09. Understanding ETs
Spiritual Web Chat
Session 0: Fri 13 Mar 1998

[The 98-03-13 transcript is a chatroom discussion of this topic.]

mutato< Since this chatroom covers UFO's, I'd just like to say that the recent video tape broadcast on TV regarding a Lake County family's UFO abduction was a hoax. Boy, they did a good job with those lights though, didn't they? Just so you know where this info comes from: See page 6 of the March/April issue of UFO Magazine. Maybe this is old news to all of you (can't tell because it's pretty vacant in here), but "In Brief" states that the video was created by our be-boppin bro' Dick Clark Productions.

Northlight< Still some hoaxes going on. Why do they do that? and why is it always the hoaxes that get TV time?

Mutato< It's a shame, isn't it, Northlight? Seems like debunking UFO's or showing us how gullible we can be was their purpose.

Northlight< Yes, it is the same story all over, everything is hoax.

Mutato< Seems like, if it's a true story, those people keep it to themselves and those close to them so they don't get made fun of. So we never get to know for sure, unless we have it happen to us.

Northlight< It's only from Mexico we get some nice evidence.

Mutato< I've had some weird experiences with UFO's in the past, and am presently looking to research some more.

Northlight< I am having them now, last weekend with friends at a cottage.

Northlight< What kind of experiences?

Mutato< Those lights over Phoenix, Arizona, were pretty blatant a few years back. A lot of folks saw them. Not much was said after they showed us the "proof." I only know that they "flew" down Scottsdale Road. I used to work for Motorola TEO, and they were building a secret site over 20 feet into the ground. Many people said it was a secret military operation. Didn't have the kind of security clearance to check it out, though. Maybe the UFO's were drawn to it, since the plant is right on Scottsdale Road.

Northlight< Mutato: I've read that it was a military test, but that there also was a ship from the Arcturians present!

Mutato< My most memorable experience happened quite a while ago. I was really into UFO's then. I kept meditating for contact. Then one day, while I was in the kitchen (I lived in a very rural area), my friends who were visiting came running in the house yelling and looking totally panicked, screaming for me to come outside because there was a silver UFO hovering over the house! They weren't lying, but when I ran out it had already disappeared, so I was disappointed that I didn't get to see it.

Northlight< Mutato: To my knowledge, the ET's are very interested in military installations.

Mutato< What kind of experiences are you having at the cottage?

Northlight< I had response to a request last weekend.

Mutato< Was it scary? Did you get to see anything?

Northlight< I had just been giving some healing to some friends, when I felt that I should go outside. I then asked for a greeting and they did by flashes of bright light three times. Not scary, nice. It felt good.

Mutato< Perhaps they are also drawn to those with psychic ability, because it may be easier to communicate.

Northlight< I have also seen 7 ships in formation, where they gave me a signal by flashes of light, on request, to me and my wife, and some other people also saw it. I know who they are. We have been in contact for some years now

Mutato< I just hope that all those stories I hear about genetic experiments aren't true, and perhaps the human race is ready (or at least some of us are) to make physical contact that is not memory-erased. If you contact them, maybe you can ask about their purpose here? Maybe you could ask them to contact me. I would greatly appreciate the opportunity to finally meet the ones I've felt have been around for so long, and to know that it wasn't all in my mind.

Northlight< We are becoming a galactic human again, what has been forgotten shall be restored. I've felt their presence many times, and also seen one of them.

Mutato< Thank you for chatting about this very important subject. I'm glad that you've made contact, and it's O.K. Blessings to you and your wife. Will return to this site more often to get a better perspective.

[Much chat has been deleted here]

Jess< /topic Understanding Extraterrestrials

Ben< Jess: Hi. What did you want to say about ET's?

Jess< Ben: Today, on a talk show I watched, there were some people sharing the experiences they have had with ET's, and when the talk show host asked how many in the audience believed their stories, only a couple of hands were raised. I was so disappointed. The guests had good insights, speaking of meeting ET's on other planes while asleep in the physical, and one guest even mentioned the use of third-eye viewing and had an audience member try it. Unfortunately, he was not able to see her face change. I was excited because I felt that perhaps some of these guests could share something to alter the mass consciousness of the audience, but they didn't seem to have much success.

Ben< Jess: I'm a bit surprised that more didn't believe what the guests said.

Jess< Ben: I was surprised as well, and like I said before, it made me incredibly frustrated. There was even one scientist there who stated simply that "aliens do not exist, and are the product of highly imaginative people." This narrow view point makes me want to scream sometimes.

Moondreams< Jess: You must understand, talk shows have become more of an amusement park for people in the audience than a true-to-life drama of real stories. There is so much publicity now of ET's that it has worn on everyone. Few take it seriously anymore.

Ben< Moondreams: Maybe the lack of response was because they were talking about meeting on astral trips. Or is the interest in UFO's also waning?

Jess< Moondreams: Yes, I understand that, but in this particular case, the people there seemed to have a good understanding of ET's and genuine insights, and that is why I was surprised they couldn't reach more people: i.e., they weren't talking of little green men or something absurd.

Moondreams< I see what you mean. I don't believe in little green men theories or stories. I do believe that a presence is here trying to move us into a more spiritual life stance rather than do experiments on us all. I truly wish, like you do, that the human population in general would look at the mounting evidence available (there is so much there, too), and take a serious look at how it affects our lives, in every way.

Jess< Moondreams: Yes, well, I even look a step beyond that, to where we realize our own ET forms on other planes and realize that this physical reality is really only a small part in the entire picture.

Moondreams< Ben, Jess: Have any of you ever followed the stories of Whitley Streiber?

Jess< Moondreams: Hmm, yes, I have heard of him and his books, but I haven't read them. I think he talks of his experiences with Zetas?

Moondreams< I first became interested in ET's by reading Whitley's accounts in "Communion". It changed my way of thinking forever. Now he is speaking of Secret Schools where they taught children Time Travel to remember in the future. Very heady stuff.

Jess< Moondreams: Time travel: well, that is another interesting topic altogether.

Ben< Jess: Have you had personal ET experience?

Jess< Ben: Good question! Yes, I have had personal experience with ET's and seen ET forms of other humans. In most recent times, my conscious recollection of ET experiences has been focused upon interaction with Zetas in the astral.

Ben< Jess: Okay. It makes a difference whether we're talking about UFO drivers (incarnate ET's) or astral beings of one sort or another (discarnate ET's).

Jess< Ben: Yes, it does make a difference if they choose to come into physical or not. We may discuss either one, if you like.

Roanna< Hi all... I think as long as the aliens are in some peoples' dreams, that is no problem. It's the physical ones that I would worry about.

Jess< Ben: Some astral beings, or those of higher planes, may also choose to incarnate physically.

Moondreams< I know of only the ones in the physical (not personally). Not much study at all about astral.

Jess< Ben: Do you have personal experience with physical ET's?

Ben< Jess: No, not like "up close and personal" with physical ET's. Some UFO-sightings on radar. Many first-person reports (I was stationed at Roswell ten years after that incident, and at Pease AFB near the incidents at Exeter, NH. Also at Alamogordo, NM, in Air Force Research). And I've had a lot of experience with discarnates, ET's and otherwise.

Jess< Ben: Yes, I can imagine you do have a lot of experience with discarnates. I also do not have personal experience with physical ET's. I am not sure why not.

Moondreams< Ben: Out of curiosity, did you see any evidence yourself of a conspiracy cover up about the Government and ET's?

Ben< Moondreams: Yes, there is evidence of cover-up.

Moondreams< Can you give specifics about what they may be hiding?

Jess< Ben: I guess the discarnates are of more interest to me.

SpiritWker< I'm pretty new to this stuff, but I have my reasons to believe that what you say is true.

Moondreams< SpiritWker: Tell us what has made you believe in ET's.

SpiritWker< Well, if I tell you, you may think I'm a little off the deep end. *LOL*

Jess< SpiritWker: It can't be any worse than what I just said! Go ahead! Jump!

SpiritWker< I'll try to make it short. When I was little, my father used to say he was from somewhere else. Didn't think much of it then. My dad crossed over some years back, but I've had contact with him lately. He was telling me many things that are in the Pleiadian books, which I didn't read until a few weeks ago. So you can image how I felt when I starting reading them!

Jess< SpiritWker: The Pleiadian messages also strike a deep chord in me. It's great to recognize the truths they convey, isn't it?

SpiritWker< Jess: Yes, it is. I'm sure I was lead to those books to help me realize that I was not crazy after all. I believe my father has great knowledge that he is giving to me. It makes me feel very good, but I feel like I want to understand the whole thing all at one time, not one piece at a time. Does this make sense to you?

Jess< SpiritWker: Yes, well, in a sense, you do understand the whole thing completely, but only pieces of your own understanding may filter into your conscious mind. In other words, I share your frustration with what the mind may comprehend. I also feel cut off from my own knowing, and in the dark at times, but I guess that is necessary in order to play the game of physicality.

Moondreams< Ben: What is your insight into ET's? (By the way, I truly like the classes held on Saturday nights. The one on miracles was great.)

Ben< Moondreams: Thanks. I enjoy the classes, too. Have any of you read "The Interrupted Journey" (the story of Betty and Barney Hill)?

Moondreams< Yes, Ben, and I heard a taped session of Betty under hypnosis. It scared the daylights out of me. I have read plenty on the incident at Roswell also. Good stuff for the mind to ponder.

Ben< Moondreams: I was a friend of Betty and Barney's. (I'm mentioned in the book). My wife and I heard the tapes they made under hypnosis with Dr. Simon, on the day he gave them the tapes, because they didn't want to listen to the tapes alone.

Moondreams< Ben: Are you serious? I mean ... of course you are ... that blows my mind. What can you tell of that experience being there with them?

Ben< Moondreams: At the point on the tape where Barney is looking at the ship through binoculars, and just before he screamed and ran (while re-living it under hypnosis), the physical Barney jumped up, ran out in the kitchen, and vomited in the sink. I thought that would be pretty hard to fake.

Moondreams< I never doubted the story for a second after hearing those tapes!

Roanna< Yikes, Ben!

Moondreams< Roanna: Good point. A lot of us are just not ready for that kind of experience, like me!! *S*

Roanna< Hey, this is our Earth, not theirs. Besides, look what happened when the Europeans came to the new world. The last thing we need is intergalactic small pox.

SpiritWker< Roanna: I don't think you have to worry about that. I'm sure they are over small pox by now.

Roanna< So were the Europeans, by and large, and TB. They had lived with the diseases for thousands of years and had some immunity (not total). The Indians didn't. All it takes is a few aliens carrying their nasty microbes. Ever read the Andromeda Strain? They were so scared they used to stick the Apollo Astronauts in an isolation chamber every time they came back from the moon.

Moondreams< Roanna: It's the aliens that need to worry about our diseases!

Roanna< It's a good thing that the distance between worlds is light years.

SpiritWker< Roanna: Why do you worry about what diseases they can bring to us? I trust they are past the point in time where they carry such germs with them. I believe we need to look around us just to see where the worst of the diseases are coming from.

Roanna< Microbes always feed on those at the top of the food chain. My cat is recovering from surgery and gets antibiotics twice a day. The flesh is heir to ills. Entropy rules.

Buttonpusher< Greetings! Looks like I came at a very interesting time!

Moondreams< Greetings, Buttonpusher. Give us some info and feedback.

Buttonpusher< Roanna: Distance has no meaning for them! And not all physical encounters need be unpleasant ones.

Buttonpusher< Moondreams: What info are you looking for?

Moondreams< Anything in general, Buttonpusher. I was really inviting you to the chat. But would really like some explanations about the Pleiadians and such. I only understand the UFO phenomena and the contact by the so called "visitors".

Buttonpusher< Moondreams: Well, I classify them all as visitors. Are you referring to the greys when you use the term visitors? And what is it about the Pleiadians that interests you, if I may ask? What about other groups? Do you know that we are at this time being visited by 89 different ET races?

Moondreams< Buttonpusher: Yes, I am referring to the greys, but others as well. I see I haven't done my homework in a while.

Ben< Jess: Concerning your earlier comment, "I guess the discarnates are of more interest to me" -- the main question (for me) concerning any beings (incarnate or discarnate) is, are they from *higher* astral levels? or from the earth-plane (mid-astral twilight)? or from the lower astral?

Jess< Ben: I love your questions (he he... which are more like statements). Well, I share your concerns, and I guess it is important to differentiate in each experience. The trouble is that sometimes our own fears interfere with this differentiation. I admit, that last astral surgery I had was rather bothersome.

SpiritWker< Jess: Great way of putting it. I too feel this. I trust in time I will understand much more. Can any of you answer a question for me please? Do you understand the multidimensionality that they are talking about?

Buttonpusher< SpiritWker: I came in late, obviously. Can you elaborate on your question please? Multidimensionality that who is talking about?

Jess< SpiritWker: Yes, we are all multidimensional beings. In other words, part of us is having a physical experience right now, while another part is manifested as Pleiadian. There are countless realities that we take part in, but are not always conscious of.

Roanna< Ah... I don't buy that. I think it's one place at a time in chronological order, at least for me. One place at a time is enough to worry about. Before has happened, now is now, and the future's uncertain, but the end is always near, as the Doors used to sing.

Jess< Roanna: We are talking beyond linearity and states of consciousness in the physical.

Buttonpusher< Jess: OK, now I understand that question, and you are right. Not only are we here but we are many other places at once! Naturally we are focused here at this time, but all time is present; therefore, we are also in other dimensions of life as well, and those parts of us are focused there. Sometimes these connect or overlap and info comes in dreams or visions or for some actual physical interaction with ourselves in these other dimensions!

SpiritWker< Buttonpusher: Yes, very good. I am very new to all of this, and I am trying to understand.

Jess< Buttonpusher: Well said!

SpiritWker< Jess: Is there going to be a time when we are fully aware of all of the dimensions, and if so, how?

Jess< SpiritWker: I feel that we are fully aware, but limited in the physical. For me, spirituality is bringing consciousness of other planes into the physical, and I do feel it is possible to integrate all of our levels of awareness into one, but each person will attain this at their own pace, as they work through the issues they came to the physical to deal with. So, I guess the key is grounding oneself while staying connected to other realms.

SpiritWker< Jess: Yes, I agree, its just getting to that point that is going to make me crazy. *LOL* I am working on trying to ground myself better.

Buttonpusher< SpiritWker: The time will come when earth enters into a new level of vibrations and this will propel us into a higher dimensional frequency. At that time we will become aware of these other dimensions in a fuller understanding, and of course, when we leave the physical plane all of this is known to us. Why is it not now? Because in order for us to have free will, we have to be able to learn something, no? If we know these things, then what is there to learn and where would free will come in?

SpiritWker< Buttonpusher: Yes, I understand, but I'm very impatient at times. I've learned so much in the last year that I feel like I'm on the fast track. And of course, I want to know it all. At times I feel like a child again.

Buttonpusher< SpiritWker: We will never "know it all". Life is infinite and eternal, and to know all would make it finite, and this is not possible. We will never know all or experience all. It is constant state of becoming something else, and something else again. I hope that came out right! LOL What I mean is that there is no beginning and no end, so therefore you can never know all! It is always changing and becoming more!

mack< Hi! I don't want to butt into your conversation, but I'm from England, and you wouldn't believe the organization we've built up over the past few years. There are so many people who feel like there is something going to happen, and I'm not just talking about the abductees, but the rest of us (I'm a NDEr) as well. What do you think we're waiting for? because we feel it's going to happen very soon.

Moondreams< mack: In the words of Whitley Streiber, "Then they will come, whether we're ready or not. Some will be screaming in absolute terror and fear, and others will be crying for joy as the chains fall away."

Buttonpusher< mack: I hope what we are waiting for is the raising of the earth's vibrational frequency which would bring us into a higher dimension (from third to fourth) and this will raise our own vibrations as well!

Ben< SpiritWker: I have a simple starting-point for the topic of dimensions. I draw a horizontal line on a piece of paper -- that's the earth-plane, and the entire material universe, and the mid-astral twilight zone. Above that line are the upper astral levels. Below that line are the lower astral levels. Then I draw a vertical line: at the top is the Source of the Spirit-Light. At the bottom is the Outer Darkness. All I need to know about entities I can plot in that paradigm. If you like it, no charge. *smile*

Moondreams< Ben: Never thought of it that way. Thanks for the free info. *grin*

SpiritWker< Ben: *LOL* Very good. Glad no charge, it's a little hard to exchange here. *S*

Buttonpusher< Ben: There are many physical dimensions as well as non-physical ones. Your idea is good but very limited. There is so much more to it!

Jess< Buttonpusher: I believe Ben included those physical dimensions in the "material Universe".

Buttonpusher< Jess: I think I was reading the post of Ben too fast, trying to keep up! LOL

Ben< Buttonpusher: Perhaps there are many dimensions, but dimensions are best understood if they are orthogonal to each other (at right angles), and so it helps to get one or two dimensions straight before adding more.

Buttonpusher< Ben: Well, straight or not, they are there, and not only at right angles. Try parallel universes and many other dimensions in each, never ending!

Jess< Ben: What do you put in the mid-astral twilight zone?

Ben< Jess: Incarnate beings of all types and on all planets. Also, ghosts, guides, guardians, gods... and "little people" like elves and fairies and so forth.

Jess< Ben: Interesting that you included the elves and fairies. My husband Connor would include those in the underworld mainly. Wouldn't certain ghosts be in the lower astral?

Ben< Jess: Elves and fairies may be mischievous, but rarely malevolent. And yes, there are ghosts in the lower astral. I have helped rescue some of them.

Jess< Ben: These things make the lines a little bit fuzzy don't they? Regarding elves and fairies... Connor follows a Druidic path, and being in the underworld doesn't imply malevolence.

Ben< Jess: Yes, the lines *are* fuzzy. What I'm looking at is an infinitely divisible spiritual spectrum, not a three-layer cake. So it isn't a single step-jump from mischievous to malevolent, as my too-short response may have implied.

Jess< Ben: And wouldn't some guides be on the higher astral?

Ben< Jess: Yes, there are some guides in the upper astral levels, but a lot more guides or would-be guides are in the earth-plane (discarnate would-be gurus). There are good ghosts in the upper astral levels. And above them, as-angels and angels.

Jess< Ben: I see. I guess my focus is mainly on those upper level guides. Still, there is always some trickster who is hard to define, huh? Or we could get really confusing and start criss-crossing the lines and linking up parts of beings from one plane to another. What a mess that would make! I like the infinitely divisible cake.

Toad< I worked in a cemetery and I think I've seen ghosts.

Roanna< Lots of spirits hang out in cemeteries. My spirit friends call a grave (or tomb or urn niche) a cowhine (koweenay) meaning portion, as in the portion given by the living to the dead.

Toad< Thank you, Roanna.

Buttonpusher< Toad: The best time to see spirit in cemetery is within 3 days of the person's death.

Jess< Ben: Have you recalled any Zeta experiments on your astral body?

Ben< Jess: No one gets to implant anything in my spiritual body. I fight that, personally, forcefully, and with assistance. I have helped remove ET implants from others' spiritual bodies -- and asked the Lord to send an ambassador to the source of the implants. That was fun.

Buttonpusher< Ben: Now if we can only figure out how to remove physical implants without them being replaced. That would be nice!

Jess< Ben: It would be nice to discuss that topic further sometime.

Ben< Jess: Yes, it is an interesting topic.

SpiritWker< So, once we reach the next level, then what? My father has spoken of this, but I'm not sure I really understand.

Buttonpusher< SpiritWker: When we reach the so-called next level, we learn what it is we went there to learn, and move on to another, and on and on and on to infinity, and if we like we can come back here or go somewhere else.

Jess< Buttonpusher: It is rather hilarious isn't it?

Buttonpusher< Jess: Indeed it is, my friend!

Moondreams< I think Infinity strikes this groove...

Jess< It is past midnight here and my little one will be up early so I best be getting to bed, but I sure enjoyed this discussion. :-) Goodnight.

SpiritWker< Buttonpusher: Makes sense, but I trust I will always seek enlightenment where I can. I'm sure I drive my father (crossed over many years ago) crazy with all my questions also.

Buttonpusher< SpiritWker: We all will do this. It is natural to seek all the info we can, and also this is part of lessons. No question is a bad question! Remember though, that just because they have crossed over does not mean they have all the answers.

SpiritWker< Buttonpusher: It's funny that you say that. When I started out on this journey, I believed that the spirit world knew everything. Of course, they told me they didn't. *LOL* It was hard for me to understand at first, but they are very understanding and work very hard to help me along.

Buttonpusher< SpiritWker: They will continue their paths in their own quest for answers as well, and what they can tell you is just what their experiences are at the time of your communication with them. Remember, it never ends!

SpiritWker< Buttonpusher: They (spirit world) tell me that in time we as humans will no longer have to come back to earth, as a whole. We will move on to higher levels and other beings will inhabit earth. I really hopes this makes sense. I'm not too good at this.

Buttonpusher< SpiritWker: Yes, this is true. We won't HAVE to, but still there will be those who chose to, if only to help those here at that time, just like we have the walk-ins coming now from elsewhere to help us. OK? I for myself would probably come just to see what the differences are! differences from now and then!

wolfwoman< Ben: Pardon my stupidity, but what is Namaste?

