22. Courage
Session 1
Spiritual Web Chat
Sat 15 Jan 2000

Ben< This is the first session of a new series. The subject is courage.

Ben< Tonight I'm taking a somewhat different approach. Instead of starting with words and their meanings, as I often do, or by presenting scenarios, I'll briefly describe a type of courage and ask you to illustrate it. Ready? Let's go ...

Ben< QUESTION 1a: One type of courage can be described as the ability to face what you fear, to go in harm's way, to enter and deal with a dangerous situation. What does this description remind you of? Do you have an example of this type of courage? YOUR TURN

windchild< Military people, fire fighters, policemen, anyone that has to deal with the possibility of physical harm.

daCrone< Defense as in war, defense as in protecting one who cannot protect self, rescue of another from a dangerous situation -- fire, auto accident -- these all seem to have a physical common denominator ... still thinking ...

Yopo< Going to war comes to mind first. Though my youthful foolishness made courage a secondary factor. *s*

daCrone< Working with unknown viruses, hazardous materials. Negotiators, perhaps ... I would be afraid to face Sadam one-on-one. If I thought it would be of benefit, could I do it anyway?

Ben< Good examples. Thanks. (I'm not going to be able to respond very often, because it's taking 70-80 seconds from the time I click "Refresh/post" until the screen is ready to read. Display = 15 lines.)

daCrone< Some of the physical examples I come up with are situations in which time is an element and instinct rather than thinking may hold sway.

Ben< This type of courage is expected of military personnel, firefighters, policemen, and rescue workers. It is also found in some people of whom it isn't expected, such as the ten-year-old boy who recently rescued several people from a burning apartment building in our area.

Lor< Ben: I am reminded of having to face possible surgery when diagnosed with a very serious disease. Such trips to hospitals take a bit of courage, methinks.

Ben< Lor: Good example. Thank you.

windchild< My mother in law died two days ago. She went home from the hospital 5 days ago knowing she was going to die. She was very courageous.

LEGS< windchild: That is an exemplary kind of courage. We often credit mothers with such, for they seem to be able to make that type of sacrifice.

windchild< Thank you.

FRAML< Ben: My answer was in line with windchild & daCrone before I was disconnected.

Ben< QUESTION 1b: In the example(s) you provided, would a person be less courageous if the anticipated danger turned out to be a false alarm? YOUR TURN

windchild< No, not at all less courageous.

daCrone< I don't think so. The perception of danger would be the same regardless

Yopo< Not in my opinion. Uncertainty itself is something that requires courage to deal with effectively. I imagine false alarms take their special toll on police, firemen, military personnel ...

Lor< Courage to face a doctor's possible scalpel is required no matter whether the doctor eventually finds it needful or not. And who says that some trips to a dentist don't involve some courage, whether or not they prove to involve pain.

FRAML< Not the less courageous. You don't know when the situation is going to be real. It shows what the person is "made of" and where their willingness is for selfless service for others.

Ben< I believe, at any point where courage is needed, it doesn't matter whether what one fears is real or imaginary.

Ben< QUESTION 2a: Another type of courage can be described as the ability to make yourself do something that is difficult for you, but not necessarily dangerous. What does this description remind you of? Do you have an example of this type of courage? YOUR TURN

Esop< Public speaking.

windchild< Courage to face yourself and accept what you find.

Esop< Competition.

LEGS< Ben: What type of courage would you say was displayed when the young black girl chose to sit on the bus in the civil rights period before Martin Luther King's speech days? Was that a solid non-fearing courage, defiant courage, or simply desperation and demonstrative courage??

windchild< LEGS: I think she was tired of being treated as if she were less than human. Rosa Parks stood up for her entire race. (I guess I should have said she sat down for her race.)

LEGS< (((Windchild))) *s*

Ben< LEGS: I would say that was the first type of courage I mentioned: facing the anticipation of danger, possible harm.

LEGS< OK, Ben, I see that ... yes, it would be the first, wouldn't it? And I submit that some acts others deem as courageous were merely expedient at the moment ... almost fool-hardy ... such as Audie Murphy's heroic actions simply seemed to be no other course for him, as he once commented later.

