the Roman censors. So I place more credence in what I just quoted than I do in the entire book of Revelation.]

FRAML< I don't worry about when the "End Time" is. I believe that if I work at laying up my treasures in heaven -- that is, how I help people, act according to the teachings of Jesus, and realize that in the end the material things I have in this existence don't go with me when I die -- then I am ready to go whenever IT does happen.

windy< Sounds like a spiritually sound plan, FRAML.

AmericasSoul< FRAML and Ben: I do not know about you guys, but I plan on sticking around after the great changes begin and helping those left on Earth, to help create the New Civilization and begin the Golden Age. The last thing I want to do is to leave or take off.

FRAML< AmericasSoul: I think we are speaking of differing points. Some say that when the end-times come, all will be taken (the Rapture). Others say that it will be a big cataclysmic kill-off. In either case, I am spiritually ready for life after death. Until then I will continuing to practice, rather than preach, the two great commandments of Jesus.

Tahara< FRAML: I think we all are ready for death if death comes, but if we do not do our best to stay alive, who be left behind for those who no longer believe?

FRAML< Tahara: I don't believe in a "Heaven's Gate Spaceship" type of thing, nor am I a survivalist. I just do my best each day to live out my beliefs, and to help others in that way.

AmericasSoul< FRAML: I do not think we can let the last 6000 years of immediate human history distract us from the larger picture at hand. The Universe has been in existence for billions of years (of which 6000 years is a blink), and if I were to venture a guess, I would say that we will be around for billions of more years.

Tahara< AmericasSoul: The Universe has been around for many, many years, but mankind has not. The universe will go on.

AmericasSoul< Tahara: Maybe our bodies, but our souls for much, much longer.

Tahara< AmericasSoul: That depends upon the person's view of the soul.

AmericasSoul< FRAML and Ben: The Great Work set forth by the Great Author will go forward. The Great Experiment was begun in America 222 years ago this year, and it is about to take a turn for the better.

greyman< AmericasSoul: You have my vote.

AmericasSoul< Thanks, greyman. I'm running for office someday, too.

[Ben< AmericasSoul: What you wrote is very patriotic, but if some of the present trends continue, it may be wishful thinking.]

Omat< Oh no, it's the end of time, I have to go. But then again, if there is no more time, what's the rush?

Jahme< What is time anyway? Webster says: existence as a succession of states. What if the end of time is existence as all states at once?

Zarastan< As Chun said, "Time is a confidence game invented by the Swiss." Trying to pinpoint a time is like assuming there is an end to one's spiritual journey, a destination. If we can instead view this as a process, an unfolding, we will no longer need to be taking of time slices and asking "was it that second, this second?" We can just let GO. That's maybe the point of the apocalypse. A transformation where we can release our time sense to something higher. Where we can stop second-guessing the future and trying to base it on the past. Where we can LEARN and GROW and not limit ourselves to what we think happened. We can allow our divine wisdom to flow forth, into us and through us.

Azriel< Zarastan: ((((Wonderful))))

the_Muse< Zarastan: The ancient mystics of all people took great concern with time. Look at Stonehenge! And the Mayan timekeepers, and all the other time related "vortex" sites. Why? Because you cannot grow food and prepare for winter if you do not have a good calendar. But it is even more than that, don't you think?

Awenydd< the_Muse: I don't know. Back then, I think that all the people really worried about was survival. Which does mean crops, hunting, etc. For which they did need a calendar to measure time. Other than that, I feel they had no use for it.

the_Muse< Awenydd: If so, then why the pyramids? In the new and old world, building them was a tremendous effort we could not duplicate today. This shows a concern with more than just getting food to mouth, don't you think?

Zarastan< There were eras on this planet when time was the most important question. What time is it? It's now time to let go of time. Could that be why they call it "the end time." Couldn't that mean that time as we know it, as a place marker, as a determinant, is ending?

Polgara< I like that thought, Zarastan! Do you know there's a man that has actually developed a computer algorithm that shows that very thing? Time coming to an end... not the world, just time!

Ben< Zarastan: We are more aware of time and more linked to it than people have ever been. We can't hardly make it today without clock and calendar.

milk< I wonder what the purpose is of speculation? Is it to address the nature of fear and of faith?

AmericasSoul< milk: To take corrective or alternative action if the speculation is negative, and take positive affirmative action if the speculation is good. (No action on a good speculation will lead to a negative event.)

milk< What is the feeling in the body when one buys into the idea that this is a time of Apocalypse? Is it possible that the psychological/emotional clearing work that ensues is part of the purpose of examining the range of possibility brought on by IDEAS?

MonaHawke< milk: I think that is a very good point, and a big part of the overall picture of why this subject fascinates so.

milk< I wonder what it means to our present day societal framework to attach ourselves to the idea that we can know when the world will die or be reborn. Why do you think we need to have such a sense of control over our universe at this point in our evolution?

MonaHawke< milk: Perhaps because we long to remember our own part in and contribution to the bigger picture.

Tahara< milk: I think that it is human nature to want to survive on Earth, so we wish to know to survive.

windy< Tahara: I think that helping others is a part of our evolution, but for some of us, it may be time for a break. As FRAML says there seem to be two primary but divergent prophecies: an earth that transcends, and an earth that may be destroyed. It is possible that both earths may co-exist for a time, may intertwine, separate, and come together at a later time.

the_Muse< windy: That is what I think about as a "theory" also.

windy< the_Muse: Think of the Hopi prophecy: the two divergent roads, the paths that separate. One goes on into the new world, the Hopi's "fifth world" -- the other leads to a world which eventually destroys itself. It is indeed a rather difficult concept to grasp, that of two worlds co-existing at the same time -- two earths, so to speak -- but this is the conclusion I have come to from studying the prophecies, the myths, the stories, and my own visions, etc.

the_Muse< windy: That is exactly what I was thinking of! But then I realized that all prophecy does that same thing. So, since there is a vision of two resulting choices, then both must exist. This is the concept explained by the physics of Schrödinger's cat.