Buttonpusher< wolfwoman: This means in short version "the god in me bows to the god in you". It is an ancient greeting in Sanskrit, which is a language spoken in India thousand years ago and still in use today.

Ben< wolfwoman: Namaste is a Sanskrit word that basically means "The spark of the divine in me greets the spark of the divine in you."

Buttonpusher< Has anyone here had any physical encounters with ET's?

Ben< Buttonpusher: Nope, not physical. Which doesn't exactly break my heart.

SpiritWker< Not me, but I trust I will some day.

Buttonpusher< SpiritWker: Careful what you wish for! LOL

SpiritWker< That is soooooooooo true. *LOL*

Buttonpusher< Some of these experiences can be wonderfully enlightening, as others can be extremely traumatic as well!

Ben< Buttonpusher: I wasn't thrilled with what the ET's did to Betty and Barney. They were both in shock, and had nightmares, and could hardly handle what they revealed under hypnosis.

SpiritWker< Ben: I trust that not all encounters are like that.

Buttonpusher< Ben: Yes, I am aware of this, but you must also be aware that all are not the same, just as all humans are not the same! There is positive and negative in all life! And life is extremely diverse and abundant in all dimensions.

Ben< Buttonpusher: Yes, I am aware that some discarnate ET's are upper astral beings, so I assume that some incarnate ET's may also be more kindly than indifferent to humans. I just haven't heard of any.

Buttonpusher< hmmm, I think I did not word that the way I really wanted to. Like really there is no positive or negative, it just is, and everything has a purpose even if we may not understand what that purpose is. I have had both very pleasant encounters and some very unpleasant ones, but have learned much from all of them and do not regret any of the experiences.

Ben< SpiritWker: As to encounters with physical ET's I have heard no credible (to me) first-person testimony to the contrary. Every encounter I have heard of was traumatic for the humans. The ET's were indifferent to the fact that humans are intelligent beings (well, at least some of them are. *smile*).

Buttonpusher< I don't particularly care too much for the implants, probes, mind scans, and other such things, but the actual interaction itself has taught me much about life and its diverse nature!

SpiritWker< Ben: Do you really think they feel indifferent to us? Maybe like we do to animals in a lab?

Ben< SpiritWker: Yes, that was precisely the impression I got from the ones that abducted Betty and Barney Hill, and from the (incarnate and discarnate) ET's I've found experimenting with humans.

Buttonpusher< Ben: Well, it appears that either you have limited info or you are selecting your info to confirm your own beliefs about what reality is or is not. There are many credible accounts of ET interaction that does not involve trauma! I for one can attest to this. As I said, I have had both, and have plenty of this info documented by mufon, cufos and other large groups who have been studying my particular case for many years now. Also, Linda Molten Howe has plenty of info on me and my encounters. I have plenty of physical evidence to back this up as well. Not only do I have very good photos of these craft up close and taken with Polaroid instant cameras which do not allow you to fudge the film negatives, I have implants that have been removed from my body and also lot of other things as well, some that I have no intention at this time to reveal to the public, but in time I will. How about enough material to do a DNA test, like hair samples and such, taken from an ET?

Ben< Buttonpusher: Test samples? Alright! Thanks for posting your experience and background. As I said, I have had no first-person testimony in support of the points you are making (and I'm very skeptical about anything I read). By the way, I don't select data to conform to my opinions. I test every bit of data for credibility before I accept it.

Buttonpusher< Ben: I did not mean this the way you think. We all select data this way. It is how our minds work. I learned this in my psychology courses when I was in nursing school. It is a matter of fact, and believe me, you can find things that will test true in all beliefs if you look hard enough. I did not mean anything negative by this comment, just to let you know to keep your mind open to other possibilities, that is all.

Ben< Buttonpusher: Peace, friend. No offense taken. *smile* I do know how the mind works. That's another reason why I am careful about what I do and do not accept -- and about what I hold in abeyance as untestable.

Buttonpusher< Ben: *smile* Good! I am glad to hear this! I hope that you keep looking and learning. There are many others who have had pleasant experiences who are not full of shit or crackpots, OK?

Sarah_D< Could someone please explain to me what it means? incarnate and discarnate ET's?

Buttonpusher< Incarnate means living in the physical, and discarnate means no longer living in the physical or never having lived in the physical.

Ben< Sarah_D: The way I use the term, "discarnate ET's" refers to ghosts that have lived in a physical ET body on another planet.

Sarah_D< So are you saying that there are ET beings that are discarnate? and how can this be? I'm sorry ... confused ... do not understand ... have never had the opportunity to talk to someone who has had the same experience ... forgive my ignorance.

Buttonpusher< Sarah_D: You have had experience with ET's?

Sarah_D< Buttonpusher: Not sure with whom, but yes, I did, and to this day I still do not understand why it happened.

Buttonpusher< Sarah_D: Would you care to share your experience? Do you remember? Can you describe them or their craft or surroundings in any detail? This will help me to possibly be able to identify them, as I have had many experiences of my own and also many years of research into this phenomena.

Sarah_D< Yes ... friendly creatures ... very nice to me. I was young. The craft I do not recall clearly, but I liked being there and did not want to leave. They were very loving creatures. The one thing that stood out in my mind after the incident was, I knew my parents would be angry that I had been missing. And it was related to me that they were "unenlightened" and it would be OK ... their anger would pass.

Buttonpusher< Sarah_D: Can you describe these beings? (physical description)

Sarah_D< Buttonpusher: They were small ... 3-4 feet tall at the most. Large eyes ... grey skin. Eyes were black in color. They spoke to me telepathically. They were incredibly loving to me. I still think about them and wonder if I will see them again. I almost feel like I miss them. Am I crazy?

*Roach< Sarah_D: Missing Greys? Crazy? Nah ... as long as the first action of another sentient isn't to take aim and open fire! *LOL*

Sarah_D< Roach: LOL! But truly, they were so kind to me. I was very young at the time and they opened up my mind, allowed me to see more than what I was able to understand at such a young age. They were the kindest beings I had ever experienced in my life at that time.

Buttonpusher< Sarah_D: Well it sounds like the greys, but then again there are several classifications of them. Do you remember what you were told, and have you had more than one encounter? Also, how old are you, if you do not mind my asking?

Sarah_D< Buttonpusher: I was five, and since I was so young, it was very hard and still is for me to recall what they said, but I left them with a clear feeling that this experience I had was not unusual and they have been with the human race for a very long time. Also, when they did things to me, I had no pain, but it caused me to become very ill after the encounter. I was hospitalized for 3 months, very sick. Doctors could never find out the problem. Parents flew in specialists from England even. And in time, the symptoms left, and I was well again.

Buttonpusher< Sarah_D: Well, the greys are very friendly to children, but as you get older they get interested in you for other reasons, so to say, and all experiences with them are not so pleasant.

Sarah_D< Buttonpusher: I see. I wondered about that, and still wonder, since I was so young, what they wanted with me. To this day I have never had another encounter, but I did witness a craft in New Mexico on a camping trip and wondered if I would see them again.

Buttonpusher< Sarah_D: You most likely have had other encounters that you do not remember. It is not common for them to initiate contact with someone and then stop it. Most often people who do not remember and think it over find out later that this is not the case, and that the contacts have continued through the years.

Ben< Buttonpusher: I'm back. I was bumped off-line. Yes, I'm still learning.

Buttonpusher< Ben: As we all are, my friend! VBS [Very Big Smile]

Sarah_D< Buttonpusher: I came in late and did not understand if you have had more than one encounter. And why do you think they want to see you?

Buttonpusher< Sarah_D: I have had many encounters starting from the age of 4 and with more than one race. Different ones have different agendas with us. So to answer your question, I would have to say they interact with me for different reasons. LOL

Sarah_D< Buttonpusher: I have thought about that, and sometimes have felt that maybe I have had more that one incident, but do not have memory, but my gut tells me otherwise. What frightens me though is my 2 children are terrified of UFO's. They have awoken many times in the night. One child especially recalls being taken on a ship and crying for me, but I was asleep in bed and could not help him.

Buttonpusher< Sarah_D: The greys interact generationally. Most likely if you have encounters, your parents or one of them did as well, and your children will, and their children and so on. I know that my mother is an abductee/experiencer as I am, as my children are, and now my grandson as well. They appear to be doing a cross-sectional intergenerational study and experiments with us.

Sarah_D< Buttonpusher: Are you cool with it? Are you not scared? Sometimes even though I found them friendly, it freaks me out. I think I am losing my mind over it.

Buttonpusher< Sarah_D: I have gotten past the fear. You can only live in fear for so long till you either lose the fear or lose your mind. I opted to lose the fear!

Sarah_D< Buttonpusher: The other question I have is: is it true their encounters are for reasons of creating a hybrid race? I feel that they are.

Buttonpusher< Sarah_D: The hybrid program is only part in the role, albeit a major part.

Sarah_D< Buttonpusher: So, in short, I am a lab rat? LOL

Buttonpusher< Sarah_D: Well not exactly, as lab rats do not gain anything from the experiences, yet we do!

Ben< Buttonpusher: Reminds me of the old movie about a behavioral psychologist who reincarnated as one of the rats in his lab. Couldn't convince his (former) associates that he was anything but a run-the-mill lab rat.

Buttonpusher< Ben: LOL

Sarah_D< Can you tell me, what is the major part? That I do not understand, and maybe it is again due to the fact that I was so young and have poor recall.

Buttonpusher< Sarah_D: It appears to me that the hybrid program plays a major role in all of this, not only with the greys, either. There are other groups doing the same thing, maybe just not the same way!

Sarah_D< Buttonpusher: May I ask what you have learned from all of this?

Buttonpusher< Sarah_D: I have learned not to judge the actions of others and that life is very abundant in its many diverse forms! LOL I have learned to accept my experiences as learning lessons and to love unconditionally all life as it was all created by the same and we are all the same!

Sarah_D< Yes, Buttonpusher... exactly what I have learned. Funny isn't it? I am so happy to talk to people who don't think I'm a nut-case. I found this place by accident and I really appreciate you talking to me. *S*

LEGS< A friend of my in-law's who was diagnosed with rheumatoid arthritis and was soooooooo crippled up could not stand living out in Arizona and was already approved for 100% disability (planning to go into an approved care environment), was taken one night ... totally rejuvenated ... no signs of the arthritis remained, and she is mad at them.

Buttonpusher< LEGS: This happens sometimes. It is fear that causes the anger!

Sarah_D< I think fear and anger are almost one in the same, in that they are both just a departure from love.

Buttonpusher< Sarah_D: No, they are not the same, but you are right about the rest!

Lyrian< Hello Buttonpusher: How are you? I am not sure I agree that fear causes anger. I thought a frustrated goal causes anger.

Buttonpusher< Lyrian: Believe me, fear causes anger in some. I am a prime example. I used to be so angry, and it was the fear that caused this anger. Once I lost the fear, the anger left as well.

Lyrian< Buttonpusher: I used to have a lot of anger, but it came from expecting too much from others. Through meditation I was able to master this problem that caused many things to go wrong in my life.

Buttonpusher< Lyrian: Oh, yeah, I know this anger as well. It is called intolerance of ineptitude. Still gets me sometimes! LOL

LEGS< Buttonpusher: She was angry because she had already dropped her lease. She didn't pass the entrance exams for the total care establishment, and after they made their report, her disability was revoked. (This is hearsay as far as I am concerned, but sister-in-law swears to it.)

Buttonpusher< LEGS: Very interesting.

Lyrian< LEGS: Totally rejuvenated, and your friend is mad at her healers? hmm. Did she like feeling sorry for herself?

LEGS< Lyrian: I couldn't understand the reaction either.

Lyrian< Legs: I guess she had misdirected goals.

Ben< LEGS: Apparently she preferred the total care establishment to being cured.

LEGS< Ben: Some people said it was not aliens, but angels who did it... ???

Ben< LEGS: I wouldn't know about that unless I contacted her.

Sarah_D< Ben: You also? Have you had an experience with an ET?

Ben< Sarah_D: Yes and no. Yes, telepathically with discarnate and incarnate ET's. But no, not as you are describing.

Sarah_D< Ben: Very interesting... and what have you learned, may I ask?

Ben< Sarah_D: I've learned that incarnate ET's are in the same spiritual range as humans (the earth-plane, mid-astral) and so I treat them as I do humans and human ghosts.

Buttonpusher< Ben: You are so right about that!!! VBS

[Apparently, Shipel sent a private message to Buttonpusher at this point.]

Buttonpusher< Shipel: Some people do not like to discuss their experiences on screen for fear of ridicule, and I respect their wishes, this is all!

Shipel< Buttonpusher: Yes, I do know what you mean. However, I am not one who judges.

Buttonpusher< Shipel: Oh, I know, but some people do not know everyone, and they in the beginning don't want to discuss, but eventually they do when they get to know people better and feel more comfortable about it. This is what I see anyway!

LEGS< Shipel: Do you know Ben? He holds the seminar discussions in Amazon on Saturday nights (in hiatus now for tax prep time).

Buttonpusher< Ben: What do your discussions cover, if I may ask?

Ben< Buttonpusher: I've been leading seminars since last August on a variety of topics in the subject area of spirituality. The most recent (two week) series was on Apocalypse. The (three week) series before that was on miracles. The transcripts are on my site.

Lyrian< Ben: On Apocalypse? What can you tell us of apocalypse?

Ben< Lyrian: It was a very interesting discussion on Apocalypse (both sessions) so I couldn't begin to summarize it in a few words. Many different opinions and points of view were posted and discussed.

Shipel< Ben: Sounds interesting. I will have to check out your site. I am teaching three classes in Chakra healing, Archetypes and crystal work with chakras.

Buttonpusher< Ben: Well, spirituality is very general, as all things are spiritual in a sense, and we are all spiritual beings as well as physical ones. LOL I will check out your site! VBS

Ben< ALL -- Well, my buzzer just buzzed, so it's time for me to go to bed. Peace and blessings to each of you.

[Some chat has been deleted here]

outsider< I think we will be pushed around by these alien dudes until we develop our minds to their level... something that's neglected in human society at present.

Buttonpusher< outsider: And this may be part of the reason for their interacting with us -- to push us to that level!

Lyrian< outsider: Once we do develop our minds to their level, then what do you suppose will happen?

outsider< The main advantage of these aliens over us is their knowledge of mental science ... and their mental abilities. And it is this advantage that allows them such great freedom in doing anything that they like with us. If we developed these abilities and knowledge ourselves, we won't be such pushovers, would we?

Lyrian< outsider: No, we would not. Have you ever heard of Qi Gong, and various types of meditation? In China it is claimed that psychics can call UFOs at will. See "Alien Update" by Timothy Good.

outsider< Yes, Lyrian, I think that might be true. I myself was just wondering how they would fare in a mental struggle with some of the Tantric yogis.

Buttonpusher< outsider: Well, I would say that their technical abilities way far exceed ours as well! by a very long shot!! LOL

outsider< Buttonpusher: That's true, but the way that they manipulate people is through psychic means, not technological (physical).

Buttonpusher< outsider: Not necessarily so. What do you think the implants are for? They manipulate both on psychological level and physical as well!

outsider< What do the implants do actually? How do they work?

Buttonpusher< outsider: The implants are used for a variety of things: tracking, transmitting, receiving info, and biological monitoring as well.

09. Understanding ET's
Session 1: Sat 28 Mar 1998

Ben< ALL: Okay, let's go. I have four short paragraphs to post before the first question. (When you see me post a question to ALL: it means you are all invited to respond.)

Ben< First, I probably should have entitled this series "UFO's And The Critters That Drive Them" -- but that sounds too much like a TV show.

Ben< Because I know this topic is controversial, and people trying to discuss it are likely to gallop off in many directions, I'll ask you to stick with my structure of this first hour a little more closely than usual. Use the private message (pm) feature for side conversations.

Ben< Specifically, please withhold your discussion of conspiracy, cover-up, and possible planets (or realms) of origin until after the break. I plan to look at those areas next week. For the third week, I plan to address the psychic and spiritual aspects.

Ben< Four types of information can be used as a basis for belief. In decreasing degrees of reliability, they are: (1) hard evidence, (2) personal experience, (3) first person testimony, and (4) second person hearsay. I would like to approach this subject in that order. My first question will arrive shortly, so warm up your typing fingers.

Ben< ALL: What does (or would) constitute hard evidence for the existence of UFOs or the critters that drive them? Do you have (or have you had) such evidence? YOUR TURN

Lor< I suppose hard evidence might be flight hardware, not yet identified, and/or fleshly being(s) therefrom.

LadyV< I agree with Lor.

FRAML< My own observation of something that my training about aircraft cannot explain. Appearance of creatures, hmmmm, mighty good make-up artists out there.

Buttonpusher< Physical traces like landing sites with physical traces of unknown substances or something unusual for the area in question. Removed implants. Anything you can use to sample DNA of the visitor. Photos of ships taken with instant camera is best, because you can't mess with the developing of the film. Several witnesses with collaborating stories of what was seen or what happened.

Ben< Buttonpusher: Nice list of types of physical evidence. Do you have (or have you had) such evidence?

Buttonpusher< Yes.

Lor< I do not, and have not had, such evidence.

summer< I personally have not had an experience that would constitute hard evidence. But one would think actually seeing a UFO or being abducted would be hard evidence. I have a friend who was abducted, but that would fall under #3.

Wendy< I have a #3 thing too.

Ben< summer, Wendy: Thanks for sticking with my outline categories. *smile*

SLIDER< I have seen some things in the sky that do not conform to what I know of as modern technology, but I can only use my own honesty for confirmation.

buzzworm< I have seen some interesting things in the sky, but I'm not sure about evidence, except my father swears he saw one 20 years ago and he is convinced of what it was.

Lor< I possibly assume that "drivers" of such vehicles probably have some kind of body that envelops at least their spirit.

SLIDER< I would say physical evidence or unaltered photo's that can be studied in detail.

FRAML< SLIDER: "Unaltered photos" -- after watching "Forest Gump" how can we tell what is "un-altered"?

Ben< SLIDER: I'm not so sure about photos anymore. They're getting easier and easier to fake. Especially after all the computer graphics that look so real.

SLIDER< Ben: Yes the photos are questionable. I was working in the Nevada desert three years ago, and saw a jet aircraft that didn't exist, or it's not supposed to exist. HA

LadyV< SLIDER: You're serious? I know you are ... just surprised, that's all.

SLIDER< LadyV: Surprised at what? -- I think I lost you. *S*

LadyV< SLIDER: Sorry. I was surprised that you saw an unknown aircraft that was not identified. Never have I seen that.

SLIDER< LadyV: It was there alright, and flew right over us. We were so far out in the desert I guess we invaded it's private playground. The thing was, I couldn't get anyone to identify what kind or whose. Lots of stuff exists that we never hear about, and matter of factly won't hear of.

LadyV< SLIDER: hmmm, Must have been the Republicans getting the Democrats in trouble. Never know who is lying anymore ... sorry, Ben.

summer< I agree with Ben about the photos. You can do amazing things now with graphics. Just look at the covers of Globe.

Buttonpusher< Ben: Yes, but you still can't fake a instant photo! At least not to my knowledge, since the picture pops out as soon as you take it and the negative is on the photo itself.

Lor< Buttonpusher: Why do you rule out manufacturing "instant" photos?

Buttonpusher< Lor: I don't. I just don't think it would be too easy to fake, but I am not a professional photographer, either. I have many photos I have taken of these craft from my backyard and other places, and I didn't fake them. I wouldn't even know how to! LOL

ViolinAngel< Buttonpusher: I love your little Roswell Alien. *S*

Lor< Buttonpusher: Is it not beside the point as to whether or not you personally can or cannot fake "instant" photos, if it can be done by current technology?

Buttonpusher< Lor: Who cares, OK? I didn't fake them, so it is irrelevant to me whether it can be done or not. If anyone wants to, they can talk to lghtbeing, who comes in this chat A LOT. He has been to my house and seen both the photos and other things (implant under microscope, etc.) and also the area in which this all took place. Ask him what he thinks.

pahana< I don't know of any friends that can prove to me about a flying craft not of this world, but it is a big place for just us humans to have all to our selves.

FRAML< Ben: I have a #4 testimony about an incident. I trust the source who knew the people involved.

summer< You can also do amazing things with mirrors and other special effects, so even if you have the real photo or negative, that doesn't necessarily mean it's legitimate.

Wendy< Ben: What about light shows that the angels sometimes give you? Would this be considered like a UFO thing? I guess not, since I can identify it.

Ben< Wendy: "Light shows" by angels or other beings are not real hard evidence. Usually they aren't even seen by all of the people present. They're in the area of psychic phenomena. (We'll get into that in another meeting.)

Wendy< Ben: Okay, cool.

summer< The only way I would believe the evidence before me was legitimate was if I took the photo myself or saw the UFO/beings myself.

ViolinAngel< This is interesting.

LadyV< I was just thinking, we don't have "hard evidence of God or angels either" ... just a thought running in my head.

JamesRD< Very good point (((LadyV)))

Wendy< LadyV: We do have hard evidence of God and angels.

summer< LadyV: I believe I have hard evidence of angels. I felt one. Hard evidence would fall under any sensory perception, since we're talking about physical evidence aren't we?

LadyV< summer: OK

Star_Light< I saw an angel when I was about 10 years old.

ViolinAngel< Star Light: I don't believe in God, but I believe in Angels. Help me try to figure that one out.