Yopo< Telling someone a truth that is going to hurt them. That takes courage. Imagine doctors and such have to face such situations often. Or telling a truth that is going to hurt YOU.

daCrone< divorce ... public speaking ... this is feeling to me like a type of fear in which the main element is perception of self ... still thinking ...

LEGS< OK ... not dangerous, but requiring personal courage? For me, that was serving as Adjutant when the time came to 'form the troops' for inspection. *s* Hardly had a voice at all to call out "Atten-shun!"

FRAML< I talked a dozen guys into going off the top of a 60 rappelling tower while I was in the Army. But when I came time for myself to go off the edge I froze. In fact, I climbed back UP the face of the tower from about 10 feet down, instead of rappelling 50 feet to the ground. The main instructor couldn't figure out how I got finger and toe holds on the 2x8 planks. My fear of falling over-rode my knowing that properly done it was quite safe to do.

Lor< First attempts at singing a solo in front of an audience come to mind -- probably not dangerous, except in the sense of possibly making a fool out of oneself and maybe embarrassing your friends and colleagues.

FRAML< However, I was always willing to tell my commanders what they didn't want to hear in my intelligence estimates and briefings. For me too many people's lives were or could have been riding on my honesty.

Lor< I believe it sometimes takes a lot of courage to face up and confess to one's own mistakes in the presence of colleagues one does not entirely trust as being true friends -- particularly if you are NOT proud of your actions and the rationale behind them.

Ben< I think this type of courage is specific to the person: that is, what is difficult for one person may be easy for another. For example: it takes a lot of courage for a shy little child to get up and recite a poem in public, but it doesn't take any courage for me to do that.

Yopo< Interesting point, about the shy child and the poem! Seems to suggest the timid and fearful sometimes show more courage than those we think of as brave. And that their courage is perhaps less likely to be noticed ...

Ben< QUESTION 2b: In general, do you think it takes more courage to do something that is difficult to do, or something that one doesn't want to do, even if it isn't difficult? YOUR TURN

windchild< For me, it's something I don't want to do. If it is difficult to do, I don't mind trying to do it, but if I don't want to do it, it's hard to get myself motivated.

LEGS< It may seem more difficult to overrule your desires, but honestly, the degree of difficulty might change with different tasks and different degrees of danger. I have done things all my life I preferred not to do, simply because it was expected of me ... demanded of me ... or imposed upon me. That wasn't courage. Just a sense of duty.

FRAML< I think there are two levels here, each requiring a decision that is as courageous as the other. Most would say that doing the difficult thing which might cost you your life is the more courageous act; however, that courage is not the norm for most people, but overcoming a fear that you have may take more courage, because you are fighting against yourself.

daCrone< Courage pointing out or courage pointing in ... interesting.

LEGS< daCrone: Succinctly stated ... *s*

Yopo< I think maybe it takes more to do the difficult thing. I do stuff I don't want to every day. Seems more a matter of persistence than courage, most of the time.

order< Hmm ... not sure I would say it takes courage to do what you don't want to do ... think it takes something else ... maybe will power?

Lor< Some difficult tasks just require more perseverance than courage, perhaps. Performing something one doesn't want to do would probably indeed involve some courage.

FRAML< LEGS: I agree with your comment about Audie Murphy. Also with your "sense of duty" as why one does something. I've done things because of that myself. "Someone has to do this, so I'll volunteer." (Yuck! Never volunteer, I was once told.)

LadyV< I think LEGS made a good point. To my mind, duty is courage ... and small acts of daily duty that take courage instead of turning and running away when it gets tough make the world a better place.

Eliyah< Thinking ... if one has reluctance to do something ... perhaps one is being guided? If it must be done, then timing may be of importance. If it must be done now, then the universe may well fund the courage to accomplish?

order< Elijah: I agree that timing is a very important factor in doing.

Ben< I think it takes more courage to do what one doesn't want to do, and especially if it isn't difficult. In fact, I think the greatest courage, and the greatest battles, are entirely internal.

LEGS< Oh, Ben, sometimes my greatest battle is holding my tongue ...

windchild< I totally agree with you, Ben.