[Ben< the_Muse: Schrödinger's mind-experiment about the cat was a convoluted way to avoid the common-sense statement: "We don't know until we look."]

windy< Sorry, FRAML: I didn't mean to imply that you presented the idea about the two earths. I just meant the part about the two main prophecies.

FRAML< windy: Good point. I seek continuing on a spiritual plane that is above this earth, but one where I can serve my master to help those here after my carbon life-form dissolves into the dust.

Tahara< windy: Yes, I know that some will die and some will live on. I was just meaning that we don't do everything humanly possible to stay alive, without going against our morals or spiritual beliefs.

milk< Tahara: Yes, we all want to survive, but what we are doing is toying with death. We are embracing the idea that we can guess when this death will take place, and we are willing to become part of an elite that holds information and can then somehow escape (spiritually) the fate that is held as a future for all. How is that survival?

Tahara< milk: Some seek to escape death. Some wish to watch. Some wish just to grow old and complete their cycle in life.

windy< Tahara. I don't intend to die. Rather, I intend to find myself in a world where evil no longer exists (for a time at least), where the earth is clean and man and all creatures can live in harmony ... a new beginning.

Tahara< windy: I seek the same, but I think there are gonna have to be some folks who survive to lead and teach others to bring about that time.

windy< I don't mean to sound terse, Tahara. I agree with you: trying to stay alive is the right thing to do. I guess what I am trying to say is: I believe, in the world to come, there won't be much need to help each other spiritually, because all will be enlightened, having made it to the next world ... and people such as the one who mentioned wanting to stay and help people might find themselves in a world that will be destroyed because they chose to "help" those who needed some moral support as they suffer the consequences of their choices.

Tahara< windy: Yes, I understand, but there are many people who don't believe there is any God or after-life. They believe their lives are just a bunch of random acts, and when they die, they die -- nothing more. I was referring more to people who believe like that. And also, many people will cast away their Gods or God because they feel betrayed.

windy< Tahara: I understand what you mean, and I know you are right, and there probably always should be some people who remain to teach those who have forgotten their origins. It is my belief that such work in many cases shortens the time some souls might spend in learning on their own. But I believe that all eventually evolve to be one with God. Although I have spent much time in such work, I wonder sometimes if it hasn't been somewhat presumptuous of me, since we are all equal beings on our paths seeking God in our way, in our own time. I guess, however we choose to live our time, it all is within God's plan.

the_Muse< windy and Tahara: I do not think we will need to remain to teach our neighbor, for all will have the eye-opening of the other. But those that will remain will heal the planet and love all of the works of Gods hands. Not just mankind.

milk< MonaHawke: Can you say more about why this topic fascinates you personally? What does it do for your psyche's evolution to consider that this might be a time of tremendous change, or alternatively, a time of no change at all? (By that I mean the idea that we will perish at any moment and that we can be privy to the info but cannot control it because it's been predestined; this is no new concept.) How does it affect you personally to consider and be part of this dialogue?

MonaHawke< milk: The subject itself does not fascinate me. I am interested in the energy put into the discussion and all the different reactions to it. I have lived much of my life on the edge and spent a lot of time dancing with death, and being certain of where I will be when next I transcend. The 'end' (if it comes at all) will only look like another step in the journey to me.

milk< MonaHawke: Yes, I am also fascinated by the energy sparking off the discussion! And sociologically, I have to admit that is fascinating in itself, but I am weary of all the predictions. This area seems to me to be a whole other area worth studying, but none of it do I consider to be close to any truth.

MonaHawke< milk: I have noticed that more and more are predicting, and more and more are wrong -- no hit whatsoever. I believe this is partly because when some make dire predictions, light-workers and folks believing they can change the course of events take positive steps to do so.

milk< MonaHawke: Well, when it comes to the game of prediction, we are dealing with probability met by possibility (and then some) aren't we? I'm very interested in the fact that many feel they need to know "how" and "when" something will happen, when I believe we can all benefit from understanding that being a part of spirit is a much more organic process. All this pinpointing will only lead to the narrowing of possibility for the individual self in creation. And again, I believe it has something more to do with the individual need to control, know, or believe in something, than it has to do with the capacity to go with the mystery. To be truly human is to give in to the mesh and flow of the universe ... not an easy task. But all this predicting ... really! ... where can it lead? If not to some sort of study.

Chester< Pardon the interruption in such a fascinating chat. In referring to the game of prediction as dealing with probability met by possibility, are you saying that 70 percent of the world's religion is based on probability rather than faith?

[Ben< Chester: I'm sorry that no one answered your question during the seminar. However, no, we weren't discussing the basis of religions this time.]

AmericasSoul< Seek knowledge ... not belief.

grizzly< It is also said in the Bible that God will not send Jesus again until every living soul on earth has heard the gospel (the word of God).

milk< grizzly: What would be a modern day definition for the "christed one"? According to our now more open knowledge of cross-cultural beliefs.

grizzly< milk: Not sure what you mean?

Ben< ALL: What events in history must have seemed like the end of the world to those who were caught up in them? YOUR TURN

Polgara< Both World Wars. The Black Death. The Inquisition.

JUNE< The Holocaust.

AmericasSoul< Exactly, Polgara and JUNE: We may have the darkest days of humanity just around the corner, but however bad they get is purely due to our own negative karma (law of cause and effect). Once we resolve our karma through the trials and tribulations (and perhaps some revelations will come true), then we have the best days of the world ahead of us all -- the prophesied GOLDEN AGE -- but we must CREATE it, not wait for it.

[Ben< AmericasSoul: By comparison to the records we have of every age and place on Earth, including legends and myths, this -- right now -- is a Golden Age. There is an underlying anxiety that it cannot last, and some rationalize that anxiety.]

Yopo< The Black Death, for sure.