MACHA76< Ben: How do you prove what photos are real?

[Ben< MACHA76: I can't, personally, and I know that experts argue about it.]

JamesRD< I saw one as a child and have seen many of late, though the ones I have seen of late were extremely fast and moved across the horizon then straight up. They were a good distance away.

MACHA76< Has anyone seen the UFOs in Arizona?

Ben< ALL: Have you had personal experience with physical UFO's or incarnate ET's? (We will consider discarnate ET's later, probably in the third meeting.) YOUR TURN

buzzworm< My father was the largest skeptic you could find, until his truck broke down while hunting, had he one come over and hover above him. He described it vividly. Also changed him a lot.

Lor< Come to think of it, I know someone I trust that says they have talked to persons that were abducted. I also know of someone who has talked to the spirit of an ET (not of this world).

LEGS< Mine would be #4 incidents ... two sides of the family, at different times.

MACHA76< Ben: I am new here. When are these seminars on?

[Ben< MACHA76: Saturday nights at 11:00 pm U.S. Eastern time.]

LEGS< Non-existing aircraft ... I have seen in my binoculars from back yard ... so this is #1??

Yopo< LEGS: I would think that would fall into Ben's #2 category. #1 would have to be a physical artifact of some sort, wouldn't it?

LEGS< Thanks, Yopo. I have seen what is not admitted to by government, ours or anyone else's, from my back yard with binoculars on infinity setting ... so #2.

summer< I have not had any experience with UFO's in the 3rd dimension. I believe I had one in dream state.

Ben< Buttonpusher: Do you wish to describe any specific bit of physical evidence?

Buttonpusher< I have had encounter experiences since I was 3 or 4 years of age. Also I have had encounters with more than one group of ETs.

summer< Buttonpusher: What sort of encounters? Did you speak with them, or did you just see the craft?

Buttonpusher< summer: No, I have been abducted by these little greys since I was 3 or 4. Then as I got older I began having contacts with others from other places, and a lot was like spiritual in nature ... like they are interested in our spiritual development. It appears there is another group that seems to be interested in those who have had prior ET contact, and also interested in those who have the ability to interact in other dimensions that are connected to the earth.

Ben< Buttonpusher: I see that you are starting to post some of this on your site. Thanks.

Buttonpusher< Ben: I am trying, but it costs money which I do not have. I have very limited income as I have dedicated most of my time in research and working with other abductees who have been traumatized by the events, so money is scarce around here, but hopefully I will be able to post on my site the photos and some other things as well, like the automatic writings with weird symbols. Lot of people are getting similar writings all over the world and do not know each other. I just received today from Australia some more drawings and symbols that are really weird.

summer< Buttonpusher: Were these abductions good or not so good experiences?

Buttonpusher< summer: Both! Let's just say that there were some unpleasant encounters and more pleasant ones as well.

summer< Buttonpusher: Do you wish these encounters to stop? A friend who used to be abducted told me the last time she was abducted she looked at them and said they cannot do this anymore, and they WILL NOT do this anymore, they cannot invade her space. Basically she stood up to them. That was the last time she was abducted.

Buttonpusher< summer: Not really. I have learned lot from it and am beyond the point of fear now. What remains is curiosity and a need to know, so I keep trying to communicate during the encounter and get what info I can. I do not regret the experiences, just some of the things they do during the encounter.

LadyV< Ben: Do you have hard evidence?

Ben< LadyV: No, and as to personal experience, I think I have seen several UFOs, on radar and visual, at several different times, but not "up close and personal." Most of my information is type 3 testimony, which we'll get to in a few minutes.

LadyV< Some say the aliens are among us ... is this hard evidence?

[Ben< LadyV: No, that is hearsay testimony, which I call type #4 information.]

pt< Hello. I want to run into friendly, respectful aliens.

Lor< pt: So you want to run into friendly, respectful aliens? I suggest you be very careful, lest your wish should be fulfilled. I would anticipate that precious little would be known about the ethics, etc., of a "friendly" ET who might appear to be respectful.

pt< True, Lor. I got the willies as I was typing, and now wish to rescind this. My life is complicated enough, thank you. Fascinated by what others are relating, though!

LadyV< Actually on PPS there has been a discussion on alien abduction. These people are suffering ... and someone is hearing them.

Star_Light< Ben: So, are angels and aliens the same thing?

Ben< Star_Light: No, angels come from and return to the Light. Aliens are earth-plane beings, basically in the same spiritual range as humans.

Star_Light< Ben: Oh ... :)

LadyV< Ben: That is an interesting statement ... on the level of man, you say?

Lor< Ben: By earth-plane, do you mean that they are not aliens to the earth?

[Ben< Lor: UFO drivers are aliens to the planet Earth, but they come from a physically similar planet or planets, and they are spiritually similar to humans.]

silent< Does anyone here believe in hypnotism to recall experiences?

Lor< silent: I've been told by a hypnotist that it is possible to make someone recall experiences -- but not without possibly seriously endangering the subject's health?

LadyV< Lor: I would respectfully suggest to you that you need to know any person very well, who is to do this for you.

Buttonpusher< Lor: Hypnosis is good if the hypnotist is a professional and knows what they are doing. Otherwise, yes, it can be very damaging. Also, you want to find one that does not already have a preconceived notion of the encounters, so they can't inject things into the hypnosis, like leading questions and such. I personally feel that if I do not remember something, it probably is not a good idea to remember it anyhow.

Lor< Buttonpusher: The hypnotist I spoke about was a professional, in that he has refused to hypnotize anyone again after he discovered a result that he had not counted on by a particular suggestion, saying he just cannot know the subject's mind well enough to make sure he won't cause serious damage.

Buttonpusher< Lor: Well, it sounds like he was not a very experienced person if he doubts himself.

Yopo< I have had a #2 experience, which I won't detail here. The only point I would like to make is that my brother was with me at the time, and although we are both in agreement that the shared experience was somehow extraordinary, our recollections of the event are quite different. I guess the point here is that #2 experiences may not be completely reliable, as they are by nature subjective. And the stranger the experience, the more subjective they may be.

Ben< LEGS: Would you like to describe your (#2) experience?

LEGS< Ben: As a bird watcher, one spring morning, clear and sunny, about 14 years ago, I was watching a bird which suddenly decided to fly across the street. I followed the motion but overspun my binoculars in my haste, and before I could correct my mistake, still holding them to my eyes, I saw an enormous oblong craft. It was not apparently moving that fast compared to the triangular small crafts flying formation around it. They would break and soar out of view upward, and then momentarily return more or less to the same position. I counted nine in view at once. And watched until they finally moved where the roof of house across the street blocked further sight.

silent< Hey, Legs, do you think that the flying UFOs could just be new government planes?

Buttonpusher< silent: If they were government craft, then who are the pilots of such craft? They ain't human beings, not the ones I've seen anyhow!

summer< What was #2 again? *sorry*

Yopo< summer ... #2 was personal experience.

summer< Yopo: Thanks *s*

Ben< Buttonpusher, LEGS: Thanks. What is or was first person experience to you (#2) becomes first person testimony to me when I hear it directly from you (#3).

pt< Buttonpusher: Why does the word abduction even sound so fearful? Are persons who are "abducted" agreeing to participate in this at some level?

Buttonpusher< pt: I use this term as most people prefer it, but I agree with you, it can't be done without our consent at some level for this. I do not try to stop it. I think there is a reason for all experiences we have in life, and it is a learning experience that we must need or we wouldn't have them.

summer< pt: I believe that nothing can be done to you without your consent, on some level anyway, whether conscious or subconscious. Otherwise, there would be no free will.

Lor< summer: Something can be done to you without your consent, if what that hypnotist said is true. He says he even proved it to a group of professors who had the same opinion you expressed.

summer< Lor: How did he prove it?

Lor< summer: I was told he convinced a subject to try to murder an innocent person while not telling him the "gun" was unloaded. The skeptical professors indicated that they were glad they were not that person, had it been loaded, and ceded the point.

summer< Lor: But on some level he had to have known what was going on. If a person does not want to do something under hypnosis, they will not do it.

Lor< summer: It is for you to have the ears to hear the truth; that is, if you want to hear it. The professors who had been teaching what you expounded, decided not to teach that anymore, at least that is what I was told.

Ben< ALL: Have you received first person testimony from someone who reported their own personal experience with physical UFOs or incarnate ETs? If so, would you briefly share that person's story? YOUR TURN

pt< Ben: One of my teachers has a son who was abducted several times from an early age. He told mommy of the hospital room with the bright orange light, and today (15 or so) has brain lesions that at one time hemorrhaged, and now he is a bit disabled. Very serious stuff.

Ben< pt: Yes, that is very serious stuff.

SLIDER< Ben: I have a good friend that is very spiritual and honest, who took me into their confidence one day and told me about a visit, while driving a big rig down the road. This visitor had only three fingers on each hand, but did have thumbs, and told him about a woman who would become his wife although he was already married. The visitor came to him many times after that, and the predictions did come true. He divorced and did remarry that person. There is more, but too much to type here and still keep up.

LEGS< Ben: The other is the time my parents stopped for the night near Waxahatchie and sat eating their evening meal brought picnic style and gazing across the pasture to a not too distant lighted "chicken coop," which they both assumed it was, without even discussing it. Then as they watched, it suddenly raised straight up, silently, slowly at first, then rapidly fading into the sky.

Yopo< LEGS: Your "chicken coop" is interesting. We all seem to share this tendency to want to impose familiar interpretations onto unknown or unusual events, even when that interpretation doesn't quite make sense.

LEGS< Yopo: It was the row of lighted "windows" they thought they were seeing. Following the "flight" they came back from their trip and the story is, at that point they did not remember what had happened to the night-time. And part of their supper was uneaten, and it was nearly dawn when they found themselves just looking into each others eyes and saying, "Did you see that?"

Buttonpusher< Ben: I am also the director and founder of an organization that researches this phenomena. I have gobs of stories! All documented. Let's see ... there is a girl in Cincinnati, Ohio, who is currently working on a dictionary from Zeta to English. She intends to publish it very soon with Greenleaf Publications (Mark Davenport and Leah Haley's business). I have known this person for many years. She is extremely talented although she is deaf in one ear and blind in one eye and is on total disability. She amazes me with her accounts. Also, she has so many crystals in her house that if you go there your calculator will not work! She has had encounter experiences all her life as well. I met her in an abductee support group and we knew each other before we even met. We were both around the same age and we both remembered an identical incident when we were kids, of being taken into this room where there were more children, and they wanted us to play with these other children who looked ill.

LEGS< Last posting ... a person I know personally has been abducted repeatedly. This one is highly intelligent, very conscientious in vocation and avocation, and very psychic as well, which was explained as not always being true, but only since about the third abduction.

Yopo< I think I would generally find #2 personal experiences involving corroboration via instrumentation more reliable. Something viewed by the eye, say, that also registered on a radar screen. Or perhaps personal experiences of the same event, related by independent viewers who had no knowledge of one another's testimonies.

Ben< Yopo: An Air Force friend of mine was the pilot of an F-94 interceptor. He was scrambled against UFOs over Washington, DC, in the 1950's. He closed in on one, which he described as a shiny metal discus-shaped vehicle, to 1500 yards, with radar lock-on. He called his command center and asked what he should do. They said "Stand by" (as usual, while they checked with somebody). Two identical vehicles moved up beside him, one on each wing. I asked him what he did then. He said, "I disarmed my guns. In a couple minutes, all three of them accelerated, climbed, and left me like I was tied to the dock. So I told the controllers, and went home." End of story.

Yopo< Ben: *smile* That's a heavy-duty #2 for sure! It is that sort of testimony that keeps my mind wide open on the whole issue.

Ben< Yopo: I have a bunch of those testimonies written up or in note form (somewhere in my cardboard archives) and probably should find them and post them. I haven't put any of them on my site, because they aren't strictly spiritual.

Yopo< In my opinion, though, it will become increasingly difficult to rely on #2 type evidence, and more-so on #3. Now that aliens and UFOs have entered the mainstream media, a sort of structured UFO folklore is rapidly emerging. People have this as part of their cultural background, so they will tend to drop unusual experiences into these ready-made categories.

LadyV< Yopo: Good point ... but you know, I would imagine those that are serious about it are rather silent or speak in the right time and place. Do you think so?

Buttonpusher< OK you guys, let me tell you something: it is believed that people who have these experiences are non-educated and disturbed people, and this just is not the case. Most of the people in question are well educated, with degrees and also from all walks of life and professions, from NASA scientists to lawyers to medical health professionals, including psychiatrists and such, so this belief that they are non-educated and disturbed is not so.

LadyV< Buttonpusher: Hey! They say that about Chat users! (laughing) In this I agree. It is the one who has experienced awareness that is sought, or so I am told.

Yopo< LadyV: Yes, I agree. People certainly don't want to be categorized as lunatics. *smile* That same superficial media attention probably keeps some of the most reliable witnesses silent.

Buttonpusher< Yopo: Exactly!

LadyV< Yopo: Yes, it does.

Buttonpusher< LadyV: A lot of people in this chat are abductees! Most will not go public, but many have spoken with me on many occasions asking for referrals and such for their area.

Yopo< LadyV: Here, of course, we can say what we will, and not be fore-judged as being quite nuts. *LOL*

LadyV< Yopo: (laughing) Something to say about that. We made the National Enquirer or whatever that trash is. Now when we make the New York Times and the Chicago Sun, then I may wonder! I always feel sometimes that THEY KNOW WE ARE HERE. (laughing)

Buttonpusher< Yopo: You would be surprised to know, maybe, that even here people have been ridiculed and judged as well. I have had many people tell me to come to a private room or only interact in pm for the same reason.

Yopo< Buttonpusher: Sorry to hear that! Opinions are one thing, and belong here. Judgments are quite another.

LEGS< Yopo: This almost-judged-a-lunatic by you thanks you for the reprieve.

Ben< ALL: I'm going to withhold the #4 (hearsay) question until after the hour, in case anyone else wants to share any more #2 experiences or #3 testimony.

Buttonpusher< My last abduction experience took place while on this chat about one month ago or so. I was in one of the rooms talking to a few people, and then all of a sudden the computer went dead, the lights went out, and all power was lost. I do not remember much, but I remember being inside this craft, and on a table, and then I remember being back home, and blood dripping from my nose onto the keypad, and the computer was still off, but the lights were back on, the clock was flashing, and since I have another clock, I was able to ascertain that only a few minutes of difference in the timing -- like about 20 minutes or so. Anyhow it sucked because I had to clean all the blood out of the keyboard, and still there is some dried blood that I can't reach to clean ... yuk! Also in that experience, I remember that before they got me aboard, I was looking at my other desk in the room, thinking I should get up and get the candle and light it so I would have light, but I just sat there looking at it and didn't get up -- not like I was paralyzed or anything, just like I didn't feel like getting up or something.

windy< Summer: Just wanted to say that I found your comments interesting. (imo) abduction scenarios (with the light, going through walls, etc., sound very much like inter-dimensional experiences. I think there is something to exerting one's will and protecting oneself. I have heard that some former abductees and near-abductees called on the name of Jesus to protect them and the "aliens" left.

Elijah< windy: Is it bad to be abducted? Did it work?

summer< windy: Yes, I also know someone who did the same thing ... stood up to them and told them they cannot do this anymore, and will not do it anymore. That was the last time she was abducted.

Elijah< So, Ben, where does Jesus come into the inter-stellar concept?

Ben< Elijah: Jesus descended from the Light to the earth-plane (which includes the entire material universe), incarnated, lived a human life, died, and ascended to the Light. 'twas a vertical maneuver, where the material universe is seen as horizontal.

Yopo< Ben: *smile* I like the horizontal/vertical Universe idea. I am thankful for this multi-directional forum. No mere flat-land touristers in these parts!

Elijah< So, Ben, do you assume others in this universe know of this?

Ben< Elijah: Good question. I have conversed telepathically with incarnate and discarnate ET's who did not know about the Light, so of course, they didn't know of any beings who descend from the Light and ascend to the Light.

Elijah< Ben: Neither do I.

Ben< Elijah: Yes, from having seen you before, I gathered that you don't believe in the Light. Too bad. But after all, it's your choice, and I don't push anyone.

Ben< /topic Open discussion of UFOs and the critters that drive them

[Note: From this point on, several pages of side conversations have been deleted.]

SLIDER< Ben: I would consider the plausibility of infinite numbers of critters of many types, and the same goes for their machines. The universe is a big place --- macro and micro.

Ben< ALL: I'd like to recommend that you check the 98-03-13 transcript on my site (under the Seminars button). It is an interesting chatroom discussion of this topic that I downloaded even though I was on "Income-tax break".

Elijah< Have met several species of ET's, so to speak, no harm done, different branch of us.

windy< I have wondered if some so-called sleep paralysis experiences aren't just the beginning of "alien encounter" experiences. The last time it happened to me, with the darkness, the buzzing, and the orange light, I just prayed a lot, and it went away.

summer< windy: I have had those paralyzing experiences (very scary), but I did not have the buzzing and orange light with them, just darkness, like I was trying to wake up from a dream and could not move anything and my mind wasn't quite right ... hard to explain.

windy< summer: Usually I just experience the darkness, and sleep paralysis as well. It may be a spring-board to the ether world (where astral travel and stuff like remote viewing takes place), but in my case there always seem to be evil entities blocking my conscious entry into these places. It has (I think) to do with childhood experiences that were blotted out due to lack of understanding, and the astral travel is coupled with these horrible experiences. But it also may be the door where these abductions take place.

summer< windy: I don't know what it is exactly, but haven't gotten farther than the paralysis and darkness.

Buttonpusher< windy: Not always the door. Sometimes they are just out-of-body experiences or other things. Not all is UFO related.

LadyV< Buttonpusher: I know ... good thing you can aid.

Buttonpusher< LadyV: I do what I can to help, but it is very difficult task. You have to be able to deal with a lot of different things that come with it. You really have to be able to control your own emotions when doing this. Sometimes someone can say something and it brings a memory back to me, and not always pleasant, so to say.

LadyV< Buttonpusher: We know you are trying, and that is what matters. As I said, there was an informative discussion of abduction on PPS. It was serious and is serious business ... as Ben has also stated.

Buttonpusher< LadyV: That is why I came in to join in the discussion. *smile*

windy< Has anyone ever read Carlos Castendeda's "The Art of Dreaming"? He speaks of an inter-dimensional universe which the ancient sorcerers opened a door to. Also Carlos seems to ride the fence as to the intentions of these entities. (imo) they are very keen on taking over human bodies, and tend to wish to experience the more physical and material side of reality. I can't help but wonder if there isn't some connection, and that possibly when we started doing nuclear testing we may have ripped open a door between dimensions.

LadyV< windy: Interesting point. You know, I puzzled over that part of the book myself. You have helped me to see it clearer. Thank you.

Juz< Ben: Just wondering ... Do they know the exact reason for the crash at Roswell?

Ben< Juz: I've heard a lot of speculation about the cause of the crash at Roswell, but nothing I'd be willing to hang my hat on. I was stationed at Roswell ten years after that crash, and a good many old-timers on the base and in town were still talking about it.

Juz< Ben: It just puzzles me how such an advanced race could possibly crash. You'd think they would have safety measures that would make crashing impossible.

Buttonpusher< Juz: Anybody can make a mistake, even others from elsewhere! Only god is perfect!

Juz< Buttonpusher: Yes, I suppose you are right.

FRAML< Juz: The best laid plans of mice and aliens oft go astray. What is future perfect to us may be their cast-off ships that are used for exploration, because if they are lost, the monetary loss is not great.

windy< When I heard the story of Roswell and watched the movie about it, I kept getting the impressions that these little greys were trying to escape -- that they were fleeing -- and that they wanted to help us, to warn us. I am also increasingly of the opinion that the little greys are subterranean, and are either native to our planet or have been here for thousands of generations.

LEGS< Ben: Were you going to share some #4 experiences with us?

[Ben< LEGS: Other folks are doing that now. There are a LOT of #4 reports.]

windy< Ben: Interesting point on vertical, horizontal movement of universes. I would be interested sometime in hearing how/why you think of it that way. It fits in quite well with my own idea of the Universe.

FRAML< windy: Visit Ben's page (click on his name) and look at the paper "Spiritual Spectrum."

Lor< windy: Suggest you visit Ben's site.

windy< FRAML: Thanks! I will check out the "spectrum"

Ben< windy: Look for it under the "paradigm" button. And it's also in the paper "Reincarnation 101".

Yopo< Ben: I have a bit of a problem thinking about "advanced" beings, with telepathic abilities, being unaware of that which we refer to as The Light. How can this be? Perhaps highly advanced only in a technological sphere? I wonder sometimes about emerging machine consciousness. Would this be a thing without a "soul"?

Buttonpusher< Yopo: Yes! You are right about that! There are those who are really so far beyond our technology, yet they are very interested in our spiritual experiences. Seems they don't know much about it, and want more information from us. I am also wondering about machine consciousness! Real interesting indeed!

Elijah< Ben: Then what is light, but a narrow perspective of the electromagnetic continuum?

Ben< Elijah: Physical light is a small slice of the electromagnetic spectrum. Spiritual Light is something else again. It is perceived by clairvoyance, not by physical eyes.