Yopo< Hmm ... I understand the internal battle part of what you said, and entirely agree. Maybe I'm missing the point with "doing what you don't want to do" though. Life seems so full up with things we must do that we don't want to. Maybe I'm thinking too much of all the small stuff or something ...

daCrone< The courage required when the potential loss is tied to a relationship is different from that which is required when the potential loss is to oneself.

LadyV< daCrone: That is an interesting statement. The comment Ben made about the struggle with internal self would fit here, I think.

order< Ben: I would agree the greatest battles are within. *S* But still don't think it's a matter of courage to do what one doesn't wanta do, unless he is fearful of doing, of course, and not just lazy. *VBS*

windchild< order: If you mean the difference of getting up and cleaning the house or telling someone something you don't want to tell them, then I agree.

order< windchild: Yes, big difference! *VVBS*

LadyV< order: I think will power is the result of courage. First you swallow your desire to be elsewhere, then the will kicks in. Lots of people stay in lousy jobs and put up with a great deal because that is the way it is, and come Monday they call on the will power as the result of courage to crawl out of bed and go out and feed the kids.

order< LadyV: **Hugs** I think will power can overcome fear and cause us to act courageously even when we are afraid. But don't think courage applies to things we simply don't want to do... will power does?

LadyV< order: *smiling* You have the last word as always ...

Eliyah< Ben: Seems the real topic is dealing with fears?

FRAML< I remember the comments I got about my courage when I decided to re-enlist as an NCO after having been an officer to make it to 20 year retirement. That was a heck of an internal struggle in making that decision, and I was amazed at the support I got from fellow officers and NCO's I knew for making it.

Eliyah< So fears may come from several sources ... fear of failure, fear of succeeding, old cellular fears from times long past, and recently learned fears.

order< Eliyah: And very serious fears too... like moths... shivers! *G*

FRAML< Eliyah: And fears generated by those who wish to use them to control others.

Eliyah< FRAML: Yup ... conditioned fears or learned fears ... some imitative fears unconsciously learned; e.g., from a fearful friend, parent, other significant person.

Ben< ALL: I was locked out. Couldn't connect to SpiritWeb. Bummer. I have one more question prepared, plus a setup for discussion. Shall I continue or quit?

[It was almost midnight when I posted this, so the scheduled hour was over.]

Yopo< Ben: It will likely require that you have persistence and/or courage tonight, but please do continue ... *G*

[The others present also said I should continue.]

Ben< QUESTION 3: There are several types of courage-over-time that can be described as the ability to continue doing something or the ability to keep on trying again and again. What does this description remind you of? Do you have an example of this type of courage? YOUR TURN

daCrone< Stamina is the first word that comes to mind ... but thinking *S*

LEGS< Well, Abraham Lincoln was defeated for office many times, I understand.

windchild< Facing fears over and over until you overcome.

sahadeva< Sheesh, Ben, I must be too old to join that discussion.

FRAML< Thomas Alva Edison saying that he now knew 'X' number of ways that wouldn't work to make an incandescent light bulb. But it is also the person who keeps going to school to better themselves to get a better job to provide for their family. Or doing that job LadyV stated because of necessity and their sense of duty to their family.

Yopo< HA! Reminds me of my job. Reminds me of you, Ben, and your seminar. *S* Uh, reminds me of all those who choose to see the light in the human heart, despite the terrible things we humans do.

daCrone< It seems to me that many instances of courage over the long haul are related to love ... the necessity of taking on a responsibility -- liked or disliked -- is done in the effort to preserve/foster a relationship ... for example, grandparents -- many of whom are raising their grandchildren because their own children have turned to drugs.

LadyV< A person that has to learn to walk again ...

LEGS< I think it takes courage to learn to walk or talk again, like following a stroke. It may not be thought of as courage by everyone ... but, hey, it isn't easy to do ... it would be easier to not try.

daCrone< (((LEGS))) Got some of that courage here at home. *S*

Stormrider< I sincerely hope you do not feel uncomfortable if I continue to watch. It seems I lack the courage to put my opinions down, but I'll try to give that last one a shot! Personally, it does not take courage to do either, it takes motivation -- courage follows, or at least holds hand in the doing of it. It is realized, or known to me in retrospect, if courage was needed!