Awenydd< For me, I see the end on the horizon, but perhaps that is merely my own mortality. More recently, I would say the world wars. I would even venture that the first coming of Christ may have seemed to have been the end to some.

Ben< The destruction of Jerusalem and the whole Jewish nation in AD 70.

Azriel< The world wide flu epidemic in the early 1900's. AIDS.

the_Muse< The Black Plague. The coming of the Spaniards to the new world. The destruction of Ur. The great flood. Both world wars. The influenza epidemic. Haley's comet in 1910. The Ghost dancers.

Zarastan< Even the word "apocalypse" sounds scary! OOOOOOO! Shake and shiver! All the books -- the Bible, the Koran, Nostradamus -- are all mind games. They are holding us in our heads, trying to figure this all out. But this is THE Great Mystery. We can't understand it with our tiny minds. We can only get it holistically, with our heart/mind/body/spirit. If we try to take it apart and analyze it, we KILL it -- or at least we KILL the sense of it as we are trying to get it. This is not something we can disassemble to make it easy for our little pin heads. We must ingest the whole thing, all at once. No other way than to EXPERIENCE it fully. No holding back. It's happening, all around us, to each of us, at different rates, in different moments. (In my humble opinion)

Polgara< Well, in all the Apocalyptic literature that I've ever read, there was a long period of peace -- 1,000 years -- and to my reckoning, we haven't ever HAD anywhere NEAR a thousand years of peace!

Awenydd< But a few strategically placed nukes WOULD bring about a 1000 years of peace, and that is only a few moments away at any given time.

Polgara< Well, Awenydd, in a manner of speaking, yes, it would, but I don't think we'll get off like that. I think we're going to have to learn a lot more. I hope!

grizzly< Awenydd: I agree that it could happen, but I seriously doubt that it ever will. There have been enough nuclear bombs created to totally destroy the world 10 times over. Everyone is to scared to push the button, unless they're as crazy as Saddam Hussein.

the_Muse< Awenydd: The absence of war is not peace. Not if you have over-run hospitals unable to deal with the radiation-related illness and the further loss of land that can be used to grow food. And who decides what is the correct use of a NUKE? My God, no!

Awenydd< the_Muse: So you admit that the definition of peace may vary. So how would you know when there has been a thousand years of peace? And who is to say just how accurately the word "peace" or even 1000 years for that matter was translated out of the bible? Too many unknown factors to try and predict the end. It is better to just be prepared for it when it happens.

Sea-Goat< The Apocalypse will be like the Solar System taking a shit, and the Earth will act as its ass-hole.

greyman< Sea-Goat: More like the Sun, when it begins a carbon flash (just before it becomes a red giant, extending beyond Earth's orbit).

Sea-Goat< greyman: You've got me confused. Are you stating that you think this "Age" will be ended by the Sun and not our own activities? OK, now I'm REALLY confused. Are we talking about the end of the Age, or the end of EARTH??

greyman< Sea-Goat: Ahhh, no. We may destroy ourselves. Or we may be hit by a comet, asteroid, or biological agent. But our ultimate fate is our Sun going out in some 5 billion years. If we do not go beyond a type 2 civilization in that time, all bets are off (insofar as the biological life we know).

Lor< Wasn't there someone who predicted that life the earth would not be stopped by water, as in the time of Noah, but would again happen by FIRE? I guess that a burst from the sun could be considered a FIRE!

windy< Just a thought about the end times scenario coming out of Medjugorje (near Sarajevo) where some young people claim to be visited repeated by the Blessed Lady (I would say Mary, but she evidently does not like to be pinned down to Mary, as though perhaps Mary is just one of her lives or identities). The predicted scenario is something like this: it starts with a huge solar phenomenon, then approximately three days of darkness at which time there will be great winds (like the sound of a train) and storms (lightening, thunder, heavy rain). She describes what seems to be a rip in space-time, a place of no time, no space, where almost anything is possible. People will succumb to their fears. She recommends staying indoors in the state of prayer. After the three days: for the faithful, a brand new world; for those who did not choose God, love, etc. ... Armageddon.

[Ben< windy: Thank you for your parenthetical comment about the source of those messages. I've often thought that Lady might not be Mary the mother of Jesus.]

Ben< ALL: Okay, the bottom-line question, which some have already answered: what are you going to do (or not do) about the present end-time predictions? YOUR TURN

AmericasSoul< Be aware of them, but not dwell on them (since thoughts will only increase probability and severity). Help people understand to change their ways to produce new causes which will produce new effects, positive ones to counter negative ones, and positive ones to produce positive events. This is what I do.

grizzly< AmericasSoul: I agree we must all become brothers/sisters and live in harmony.

Zarastan< grizzly: The way to start that is just simply to start doing it yourself. If one person does it, then that's one less person who is in crisis. You can make a difference. Can't get to peace by practicing chaos and conflict every day. So, choosing peace. As Thich Nhat Hanh says, "Peace Is Every Step."

Polgara< Yes, Zarastan, very true! I believe that each of us averts chaos EVERY TIME we choose PEACE!

grizzly< Zarastan: I agree, but it is not always possible. Anger does get the best of us from time to time.

Zarastan< grizzly: Anger is a choice, too.

Polgara< I think several people have said it, but I'll add my voice. I'm going to continue to do my best to be true to my beliefs, and hope that if there is an apocalypse, my Higher Power has a plan for me!

AmericasSoul< Polgara: I am willing to give up my SOUL (the very existence of it) if it means not merely BELIEVING that Jesus or God or some other entity will take care of me. I DO NOT know the motivations of any spirits, aliens, or anything else. Unless I KNOW, I will not believe (and that may be my downfall). I must know their motivations.

Polgara< AmericasSoul: But I already know the motivation of my God: "All things work to the good of them who love the Lord." That may sound simplistic to a lot of people, but I am fortunate enough to have seen many examples in my own life. For me that is enough.

Zarastan< Polgara: Doesn't it make you wonder about the Project 2000 that so many (including my step-brother) are madly working on? Trying to get computers to recognize the next millennium... hmm?