Yopo< Hmm ... Perhaps that last post to Elijah is a partial answer to my question.

Ben< Yopo: At least some ET's may be somewhat ahead of human beings technologically and psychically, but not ethically. I find the vertical dimension is basically understandable in terms of ethics (attitude toward others).

Lor<Yopo: That is what I was getting at when I said that an ET's sense of ethics may not be related to any that we may have become accustomed to.

Buttonpusher< Lor and Ben: I agree with both of your posts!

Yopo< Ben: Hmm ... I think there is a deeper dimension to the "ethics" thing than what I have seen yet. You almost make ethical consciousness sound like a ladder one may climb ... am I wrong in thinking you mean it that way?

[Ben< Yopo: Very perceptive, as usual. *smile* I think of it as a ladder of being, where "being" is a verb instead of a noun. For example: being harmless is higher than being hurtful, and being helpful is higher than being harmless.]

SLIDER< Ben: I'm of set mind that Light, Love, Compassion, and Truth go together. Most all else falls into the dark or unseen spectrum. Elijah: any thought on this?

Lor< SLIDER: Light, Love, and Compassion ... yes; but sometimes it is kinder and more loving not to reveal the truth to someone when it would hurt them.

SLIDER< Lor: Maybe for some, but I would rather experience truth with compassion than be coddled into a false hope.

Lor< SLIDER: I did not suggest that false hope would be kind. It's just that I sense that kindness is a higher ethic than honesty at times. There is information that can harm people when they are not yet able to cope with it.

SLIDER< Lor: Yes, I understand where you are coming from. I guess you need to use another type of discernment to know who is ready for what, and when to let them know what they should know -- and then hope that your own intuition is on track. *smile*

Juz< Does anyone know much about the Elohim ... were they alien messengers?

[Ben< Juz: Good question. Please ask this again in the meeting two weeks from now -- or I can, if you're not here.]

Elijah< Ben: If you are telepathic, touch my mind, feel me, be with me, know my being-ness, then decide.

Ben< Elijah: My comment concerning your apparent belief was logical induction from observed data, based on what you posted previously, that's all, not psychic sensitivity of any kind. If you were playing a role, I didn't look behind the mask.

Elijah< Ben: USE your telepathic abilities, no roles. Know ME.

LadyV< Buttonpusher: Did you know there is a Saint that is patron of abduction? She is called Bahkita. Perhaps, as you recognize the light of God, then to call upon her when you are experiencing this happening may help you? I do not know.

Buttonpusher< LadyV: Never heard of this ... where did you get that info?

LadyV< Buttonpusher: I was given the information by a little Irish lady. I keep the picture of Bahkita near me at all times. It was a gift and I accepted it.

summer< LadyV: What would be the need for a patron saint of abduction, if there weren't abductions? I did not realize there was a patron saint of abduction ... fascinating. *s*

LadyV< summer: I am a simple person. I listen and learn. The little old lady said to me, "For you ... I love you" ... and I accepted it and her words. I don't know why she gave it to me.

Buttonpusher< LadyV: Very interesting. *S*

summer< LadyV: Maybe she foresaw a need for you to have it. What an interesting gift!

windy< I think that X-files has a reasonably good handle on the whole issue, with all the twists and turns. The international powers-that-be involvement/cover-up. Most interesting of late was the idea of a rebellion going on within the "alien" ranks.

Buttonpusher< windy: Well, to my understanding there is! Not all of them get along, so to say!

SLIDER< Windy: *S* That sounds more like millennium with the rebellion?

Yopo< windy: My brother and I have speculated on the possibility that X-files may itself be a cover-up of sorts. By running the gamut of the paranormal, and throwing every possible twisted conspiracy theory at us, they reduce the whole issue to the level of televised entertainment. (Not that I don't find it entertaining!) Then there was that put-on about the abducted family, all conveniently videoed, and the questionable alien autopsy. Maybe that poster should read: "The truth is in here ... somewhere." *LOL*

windy< Yopo: *LOL* Re: "the truth is in here ... somewhere." Indeed, that phrase fits most of my encounters with the world.

Buttonpusher< Yopo: How true!

windy< In Revelations, there is that part about God saving all those "whose names are written in the book of life." I always found this quite puzzling until I began to learn about the theoretical existence of (sub) dimensional universes.

FRAML< windy: I have never taken that phrase literally, that there were only so many (144,000) on the list. All who do God's service for others will lay up their treasures in heaven ... thus be known in the book of life. What are treasures? Blessings given (a lady to whom I gave the gift of ears when she needed to get all of her frustration out). Blessings received (one of my 6th grade boys who asked if he could be the altar boy at my wedding). Blessings observed (the teacher who threw herself on the child in Jonesboro).

Elijah< FRAML: 12000 of each of the Jewish tribes. Did you think them lost? Read again.

windy< FRAML: Very beautiful treasures, indeed. *smile*

Elijah< Ben: You would judge by whatever standards you hold most evident. Use your telepathic sense, find me by the name of Elijah, my being-ness, and you will know other.

Ben< Elijah: Why?

Elijah< Ben: You're a truth seeker, aren't YOU?

Ben< Elijah: Yes, I am a seeker of truth -- which means that I know I don't have all the truth! (If I thought I did, why would I seek it?) Though I am not a judge of you or anyone else, I would like to know more of the truth about YOU -- and yet I do not wish to see more of YOU than you care to reveal. Does that make sense?

Elijah< Ben: You have only to read me. Feel free. You have my permission. The revealing may not be what you care to perceive.

windy< There is an interesting book called "Lilith" penned by a Russian author. In a forest dwelling, a stone-age woman encounters 3 or 5 lizard-type aliens who are traveling in search of a planet to settle their own population on sometime in the future when their own sun goes nova. It is a very technologically advanced world where everything and everybody is programmed. The male she encounters finds our world beautiful and intriguing. It would seem to me that freedoms (even as warped as many of ours have become) can be very appealing to a race who has experienced the "beauty" of total organization and preplanning. True spirituality, and its free-will and chance aspects, would be even more appealing.

LadyV< Ben: What happened to class? I think we sorta got out of the 1 and 2 thing. Did you get the response you had hoped for in discussion? If I may ask.

Ben< LadyV: This class covered what I had hoped it would for tonight. And then moved in several directions, as I thought it would. *smile*

LadyV< Ben: OK ... good!

Yopo< Ben: Are you saying we're like a jumping frog race? That you get us all neatly assembled in the middle of the chalk ring, then we invariable hop off in all directions? *LOL*

SLIDER< Yopo: Uh-oh, the Budweiser frogs -- watch out for those swamp lizards. LOL

Buttonpusher< rrriibbiittt riibbbiiittt! LOL

windy< Yopo: A jumping frog race, eh? I will have to remember that analogy in the classroom. *vbg*

Ben< Yopo: LOL! Maybe I was thinking of HopToad, whom I haven't seen for awhile.

Yopo< Ben: Alas, HopToad has hopped away for a while. Hop she returns before too long.

LadyV< Ben: You know, when you get down to the critters and frogs, then I understand you better. (laughing) That is how we are ... we do try. Say, would it help to post with the topic, some basic things like ALL are welcome, use PM when personal ... a brief 1-3 lines that we all can read? How is that?

[Ben< LadyV: Good idea. I've done something like it sometimes, but not always.]

alien< Ben: Was there any conclusion brought forth tonight on the validity of UFO's ? I arrived late.

[Ben<alien: Not a conclusion, as such, but considerable sharing of experiences.]

UBLUV< Aliens you say? UFOs? As below, so above.

LadyV< Question ... how can we all smile at this hour of the night? (smiling) We are a social bunch ... the only place on the net that I know of where we consider the feelings of each other or try to.

windy< LadyV: *smile* (sigh) Group hug ...

Buttonpusher< LadyV: Time is a state of mind! LOL

LadyV< Buttonpusher: Right! (laughing)

Ben< Elijah: Okay. I have just now tried to reach out to YOU. Perhaps a contact, perhaps not. My impression is, yes, there is a mask, almost like armor, with a gentle heart behind it. And a mind that is ... what? Self-challenging? That seems to be the impression.

Elijah< Ben: Will ask the angels to allow you entrance.

Ben< Elijah: Thank you. I will try to honor that invitation.

gold_euphori< Ben: So you are saying you are seeking perfect knowledge of the path and goal of self realization. If you had that knowledge, you wouldn't need to seek anymore, you would then just have to live it and experience it. My guru says "books are a wall in front of god realization".

Ben< gold_euphori: It isn't merely knowledge I seek. To know is to be. So I take the responsibility for what I am becoming as well as for what I am learning. Yes, I have a long way to go, because I believe this search is open-ended. (I like it that way.)

Buttonpusher< Ben: Well put! *smile*

gold_euphori< Ben: Do you believe there is a perfect complete exact science and knowledge to god realization which is common to every past master and every living master ?

Ben< gold_euphori: I tend to avoid the word and the concept "perfect" -- or "omni-anything" -- because I know my understanding is limited. As to whether there is one perfect path (for all souls and gurus and such), I doubt it.

gold_euphori< Ben: I believe there is one truth, one god, one system of paths, one goal. How can you think there are many truths? I think truth is one, and I believe all past masters walked on the same one system of paths and attained the same one goal.

Ben< gold_euphori: I see the convergence of truths toward the possibility of one truth, and the convergence of some spiritual paths, but I do not find that all "spiritual masters" were (or are) headed in the same direction.

gold_euphori< Ben: If you spend the time to read into all religions, be it the Zoroastrian, Taoism, Zen, Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, etc., you will see that all these masters walked the same path of love, service, morals, divine qualities, goodness, meditation ... you will the unity in truth.

Ben< gold_euphori: I acknowledge that the 50+ years I have spent searching all the religions and paths, and various philosophies, is nowhere near enough.

gold_euphori< Ben: Wow, you have been searching 50 years and you still don't have the highest knowledge of the path and goal of self realization? Wow, that is tragic, friend. I have been searching and researching for two years, and I have complete knowledge of the path and goal of self realization, but I still lack full experience, but that will come with time. Do you know the one factor which makes me have full knowledge and you not, is the fact that I got this knowledge of realized living masters and their writings? Seek the writings and words of a living master and your search for knowledge will come to an end ... "books are a wall blocking the path to self realization" ... and once you have the highest knowledge, put it into practice and get experience and realize.

Ben< gold_euphori: All that in two years? My, my ... how wonderful.

skychild< The best teachers are even better students.


SrvngLight< UBLUV: Not sure how to respond to that one. (*grin*)

Buttonpusher< UBLUV: Hell, yeah! VBS

gold_euphori< UBLUV: Most in here are still seriously lacking full knowledge of the path and goal of self realization. I was so surprised to hear someone say that after 50 years he is still searching for knowledge. If Ben takes my advice and reads the writings of a living master like sai baba or ching hai, he can acquire the full complete knowledge of self realization he has been searching for, for the past 50 years. I said what I said to help him move closer to truth. I hope he takes my advice. I say this because it will help him.

Ben< gold_euphori: I have studied Sai Baba of Shirdi -- and the present revival of his spirit. I find he was an interesting person with many psychic abilities, but I would not follow him now. [Sai Baba of Shirdi died on 15 October 1918. Sai Baba of Prashanti claims to be the reincarnation of Sai Baba of Shridi, or so I am told.]

[Extended discussion deleted. The major issue was whether it is better to devote oneself to a guru or pursue one's spiritual journey independently. I have deleted the discussion because I believe this is always a matter of personal preference.]

Yopo< FRAML: By the way, I saw that you reinstated my topic about sety when you noticed you had inadvertently replaced it. I greatly appreciated that courtesy, my friend! *smile*

FRAML< Yopo: Prayers for SETY is more urgent than this class. Thank you, sir.

Yopo< FRAML: Sometimes prayers are all we have left. *smile* And I well know that you know ... Love to ya ...

Elijah< FRAML: Sety dies because she hasn't made the choices to continue here.

LadyV< Elijah: I did not know that you knew our sety.

Elijah< LadyV: Was aware.

LadyV< Elijah: She is suffering greatly now. In your compassion, and I know you have this, wish her well.

Elijah< LadyV: I do. Will do what I may to ease her passage, soon now, will aide her transition ... this shit is always so hard ... feel her songs, music ...

LadyV< Elijah: And in this you will comfort. I will be sure that she knows this. Thank you dear Elijah.

Elijah< My wish/mind-set for sety, follow the light, dear one, as you transition, be not distracted by illusion, steer to the glowing diffusion of light, make no choices to return, sety, you will be beset by influences ... ignore, follow the light ... by the holy names El Shaddai, el chai, be you conducted.

Ben< Elijah: Amen.

[Probably a private message from Melchizeldek to Elijah goes here.]

Elijah< Melchizeldek: To life ... l'chaim.

grizzly< So many people here, yet it seems very, very quiet?

SrvngLight< I saw two bears collide in the woods ... it was a grizzly accident. *S*

grizzly< How is everyone tonight?

SrvngLight< I'll spare you the grizzly details. *S*

grizzly< SrvngLight: Greetings. It sounds like you have a tale to tell? *smile*

Ben< SrvngLight: Thanks for sparing us the grizzly de-tails. I take it they bear-ly survived?

grizzly< Ben: Good one! How are you?

Ben< grizzly: Hello, friend! Good to see you. I hope you weren't one of those SrvngLight was talking about?

SrvngLight< You shoulda Ben there, it was a Kodiak moment. (Grin)

Elijah< Ben: Will see you in your dreams this day, since didn't come to me, know me other wise.

Ben< Elijah: I will watch for you in my dreams. Shalom.

MonaHawke< Well, guess I'm pretty late for da gathering. (((Ben))) How'd it go?

Ben< MonaHawke: I thought it went very well, especially for such a potentially voluminous topic. Same topic next week, with a different slant.

SLIDER< Ben: Did you ever get to Item #4 or was I sleeping?

Ben< SLIDER: I didn't go into #4 (hearsay) because so much was being done in the previous categories, which I consider more important, and which certainly include less volume of data.

SLIDER< Ben: Good, I had hoped it didn't go over my head. *S*

Ben< ALL: Well, it's way past my bedtime. Peace and blessings to each of you.

09. Understanding ET's
Session 2: Sat 04 Apr 1998

Ben< ALL: Okay, time to start. As usual, I have a few paragraphs to post before we get into the questions.

Ben< Tonight I plan to look at the question: "Is there a government cover-up of UFO phenomena?" -- but I'm not going to start by assuming the answer.

Ben< I would like this session to be an exercise in reality-testing for each of us here. How well do we know what we think we know? To what degree have we based opinions on: (1) hard evidence, (2) personal experience, (3) first person testimony, (4) second person testimony, (5) hearsay and rumors?

Ben< We have plenty of rumors -- in many books and the media and privately circulated -- so let's leave evaluation of rumors until later in the meeting.

Ben< Hard evidence of any kind of cover-up is difficult to obtain. It has to be something like a letter saying: "Destroy the film, deny that you saw anything, and burn this letter." So, no one is likely to say they have such evidence in a meeting like this.

Ben< Your personal experience is first-person testimony to anyone you yourself tell it to, and it becomes second-person testimony to anyone he or she tells it to. In the case of a cover-up, first-person testimony would be a something like: "Two men came to my house and told me I must never say anything to anyone about this." Or: "After we picked up all that stuff, our officers told us to forget we were ever there and never mention it to anyone, not even our families." No one is likely to talk like this in an open forum, either.

Ben< ALL: Does anyone here have anything more substantive than rumors about a government cover-up of UFO phenomena? Do you personally know someone who has been told to keep quiet about this subject by someone acting in an official government capacity? YOUR TURN

Yopo< Not I ...

MOONDREAMS< Not I either, just second hand reports.

Poweress< Well, yes, back in the early 70's we had many sightings of UFO's in my general area. They lasted for about 1-2 weeks, and the police were called, and even the police saw them. A local farmer saw one close up, and his field even had the burn marks, where the grass was burned away. A UFO expert from the government was called, and decided it was all swamp gas. No swamps anywhere around.

Lor< Ben: No, I can't say that I have. My experiences with the government while I worked with them never suggested that they covered up anything that did not involve national security rather directly.

Luv4all< National security, to prevent widespread panic -- who knows why they do what they do? But really, this last "explanation" they gave for Roswell was just plain silly. They'd have been better off just not saying anything at all.

[Ben< Luv4all: Good point. This last "crash dummy" explanation was a hoot!]

Ben< I reported for duty with the 509th Bomb Wing at Roswell, NM, in July 1957 -- 10 years almost to the day after the UFO incident that later made Roswell famous. Some of the NCOs who were there in 1947 were still there, and some of the officers had been stationed somewhere else and were back at Roswell. When I asked them about the UFO incident (usually at the bar in the Officers' Club, or at a party in someone's home), they typically said something like: "I can't talk about that, and if you quote me, I'll deny it, but I will say this much: It wasn't a weather balloon."

Poweress< Ben: Did you believe these people actually had information, or did you feel they were trying to appear that they had info that was important?

Ben< Poweress: They were men whose word I would accept for anything they wanted to say -- or not say. (I'm very quick to detect someone who is just puffing themselves up to look important.)

Poweress< Ben: OK, thanks. I just wondered, as I have encountered some who tend to pretend to know secret info to, as you say, puff themselves up. *smile*

Polgara< I have only second hand reports ... and a close friend who worked for Project Blue Book who supposedly went crazy and was locked up by the military and has not seen his family since.

the_Muse< I am rather a smorgasbord of the abduction experiences but my ability to state categorically who or what I am dealing with remains unproved. I have had dealings (I believe) with the government; the Zeta identified themselves but were disembodied, and grey cowled shadowy figures.

Yopo< 'Course, much of what I know, or think I know, of the world isn't based on first-hand observation.

Ben< Yopo: Yes, perceptive, as usual. You apparently see behind what I'm doing tonight. Testing of our own beliefs is the focus. UFO cover-up is the laboratory for tonight. *smile*

Kelianna< Testing of our own beliefs ... hummmm

the_Muse< What I can't figure is, if there is a cover-up, and I believe there is, what is the motivation? What is the profit?

Poweress< the_Muse: I think the problem is that the people in power feel threatened by something they perceive as a threat to their control.

the_Muse< Poweress: I think it is deeper than that, as there is also an apparent cover-up of ancient technology and civilizations. Zecheria Sitchin gives a lot of evidence for these two cover-ups being linked.

windy< the_Muse: re: Zecheria ... After all, somehow between the Vikings and Columbus, Europe apparently "forgot" a whole continent was out west of them.

5foot2< I can't speak first hand of UFO cover-ups, but history demonstrates the secretive, selective flow of information ... always of course, for the "common good" *cough cough* Is it happening with UFO's? If one makes the assumption that "alien-UFO's" exist, yes, the "powers that be" know more than they are sharing.

windy< It would seem there has been quite a cover-up of most of mankind's history, I agree. I think this all has been going on for a long time. Just why it is enfolding now as it is ... hmmmmm ...

the_Muse< Ben: Do you feel that seeing something unexplained is first hand experience? Nowadays haven't we all? Like those "ice crystals" filmed by the shuttle.

[Ben< the_Muse: Seeing something unexplained is a fairly common experience.]

SLIDER< Ben: Well, this might qualify -- when working out in the Nevada desert, as I mentioned last week, we had highway patrol tour our worksite quite often -- I don't know why -- and after asking about some of the things we saw, we were told, "You don't want to know" or "Just forget you saw anything."

[Ben< SLIDER: That's the type of first-person testimony I'm looking for. Thanks. It might be interesting to ask the highway patrol who told them to tell you that.]

windy< It's my belief that, if there is a cover-up by the government, it's not by choice, but because the aliens themselves have demanded it. I think that at first the government chose to cover up the UFO events until it better understood them itself ... but I think that after contact, it was more like a directive.

Tracey< The reasons for the government's 'cover-up' with UFO's would be the same as their reasons for not reporting the truth about the Vietnam War, I would suppose. They may have thought it was for 'the better good' but I feel it was more a form of control and making them look like they had all the answers.

Ben< ALL: Circumstantial evidence of a cover-up is more easily obtained than hard evidence. It could be something like a written report that doesn't match the inputs you (or someone you know) submitted to those who wrote the report. Has anyone here submitted a UFO report and then seen it reported otherwise than submitted? YOUR TURN

Poweress< Yes, from my earlier post, what many local people saw, including the local authorities, and the concrete evidence of the markings in the field, were all explained as something which did not fit -- namely, swamp gas.

the_Muse< Ben: I think the proof of a cover-up is the fact that any unexplained phenomenon is suppressed and pooh-poohed, as opposed to openly investigated. If there is no agenda, it seems there would be open discussion on the level of colleges and astronauts for a clearly unexplained phenomenon. So if they do not wish to discuss it on that basis, it seems a proof of a cover-up.

Tracey< the_Muse: Exactly! If there is something that smells of a cover-up, it is when we are told there is nothing to ''look into'' when reports have already been opened to the public through the media. The public is much more focused than the powers-that-be realize. *smile*

Polgara< Ben: Does catching the government in a lie constitute "firsthand information?"

Yopo< Polgara: Only firsthand information concerning the nature of the government. *smile*

the_Muse< Polgara: My point, much more succinctly put.

SLIDER< Ben: I've had to deal with the government many times during my life, and the one thing I've learned is, you can't trust anything government says or even puts on paper. That organization is very adept at changing the rules in midstream -- or after the fact!