FRAML< Stormrider: Lurking is fine. *S* Good point.

Yopo< Stormrider *S*

windchild< Sometimes it takes courage to motivate yourself.

LadyV< ... motivation ... good point! What would be the motivation? Hunger? Love for someone?

order< Ben: I think Virtue used to be a word that was used in this manner, to keep on keeping on regardless of what comes?

[Ben order: Yes. Patience and persistence and perseverence, steadfastness and faithfulness, are all types or manifestations of the virtue of courage-over-time.

Lor< Fortitude can involve courage, methinks.

daCrone< I also find courage in the conscious decision to act.

Sprinkles< I think courage is in the trying, applying, and overcoming of things that are unique, as in the uniqueness of each individual's life.

LadyV< Sprinkles: That says it all... and so well...

Sprinkles< LadyV: Thank you, but I also think that to "do" is courage also. *S*

LadyV< Sprinkles: I agree. I think that Yopo, seeing the inner person, considered courage in reference to being a doctor and telling a person he is dying, is much of how I perceive it. The hero can be anyone of us at anytime. I saw a man -- a wee man of great age -- lift a car off a man. Before God, how he did it, I do not know! I could not do it myself. He did not count the cost ... he did it. All of us have courage when we have to have it ... or so I feel ... I do not really know. I just plug along like the next one.

FRAML< George Washington, during the American Revolution. He had the courage, willpower, stamina, and sense of duty toward a greater good that kept him going and enabled him to motivate his army and the continental congress.

daCrone< The greater good ... FRAML, that is a big key.

FRAML< daCrone: Yes, George and 'greater good' just popped into my mind.

Eliyah< FRAML: Thinking also that Washington had a sense of destiny. George Patton also had this ... an inner assurance of outcome?

daCrone< Eliyah: That is an interesting point.

LEGS< I believe it is courage that takes spouses and children to Alanon and Ala-teen ... when trying to support an alcoholic mate who wants to change ... much courage to allow an ex-convict to return to the home that once housed him/her and try to make life worthwhile. Many human difficulties like this may also fall in the line of duty way of thinking ... but a lot of people won't try.

Yopo< Durn! Bet Ben's locked outta his own classroom again ...

LEGS< Here's a warning I received via email and would like to pass to everyone: Subject: Home Safety Alert - Heating Water in Microwave. I feel that the following is information that anyone who uses a microwave oven to heat water should be made aware of. About five days ago my 26-year old son decided to have a cup of instant coffee. He took a cup of water and put it in the microwave to heat it up (something that he had done numerous times before). I am not sure how long he set the timer for, but he told me he wanted to bring the water to a boil. When the timer shut the oven off, he removed the cup from the oven. As he looked into the cup he noted that the water was not boiling, but instantly the water in the cup "blew up" into his face. The cup remained intact until he threw it out of his hand, but all the water had flown out into his face due to the buildup of energy. His whole face is blistered and he has 1st and 2nd degree burns to his face which may leave scarring. He also may have lost partial sight in his left eye. While at the hospital, the doctor who was attending to him stated that this is a fairly common occurrence and water (alone) should never be heated in a microwave oven. If water is heated in this manner, something should be placed in the cup to diffuse the energy such as a wooden stir stick, tea bag, etc. It is however a much safer choice to boil the water in a tea kettle. Please pass this information on to friends and family. Didn't realize it would require so much space ... but please take note.

Yopo< LEGS: Jeez! I hadn't even considered such a thing could happen. Can't say I fully grasp how that happens. Thanks for the warning. I'm a low-tech, microwaveless guy, but we've got one of the durn things at work ...

daCrone< Thank you, LEGS ... not a thing I have ever considered.

Mausie< Not sure if this is some separate topic thing happening, but microwaves rearrange molecules ... like cheese sauce -- once it curds, it will never get back to that creamy sauce ...

holyspigot< Greetings ... May I lurk for a moment? Nice topic ...