Polgara< Yes, Zarastan, I DO wonder about that, and many other such projects that no one ever wants to talk about too much!

SLIDER< FRAML: If I don't get to meet you on this side, I'll certainly look for you on the other side. I'm ready for whatever might happen. I've been ready truly for the last twenty eight years. I cherish this human life, but I don't hold it so dear that I worry about the apocalypse or end times. So be it...

FRAML< SLIDER: Target! cease fire. (i.e., I totally agree.)

greyman< I hope I have time to light up one last cigar, and then report home.

FRAML< greyman, SLIDER and FRAML: All with the same idea, and the lovely Polgara along-side.

Polgara< Why thank you, FRAML!

Zarastan< What am I going to do from now until the End? Live in peace until whatever happens, happens. In the moment. Each day is a good day to die and a good day to live. PEACE.

Yopo< Zarastan: Well said!

Azriel< Every one of us faces the possibility of personal physical extinction at any time. I will continue to seek a deeper spiritual awareness, work to protect all that we have been given in nature, and love all that share this existence, no matter their form or belief.

Yopo< Well, for myself, I just consider these end-time predictions as part of the backdrop of the times I presently live in. I think all of the various specific predictions are individually false, but collectively true, in that they serve to give shape to and alert us to a time of great peril that we are moving into on this planet. I for one don't think it is for us to spiritually transcend the material world and thus escape catastrophe, but to bring the realm of spirit INTO this world, and raise it up to a higher level. Our true business is HERE, or we wouldn't have come here in the first place. (IMHO)

AmericasSoul< Forget about the Alamo. Remember the shattered planet between Mars and Jupiter that we destroyed. Remember Atlantis, and Lemuria, and Hyperborea. THIS TIME WE WILL DO IT RIGHT!

greyman< AmericasSoul: Words said by Tesla before his funding dried up.

AmericasSoul< greyman: Really? *smile*

greyman< AmericasSoul: Yep.

the_Muse< milk: I liked your point about the concept making us do the cleaning out that we should do. But I do not think that the end of the age will be all that sudden or unlivable.

milk< the_Muse: I agree with you that the end of the age will not be a sudden event at all. I already have been experiencing the "change" for the last 12 years, and now that the millennium is approaching, I do sense the speeding up of the magnetic current around here, but the changes are sudden only for those who need to have a sudden experience (like people whose houses are falling off cliffs into the ocean). For others it will be gradual.

Polgara< Yes, milk, I agree! LOL!

the_Muse< milk: That is a good point. So the lessons may be similar but the content of the lesson and the method that best teaches it fits the 6,666,666,666 individuals that are in "school"?

milk< the_Muse: I don't know that attaching any mathematical reality will really describe what you are personally going to get out of the change. I mean, why is this multitudinous "6" figure important?

grizzly< 666 is the reference and the mark of the fallen angel, Lucifer.

AmericasSoul< grizzly: Lucifer and Jesus were most likely brothers, and Lucifer means LIGHT.

the_Muse< All ancient peoples that left records were OBSESSED with having their festivals on certain days. Just obsessed.

Awenydd< the_Muse: Of course, religion has always been a fascination. You must look at the Egyptians, though. They did not live just to survive; they had the vision to ask themselves why they were here, and came to the conclusion that it must be a transition stage to the next world. If I lived in the desert such as they did, I would certainly not choose to think *that* life was all there is. There must be something more. And that was their whole reason for living, to prepare themselves for the next stage. Living was just something they did, much like we do today. We do not think about living as much as folks in the past; we think about the next stage, though in this modern world, the next stage is more like keeping up with the Joneses.

Mandamus< I'm afraid that, as time unfolds, the prophets of old look more and more like the real deal. If the prophecies are indeed correct, then there is nothing that we can do to alter the great plan.

AmericasSoul< Mandamus: Remember free-will and predestination co-exist.

Mandamus< Yes ... but is that going to alter God's plan?

AmericasSoul< Mandamus: God's PLAN is not destruction. It is for us to become "GOD-realized beings". How we get there is up to us.

Mandamus< Yes. Then there's the revelation ... for the saved to escape and the damned to experience ... or just a fairy tale.

the_Muse< Mandamus: I don't think it is a matter of saved and damned, but a time for making choices based on having all the information one needs to understand those choices. Then the suffering will be a result of our own choices to either correct the errors of our past or to continue them. It will not be easy, but that is the way most important lessons are. I always know that when I have had a really awful time, I say, "Boy, but I learned a lot!"

Tahara< the_Muse: Maybe, but with most of the people I know now, I truly wonder if we wouldn't be driven into a time of chaos instead of enlightenment.

the_Muse< Tahara: The time of all becoming personally enlightened would almost assuredly be chaotic! LOL

Tahara< the_Muse: I don't think we speak of the same thing.

the_Muse< Tahara: I really do hope that "Mad Max" and "Road Warrior" and "Beyond the Thunder Dome" are not accurate visions of mankind's behavior under conditions of adversity. *smile*

Tahara< the_Muse: I sure hope they aren't!

Mandamus< the_Muse: Do you think that the wording in Revelation and in other references point to a place in time after the apocalypse to alter or correct our previous choices?

the_Muse< Mandamus: I think the prophecies point to a point in time BEFORE destruction we can change to prevent the troubles. And they talk of what we will be doing to lead us to the brink, and what we may do to correct our errors and not have the destruction. But I think our attachments to big houses and money will be our downfall.

Mandamus< the_Muse: Yes, I can agree with you on greed and the other deadly sins, but it's my take that the Bible is pretty definitive as to the fate of the world and it's inhabitants. But of course I could be wrong in my interpretations. After all, if we were all right in our views, we wouldn't be here at this forum now.

Ben< ALL: In answer to my last question, I'm NOT going to chase after some prophet or guru or spirit who tells me to sell everything and put on a white dress and sit on a hill, or pop something terminal as the price of boarding a spaceship.