Ben< I believe that Project Blue Book was a cover-up, because I was familiar with some of the cases and later saw how those same cases were explained away. For example, Blue Book explained what happened to Betty and Barney Hill by saying they were driving late at night, saw the gibbous moon, and became confused.

Polgara< I agree, Ben.

Dreamcatcher< I once read a story about a man from Los Alamos Laboratory who supposedly joined Area 51. After telling his friends about his experiences, the "men in black" erased his past and threatened to kill him. He went to the news before they could. He passed a lie detector test.

the_Muse< There is that green flare that was seen and filmed with a camcorder. It flew from Texas through to San Francisco, did a right hand turn, and fell in Rose Valley near China Lake NWC deep high security research area. It was explained as being "space debris". A blatant problem is the right hand turn. There was apparently a second level disinformation report that the object was actually a deeply secret test flight. This had a similar problem in having been filmed and appearing plasmoid. Why was that film not more widely aired? And why the stupid space debris disinformation?

windy< I think it is the nature of our civilization to "cover-up" the truth. To find an example of it in one form or another should not be so shocking.

STARX< Ben: Why do you think they have a need to cover up?

[Ben< STARX: That depends on who "they" are, and what they are covering up. Military technology is classified SECRET (or higher) in order to prevent potential enemies from developing countermeasures against it.]

Yopo< I'm not sure myself what conclusions could be drawn if we knew that a government cover-up was a fact. There might be other things going on: secret aircraft such as the Aurora, for example, or maybe even more exotic technologies. Some UFO sightings might be seen as dangerous, if they related to that sorta stuff.

windy< I am very curious about the holographic technology that is being developed. Couldn't some of the UFO sightings be connected with this technology?

the_Muse< Ben: Might this just be one of the "secrets" the prophets said would be revealed?

[Ben< the_Muse: Maybe. And not only prophets: some science fiction writers have published what turned out to be fairly accurate predictions.]

LEGS< Ben: I know you were mentioned in the original book on the Hill's case. Would you explain here in what context?

Ben< LEGS: I was a friend of Betty and Barney Hill. After I gave their church group a talk on hypnosis, they asked me to hypnotize them, to try to recover their three hours of lost memory, but I refused. I strongly recommended that they see a qualified hypnotherapist. I'm not a professional hypnotist. I have no credentials. As they told me their story, up to the point where their memories suddenly cut off, Barney's face kept twitching on one side. I'm not a psychologist or psychiatrist.

Tracey< Ben: But your gut feeling ... which you have learned to trust ... you believed Betty and Barney, didn't you?

Ben< Tracey: I don't go by gut feelings a whole lot. I was very skeptical of the Hill's story at first. Then, the next spring (1964), they brought the tapes they had made under hypnosis to my house, and my wife and I heard them at the same time the Hills first heard them without being under hypnosis. Hearing what was on those tapes, plus the fact they absolutely *didn't* want any publicity, was what convinced me they were telling the truth.

Tracey< Ben: Thank you. I go by my feelings. It is wise to investigate further, but intuition has been my life's road ... and I 'felt' you believed them ... hence the question. Thank you.

MOONDREAMS< One way to look at the cover-up is that Government doesn't know what the hell they are dealing with (if they are dealing with anything) and still don't. I suspect that they are just trying to blow it all off as if nothing ever happened and expect the rest to follow. Hollywood will take care of the rest. *S*

GreyHE< If you'd ever been through a military debriefing and told to keep your mouth shut, you do learn that they mean business ... take it from a first person experience.

Ben< GreyHE: Concerning military debriefings, yes, but a cover-up conspiracy is difficult to maintain. The more people involved, the more difficult it is to keep them all quiet.

GreyHE< Agreed, Ben. Fortunately, I was the only one at the time who knew what I was looking at, and what it meant (though I was just an Air Force brat).

Poweress< Frankly, I am a little confused as to why UFO's would be coming around and yet not making definitive contact. I mean, what would they want from us? If they have the technology to travel as far as they must to get here, we obviously are so far behind them that there is little we have to offer them.

MonaHawke< Poweress: Trying to figure others by our own reasoning, even if it is all we have to work with ... well, how could you know the thoughts or motivation of someone/thing you know nothing about?

Poweress< MonaHawke: You make a very good point, but I really only have my own form of reasoning to work with. *smile*

SLIDER< Poweress: Maybe there is a primary directive and we just don't know?

Luv4all< Poweress: That ought to tell us something, too. If they were here to conquer, they'd have done it already. If they're here to help, maybe they can only help if we ask them. Maybe there are some sort of "rules" involved. Maybe they can only help so much.

Poweress< SLIDER and Luv4all: Well, that sounds a little like Science Fiction. If they are under some sort of directive not to interfere, they would not really be entering our atmosphere.

MonaHawke< Poweress: They have made definitive contact with some.

Poweress< MonaHawke: Well, I understand that there have been such reports, but it seems to me that if these aliens really wanted to contact us, they would do so on a larger scale, for they certainly would have the capability, and if they don't, then why are they in our atmosphere at all? It concerns me a little, in the sense that it almost seems as if they are only coming for the purpose of using individuals as test subjects, almost like lab rats.

the_Muse< Poweress: I have a theory about why they have not made contact. Maybe sometime ...

Poweress< the_Muse: I would be interested to hear your theory.

the_Muse< Poweress: I think there is an investigation being done by the aliens that requires testing us as lab rats, and it is seeking evidence for illegal alien manipulation. So it would be hard to know which are testing for the investigation and which are doing the tampering. Just a theory, mind you.

windy< I think that if, as a whole, they were a benevolent force, the world would rapidly be becoming a better place ... not a worse one. I am tired of history and each other blaming us, mankind. Man is not a savage, wild, hostile beast. Man is docile and gentle, kind, and intelligent. It is oppression that has turned Man into a beast ... and it has been around a long time.

Luv4all< windy: Then we have to ask who benefits from this oppression?

Gracie< I looked, like others here, for a motive for a cover-up, on the GhostWolf site. I believe he [GhostWolf ] answered it -- money. From the Roswell site -- much information was gained to develop "polymer-like" materials used in military equipment, particularly by defense contractors and other large companies. Big money and big government are infamously bed partners.

rainbowraven< When I was a young kid, we saw a place in the road where the ship had landed in the night. It was perfectly round, and the gravel went to dust in my hands when I went to pick it up. Well, my father being the good ol' Air Force man he was, he called the Air Force, and they sent men there within a few hours. They took pictures. They took the dust. They took our pictures and the negatives, and told everyone to forget it happened ... but I know better. I saw it.

Ben< rainbowraven: Good example. Thanks.

Lor< Before saying the government is doing a cover-up, we have to realize that government personnel are almost never fully aware of what going on in the first place. There is just too much stuff going on to keep it all sorted out. But that is not to say that some official may use some regulation to try and hide certain info that comes to their attention, if it seems appropriate. I suspect we all might be tempted to keep quiet about something that might be taken by associates to be too far out if the circumstances so warranted.

Surya< The whole thrust of the government (especially the military) is to keep the masses in the dark. Just ask anyone who's gone through basic training. It's a control issue.

Tracey< Surya: Yes, my point exactly. The control issue is the main issue.

Luv4all< I agree on the control issue, but how long will "they" be able to maintain this control? I think it's only a matter of time. People are beginning to "wake up".

Tracey< Luv4all: I ask the same question, but they have been doing it for years and years. I wish I knew how long they could continue. I really think that is up to "us".

the_Muse< Ben: What makes it hard to keep it silent? Numbers have weighed against truths being revealed throughout time. The weight of opinion begins to have a life of its own. People grab clubs when the forbidden truth or rumor or theory is brought up. They become indoctrinated at the community level to the idea of suppressing such discussions. Or appear a kook, lose your job viability, etc.

[Ben< the_Muse: Cultural disinformation does take on a life of its own. But when more and more people have similar experiences, the difficulty of enforcing silence multiplies exponentially with the number of people involved. Plus, someone has to ride herd on the enforcers, to keep them silent.]

FRAML< ALL: In my time in the Army, I saw enough problems in keeping real world stuff secret, so I discount the TV Show mass conspiracy theories that many subscribe to.

the_Muse< FRAML: The government is very good at cover-ups, but in this case there is no "magic bullet" to present for evidence. And if there is, the government has it!

katzenbou< FRAML: You and I both know things we would not reveal from our respective military experience. Others with a higher level of knowledge might have things they would also hold dear to their hearts. Conspiracies are only as deep as the faith of the persons who hold them.

the_Muse< FRAML: On the subject of cover-ups, do you know whatever happened to that plane with the heavy air-to-ground munitions and four bombs that disappeared? They said "We think we found it" and then "no news" seems to be taken as the same thing as there is no news. Those munitions and bombs were big news. And someone has them! Cover-ups are easily and effectively managed.

[Ben< the_Muse: Search crews found the aircraft, but apparently not the bombs. I also would like to know what happened to those 4 bombs. But cover-ups (classified projects) are not easily managed. An effective cover-up is not even suspected by anyone outside a tiny, tightly-controlled group and the chain-of-command of those who need to know. Therefore, if there is a UFO cover-up -- as a lot of credible testimony indicates there is -- then that cover-up is not effectively managed.]

Poweress< All: This may be off the topic, but does anyone wonder if ETs are also from the same creator, and what the ramifications would be if they are, and if they are not?

the_Muse< Poweress: The Creator Created all, so anything that exists would share that, I believe.

Luv4all< Poweress: I didn't necessarily mean that they weren't allowed to "interfere" -- only that they have to be asked first, that they can't just come in uninvited. And yes, I am certain that we are all from the same creator.

SLIDER< Poweress: My personal feeling is all things are from one creator some of us haven't met yet, that's all!

Lor< The real fact is: no one really knows whether these aliens were or were not created by the same creator, and whether they are endowed with even similar motivations, let alone ethical inclinations. Only direct interaction can provide evidence as to their motivations and "thinking."

the_Muse< Lor: How could anything exist that the Creator did not Create?

Lor< the_Muse: My point was that no one has definite knowledge that there may actually be more than one creator, or that they therefore could not create things with different senses of responsibility, if any at all!

Luv4all< Lor: That can get into some deep philosophical thinking. If there are more than one, who created them? Or if there is only one, where did the one come from?

MOONDREAMS< Since there is not enough hard core evidence to prove anything, I feel that trying to get people to open their minds past what the media puts out is hard, very hard. Most people I talk to just agree about a conspiracy and forget about the whole issue. The problem with this is, if the government wants a cover-up, then they got one. To take action against the government about this is like throwing ants at an elephant to make it stop. Too many people are just blindsided and left behind.

Yopo< If there is in fact a grand cover-up, I'm inclined to think that those in control would also go through the motions of suppressing stories that aren't directly related to the real story. The best way to hide the truth is to lose it in a forest of credible misinformation.

LEGS< Yopo: Another way to discredit credible info is to turn out so much nonsense, and in big headlines like on the superstore magazines at the check-out aisles, that real info is put into the same category and automatically scoffed at.

MOONDREAMS< Right on, LEGS! My point exactly! That's my girl! *smile*

Tracey< LEGS: Yes, that is one of the things the Government is thankful for ... the rag mags at the checkout counter.

the_Muse< LEGS: Good point! And I think that is the exact mechanism used at the community level!

LEGS< The subtlety of causing all reports to appear ridiculous and absurd so that "thinking" individuals look down their noses on anything that remotely resembles UFO sightings or abduction tales, is accomplished by appealing to the snobbery of those who consider themselves more knowledgeable than the general public.

Tigerlily< Something very strange and scary can be suppressed by a natural collective fear, a sort of a denial, a psychological mechanism that can work on a mass scale. This doesn't have to be mass conspiracy, which I don't believe in either ... not really. I don't really know what to think. I am convinced the phenomenon of contact is real for some people, but it takes a lot of discernment, because I also feel sometimes UFO or ET contact may be like some sort of mass hallucination from the unconscious. It's a cauldron of intrigue, really.

Ben< ALL: Now let's consider the rumors of cover-up we have read or heard about. For example, name a specific book or media presentation on UFOs, and then say how credible you think it is -- and why. YOUR TURN

the_Muse< Ben: There was a recent "Best Video Evidence of UFO's" program that was aired on Fox. There was that Korean UFO seen by a huge city that was aired on the Korean and then US media.

PhnxFire< Didn't Fox also do a family abduction skit? (The actors were listed at the end.) "Lake" something.

Ben< I don't find Corso's book "The Day After Roswell" very credible, because he makes statements about the Air Force and the German scientists at Alamogordo that I know to be errors. I started to make a list of his errors, but quit after I had filled several pages. For example, he doesn't even have the names of the Air Force units right. I know the German scientists at Alamogordo because I was stationed there and worked with them for three years (1966-1969).

MOONDREAMS< I'm really into Whitley Streiber's books and his accounts. I have no reason to disbelieve him (since it was his first book "Communion" that really opened my eyes), but I don't follow him like a religious fanatic, like I used to. Too many unanswered questions.

Polgara< Ben: I personally liked "Close Encounters of the Fourth Kind: Alien Abduction, UFOs, and the Conference at MIT" by CDB Bryan.

Poweress< The report I have seen that seems most credible is the one speaking of Roswell and Area 51. I am sure most of you have heard most of the details. For me, I do not have trouble believing the government would cover things up, as it seems from my experience that is really their general way of coping, particularly the military branch, as they are conditioned to desire secrecy. What actually made me most believe that it was a cover up, was the explanation that they finally came up with years after the stories had been circulating. They decided that this entire phenomenon was created from weather balloons, and I could not believe they would come up with such a lame answer. That didn't even answer one tenth of the reports. Also, even though I don't have much more faith in the credibility of the media than the government, I did think it rather damning that, after they claimed they were willing to open up the files and hand them over to the investigative team, most of the files were blacked out rather crudely. I must admit I am a bit puzzled. I would think our government could at least be clever enough to put on a better show for their cover-up.

MonaHawke< Poweress: Also, if you had direct experience and knowledge of aliens, what would be the best you could expect to happen by talking about it publicly? Friends and family scoffing and ridiculing? Loss of job or credibility? MIB's popping into your life perhaps? Not too encouraging, really.

the_Muse< Poweress: Clearly that incident is definitive proof of a cover-up. They admit they covered up the truth. What they covered we do not know, but changing their tune and saying "crash dummies" is the proof of a cover-up, of something ... something that did occur.

Luv4all< Has anyone here read any of the info on this website concerning aliens and their motivations? There are some very interesting theories available here. [http://www.spiritweb.org]

Yopo< Perhaps visiting aliens might be some equivalent of cultural anthropologists. They might be taking pains not to let their presence affect the primitive culture they are studying ... but making a botch of it. *LOL*

windy< Yopo: Making a botch of it, indeed! (LOL) Nice bit of understatement. Thanks for inserting such a giggle into here. Alien talk can be so depressing.

Luv4all< If they do exist, I tend to think that there are many different "factions" with many different motivations -- some positive, some negative.

greyman< Hummm. Is the prime directive (not to interfere with a civilization) an act of kindness or just a plan not to violate the uncertainty principle, so that the civilization can be studied without disturbing it?

Ben< I found Von Daniken's books "Chariots of the Gods" and "Gods From Outer Space" interesting at first, but then less and less credible. The more he wrote, the less I believed anything he wrote.

Yopo< Ben: Seems I recall reading that there is a term for the modern German (?) fictional genre that Von Daniken was working in ... one that involves presenting credible information that is patently false.

Ben< Yopo: This world is absolutely full of fiction presented as fact. Ways to discern the difference between fiction and fact is what I've been working on (tonight and most of my life).

MOONDREAMS< Sorting fact from fiction is too tough a job on this subject.

Yopo< Ben: You're better at it than I, I suspect. With me, the question "What is truth?" is always followed immediately by "How will I know it if I find it?" *smile*

Tracey< Yopo: Listen to your heart. You will know the truth as it whispers in your ear. *smile*

Ben< Yopo: Well, sometimes a truth sorta slaps ya upside the head ... but in subjects like this, the question is not absolute truth, but the degree of credibility (and thus reliability) of various opinions and speculations.

the_Muse< Ben: Yes, and also a lot of fact is presented as fiction. Or it would not get published.

Ben< the_Muse: Yes, good point. Fact is often presented as fiction. I still see the same challenge to sort it out, though.

SLIDER< Ben: I've read all of Sitchen's books and how he correlates the stories of the Bible to his history. And then I've re-read most of the Bible and find it not unbelievable. I think the UFO's have always been here, and they are part of our heritage.

Luv4all< SLIDER: I agree, although I have only read the first of Sitchen's books. The idea that we are somehow genetically engineered seems at least plausible to me -- and I don't think any of these "aliens" are here to just observe. I think they have a vested interest in what happens here.

SLIDER< Luv4all: I think the visitors made a jump in evolution to their advantage then lost control of what they created -- (old testament) -- were reprimanded by a higher source -- (new testament) -- and now want to help reconcile their mistakes -- but there are others that want to witness the outcome -- (today's new UFO's).

Luv4all< SLIDER: I tend to agree, except that I believe there have been some who had a vested interest in keeping us existing in chaos and fear -- for their own benefit -- and it is these who are trying to hold onto what they've had for a very long time. We are in the last death throes of their hold over us. It is a critical time to be alive, I think.

UBLUV< ALL: IMHO there have been UFOs here for as long as there has been life. Remember the Bible story about Elias: it is described that he was whisked away to the skies in a fiery chariot, which might be what a UFO would look like to the people of the time who knew of no such technology. Now IMHO as below, so above. I would categorize the ships in two major groups, like humanity, those who serve their own purpose, and those who serve Divine Law. There are physical ships, and there are light ships. Many physical ships have offensive weaponry. The light ships that serve Divine Will have no need for such things. In recent United Nations talks in which Bob Hoagland made an extensive presentation, a transmission from Mars was presented in which it was shown that a craft came around the satellite with the camera, and shot at it and blew it up. This really concerned the UN and those present, because for the first time in history the external governments had irrefutable evidence that there was something out there which the secret government (MJ-12, the Illuminati, The Bildebergers, or what ever you choose to call them) had been covering up from them for many years. There has been secret dealing with the not-so-nice aliens, from early in this century, in which MJ-12 made a deal with them, of technology for abduction permission. This technology is what the Philadelphia and Montauk experiments are about. Fortunately, there are many Loving beings from other systems here on our side to uphold the Divine Plan for our Mother Earth, among them are Ashtar, the Sirians, Arcturians, Andromedans, Pleiadians, and several others. The entire Archangel Core also travel in their Light ships, also known as MerKaBa.

Luv4all< UBLUV: Thank you!

FRAML< I get tired of all the cover-up and government conspiracy talk. Many folks use it because they don't want to investigate the facts for themselves, or if they want to believe but can't, they use "government cover-up of the facts" as a tool to overcome their doubts.

Tigerlily< There's some pretty credible stuff written, though. A Harvard shrink, Robert Mack, started believing in the whole thing after helping people with hypnosis. Robert Temple, a classics professor in England, wrote the Sirius Mystery, about how the Dogon tribe in Africa has knowledge of and worships the Sirius star system (without the help of telescopes), and the tribe talks of contact thousands of years ago in Egypt and Greece. I NEVER used to be into this stuff ... but never say never. *smile*

Ben< These 3 books I consider credible, because they cross-check with things that I believe based on personal experience and first-person testimony: John Fuller, "The Interrupted Journey" and "Incidents At Exeter." Kevin Randle and Donald Schmitt, "UFO Crash At Roswell."

Tracey< Ben: Yes ... good books, indeed. Thanks for posting the titles.

Yopo< I was impressed by the first of the Whitley Strieber books. Later additions to the series seem harder to take seriously.

MOONDREAMS< I also find Bud Hopkins to be a credible witness for contactees.

Storm_Lady< Yopo and Moondreams: I really think so. It may sound weird, but you never know.

the_Muse< Whitley Strieber and Von Daniken may have started with a passion for the subject, but soon the realization of the profits they got from those books changed the target of their passion. So, in the desire to churn out more books, they became less credible as they reached deeper into the barrel for material.

[Ben< the_Muse: Good point, well stated. I think that's exactly what happened.]

MOONDREAMS< Yopo: The only Strieber book I couldn't swallow wholeheartedly was his last one, "The Secret School". Still trying to figure that one out (like that will ever happen).

the_Muse< But as a former CIA man, Whitley Strieber is suspicious as a source, for me anyway.

MOONDREAMS< the_Muse: When was Whitley Strieber a CIA agent?

the_Muse< Moondreams: While writing his first fiction ... what was it? ... "The Howling" ... and after he was successful, he quit the CIA. Public record.

MOONDREAMS< the_Muse: Thanks for the info. Never knew that before.

katzenbou< Roswell is perhaps the #1 (GI) example of UFO phenomena. If it is not credible, why are there all the military retirees who are talking about it after all these years? and all the civilians also? But then might that all be part of the disinformation campaign staged by the military to discredit the entire spectrum of events at other locations, meaning all these persons might be part of the cover-up themselves?

Luv4all< Well, one thing's for certain: no matter what the government admits or doesn't admit, that won't change the truth.

Tracey< Luv4all: Well said.