FRAML< holyspigot: Feel free to lurk or join. If you scroll up 100 lines you can review Ben's setup for tonight's topic and what we've covered so far.

LadyV< I have admiration for quiet people that carry on daily lives without a lot of recognition. They are often not noticed. I know a janitor that raised fine men, and none of them have to scrub a toilet. When I see him, I ask him to dinner with me. I see that he has courage.

SilverFox< It takes a lot of courage to even 'be' ...

windchild< SilverFox: Yes, the courage to be ... sometimes it's easier to die than to live.

SilverFox< Yes, windchild, I agree -- it is easier to die. That's probably why there are record numbers of stillbirths, miscarriages, anything where the soul sees the plan has gone awry -- it has the option to withdraw.

Stormrider< I'm a bit old for this also, Ben. It didn't take courage for me to live past 69; it took anger, fear, stubbornness, and sticktoativeness. To me the word courage comes into play when we buy into the idea that we are limited beings ... the lie! Yeah, that and death, the lies we have bought into.

daCrone< I see the merit in that ... nothing is needed to overcome that which does not exist.

FRAML< Stormrider: I think that courage is standing up against "the lie" for what is true. And as a couple of folks said earlier, some of the greatest acts of courage are in overcoming one's inner fears to do something that needs to be done.

LEGS< I appreciate Ben, FRAML, Lor, and greyman for being so consistent in these seminars. Nice to have something in this world to count on. *S*

FRAML< Thank, LEGS. Flattery will get you everywhere *G*.

LEGS< Welcome, Stormrider. Nice to know I'm not the only senior citizen here. *s* And I'll always admire you, FRAML ... ((((((MaryHugs))))))

Mausie< Stormrider: I remember a post from the other day ... in the 12th to 16th century, do you know the estimate of individuals forced off the planet ?

Stormrider< <Mausie: That didn't take courage -- and I don't know what the hell you're talking about in the second place! Cain't remember what I had just this morning, not important. Were you there 12,000 years ago? I probably was, too ... can't remember if I was one of the courageous ones! But another time for discussing that! haha!

Mausie< Stormrider: Perhaps it was somebody else who was posting historical data about the 12th to 16th century and how many had lost their lives due to witch trials, etc ... sorry.

Stormrider< It also took kicking ass and to keep on truckin' in spite of life's adversities. I've tried to keep competitiveness out of it, neither to win or lose, just to get thru the shit -- the brick walls, big stone walls. Sooner or later, and if ya live smart enough or long enough, it's just the pebbles that remain to kick outta the way. Now folks, dem's the subtle happenings that can really throw ya for a loop.

Sprinkles< Hello, Stormrider. *s* Are not all those things you described not courage? To others, I would think so. You applied determination to overcome what life's battles you have had. You had the courage to let your anger be known. Others might find that they lack this quality and instead continue on their way without trying. *S*

Yopo< Hey! We'd better behave! Ben is back ... *S*

Ben< ALL: Well, that was fun ... my Internet provider died. Called the HelpDesk. They just now got it fixed. I'm going to go ahead and post what I have left before I get locked out again.

Ben< I think that patience, persistence, endurance, fortitude and faithfulness can all be considered types of courage, or manifestations of this type of courage.

Ben< ALL: Now I would like to post 4 paragraphs and a sub-topic for discussion.

Ben< From guitarist: Since I cannot be here this lovely Saturday evening, I've sent you a few thoughts in hope that they will help further the discussion on courage.

Ben< From guitarist: 1. A person who is influenced by *the power of negative thinking* (to the extent that someone such as myself is) can get out from under this influence if s/he can be shown *hope.* Belief may not be enough because, as Ben points out, people can say they believe something, but it's only what the person experiences for him/herself that ends up being believed in the heart.

Ben< From guitarist: 2. Hope brings forth the courage to reach out for the object of that hope.

Ben< From guitarist: 3. Hope can come from observing someone else do or be something that one wants to do or be. Example: Reading the material on Ben's and some of your sites -- as well as many others -- has given me renewed hope that maybe I can reach out for a real living spiritual life, without interference from spiritual darkness(es). This weekend, I *hope* to begin achieving it.