Tahara< Ben: I don't think that many people would, but that doesn't leave out saving back some extra food, water, etc., in case.

Yopo< I tend to suspect many "prophets" are actually seeking to use their words as a means to personal power -- and be particularly suspicious if they are also marketing those white dresses. *LOL*

Zarastan< Yopo: LOL! Put on your RED DRESS mama!

windy< Unlike some who think that in ascending to a higher world we will leave our physical selves behind, I think that though this may be true for some who choose to leave the wheel of lives, for others they will be the ancestors of the next world, the parents so to speak of the beginning of civilization, culture, etc. They will still be in a material place, though one that vibrates at a higher frequency than the one we currently live in.

Tahara< windy: Very true.

Polgara< I recently started studying, and teaching, a philosophy which suggests that the purpose of those in power is to keep all those beneath them in the hierarchy at constant battle with one another so that no one ever really takes a close look at what those in power are doing. The more I watch the news, the older I get, the more I see the wisdom in this, and the more I dedicate myself to peace and the freedom of speech and the rights of the individual to live free, acceptance, regardless of the color of skin and the diversity of ideas, which is why I feel so grateful for SpiritWebChat!

Stargazzer< Polgara: I believe in God. But I agree with you about those in power. There seems to be an evil out there (mainly those in power), an evil that is intelligent and organized and working very hard at destroying peoples lives.

Polgara< Stargazzer: I was just saying to someone else that I don't really even think it's all done consciously, but it's all motivated by FEAR. What would the powers that be do if they suddenly not only had to be accountable to us, but had to relate to us ALL as equals?

Stargazzer< Good question, Polgara!

the_Muse< Polgara: Girl, I agree with you. I could tell you some sources for more on the subject of the manipulation of the masses... whew!

Polgara< Yes, Muse, I'll bet you could! Often our views and quotes are so close, you can tell we've read some of the same people! I'd give anything to meet Starhawk, the author, just once in my life!

the_Muse< I think we could stop the end of the age from being a destruction by showing we have learned the lesson of the age.

Sea-Goat< the_Muse: Call me a pessimist, but I think some destruction is inevitable. The human race as a whole is too attached to the crystallized state the world is in (you know, holding onto their money, big houses, etc.) and they're going to be very upset when things REALLY start to change.

the_Muse< Sea-Goat: It is inevitable as long as we cherish the works of man's hands more than the Earth. Which is basically the point you have made. We will not change until there is a destruction.

Tahara< Sea-Goat: That is why there has been a big movement in homesteading for the last 30+ years, leaving the big cities and going back to nature (with some of the conveniences of the modern world, but they are not necessities).

the_Muse< I think the key to survival is to be prepared to live at least one year without money.

Ben< the_Muse: Living one year without money is possible. Living one year without electricity is problematical, and for city folks, impossible. Big cities have about three days supply of food and four of gasoline.

FRAML< the_Muse: And after that year? Do we go back to work? During the year do we live off stored food or our own garden and hunting and gathering? Where do I do that here in Washington DC? (Hunting and gathering are crimes here.)

Zarastan< FRAML: Good point. I think the law takes a dim view of such things here, too, even in rural Oregon. The technical term for it is "looting". Hahaha!

Awenydd< Ben: That is a good point. I used to think "So what! No electricity, no food, no problem; we just start living like our ancestors." Except that we would run out of animals to hunt pretty quick nowadays with the overpopulation of humans and under-population of animals. Farmers would again rise high in the communities, because so few people nowadays can even grow grass, much less food to survive on.

Tahara< "If you put one person in a ripe garden with a freshened cow most people now days would starve to death." A saying I have grown up with.

the_Muse< Ben: What did we earthlings do to survive before money? LOL. The use of solar power and alternate power is feasible for those in outlying areas. There is a prophecy at the beginning of Isaiah that says, "Woe unto them who join house to house and field to field till there be no place for man to be alone in the midst of the Earth." I think this relates both to our need to commune with nature and also to the fact that such housing makes us a burden and dependent on merchants instead of the planet.

FRAML< the_Muse: And how will we repair the solar cells after the production base is gone? Windmills driving generators, until the generators wear out.

Awenydd< Hold on folks, this is getting out of hand. Think for a minute, FRAML, if you lost your job today, and could not find another job in the whole world doing what you did before, would you not learn a new trade? If we had to rely on alternative sources of power, don't you think some of us would learn how to maintain or progress that field? Also, unless all the books and documents are destroyed, it is only a matter of time before we go back to them to learn about all this technology we have already discovered. So long as there are people, and the basic needs for life, we as a race will survive. How well depends on the motivation. And let me tell you, if you have come to rely on a telephone, then lose it, you would find a way to get it back, or a suitable alternative, to be sure.

the_Muse< FRAML: Have you ever heard of Orgone? There are many other and better energy sources that have been better suppressed than those two. But I dare say any decent shade-tree mechanic can fix a windmill and solar collectors are also way simple. I can drive my horse around a spring drive to wind it for an hour and power my home. If I could get the profit minded gas and electric to let go their strangle hold on our planet's health and resources. The greed of such men, that they suppress clean free energy to make wealth of polluting ones. It is incredible.

milk< the_Muse: Were you looking to discuss energy in the context of Orgone?

FRAML< the_Muse: Orgone? Nope, unless it is the state where Zarastan lives. *grin* But then your horse provides fertilizer for some and pollution for others. (Horses in DC have to wear diapers, no kidding)

Zarastan< FRAML: I knew we were spelling it wrong! Shoot! hahaha!

the_Muse< FRAML: My horses do not provide enough manure for my needs. Their apples are super-clean-burning in a pellet stove. And perfect for the garden and for growing earth worms. Just can't get enough of it. *smile*

grizzly< the_Muse: Glad to see there is another horse person in the crowd. I also have horses.

Tahara< grizzly: You and the_Muse aren't the only horse people! *smile*

grizzly< Tahara: Glad to see it.