SLIDER< Luv4all: All I can say is, when we find the real truth, it is probably something that is so far from what those who would rule through disinformation have lead the general populace to believe -- through fear, greed, and self serving desires -- that we will all feel foolish!

Tigerlily< About 3 years ago I was hired to do publicity for a talk by Robert Dean, a retired Army man who is now hell-bent to expose the truth. This was in a small community. I made the posters and wrote the news releases, and I thought no one would come. The place was mobbed. All kinds of people came ... little old ladies, hippies, teachers ... you name it. PEOPLE ARE REALLY compelled by this subject ... made a believer out of me.

Luv4all< Tigerlily: Well that is certainly encouraging!

Ben< /topic Discussion of UFOs and the critters that drive them: government cover-up?

Storm_Lady< My sister believes she is visited by what one would call an alien, and I still believe when I was a child that I was, too.

Lor< Based on second-hand info via a friend I trust, I suspect that alien spacecraft do exist. However, I also suspect that the aliens possibly lack ethical principles like we have been accustomed to expect of others -- more like how some animals get curious about us, but don't generally feel motivated to try to help us.

Storm_Lady< I think the sky is the limit to anyone, and you just never know what is out there. We still don't know about outer space. We don't know what the future will be. Maybe we will all end up on a space ship like Star Trek or babylony.

windy< Hey, I wouldn't believe my own life, if it wasn't happening to me! and sometimes I'm not even sure.

GreyHE< What about the theory that UFOs are really black projects put on by the government? After witnessing an UFO myself, I tend to think this theory has some credit.

Yopo< GreyHE: I think some sightings are surely that ... advanced aircraft and the like. I wonder about some abduction reports, too, thinking of some of the weird projects of the past, and rumored stuff of the present: the M K Ultra project, experiments with magnet pulse devices to create mental confusion and memory lapses, etc.

windy< magnet pulse devices ... yikes! Sure makes one want to believe in magic. That and prayer and faith seem to be one's only protection anymore.

katzenbou< GreyHE: I once saw a UFO deep out at sea. I feel it was a military plane on a secret mission. This was in the early 80's and the plane I saw has since been declassified. There may be many military projects that are advanced enough to be seen as extraterrestrial.

windy< I think if there is a government cover-up, the media must be in on it big-time ... or it wouldn't be much of a cover-up.

the_Muse< windy: Yes, and since the media is owned by the same wealthy men that own the governments and get together at the Bilderburger, that isn't much of a stretch is it?

GreyHE< The government can use the media to their gain. This was proved during Desert Storm.

Storm_Lady< The government will never let us in and know what they know, so it is up to us to find out on our own. I believe that there is something out there. There always has been and always will be.

Tracey< Storm-Lady: Yes, you are right. They are very busy "protecting us" so if truth is to be known, it will need to come for our own sources.

Storm_Lady< Tracey: I think it is up to us to find out what our future holds. This is a bunch of B.S. that they won't tell us what is going on in our own environment. We live here, too.

Tracey< Storm_Lady: Yes, we live here, but they see us as the children and they as the parent, and they will decide what TV shows we can watch. It has been this way forever, but more so in the last 25 years. Only we can change it. You are right. *S*

Gracie< Has anyone ever seen a multi-ship sighting? I saw one in 1991. The larger ship held stationary, and smaller ones flew around and up and down and in all directions. Many, many people reported it to the nearby Air Force base ... no recognition ... no explanation.

MonaHawke< Gracie: I have seen more than one at a time ... many in fact ... but hard saying exactly what they were.

Ben< Gracie: I knew a lot of Air Force pilots who wouldn't turn in UFO reports -- not because of any pressure or threat, but because they saw how previous reports were distorted and explained away.

Gracie< Ben: I know what you mean. I thought long and hard before reporting it ... it was the second time. I also saw the one in Muncie, IN, in about 1973 that "Close Encounters of the Third Kind" was based on. It was huge and absolutely undeniable. You asked why is this becoming such a popular topic ... because so many people have seen one or more and the numbers outweigh the government's ability to explain it away. I'm not afraid. I know what I saw. I don't have an explanation ... I don't know that I need one ... I know what I saw.

Ben< Gracie: "The numbers outweigh the government's ability to explain away" and so it seems, but sometimes I wonder if the (so terribly weak) explanations aren't intended to have the opposite effect -- to keep the matter open and gradually condition the public without actually making an announcement of alien contact.

the_Muse< Gracie: I have seen four sightings with four different individuals and countless when I was alone. I have never reported one. I have no credibility, having a mental record. And if your reputation is such that you might be credible, then you have too much to lose, like your very credibility! It's ironic, if you think about it.

Gracie< the_Muse: I am not concerned about my credibility. I am not trying to convince anyone of anything. My stance is that I know what I saw. In the 1973 sighting in Muncie, IN, there were some 100 or so college students who all saw the same thing in one location, and many more elsewhere. I don't need or desire publicity. I don't need confirmation. I know what I saw.

the_Muse< Gracie: I understand. I was talking about the fact that with my mental record, if I came forth with a winged child of an alien, the "powers that be" would find some way to pooh-pooh it. I wonder if this was the goal. I can be contacted at any time, and it makes absolutely no difference, because I am not a credible witness in the eyes of the government or media, and hence, the public. So why bother reporting?

5foot2< The government can use anyone to present a scene that leads the viewers down a certain path, the path they have chosen. It is up to us to judge the motives of all those involved. I saw a bumper sticker once that read "I'm not afraid of aliens; it's humans that scare me."

Tracey< 5foot2: *smile* It is humans that scare me, too.

windy< I wonder what we all mean when we say "government". Do we mean the politicians? the Congress, the Supreme Court, the Executive Branch? do we mean the military, the CIA, the FBI? I mean, what or which part of the government? I mean, Clinton's the President, and he sure doesn't seem to have much control over the media. On the other hand, Bush sure seemed to ...

the_Muse< windy: Skull and Bones may have given him an edge? I was thinking the same thing. I do not believe the government of the US is anything but a puppet of another group that use borders and loyalties like pawns on a chessboard.

GreyHE< windy: Government has no recognizable control point from within. During Desert Storm, the media was used to make the general populace think that the war was very one-sided, when in fact both sides suffered tremendous loss of life and machinery.

[Ben< GreyHE: In keeping with the exercise for tonight, on what do you base the statement: "In fact both sides suffered tremendous loss of life and machinery" ? ]

the_Muse< We the public have been indoctrinated into the belief that Truth is decided by majority opinion. And the majority believes what men in prominence tell them, and men get to positions of prominence by secret handshakes and subtle concessions to the will of those above them. It is the rare sheep that strikes out to think for itself.

Tracey< the_Muse: Very well said. I totally agree.

Luv4all< the_Muse: I sure hope that is not true. I like to believe that more and more people are beginning to strike out on their own!

Ben< the_Muse: Baaaaaa! *smile*

the_Muse< Ben: Baaaa indeed ... *smile*

windy< the_Muse: I think that individually and collectively we are more powerful than many other countries, but our psyche is being worn down as our "veils" are lifted. It is difficult to realize the truth and still feel powerful.


MOONDREAMS< All I know is truths have a way of surfacing and coming out, and I believe someday the truth about all this will be out. *S*

Storm_Lady< I just hope that everyone knows that the government (I am sure) is reading this. Not that it matters to me. And that these damn computers is their way to control us and keep an eye on us. Beware! *smile*

MOONDREAMS< Storm_Lady, Everybody: Wave to the camera ... *smile*

Yopo< Storm_Lady: (*Yopo glances nervously around the room*) Uh, thanks. *LOL*

MOONDREAMS< ... (sticking tongue out at camera) ... *S*

Storm_Lady< Moondreams: We just saw you. LOL! Just kidding.

MOONDREAMS< ... (blushing) ... *G*

Polgara< **Polgara sends a bolt of light at camera ... just after she distracts them with a full moon** ... ! **smile** (Baa-aa-aa!)

GreyHE< THE GLARE!!!!! hehehehe

5foot2< Storm_Lady: The "government" should be nervous of the Internet. It links us together ... no more selectively supplied information. *grin*

Storm_Lady< 5foot2: That is a good thing, and I won't down that it unites billions of people together, but I also just wonder sometimes if there isn't something else behind this thing we call a computer.

the_Muse< Storm_Lady: Just because you are paranoid does not mean they are not watching you!

Luv4all< There is no way to control the Internet -- short of dismantling the entire global communication system -- and it DOES link us all together -- from all over the world. THIS will bring with it major changes in human society, just as every other major advance in communication has -- printing press, telegraph, radio, TV, telephone, etc.

windy< (sigh) the Internet is a doubled-edged sword.

UBLUV< The Mayans of the period before 830 AD were great space travelers. Many think they were less developed because they didn't use the wheel, or use farm animals, but they could travel the planet, the solar system, and the galaxy at will in their light ships (MerKaBa). Now there are advanced civilizations in this solar system on several planets, in the 4th 5th and 6th dimensions, including Venus, Mars and Saturn. Because of the thought/feeling patterns of the collective consciousness of this planet, we have been quarantined for thousands of years. Soon, we will rejoin the planetary and galactic community, as soon as we loose the desire to conquer and kill; in other words, as soon as the human race grows up as a whole (ascension).

[Ben< UBLUV: On what do you base those statements?]

LEGS< The craft I saw that were triangular shaped have drawn comments that perhaps it was the stealth bomber, but there were several and this was long before they came out with it. And if it was nevertheless our stealth bombers, with many escorting this huge ship, then the huge ship has not yet come out of hiding, and if it wasn't ours, then government cover-up was here at that time.

Yopo< LEGS: Aurora (a pulse-jet aircraft that supposedly reaches the upper fringes of the atmosphere and can reach speeds of mach 18) is rumored to be a perfect black triangle.

LEGS< Yopo: Did they have that craft (even in experimental stage, perhaps) in 1983 or 84?

Yopo< LEGS: 1983 or 84? I doubt that. Aurora is supposedly cutting edge. Stealth aircraft of triangular shape were flying then, however. I remember the first time I saw a stealth fighter in flight, then on the ground. The configuration was so unfamiliar, I wasn't sure just WHAT I was looking at.

LEGS< Yopo: I didn't want to go beyond Ben's rules last week, about being first person once removed, but I have heard this, like twice removed, from one of my co-workers a couple of years ago. Her sister had been to Austin, and while there had to pick up a niece flying in to the airport. Well, traffic as usual was very heavy and it was just after the noon hour. They had gotten the niece, and were out of the airport when the traffic stopped. The ground suddenly became covered with shadow from something above. The traffic could not resume, several cars with electric ignitions were stalled, and on top of that, all the traffic lights had gone out completely. People were getting out of their cars looking at the sky. The sister did also, thinking it was a tornado. What they saw was a huge disk-shaped craft that was simply in the air above the airport. It was not a blimp, the sister insisted, and it was not trying to land, but was just there, as they were also, for about 45 or 50 minutes. Then the thing went straight up and disappeared, still zooming up, in a matter of seconds. People got back in their cars. The lights came back on, and the driving resumed. No one wanted to talk about it. I believe it for one reason ...

MonaHawke< LEGS: That's pretty interesting. The Phoenix story was pretty interesting, where hundreds saw the lights. The Governor ordered an investigation, but a day or two later appeared at a news conference with someone next to him dressed as an alien making jokes about the sightings. Very strange...

LEGS< Yopo: The reason I believe it is, this sister is a real tightwad, but for two weeks after she returned home the day after this happened, she bought the big city papers daily, watching for a report of the incident. It never showed up, and it had not been on the evening news in Austin, either.

Yopo< LEGS: *LOL* The testimony of a tightwad! *smile* Yes, when someone's behavior is suddenly out of character, you can figure there's good reason for it.

windy< LEGS: Your sister's story is the point I was trying to make about the media. If there is a cover-up, I think the media must be as aware of it, or more aware of it, than the government (as a whole). How can these events occur and we not hear it? (and instead have to listen to the latest accusation against Clinton ... over and over and over. )

LEGS< windy: A clarification ... the sister was sister of my co-worker, not my own sister. And I agree ... I have heard it explained that there is an energy at such sightings that goes to everyone and encourages them to forget it happened ... but that as well seems hard to swallow.

Luv4all< windy: Makes you wonder, doesn't it? I personally haven't been watching TV since this whole "scandal" started. I don't want to hear about it, and I certainly don't want to have to "explain" it to my kids. Such a waste of energy -- but an excellent distraction -- which is, I think, the point, unfortunately.

windy< Luv4all: I totally agree on the children issue. It's incredible that the media should go into such detail on a daily basis, and all on hearsay, no evidence. If I was Clinton, I'd sue.

[Ben< This was before Monica's blue dress with the DNA evidence was reported.]

the_Muse< Oh, I just remembered one of the seriously credible reports I saw: the test missile firing that was being photographed by a military specialist who accidentally caught a UFO. Do you remember the one I am talking about? I can't think of the details off hand.

windy< the_Muse: I think that it was on Sightings this past week. They interviewed the man who was in charge of the filming. He couldn't explain the unidentified object. After he told them that, they told him their meeting didn't take place and the film didn't exist.

Ben< ALL: Don't forget to set your clocks forward one hour tonight.

Yopo< Ben: Suppose all on the net were to agree NOT to turn ahead their clocks. Time for the denizens of cyberspace to RISE UP, by not rising up! *LOL*

MOONDREAMS< Yopo: It would only cause me to lose my job. *S*

Yopo< MOONDREAMS: Your boss isn't on-line? *smile* I keep waiting for some sort of synchronized on-line event that will suddenly demonstrate the power of this global connection and community. Hope it doesn't turn out to be something like Orson Wells' Invasion from Mars radio broadcast. *LOL*

MOONDREAMS< Heard that, Yopo. *S*

Lor< No one is likely going to convince me that the media and all the government folks can get together on a cover-up. The media people are too much at each others throats trying to beat out the other one with some new revelation that will sell and make their bosses rich. It just is not going to happen. Too many people tend to get paranoid about anything that should be kept secret for perfectly legitimate reasons that often have little to do with these peoples fears, warranted or not. OK?

the_Muse< Lor: Their bosses are already rich. And they lose profits if they lose control. The rich men produce the shows, and buy the advertising, and own the networks that broadcast them. It is only in the last few years that an unknown could get a movie made. Or shown.

GreyHE< Lor: They don't get together. The government has ways of allowing the media to see only what they want them to see.

Tracey< Lor: The important stuff does not get to the media. Do you not think the government can control info within it's own ranks before it gets to be public knowledge?

Lor< No way, Tracey -- government folks are mere humans, and really leave too many hints about their secret stuff around that can be picked up by anyone with the drive to do so, for any thorough cover-up to work over any long period of time.

Tracey< Lor: I understand what you are saying, but I think you may be under estimating the ability of power to keep secrets. Even the ones who want to tell have their families and careers to think about. It gets very complicated. But the military did have big-time secrets. I know this. And they did keep them quite well.

Poweress< Personally, I think there have probably been legitimate sightings of UFO's and possibly there really was a crash of an alien space ship in Area 51, but I also believe that just like everything else in our capitalistic society, when news or rumors of these things come out, you will always get plenty of people who want to cash in on the latest public interest. UFO's is a perfect opportunity for someone to make up a story and write a book about it, or to sell it to a television studio for a documentary. You can always use the explanation of not being able to document your evidence because there is a cover up. So there is probably a lot of false info, as well as some real info out there.

[Ben< Poweress: Nice summary.]

the_Muse< Ben: So where do we go with this? The thing I find so many assume, which I feel cannot be assumed by any, is that there is one group of aliens, or that the weirdnesses are even "alien". Many weirdnesses might be time travel or alternate reality. Could be some UFOs are not craft but animals that dwell in space? Space is not the void we were taught it is in school.

Ben< the_Muse: Next time I plan to look at discarnate ETs (ghosts of UFO-drivers and astral-realm beings that don't need vehicles such as UFOs).

the_Muse< Ben: Cool! I look forward to it.

Yopo< Ben: Ah, sounds interesting! I actually find that idea more credible than traveling via technology. My own suspicion is that we tend to project a veneer of technology over such encounters, because that is where our own heads are presently at.

Gracie< Ben: I'd like to think that some things have changed with our generation since the Nixon fall. I think we will no longer accept being treated like children by the government. Who needs them to make decisions for us? ... at least I hope not. Hopefully, this change will bring about more openness, like Pentagon papers, etc. Ben, have you heard anything about President Clinton being denied access to Project Blue Book files?

Ben< Gracie: I haven't heard that Clinton was denied access to UFO files, but I wouldn't be surprised. Neither he nor most of his administration could pass a real background investigation for a security clearance.

katzenbou< Ben: Ain't that the truth!

Gracie< Ben: Clinton denied access to info was in a press release by McClendon on-line the other night. QUESTION: where did stealth technology come from?

Yopo< I think stealth technology dates back to the early '80s. Blackbird does.

GreyHE< The original "stealth" technology that is declassified goes back to early spy planes (can't remember their designation) which led to the development of the Blackbird.

Gracie< I asked about stealth technology because I believe I read somewhere that either the Roswell craft or the Area 51 craft had that capability. Stanley Krubrick (Andromedia Strain) suggested as much in the early 1960's and Arthur C. Clarke in the 50's.

maju/BP< Gracie: The craft that crashed by Roswell was oval shaped, and there have been more craft flown out of Area 51 than birds that fly south for the winter!

grunblau< Some of the stealth technology was being developed in the 50's, and the black aircraft have always been for recon: to see across the border and catch what the neighbors are doing. That is what Aurora is: a spy plane, the replacement to the Blackbird.

GreyHE< Stealth technology was in active use before the Vietnam War.

Ben< GreyHE: Yeah, we were experimenting with radar-absorbing paint before the Vietnam war, but stealth technology like the F-117 and B-2 was a painstaking research and development project. [The first contract for the F-117 stealth fighter was signed in 1977. First flight was 18 June 1981. And yes, it was kept secret for almost ten years before it was used in the Persian Gulf War.]

GreyHE< Problem with official military aircraft is that they are ten years behind in technology. Takes that long to clear the technology for use. So why not build an installation that isn't restricted by such clearances and red tape, to see just how far we can go?

[Ben< GreyHE: As you probably know, that installation is the Lockheed "Skunk Works" at Burbank, CA. And yes, their flight test site is in the desert.]

Yopo< I sorta think true stealth technology doesn't predate the microchip. Durn things couldn't be flown without computers.

Ben< Yopo: Stealth geometry took a lot of computer capability to design. And as you say, flight computers are essential for those aircraft.

[Ben< Stealth technology isn't magic or mysterious or a Klingon cloaking device. It is engineering. Every part of the aircraft is carefully designed so as to minimize the amount of radar energy it reflects back to any radar searching for it. Similar detailed attention is paid to minimizing the infrared and acoustic signatures. See: "Skunk Works: A Personal Memoir Of My Years At Lockheed" by Ben R. Rich (Little, Brown & Company, 1994). He was in charge of this program.]

Hvy_Petals< What the military needs to do is apologize for 50 years of negligence. Incredible how they just left the population to fend for themselves. How many abductees commit suicide in their powerlessness to prevent being stolen and raped by these aliens? Frankly, I can't believe professional soldiers could do such a thing. Makes me wonder who's really in control of this country.

GreyHE< Professional soldiers are trained to take orders and not think about them. If told to jump, they don't ask "how high?" they just jump and hope it's high enough.

[Ben< GreyHE: That's in boot camp, but very seldom thereafter. I wouldn't be here if I had blindly obeyed every order I received, and neither would most veterans.]

Yopo< GreyHE: I seem to recall a drill sergeant who told me something along those lines. I think his post would have been all in capital letters, however. *LOL*

GreyHE< 1 ... 2 ... 3 ... 4 ... I LOVE MARINE CORE! *LOL* Of course by your post, Yopo, I would say either Army or Air Force in your case.

Yopo< GreyHE: Army. The green Yopo of yesterday is not the green Yopo of today. *smile*

GreyHE< Never entered military myself. 17 years of being brought up in the Air Force was more than enough for me.

windy< Good nite and pleasant journeys to all who are leaving or have left. :-) And before I leave, I would like to say on the aliens' behalf (because I know you are watching or will be reading this later, and I feel it needs to be said): "aliens" (for lack of a better word) though of a different culture and genetic breed, are basically not all that different. They are good and bad, smart and not so smart, experience fear and, thanks to us, joy and hope. We are not in this alone. There are not good and bad races of aliens anymore than there are good and bad ethnic human groups. I hope someday we live together in a world of joy and peace and freedom.

Tracey< windy: My hope as well. Love and light, dear one.

the_Muse< windy: I do think there are laws that govern space flight that are enforced. I suspect they have been being violated, though. You know my hubbie and I have really studied the conspiracy to cover-up previous civilizations, and it seems clearly linked to the cover-up of UFO's. We just can't really get a handle on how something like this could go on for so long. But history makes no sense without this theory.

Luv4all< windy: There is an alternative way of thinking, in that WE are bound by our linear concepts of time and there are those who exist outside of time, and that they are actually further evolved than us. We are so limited in this existence -- so bound to the physical, which is one of the things we need to recognize and overcome, because, IMO, we are spiritual beings having a physical experience. It is not the other way around.

the_Muse< Luv4all: It is frustrating, and goes back to that double-edged sword post. When you begin to believe, and then see so much evidence for so much manipulation, it can make you feel so powerless.