Polgara< I am a horse person, too!

grizzly< We must be able to fend for ourselves and live off the land, by hunting and raising a garden. I do hunt, and I use the meat, and I get the hide tanned to leather. I also used to have a farm a few years ago, and my family were almost self-sufficient. We raised our own meat, and we had a large garden. Not many people these days are willing to go through the process any more. They all feel it is easier to just run down to the corner store and buy it off the shelf.

FRAML< grizzly: Yes, and at that level of self-sufficiency, the great masses of people will die off. No longer will a single farmer be able to feed 23 people (the current statistic, I believe). That is definitely an "end time."

Tahara< grizzly: Not many people even wish to try.

grizzly< Tahara: Also, not many people know how!

Tahara< grizzly: Yes, I know that. If I could only have a number for the amount of people who have asked me how to plant a seed!

grizzly< If anyone wants to learn, my profession is agriculture, and I instruct farmers how to produce the food that feeds us.

Rainbowbird< grizzly: Not being able doesn't mean being unwilling.

grizzly< Rainbowbird: You are right. Some people live in cities and are not able to have gardens and such.

Rainbowbird< grizzly: Thanks for seeing my point. Not some people, but many.

grizzly< Rainbowbird: True again, for the majority of the population live in the cities. But I for one will try my best to stay out of them. For me it is too confined there. I enjoy the freedom of the rural setting.

Rainbowbird< grizzly: Many rainbows for you.

SLIDER< grizzly: That's a good point about living self sufficient. I have done the same in the past. But remember what happened after and during the civil war in the south: most self-sufficient people were robbed or killed for what they had. So who wins?

grizzly< SLIDER: That was then, and actually then no one won. The poor and meek will always get hurt, but in the Bible it says the meek will inherit the earth.

Polgara< SLIDER: But I think that's the old "propaganda train" at work. We can give in to the fear of what might happen, or we can reach out in love to our neighbors and come together in peace. If what Windy spoke of happened, and all reached out to one and other in kindness and compassion, what would there be to fear? We could all immediately pray, search for solutions, and work together, and there would be no need for panic. But if those in power could force a panic, then they win, don't they?

Stargazzer< Polgara: I wish everyone thought as you. What a beautiful place this world would be!

Polgara< Stargazzer: Each day I live, I keep hoping!

Tahara< SLIDER: That is why some people who are looking at this have already made contacts with families so they can all bond together and fight off those who wish to steal.

SLIDER< Tahara: I guess that throws out the ten commandments then (no puns intended). Look at all the karma we can build. I would also protect what I could if my family were at risk. *smile*

Tahara< SLIDER: It may, but our ancestors survived and believed they were going to heaven. Why would we be in any different situation unless we were the ones stealing, killing, etc.? Yes, family plays a big role.

the_Muse< Tahara: I think that banding together to fight those who are in need would be a wrong way to evolve, don't you agree? And in hard times, doesn't the best of humanity come out? The jerk down the street is the one risking his life to save babies from burning buildings. The one that seeks to save his life will lose it and that one willing to give his life will save it.

Tahara< the_Muse: But if those people are the ones trying to kill you and take what you need to survive, not asking for a little, but trying to TAKE everything, they are in the wrong, not those who are trying to keep themselves from being murdered.

the_Muse< Tahara: That is the sort of thinking that I feel is fear-based. I have faith that God will protect me, and I have faith that if God does not, then I will be quite happy to be out of it anyway. "The good man dies, and no one thinks that he has escaped the evil that is to come."

Tahara< the_Muse: I don't think that it is as much from fear as anticipation.

SLIDER< Tahara: Yes, I follow you on that. It's what Ben is trying to get across tonight, I think: if as a people we don't start learning to live and work together for a common good (this goes for the government of any peoples also), it will be a sad state of affairs if a problem such as a world catastrophic event should happen!

Tahara< Slider: Nicely put!

milk< Again ... I'm pleading ... how is the idea that we can "predict" our outcome helpful to us? How is it harmful?

Tahara< milk: If it comes true, you're prepared. If it doesn't, at least you spent the time to think about what you would do if there wasn't the modern technologies of today to depend upon.

Lor< milk: Perhaps the idea that we can "predict" our outcome can be helpful to us if we do not go totally into a panic and can just learn the lessons that we are here for. Doesn't the concept of a sudden catastrophe just put a little more emphasis on getting on with reason we have incarnated this time?

Stargazzer< I will just put all my trust in the LORD, and not worry about it.

FRAML< ALL: Perhaps, as a friend of mine said, we karmically realize that we have never had it so good. Thus we inwardly realize that we are living in a technologically fragile time. Let electricity go "poof" and we are back to the 18th century literally overnight, with very few of the survival skills people had then.

Awenydd< FRAML: So very true, and I didn't realize it until I caught part of a movie on HBO last month. (Can't remember the name.) It was in California, Los Angeles maybe, I don't recall, but they lost power for several days, and something so simple brought them back into the dark ages... literally.

Yopo< Awenydd: I think you've just hinted at the prophesy most likely to come to pass: what plain ol' common sense tells us about the consequence of the "growth without end" mentality. Humanity forgets that it is part of a planetary web of life and spirit, and seeks to dominate and control rather than to coexist within limits. One can count off the scenarios of disaster on one's fingers, but the bottom line is that the Earth will reassert a necessary balance, more likely sooner than later. I have confidence that we will learn our lesson, but fear it will be a harsh teaching indeed.

Awenydd< The beauty of humanity is that we came into this world with nothing, not even enough hair or thick enough hide to keep us warm, yet we have survived so long. Reason? Exactly. We have advanced brains that allow us to reason, imagine, and adapt. Sure, many may die off, but the race will not be lost so long as the basic needs for life remain.

Ben< Awenydd: It would be a rough month or so if the lights went out, until the human population was reduced by about 90 percent through starvation and mutual violence.

Awenydd< Ben: I really don't think it would be as high as 90%. Certainly the initial shock would cause a high number, but not 90%, and not within a month. If that were the case, do you think our government would spend so much on nukes, and biological weapons? It would be so easy to send out a few tomahawks to a bunch of power plants to do the job.

[Ben< Awenydd: I wasn't talking about ways to put out the lights. My point is, if the lights go and stay out, the people packed into every city will be starving in just a few days. The human population will be reduced to a level that can sustain itself without electrical power or any technology that depends on electrical power.]

Ben< ALL: My over-all points for this series are: our life on earth is fragile; we humans are highly interdependent now; if we don't continue to co-operate, the planet will only support about 10 percent of the present population, which would really slow down the reincarnation cycle (long waiting lines for a human birth). And in any event, each of us will have to leave our physical body sooner or later, so we may as well be prepared for that which is certain.

Zarastan< Thanks for your view on "what it all means", Ben. One perspective for sure.

Polgara< Thank you, Ben!

Rainbowbird< Ben: The idea that the cycle of reincarnation is slowing down, is one I can't follow. Because there are other planets to go to and there is life without physical manifestation.

Ben< Rainbowbird: Yes, there are other places to live. I was speaking of incarnate life as a human on this planet. The key to the survival of the human race has been mutual support and co-operation within groups, however achieved.

Rainbowbird< Ben: I fully agree on that point. But will those qualities get lost just because of predictions? And even the possible outcome of predictions? In all predictions the human race will survive as such. With or without us. Who can tell? I wait for the dream to tell me how to prepare if the time comes. Or let go if letting go is required. We have many years left.

Yopo< Ben: I don't mean to sound gloomy, but I wonder if we can maintain what we have, even in the unlikely event we can decide to cooperate. We may already have passed some point of no return. Our present population levels already have overburdened the environment's carrying capacity.

[Ben< Yopo: Perhaps. We don't really know the population carrying capacity of this planet, but we know it varies by degree of cooperation and level of technology.]

Ben< /topic Continued discussion of apocalypse

Sea-Goat< Has anyone in here ever read "Survival Into The 21st Century" by Viktoras Kulvinskas? It is quite the prophetic work, by a deeply spiritual man who is a great planetary healer (and yet seems to have been through all the common difficulties of being an ordinary human). Right now I'll just give a brief review of it, in hope that I get somebody (anybody) interested in it. The book starts by describing the upcoming APOCALYPSE as an ecological HEALING process that the Earth will perform on herself. "The dramatic end to this age will come as a result of one or several of the many triggering mechanisms which we have built into our national life-styles. It could be depression, energy failure, epidemic, war, famine, earthquake, ecological disasters." (p. 10) Also, "Spaceship Earth is running out of energy and food. There are 3 and 1/2 billion people on the earth now (1975) and the population grows 2 percent annually. Although India increased its crops of food grain, it also increased it's population. Some fantasize that although land agriculture cannot possibly take care of our food needs, we still have endless resources in the sea which can be tapped so that we can populate the earth until people are jammed like sardines in a can. They forget that the oceans are civilization's cesspools." (p. 11) "Survival" talks about how we poison our bodies with what we eat and our minds and souls with our lifestyles. It talks about a pretty much inevitable apocalypse in which many human beings will experience "healing through suffering" and it gives guidelines (both nutritional and spiritual) on how to equip oneself to be one of the very few (probably less than 10% of the population) who will survive the Apocalypse, and also about what to do after it happens. Reading this amazing book was a life-changing experience I will cherish forever. Thanks to anyone who took the time to read my post, and if I have gotten even ONE person to at least check out "Survival", then I can really pat myself on the back!

windy< As for preparing for the new world, I have learned a great deal about the medicinal and health properties of foods and herbs and about growing things. I have sewing skills, and I am saving certain items like dark glass bottles -- good glass bottles in general, really -- and other useful items that may not be readily available for awhile. I also have lots of books, especially children's books and things for children to do. Until then I have the same plan as FRAML -- do my best to live according to Jesus' two commandments: God above all things and love one another. I try not to preach, and hope to teach through example.

Tahara< windy: Sounds like you have given this some real thought. Good for you! If it doesn't happen, you learned some good skills, have some books, and other useful materials. If it does, you'll be better off than most. *smile*

Polgara< This discussion has certainly changed for me since it started tonight. I was reading this as we went along, discussing all the doomsday stuff, and I kept fighting off the urge to weep. I was not enjoying this like I usually do. Most of that is gone now, and this feels so much more positive to me. I am glad. LOL!

Yopo< Polgara (*smile*): I feel like weeping every time I see a woods bulldozed down to make room for a new strip mall. Values seem to have gotten all twisted around. But the things folks say here often put a smile back on my face.

Polgara< Yes, Yopo, I agree! I harvest wild mushrooms and wild produce with my family's business. We NEED the woods to produce! Whenever they clear-cut for the pulp mills I feel just sick inside!

windy< Polgara, Tahara: Thank you for your comments. Indeed, I have been working on this for a long time now ... over 20 years.

the_Muse< Windy: You can sew? You can come stay with me. I can train and shoe horses, and plan to get a large wagon so will not need gas. And it is easy to store a couple year's worth of hay. I already have the barn. *smile*

windy< the_Muse: re: sewing comment: *very big grin*

milk< I am really concerned about the tone of "elitism" around survival coming from those who believe that their way is the way that will overcome. If there is belief in a particular "spirituality" then those will survive and those deemed politically or religiously incorrect by this mind frame will not make it? This is preposterous! Does the term "spiritual materialism" ring a bell?

FRAML< milk: I seek no "religious elitism". Mine is a spiritual orientation that is not desirous of political power in this existence.

milk< FRAML: You do not have to be desirous of "political power" to misuse the issue of spirituality. What I'm suggesting is that at any point where a spiritual knowledge is used or believed to be capable of being used to separate one's fate from another's based on choices made, that one is falling dangerously close to using the spiritual agenda to feed the ego. And I was by no means addressing this to you personally; I was simply saying that it is best to be warned against the concept that believes knowledge of a condition will save anyone!