Luv4all< the_Muse: That is something I have begun to discover for myself recently, and I agree with you wholeheartedly. I DO believe that there are those who benefit -- and have been for quite some time -- thousands of years even.

the_Muse< Luv4all: I find a real problem with this idea of those "outside" time being more involved or having any interaction with us. I do not believe that a person can interact in a linear sense with a creature that exists in the Aum of no time/all time. For one to do so, that being would have to enter matter/gravity/time. Or one would have to leave it. And if either being leaves or enters time, then that situation of contacting a being outside of time has not occurred. Seems a paradox.

Luv4all< the_Muse: Very true -- is full of paradox!

windy< the_Muse: I have only recently come to an understanding about an alien presence on this planet. It took much to convince me (I used to joke that I believed all UFOs were made in China), but a lot of what convinced me were the myths, legends, and oral histories of many different cultures. As for the connection you speak of, it is not clear to me ... perhaps we can discuss it another time. I think it would make an interesting topic here. (Perhaps Ben is still listening?)

the_Muse< Ben: I have been musing a great deal lately on the line one draws where their ability to suspend disbelief stops. Like angels, yes, but dragons, no? Or unicorns and werewolves? yes or no? When you open your mind to the realm of possibility, where do you close it?

Ben< the_Muse: Opening one's mind to possibilities is the starting point for inquiry, not the process or the destination. Some folks are too gullible, but on the other hand, a closed mind stagnates.

the_Muse< Ben: For me, the idea is that until you have all the facts, you have no real good spot to draw the line. So I have A class theories, B class, C class. LOL

MonaHawke< Ben: In your work with discarnates, how many do you run into that are 'not of this world' so to speak? And how do you know they are 'alien'?

Ben< MonaHawke: Some discarnates say they have never incarnated. And some of them lie. No matter what they say they are, unless one convinces me otherwise, I assume it's a human ghost pretending to be something else -- like, for example, a UFO driver. *smile*

MonaHawke< Ben: Have any convinced you otherwise?

Ben< MonaHawke: Yes. More than a few. But I'm always alert for the pretense.

MonaHawke< Ben: Of the ones who have convinced you, what did they convince you of? That they were alien, or had never incarnated?

Ben< MonaHawke: Some in each of those two categories.

Yopo< Ben: Daemons, angels, elementals, little folk, some "aliens" ... do you think of them as all being one or another sort of discarnate being?

Ben< Yopo: Yes, all the categories you listed are discarnate beings.

Yopo< Ben: Hmm. Then I wonder to what extent we can categorize and classify, to what extent our perceptions are artificial. One man's angel is another man's alien? I suspect your own classification must depend more upon moral intent than appearance.

[Ben< Yopo: Good questions. However, instead of trying to discuss them now, I'd like to look into that whole subject area in the next session (18 April).]

Ben< ALL: Thanks for another interesting evening. Peace and blessings to each of you. Namaste. *poof*

[Several conversations have been deleted]

Yopo< My own perspective (a dim one) is of the Universe as a temporal object of indescribable beauty and complexity, with all points in time and space linked together in an eternal moment. Consciousness localizes, and passes through those links, illuminating each bit sequentially, giving the impression of Time.

MonaHawke< wow, Yopo, that's large, man.

MERLIN_1< Deep in thought.

windy< Yopo: Your perspective on the Universe sounds pretty accurate to me. It would seem to be so.

Luv4all< An awesome thought, Yopo!

windy< Yopo: It seems to me that within that perspective, a series of lives builds on one another, having aspects of "former" lives contiguous with "present" lives, with changes based on the enfolding of one's being (evolution).

Yopo< windy: Perhaps. I'm not at all sure what the nature of our true selves may be. Much of our personalities may be confined to the particular lifetime. We may be more closely akin to the light that shines through the frames of a movie film, than to the film itself.

09. Understanding ET's
Session 3: Sat 18 Apr 1998

Ben< ALL: Okay, let's go. To set up a framework for our discussion of this topic, I have five very short paragraphs to post before the first question.

Ben< Extra-terrestrial (ET) means "not of this world; not of or from the planet Earth."

Ben< Discarnate means "living, but not in a physical body; incorporeal; as, for example, an angel, ghost, demon, or some other type of disembodied spiritual entity.

Ben< First observation: UFO-drivers are incarnate beings, not discarnate beings. They have physical bodies. That is why they need a vehicle (UFO) to move their bodies from one place to another and from one planet to another.

Ben< Second observation: "discarnate terrestrial" refers to the soul or spirit of any life-form that ever lived in a physical body (incarnated) on planet Earth. Thus, human ghosts are not ET's even though some of them pretend they are.

Ben< Definition: a discarnate ET does not have a physical body now, and did not live in a physical body on this planet. That is the subject area for tonight.

Ben< ALL: Can you think of any examples, classes, or categories of beings that could be described as, "discarnate and extra-terrestrial"? YOUR TURN

LightGrrl< Angels?

Polgara< Would Angels be, Ben?

Yopo< Hmm ... Would angels and demonic beings then fit that definition?

Ben< LightGrrl, Polgara, Yopo: Yes.

Azriel< Gods/Goddesses, Angels

Ben< Azriel: Hmmm. Well, yes, but humans have also made gods of the ghosts of their ancestors -- even Roman emperors, for example.

windy< Sub-space entities?

FRAML< What about the "little people"?

SLIDER< Perhaps a lost discarnate from a crashed UFO -- doesn't know how to return to original place and no genetic body to reincarnate to?

windy< Elementals?

MonaHawke< Some of the channelings I see on the lists claim to be entities who have never incarnated on earth and claim to be from Orion or some other place.

FRAML< MonaHawke: I've had the "feeling" from reading some of the Pleiades stuff that they are human discarnates having fun with us.

Ben< I'll go ahead and post some of the categories I use, but you guys are way ahead of me. *smile*

Ben< One category of discarnate ET's could be the ghosts of dead UFO-drivers, of which there may be many species or races, from several or many different planets.

Ben< Another category of discarnate ET's could be spirits who have never incarnated on any planet, for example: angels, various astral-realm beings, and demons.

Ben< A third category of discarnate ET's could be the so-called "little people" (brownies, elves, fairies, gnomes, trolls, etc.). They are typically not human but humanoid; not everyone sees them; and we have found no archeological evidence of them on this planet. Therefore, I think they may be the ghosts of humanoid beings that evolved on some other planet and came here after they died. They didn't need any UFO's to get here, because they didn't bring their physical bodies with them.

Ben< Okay, I'm going to scan back and see what you-all posted while I was doing that. In the meantime, do you think of any more categories?

MonaHawke< I suppose from the description you gave the Archangels could also fit the criteria.

Yopo< And what about beings still in physical bodies, but not of our earth, that may visit us in the form of "astral projections"? Would they be included here?

MonaHawke< Also, beings from higher dimensions who could travel here astrally, as Yopo mentioned ... those who live in 6D.

Ben< Yopo, MonaHawke: Yes, incarnate beings on other planets may come here OBE and/or influence people by telepathy. Good point. They're not discarnate ET's as such, but surely would be part of the overall picture.

windy< What about holographic images or telepathically induced visions (of beings)? Oops, sorry ... holographic images and telepathic images are not living.

Ben< windy: Thought-form images aren't alive, but they are often telepathic projections from a living being, whether the being is incarnate or discarnate, terrestrial or extraterrestrial.

SLIDER< Ben: I would think that many beings are in their natural state as discarnate, and prefer not to materialize on the earth plane -- and as YOPO just said, can project or even enter our plane in the etheric state, and not everyone can see or sense their presence?

[Ben< SLIDER: Yes, I agree.]

Pleyades< Would the Spirit -First Cause- be considered as an ET discarnate presence?

Yopo< Pleyades: I believe the First Cause/World Soul is incarnate in all beings at all times. He/She would seem sort of a special case. *smile*

Pleyades< *S* Agreed!

FRAML< Ben: I wonder if some discarnates could come in to the asteroids that are fragments of extinct planets? Is that how they would get here? or just looking for a planet with life forms they could attach to?

Ben< FRAML: I've heard of (and worked a couple cases involving) humanoid ghosts from a planet that perished. They said they stayed together when their sun went nova and destroyed their planet. It's a big cosmos!

dancer< Ben I agree ... it is a very big cosmos ... full of endless possibilities and probabilities.

windy< Ben: Very interesting. How/why did they come to earth?

[Ben< windy: They died on their own planet, stayed together after they died, and came here as ghosts. They came looking for a planet like their former planet, with similar life-forms in which they could reincarnate, hopefully as a group. And I think some ET ghosts may have done just that, because, in past-life regression, some people seem to recall previous lives on other planets. In other words, I think their feeling they are "star-seeds" may be true, but if so, it was their own karmic desire to live in a physical humanoid body that brought them here.]

SLIDER< Ben: Hope I'm not getting ahead -- But if you think about it, we are all discarnates and come to this particular existence to experience what the good ol' earth has to offer. It's just that many forget their true roots and think this is the place of origin!

Ben< SLIDER: Good point!

FRAML< SLIDER: Yes, and those who like this planet or forget their origin are apt to end up in a reincarnation cycle.

Ben< ALL: Why might it be important for us to know (or guess) whether a particular entity or group of entities is presently incarnate or discarnate? YOUR TURN

Polgara< I would think it might help us discern their purpose and sincerity.

Ben< Polgara: Yes.

Yopo< Uh, might that not give us some clue as to what they're up to? What their motives in any contact situation might be? (Grasping at straws, here.)

FRAML< Ben: If discarnate, they could be calling themselves "spirit guides" "ascended masters" or your great aunt Hortense. If incarnate, they could be ... darn if I know.

Ben< FRAML: If incarnate, it could be a would-be guru working by telepathy and pretending to be something else. (If they ask for money, that could be a clue.)

SLIDER< Ben: Well it's best to know who to follow to the light after we pass over to the other side -- and it's also good to know who's screwin with you on this plane!

Ben< SLIDER: From the abduction reports I've read and heard, it sometimes seems difficult, even for the victim, to tell whether an abduction was physical or OBE.

SLIDER< Ben: It almost would make sense if we would learn to discern what is OBE or lucid or just imagination -- before we think we have something to go on. Thought projection is a pretty powerful tool in the hands of someone adept at it, and quite devastating to an unsuspecting or naive soul!

[Ben< SLIDER: Thought projection can be powerful -- for good or ill, blessing or curse. For example: because white witches cast blessings and not curses, they are a benefit to society; because black witches cast curses, they are a threat to society.]

Lor< Ben: Does being incarnate or discarnate really make any essential difference in the nature of a being? I suspect not, so why the question?

Ben< Lor: I posted the question on "incarnate vs discarnate" because some people seem to feel that any discarnate source is more to be trusted than any incarnate person.

Lor< Ben: Thanks, I suspect that trust is something to be earned based on experience with any type of being.

donoma< Ben: If they are incarnate, and walking around the earth, then we truly know they are real and not the product of modern myth, or our wishful thinking.

Yopo< donoma: I'm not entirely sure that being "solid" is the ultimate test of what is real and what is not. It is only the ultimate test within the limited context of the materialist paradigm.

donoma< Yopo: That is true. However, our interactions with the etheric are all so subjective. We seem to agree on things when they are perceived by our five senses. I perceive entities in the etheric, but I have found that when I do, no one else seems to notice.

[Ben< donoma: Yes, that is because extrasensory perception isn't as common as sensory perception. However, ESP isn't entirely subjective. I know of cases in which two or more people perceived the same thing at the same time.]

windy< A discarnate entity might be interested in gaining entry of our bodies for their own control and amusement.

[Ben< windy: Yes. It is very important to realize that discarnate entities who try to enter or control someone else's mind or body do so to pursue their own agendas.]

windy< Discarnate entities (in our fiction and folklore) also tend to try get us to emit the baser low-end passions and emotions.

Ben< windy: Some (many) discarnates try to seduce folks toward low-end passions and emotions. Some do not. And that difference is one way to test the spirits.

Frozen_Moon< Seductive??!!

FRAML< Frozen_Moon: Yes "seductive" by offering us power, "predictions of the future", etc. What do you really want? They will tell you how to get it, but it may not be the moral or legal way.

windy< FRAML: Seductive, offering power, predictions of the future, etc. ... it was exactly the way the ancient South American sorcerers were tricked into becoming prisoners of those entities who lived in a crystal-like world (which I think is a kind of sub-space). While the sorcerer was in the crystal-like space gaining knowledge, an entity from the crystal world would be in control of the sorcerer's consciousness (or so it seems from the descriptions).

Ben< FRAML and windy: Good point. Dr. Bill Baldwin's forthcoming book is on the similarities between UFO abduction and demonic possession. It should be available soon. Dr. Baldwin's publisher, Bob Teets, has written two books on this subject. His phone is 1-800-570-5951 and he has some articles posted. For example: http://isur.com/articles/harvest.html

Lor< Ben: Does "being discarnate" make an entity more formidable than if they were incarnate?

[Ben< Lor: Well, yes, because discarnates aren't susceptible to our normal earthly tools -- such as a swift kick in the shins as a token of resistance -- and because of the naive assumption I mentioned earlier.

donoma< Lor: Just a thought -- discarnate entities are typically found "within" a person; i.e., perceived by senses other than the five. New Age philosophy, to a large extent, asks us to "look within". So much of the alien paradigm has become aligned with New Age spirituality, that there is a tendency for people to look to the discarnate entities as those that offer the truth.

Lor< donoma: My experience with discarnates seems not to necessarily limit them to be within people, although some have been so. But, I guess I should say that I've never known incarnates to be other than that. (smile)

donoma< Lor: It was hard to communicate my idea. *S* I guess I meant that people within our New Age movement tend to trust our "internal" senses. Therefore, when we perceive a discarnate, it is generally with these senses, and so therefore we trust the entity more. Someone that is incarnate, such as those who are "walk-ins" etc., are often more subject to scrutiny than to those to appear to our internal senses.

dancer< Ben: As far as groups go, I think it is a very significant point that so many Light Beings are presently here and accessible to any who will listen at this point in Earth's history. We have damaged the Mother to a point that without their assistance there may be no future for humanity here, Many say this isn't possible, but others have done it elsewhere in the universe ... destroyed the planet which they called home.

FRAML< dancer: "Damaged the Mother"? Please explain this concept.

windy< FRAML: The Mother ... as in Mother Earth or Mother Nature.

dancer< FRAML: Rivers so full of pollution that they are now termed 'dead rivers', acid rain, deforestation, massive soil erosion, long term damage to the ozone, chemical spills, nuclear fallout ... should I go on? We have done this within less than 200 years of industrial revolution. Cool, huh?

5foot2< FRAML: I believe this earth gave us physical form.

dancer< FRAML: Mother is just the name I call Gaea. It is not the Earth that won't continue to exist, but for us and the plants and animals that call this planet home, I worry.

FRAML< dancer: Then you are referencing earth as the origin of life?

dancer< FRAML: No, by no means the origin of life, but she is the home for incarnate humanity.

MonaHawke< FRAML: Even if Mother Gaia is not THE source of the creation of spirit, she surely is the source of the food that fed our mothers who physically brought us into the world ... and continues to sustain us with food, water, etc.

FRAML< dancer: OK, Thanks. I just see those who call Earth their "god/dess". I don't put you there.

dancer< FRAML: Glad that you gave me a chance to clarify. Thanks... *smile*

Ben< ALL: (as usual, you guys are really swift, but I'll trudge along and post my question anyway): Why might it be important for us to know (or guess) where a particular *discarnate* entity or group of entities came from? YOUR TURN

FRAML< As to whether or not they may have an ethical system similar to ours; or even if they have one at all.

SLIDER< If we could find out for sure where the beings in question have come from, it would be a plus. But as things go, we have to trust whoever we believe is genuine and hope it's the right decision.

LEGS< Well, as always, if we are advised, we should discern if possible the source of that advice.

Yopo< If we know a discarnate or group has its origin on our own world, perhaps some assumptions could be made about motives. If from somewhere else, any assumptions might be way off base.

Ben< Yes. And whenever we find a human ghost pretending to be an Avatar from the planet Playtex, we can be excused for doubting whatever else he or she may say. *grin*

windy< Maybe we need to somehow separate the good unidentified entities from the bad unidentified entities. I don't personally think of angels, or spirits of saints or Jesus or Mary as unidentified anyway ... and it always seems to me that I never run into unidentified good spirit-entities ... they are always kind enough to identify themselves (usually in the sense that I seem to know who they are).

~*serena< windy: It is my belief that when a spirit or whatever is in one's presence, it is a "feeling" of pure Love and comfort ... warmth. One should have a very good feeling. However, if there is any DIScomfort, or what have you, that should be a real good indicator right there. This is the best gage I have or know of. Also, you may question them. Are you the one in control? I say listen to your soul's heart.

windy< serena: I agree. One needs to use all of one's senses in such an evaluation, but feeling/intuition is certainly one of the most primary indicators.

Vimana< If we can't figure out whether ETs are incarnate or discarnate, how are we going to figure out who they are, where they're from, and what their motives are?

Ben< Vimana: I think it is important to consider these various categories, and watch for indications in what an entity says and does (and infers or assumes).

Vimana< Does anybody actually Know anything about ETs other than they seem to actually exist in some form or other? I don't see spirits or auras and the limited number of what you might call entities I've seen have never said anything to me.

Ben< Vimana: I believe I know this much about the ETs that picked up Betty and Barney Hill in 1961. They had physical bodies. They were humanoid but not human. They were telepathic. They didn't know much about humans (for example, they were surprised when they found that Barney's false teeth came out and Betty's teeth didn't come out).

windy< Ben: Did they say anything to the Hills about their being from somewhere far away? More and more, I think the greys are subterranean creatures. If indeed, they are from another planet, then they have been here a very long time.

Ben< windy: Yes. They showed Betty a star-map and told her where they came from. Later, she drew the map while under hypnosis. Still later, some astronomy experts with a computer found a star system right where she said it was.

windy< Ben: Were the greys the ones that abducted the Hills?

Ben< windy: Yes. They're called greys now. Or Zetas, from the name of the star system they pointed out to Betty Hill.

windy< Wherever they are from, they seem to breathe our atmosphere pretty well ... and be suited well enough to our climate.

Ben< ALL: What is important for humans to know about *any* type of life-form, terrestrial or extraterrestrial, incarnate or discarnate, regardless of its species, race, shape, form, degree of intelligence, or where it came from? YOUR TURN

SLIDER< To try and discern what the motives of the entities are, be they incarnate or discarnate.

FRAML< SLIDER: Agree on knowing motives. Also we need to develop ways to test their motives. Are they helpful, hurtful, mischievous or curious?

SLIDER< FRAML: Yes, the motives are important to find out -- and if you don't or can't find them out, be sure not to be passive. If you stay in control even during OBE, you can dominate the outcome of most or all circumstances.

FRAML< SLIDER: Good point. But (fortunately?) I've yet to (knowingly) have had an OBE.

Vimana< I guess the most important thing we need to know about any entity, including man, is whether it means to harm us or not.

dancer< The most important thing to know is the integrity of it's character. Is it of the Light.

Yopo< Friend or foe? Help or hindrance? Of Light or of Darkness? (Just can't shake dat durn ol' duality. *LOL*)

~*serena< Yopo: Yup! That Duality of Illusion! *S*

FRAML< Yopo: The old army challenge: "Halt! Who goes there? Friend or foe?"

5foot2< Can we make the assumption of friend or foe based on one encounter? I wonder if "they" will base humanity on one encounter and the treatment given them by our governments. After all, we boast that our governments represent the people.

[Ben< 5foot2: Good questions. In a personal encounter, it can be very important to make the correct assumption immediately, without waiting for a whole lot of data. Evaluating humanity or any other species is a statistical problem that requires a lot of data. Governments are often not representative of the people, as in this case, where the government seems determined to treat UFOs and ETs as if they do not exist, whereas a lot of people have personal experience to the contrary.]

Ben< ALL: I want to know whether *any* life-form is dangerous, harmless, or helpful to humans.

Lor< Ben: But don't all life forms have the potential of being dangerous, harmless, or helpful to humans? And maybe even some that are not life forms may have the same potentials, as well?

Ben< Lor: Some critters are dangerous to humans and some are not. Between those extremes, danger varies by degree. This is so in biology, for example, all the way from viruses to mammals.

SLIDER< Ben: Plus, we have intuition to tell us fight or flight -- and if we've come to realize we all have guardian angels, we should learn to listen to them!

windy< SLIDER: I agree strongly. Our culture seems to stress authority figures ... giving away one's control, one's right to a decision ... to our parents, to our employers, to our politicians, to our clergymen. Realizing that our own individual worlds are ours to manifest according to our own will is a difficult concept to learn in this world (and I mean this with all positiveness. I mean asserting one's own will for the good of oneself, not to the detriment of another ).

SLIDER< Windy: Yes -- and I'm glad you finished that with showing respect for another's right to control their own destiny. I'm not saying we should join to control, but to teach -- and if we know what's best for ourselves, lead by example -- which most of today's leaders aren't moral enough or intelligent enough to do!

donoma< Ben: I think it is most important to know if they are REAL or not. From there, we can discern motives. But if not, are we subjecting our children to a big fantasy?

Ben< donoma: Good point. We have more than enough mythical beasties.