Polgara< Good point, Milk!

milk< Why is "enlightenment" a desirable state? Particularly in the vernacular of it separating you from your neighbor? How is this attaining the goal of moving the population towards understanding it's interconnectedness to all of life?

Lor< milk: To me "enlightenment" in the vernacular of it separating you from our neighbors is NOT enlightenment. To force sharing everything with everyone else really does not help them or us!

SpiritWker< milk: Enlightenment is progression.

milk< SpiritWker: Enlightenment is progression in the theoretical sense, but I am looking to differentiate the sense of individual enlightenment ("lighting up") from the enlightenment used by some to separate themselves from others. In some religious contexts, the term enlightenment is a hierarchical position used to denote the sense of ascension and the devaluation of the physical reality. Do you see what I'm trying to add to the discussion?

Lor< milk: Perhaps our spiritual purpose is "spelt out" and exemplified in terms of deeds committed, if those deeds are merely the outcome of our inner personal purposes. Good deeds by themselves for selfish reasons do not meet the test, however. It IS important what we think, how we think, when we think, and why we think it -- one way or the other!

the_Muse< Lor: "Good deeds by themselves for selfish reasons do not meet the test." I think that is the whole reason for the apocalypse! The apocalypse means the end of our ignorance. And then it will be our chance to prove just how much we mean our pretty words. Will you go ahead and share the little you have? Or will you kill to have another week of food? Tough test, but an important one, don't you think?

milk< Lor: Are you suggesting that the spiritual purpose can be spelt out in terms of deeds committed?

Lor< milk: If someone gets his/her inner purposes straight, can beneficial action be far behind if they care at all for anyone but themselves? The point is that it is not the action that is important, but the inner motivations of the type of person one becomes that naturally lead to beneficial actions that count -- anyway that's how I see it. I doubt that a hermit that meditates, etc., for all of his/her life completes his/her primary purpose. I suspect that our goal is to learn how to live with each other and God amicably/harmoniously in heaven.

the_Muse< Lor: Good point. And a lovely goal to strive for.

milk< Lor: Yes, but you were suggesting that we might be on the planet to learn particular lessons and that these lessons necessitated particular actions. I was suggesting that the spiritual purposes that placed us here, if in fact incarnation is motivated by such means, are perhaps not dependent on actions at all. And I did understand your distinction between a heart connected action and one that isn't, yet it seems important to understand that "doing" is not the only way to satisfy one's evolution.

Lor< I believe that God does care for and about us, and that he cares that we care for others. Perhaps it is not appropriate for us to play god and be so concerned about carrying on the traditions. If they are important, then God will try to work it out for the best. If we are prepared to die peacefully, even if traumatically, then it should not really matter a lot if and when we die, should it?

milk< Lor: Yes, I agree that to align oneself with inner purpose and then to move in the world is the point.

FRAML< milk: Am I to understand you to say that if I seek to follow a spiritual path to gain eternal life for my soul, I am on a ego trip that is dangerous to others? Even if I do not "beat others over their head with the 'righteousness' of my belief?"

milk< FRAML: No, you are always going to pursue your personal belief as being the closest and most heartfelt path to your own growth. What I was suggesting is that at the point when people start believing that the path they have chosen is the "correct" one and that anyone who does not follow that mind set will be met with the "end" or will "not ascend" or "go into the next millennium" with the adequate tools, these ideas are not fruitful. And that is why I do not buy the idea that we can know what is to come as a delineation of what the changes will bring, even though I do wholeheartedly agree that this IS a time of change. I just don't agree with any description of the times. This is a personal journey. Cross-culturally, our peoples believe in the change, and the nature of reality is mutable enough to contain a myriad of possibilities for our people. What is the insistence on describing events? if not to feed others our personal beliefs? Change, yes ... descriptions of change, hmmm. Beware the spelling out of the future. Align yourselves with the future you want to experience. Let the theories and prophecies illicit a feeling, and let this feeling be cleared, making way for your real truth. Act with courage and move forward from your heart. Thoughts are beings that move into the light. Create the thought you want feeding the image of our world.

FRAML< milk: I guess we will need to agree to disagree. I believe we are saying different things with the same words. I believe that my path is the right one for me. That does not require you to accept it for yourself, or for me to force or demand that you adopt it for your own course. I'll tell you what I believe and why. I shall not force it upon you or others, and all I ask is for you to treat me the same.

milk< FRAML: Hold on to your ideas and beliefs. I will be comforted in this. I discussed my beliefs as separate entities. In this we can always agree.

Zarastan< My parents were survivalists during the Bay of Pigs and the 1960's. I have heard this discussion AD NAUSEAM over the dinner table night after night after decade. Having read every single doomsday novel and discussed this until a definite shade of BLUE, my conclusion is: I'm done with wrangling about how well our "skills" equip us to survive a planetary disaster. The bottom line is, NOTHING prepares us for such a thing except a peaceful state of mind. If you survive it, you'll be able to cope without going mad. If you don't survive it, you'll be at peace on the way out. My point of view.

windy< One last comment before I leave (have to rise early tomorrow). For what its worth: when I was about seven, as I drifted off to sleep, God used to speak to me about needing people to help rebuild the world after a series of changes. The place God would take us to train us for this upcoming task looked basically like a town with farmland all around it. Goodnight all, pleasant journeys. Be not afeared of the changes when they come if your heart is filled with love and you are ready to love anyone and anything that you meet in the new world.

FRAML< Good night to all departing: remember to count your blessings before you sleep.

Yopo< FRAML: Or count your blessings, before your sheep. *LOL* You know, I've heard there is more forest in Indiana now than 100 years ago when the whole durn place was clear-cut and drained to make wall-to-wall farmland. So maybe there has been a kind of progress here after all.