Yopo< donoma: This issue of what is "real" is a bit of a problem for me, too. I'm not sure the distinction is always as clear as we would like for it to be. "Real" often seems to be a judgment call.

Vimana< Has anyone ever actually asked ETs what their objectives or motives were and got a satisfactory answer?

FRAML< Vimana: In Alaska, ET's phone Nome.

Vimana< It seems to me that any entity that does something to you without your permission is a harmful entity and one to be avoided.

Lor< Vimana: But what if they don't know better? That is, if they do not have any ethics background that says they should respect others freedom, etc.?

Vimana< It seems that if they can communicate at all, they could tell we do not want them to treat us like cattle. They know enough to immobilize us and prevent us from harming them.

SLIDER< Ben: This may be out of perspective, but do you feel there is a war for control of souls going on in the etheric plane ?

Janey< SLIDER: I sure do.

Ben< SLIDER: There is a war for the control of souls, right here on planet Earth and in the non-physical realms.

Yopo< Ben: That last statement wouldn't be so chilling if it didn't ring so true.

Ben< Yopo: A lot of people desire and seek power to control human souls. And a lot of them retain that desire after they die.

Yopo< Ben: Yep. Trouble is, the desire to control is so often hidden ... even from ourselves. Seems in the modern world "evil" is often an insidious thing, masked in a way that appears morally neutral. And the results of our actions are sometimes conveniently remote from the decision we make about a particular act. The complexity of our modern world makes it so easy to separate cause from eventual effect.

SLIDER< Ben: I've thought sometimes that a big con game may be at play to deceive souls/spirits into what looks good at the time -- this is throwing out the big picture, as the con artists in the etheric find ways to make us make war against each other to serve their own ends.

Vimana< Humans haven't learned to respect each other's rights and even their life ... why should ETs be any different?

Janey< Good point, Vimana.

donoma< Vimana: Good point.

Yopo< Vimana: That's a good point. Highly evolved technology is no guarantee of moral supremacy ... we've proven that ourselves. Every time a technologically more advanced Earth culture has encountered one less advanced, the lesser is dominated and often destroyed. Perhaps if there ARE advanced ETs among us, there's hope in the fact that we aren't dead yet. *LOL*

FRAML< Yopo: Agreed.

Lor< Vimana: Isn't that one of the things that we are here for, don't you suppose? That is, learning to respect each other's rights and even their life?

Vimana< Lor: I think that's what we're here for, but I don't think we're learning that lesson very fast.

Lor< Vimana: I find I do not disagree about your perception as to the speed of learning the GOOD lessons!

Vimana< Most entities, including humans, look at the universe from their own perspective and do what they consider to be in their own best interest, regardless of who or what is hurt by it.

[Ben< Vimana: Good point. I think it is important to remember that.]

Vimana< We are still Neanderthals with Nukes.

Yopo< Vimana: But we haven't turned 'em loose on ourselves yet. We've not yet gone completely insane.

FRAML< Vimana: I think that having actually used them on a "minor" scale has made people realize how destructive they are. However, the Soviet hierarchy never believed it until Chernobyl happened to them.

Vimana< FRAML: I believe we are more danger from nuclear weapons now than before the Soviet Union broke up.

FRAML< ALL: I'm not trying to start a "nuke" conversation.

Vimana< Me neither. *S*

Lor< Vimana: My perception of the more advanced among us is that they do not usually put their personal self-interest first, but reach out to care and help where they can.

Vimana< Lor: I agree there are a lot of more Spiritually advanced people here on Earth, but there are many left who are seemingly void of conscience or respect. All one has to do is watch the evening news on TV to see how far we have to go before we Love our Neighbors and respect their lives. Greed and thirst for power seem to be the main motivation of a lot of people.

windy< I think it is difficult to know how much of an opportunity a person has had to be enlightened. This is a time of great change, and there are entities of great good and great evil here. I think there are far more good people than bad, but a lack of enlightenment may make it sometimes seem as though the scales are tipped towards evil. I think that this is part of the "test." Each of us has to choose "good" even when it appears to be the unpopular, or even the stupid choice.

SLIDER< Windy: Cheers!

windy< Ben: I think your point about some people being less cautious with discarnate entities than incarnate entities, is well taken. I have noticed the same tendency, particularly in the literature and in conversations here at SWC.

donoma< Ben: Do you think we should fear certain entities in the etheric?

Ben< donoma: Well, yes, there are dangerous (and seductive) entities in the etheric; however, fear doesn't help us much. It's like the fact that rattlesnakes are definitely dangerous to humans, but a paralyzing fear of snakes doesn't help us deal with them.

Lor< donoma: I suspect that having "fear" gives strength to the darker forces, while looking for the opposite type of feeling tends to bring about more positive and beneficial results in one's life experiences.

donoma< Lor: I agree, and that is what my etheric "trainers" have told me -- not to be afraid of anything. Maybe I'm being naive and duped? *S*

Lor< donoma: OK, but not being paralyzed by fear does not equate to not being wary. It seems we need to check out these various sorts of beings, much as we have learned to do regarding exchanges with schoolmates, etc., to determine who can be considered a true friend.

Ben< Lor: Good point. Being alert and wary enhances survival of sapient species. Fear manifests in three different reactions: freeze, flight, fight. Any of the three can enhance survival, but freeze only works if the predator hasn't seen you.

Vimana< Lor: I have read that when a person ceases to be afraid of ET encounters, the encounters take on a more benign appearance ... less threatening or painful.

[Ben< Vimana: I read an article that compared that change of attitude toward ET encounters or abductions with the "Stockholm Syndrome" in which prisoners eventually identified themselves with their captors.]

windy< I recently heard or read something about how the aliens always go upworld to give birth because the earth is surrounded by some sort of shadow which dulls our consciousness to a more complete knowledge of who/what we are.

donoma< windy: Can you please explain the term "upworld"? thanks.

windy< donoma: I mean above our atmosphere, perhaps at least at high shuttle orbit level.

heartsong< Well, my question is, why haven't the ET's made themselves more present in the 3d? I know they may fear for their safety from our over-reaction, but still, is it not about time to announce themselves as being here?

Vimana< I get the feeling sometimes that what the ETs are doing is somehow connected to their survival ... our survival and theirs are intertwined somehow.

FRAML< Vimana: But they also appear to be just curious about "what is on that little blue marble". Like seamen of the 17th and 18th centuries going to investigate an island they can see but have never visited before.

Vimana< FRAML: What did those 17th century explorers do to the inhabitants of those places they were exploring?

FRAML< Vimana: What happened on each specific visit, I don't know; however we can't generalize that they were either all benign or harmful. Also, what if the island was uninhabited? We need to realize that the same may be happening here.

Vimana< FRAML: In most cases, once the explorers explored the land, they became exploiters of the land and proceeded to destroy the inhabitants or their culture. Point is -- Is this the same phenomena with ETs?

windy< Vimana: (In my humble opinion) I think the phenomenon has been going on for many generations, and humans learned it from the other-worlders. Like begetting like: the conquering, the assimilating, the experimentation.

heartsong< Why does the Media (movies, TV, books) always portray the ET as a dark force? Are they trying to make contact a fear-based experience? Are there any positive portrayals of ET contact?

donoma< heartsong: The movie "ET". Carl Sagan wrote about convincing Steven Spielburg to make a movie that portrayed aliens as nice to kids so people wouldn't be freaked out when they actually met one. *S*

Yopo< heartsong: Well, "ET" and "Close Encounters" certainly weren't negative portrayals. I think the media just throws out at us whatever will sell.

windy< Here's an interesting bit of trivia that pertains (at least a little). Madame Blavatsky in "Isis Unveiled" talks about the etheric entities being extremely sensitive to tobacco (smoke). They cannot tolerate it ... it has an extremely negative reaction with them. I find it interesting that of all the industries that cause harm to us (pesticides in our food, in our soil, chemicals in our clothing, pollution in our air, etc.), it is the tobacco industry that is being brought down, and solidly, seemingly with no end in sight. In the elementary schools, many children equate smoking tobacco with pot smoking and alcohol.

Vimana< windy: I have thought about that same thing about tobacco.

windy< Not that I would dream of promoting smoking tobacco, but I'm not exactly keen on its being against the law, either. I also think it's interesting that tobacco smoke is a Native American way to cleanse the air and soil (one leaves a gift of tobacco in the soil when taking a plant from it). Kinda reminds me of Europeans and garlic (in a non-linear kind of way).

Yopo< windy: So we should all smoke big stinky stogies to protect ourselves from abduction and/or possession? *smile* I can see it: little coughing Greys, fleeing in terror.

SLIDER< Windy: I had not heard of the tobacco problem for ET's. That could be why Edgar Cayce said in his channelings that moderate tobacco smoke was OK? Real moderate, though!

Shaman13< Ben: What do you think about cattle mutilations by the greys ? Their being more technologically advanced does not mean they are more spiritually advanced than earth.

Ben< Shaman13: The cattle mutilations look like the remains of a more-or-less scientific autopsy -- as though UFO-drivers were trying to learn something about the various species on this little blue-and-white planet.

FRAML< Perhaps they just ran out of t-bone steaks in their food locker?

Shaman13< We should hope they don't see us as mankind looks upon all the other life forms on earth (= food).

SLIDER< Shaman13: Let's hope, if they do, that we're toxic to them! LOL

[Ben< SLIDER: Maybe that's where smoking tobacco comes into the picture.]

Yopo< Is the cattle mutilation still an ongoing phenomenon?

Ben< LEGS: You said previously that there were some cattle mutilated near where you live. Can you describe what was done to them, without getting too terribly gory? *smile*

LEGS< Ben: Out here they weren't gory until you considered how it might have happened. It was suggested that they were simply dehydrated because of our dry weather in these parts, but there were no bones inside ... outer cow ... no wounds. The entire, intact cow, with hide, hooves, horns, et al, were there, but nothing inside and no marks of damage outside. It was only about 14 miles north of here that the (dropped, sucked dry or whatever) cattle were found. No tracks around them to indicate how they got there.

Vimana< Ben: A lot of people believe the cattle mutilations are some kind of government thing to divert attention from what is really going on.

Ben< Vimana: I've heard the suggestion that cattle mutilations were government deception, but the data gathered for the Condon Study seemed more like simple autopsies.

Lor< I suspect that people who think the government is behind the animal mutilations have fallen prey to a kind of social disease that seems all too prevalent these days. I really do not know that it has not happened, but I rather doubt it. There is harm in being paranoid about such things; perhaps patience is a needed virtue until proof of any such government misinformation campaign is available.

FRAML< Vimana: That could very well happen. Remember the old Outer Limits TV show "To Serve Mankind"? It turned out to be a cookbook, and the aliens were shipping people to a luxury life on their home planet, but the humans were really just becoming choice cuts of meat.

Vimana< FRAML: Now THAT's a scary thought.

windy< FRAML: I remember that as well, and it certainly occurs to me time and again. According to one of the posts I read in a news group I frequent, the Lizard-type aliens are the ones who eat humans.

Shaman13< Most animal mothers would give their life to protect their young. The greatest love of all is to give your life for one you love. Yet we don't accept the other life forms' evident love. Possibly that's all they would have to do, to see us as below them. Not equal. Then anything could be possible. Just as mankind sets above all life here (only in our minds). Overlook our love also, and we are animals, too. What's the difference?

SLIDER< FRAML: Speaking of Outer Limits -- the one I saw the other night was about aliens trying to re-establish the human race from the genetics of frozen corpses found in ice caps after some type of catastrophe.

Yopo< Vimana: Our own culture is so fragile ... and our physical selves are so vulnerable ... if a highly advanced life form wanted to bring us down, I'd think it would have already happened. Of course, as Ben points out, there might be dark motives other than our MATERIAL destruction.

Lor< Yopo: Motives need not be "dark" to yield harmful results. Even innocent curiosity can cause unintended hurts sometimes.

Vimana< Yopo: That brings us back to my earlier point. I think the ETs survival depends on our survival somehow.

junebeam< I have had experiences involving abduction since a very early age. One memory that I uncovered more fully in hypnotherapy involved blue aliens showing me a baby. I shut down and couldn't recall further exactly who, what or how this baby was to occur. I strongly believe that we are central to a plan to extend their life capabilities somehow.

Ben< junebeam: Was your physical body moved from one place to another during the abductions, or were the abductions essentially out-of-body experiences?

junebeam< During the abduction that I remember with the baby, I recalled a brilliant white light in my bedroom. I got up and checked to see if it was coming from any natural source. Then I got back into bed and I don't remember anything after that consciously.

Ben< junebeam: Hmm. Any physical evidence, like marks on your body?

junebeam< I do have one unexplained mark. However, I suppose probably the oddest thing is that I have been "vibrating" since I was a young teenager. The night of the light, and around that time, I was not only vibrating but my bed was too.

windy< I know I am probably in the minority here, but I think this planet is far beyond most in spirituality. We are coming out of a very dark time, and thus it doesn't appear to be so. Evil or spiritually ignorant entities are sent to this planet for a lesson in what it is this universe is truly all about ... and personally, I believe that we are all amazing teachers. *smile*

Ben< windy: I also think that some humans are far ahead of most ET species in terms of ethics and morality. (How's *that* for a scary thought?) *smile*

windy< The media may stress what is wrong in/with our world ... but there are enormous numbers of individuals working persistently for the good of all; and there are many individuals who simply do the best they can under the circumstances. There are many who have "awakened" as if from a deep slumber ... murderers, thieves, etc. ... and have changed their ways. If it weren't for the war being waged on our children at this time, and in certain hot spots where one can guess at the high tech kind of weapons being used (subliminal programming, microwave technologies, radio and other wave mood inducers, etc.), I think the human race has been holding its own pretty well, all things considered.

LEGS< Ben: Are you continuing this discussion topic next week, or a new topic? Also, could some of the encounters we see be soul groups? when the "object" is too large for a single being? or would they be discernible to normal vision? Did we get into the spiritual perception of UFO's as opposed to normal visual perception that might indicate the sighting was a unique "vision" for the individual?

Ben< LEGS: I'm thinking of starting a different topic next week. Not sure just what, at this point, though several people have emailed suggestions. We worked on the difference between physical and psychic vision a couple seminars back. Basically, if you can see it with your eyes closed, the odds are that it isn't physical.

Istahota< Ben: My father used to call craft in over our house in Tennessee. He would tell my mother and I days before to be home at a certain time. He told me if I ever went in one of those that came over the house, to go to the captain. He smiled and said don't be scared, when he turns around you will see yourself. He said there were others not of this world, but not to be concerned.

Ben< Istahota: Did you see or enter any of those craft?

Istahota< Ben: I did see them back then, 20 years or so. Recently they have been in my house -- 6 months ago.

Ben< Istahota: Do you have photos of the visitors six months ago?

Istahota< Ben: No. I wasn't thinking about pictures at that time.

Ben< Istahota: I can see why one might not think to grab a camera at such a time. *smile*

STARX< Ben: I had an experience once, witnessed by four others. We all lost consciousness while we were tracking a mother ship. It was a fantastic experience, felt like a 45 minute orgasm. My experience was very positive. In fact it changed my life and the life of one other person there. For a year I "channeled" some strange very scientific material that seemed to be coming from "them" because I don't know where I'd come up with the stuff that was coming out of me. I did have 2 marks on my legs ... 2 perfect little circles which have faded now. But for me it was not traumatic ... was very positive ... so go figure.

Ben< STARX: Have you written up the details of that encounter?

STARX< Ben: I haven't written up the encounter, but I have the journal. They said I'd use the info later in my work. It's about strange things like how the ego functions, about cycles of eight in humanity's experience of emotion, about the mechanics of how we separate ourselves from spirit ... things like that ... very mathematical and scientific.

Ben< STARX: Are you still channeling? And if so, have you tried tuning yourself to a different channel?

STARX< Ben: I haven't been channeling from them for some time, but sure, I tune into other channels ... when necessary. Now it's not so much channeling, but just asking and the answer comes.

Ben< STARX: Okay. I asked that question because I found it useful, when I learned to tune myself at will ... like scanning various TV or radio channels.

Yopo< Ben: Just curious ... Have you ever read a book entitled "Daimonic Reality: Understanding Otherworld Encounters" by Patrick Harpur?

Ben< Yopo: No, I haven't seen that book. What do you think of it?

Yopo< Ben: I've not finished it yet, but it strikes me as well worth the read. Harpur postulates that "otherworldly encounters" represent an intrusion into our world by aspects of the "collective unconsciousness" or "world soul", which is the greater reality in which our own conscious and unconscious minds have their being. He seems to think we project what is within ourselves onto such intrusions, that UFOs, for example, are our way of making sense of such intrusions in modern times, because of our technological world view. In another time, we might have projected other images, of divine manifestations, for example. He in no way discounts that there is an underlying reality behind such things.

Ben< Yopo: Okay, thanks. I'm not so sure there is a "collective unconscious" but I could be mistaken (and have been, often enough!)

Yopo< Harpur doesn't much favor the term "collective unconsciousness" either, though he uses it for convenience sake. Seems to like the term Anima Mundi better, though that one is too slippery for me to get a firm grip on. I guess what impresses me, is that he seems to offer a viable model that tries to make sense of a wide variety of encounters, on both the physical and spiritual level. A rather grand undertaking. Points for effort. *smile* It almost seems he is suggesting we are surrounded by a diamonic reality teeming with "shape shifters".

Ben< Yopo: Shape-shifting is no big deal, just the ability to project a mental image of "self" and then change it to another image.

SLIDER< Yopo: Shape shifting may be something that we all do, and just use our bodies to experience the senses?

Yopo< SLIDER: Perhaps so. One of Harpur's thoughts is that there is really no difference between "inside" and "outside". When one goes deeply within, to the very depths, one emerges into the vast sea of world-soul. I'm not clear on what that implies about these physical bodies we "ride around in".

SLIDER< Yopo: That could get into fragmenting self's spirit, with the ability to still be in control of all fragments and use the experiences to enhance the intellect of the spirit whole (sparks). Have you read any of Edgar Cayce's books? That subject was often brought up. And some books by Jane Roberts -- the Seth books -- go into that subject in depth. Roberts' books are channeled.

Yopo< SLIDER: I've read bits and pieces of "The Nature of Personal Reality" (that's the title, I think). Roberts/Seth impressed me. Haven't had any contact with Edgar Cayce.

SLIDER< Yopo: It took me about two years to get through "The Nature of Personal Reality". I had to keep analyzing it and re-reading to try to grasp the concept, but I'm glad I finished it.

LEGS< Ben: Buttonpusher has set the meeting for EncountersSupportGroup for an hour before your class here in Amazon next week. They meet in a reserved room by that name and the password is "peace". Buttonpusher said to invite those interested.

SLIDER< Ben: Have you ever had contact with moral ET discarnates that recognized God and Jesus -- but were not of the earth? And if so, did they tell you their motives for contact on earth?

Ben< SLIDER: Yes. Angels. And I have encountered moral ETs in the higher astral realms that knew the Light. (I need to write up those cases.) But I have not encountered what I consider highly moral UFO-drivers or their ghosts -- at least so far.

SLIDER< Ben: I was curious if any of those ET discarnates said whether they were from another star system or galaxy? Or just a place in the cosmos?

Ben< SLIDER: Some said they were from a planet like the Earth in another star system. They seemed to be UFO-drivers communicating by telepathy to the person I was working with. Then directly with me. Another group were not on a planet, but in one of the higher astral realms. They seemed to be good ghosts who had once lived on some other planet.

SLIDER< Ben: Very interesting answer. I have theorized such, but not sure if I've had such an experience.

Yopo< Ben: Oh, an interesting thing concerning your comment earlier about no archaeological evidence for little people and such. Harpur trots out some photos. One, of a tiny shoe found on Beara Peninsula, Ireland, in 1835. It was analyzed years back at Harvard University. Appears to have been made of mouse-skin, and hand-stitched: 2 and 7/8 inches long. There is also a tiny coat in existence, found in 1878, only 6 and 1/2 inches long and 1 and 3/4 across the shoulders. Fully lined and with cloth-covered buttons and a high velvet-trimmed collar. Shows all the signs of long wear. *smile*

Ben< Yopo: That's interesting. And of course, it *would* be Ireland. *grin*

Yopo< Ben: I think the Celtic mind is naturally receptive to things others tend to be culturally blind to. Of course, they do have a certain reputation when it comes to strong drink. *LOL*

Lotus< hahaha ~ Ireland, little coats ~ hahahaha (*listening ... quietly*)

Yopo< Ben: I have a .jpg of the little shoe, if ya wanna see it.

Ben< Yopo: Is the jpg on your site?

Yopo< Ben: Nah. Poor Yopo is siteless. *smile* Could attach it to an email.

Ben< Yopo: Okay, please do. I have Jpeg Reader, so it should work. Of course, a photo isn't real firm proof, but the possibilities are interesting.

Yopo< I think anomalous artifacts appeal to my naturally skeptical nature. I like those tangible bits that defy all "common sense". Sorta help erode certain stubborn barriers the logical mind insists upon maintaining.

Ben< Yopo: I find a lot of odd stuff interesting -- as long as I don't have to bet a stack of blue chips on it! But at that point, I suddenly get *very, very* interested in the difference between fact and fiction, reality and fantasy, truth and falsehood.

Ben< ALL: Goodnight and pleasant dreams. Namaste.

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