[Ben< guitarist is on a personal spiritual retreat this weekend.]

LEGS< I'm pleased to hear from guitarist ... who was here bright and early last week and was disappointed as was I to not have a seminar to attend ... *S*

Ben< DISCUSSION: In general, what do you think is the relationship between courage and hope? YOUR TURN

LEGS< Courage is almost always under-girded by hope, even if the one acting courageously doesn't stop to consider it. Would a fireman enter a burning building if he had no hope of getting out?

daCrone< Yes, LEGS, I think you are right. *S*

windchild< If you had no hope in anything, then I don't think you could muster up any courage. What would be the point?

Ben< LEGS, windchild: Glad to see you stayed. *S* Yes, I think hope and courage are directly related. There is a type of courage that is found in hopelessness, sometimes, but I think it is rare.

Yopo< Hmm ... Hope engenders courage, no doubt. I'm not sure there can even BE courage without hope. When folks act courageously in seemingly hopeless situations, I think maybe they've placed their hope outside the bounds of the situation. Those showing courage in the face of their own death, for example. The physical situation may finally be utterly hopeless. But hope remains outside the bounds of the situation. They look beyond their own death. Either to hope of their spiritual continuance, or to a hope that how they die will give something lasting to those who remain ...

LadyV< When people want to die, you try to help them find hope ... so that they will discover the courage to fight to live. Sometimes that is not so easy ... and sometimes you have to get them riled ... as Stormrider says ... (grinning) and Sprinkles says to Stormrider "are not all those things you described not courage?

Ben< Yopo, LadyV: Good points. "Placing hope outside the bounds of the situation" is a way of describing a certain type of faith ...

LadyV< I think LEGS is right also ...

FRAML< Ben: An excellent point guitarist made about having hope. If one does not have it, then too many times lethargy and just accepting the situation comes into play. It is in spreading fear, as was mentioned earlier, that those who seek power and control over others use it to make people think there is no hope for them, that only the person pushing the fearful situation can conquer it for them. I think Lenin was a master of this.

Ben< FRAML: Yes. Terror tactics are designed to intimidate. And domination is often accomplished by instilling hopelessness.

windchild< I think Yopo has hit the nail on the head: "Hope remains outside the bounds of the situation."

LadyV< Yopo: In regard to the statement about dying people leaving "something lasting for those that remain" -- some folks die really bitter and just plain mean. I know that is not on the topic, but I want to add it. They did not have the intestinal fortitude to have courage in life ... they just wanted to get even ... and it's so sad what they do to the families.

Yopo< LadyV: Yes. Nothing could be sadder than dying in hopelessness, I think. Death is NOT an end to hope. Someone we both know taught me that lesson, and taught it to me well. I am forever in her debt ... *s*

Sprinkles< I think that hope is not outside the bounds of courage. It is there. Like the air. It is not heavy and can be taken in by all. It can be picked up and carried into one's life, or just left there to breathe through it. It is before courage, it is after courage. Some have need of it, some do not. It is behind inspiration and after. It is not out of bounds; it is always within the bounds.

LEGS< FRAML, Yopo: You two analyzed it very well. From past experience, I know that fear/hopelessness is a vicious circle that entraps one to not seeing past either ... at which point it takes personal courage to even begin to raise your sights to seek a hope to cling to.

Ben< I'm reminded of a story. Six men were in a lifeboat. There was no wind. They rowed all day trying to reach shore. They were very tired, but they kept on rowing. As the sun set, one of them said "We aren't going to make it" and suddenly they had no energy. They all slumped over the oars and did nothing. After the sun set, they sat in the darkness, doing nothing, until one of them raised his head, looked around, and shouted: "There's a lighthouse!" Just as suddenly as it had vanished, their energy returned, and they rowed toward the light with renewed vigor.

LadyV< Ben: I like that story ...

windchild< Maybe the one man was expressing what they all feared and the other one gave them the hope they were seeking.

Sprinkles< Ben: Well, that story has the courage, the hope, applying, trying, and overcoming as well as the doing. :)

Ben< Sprinkles: Yes, in that story, the doing (physical) depended on the spiritual (non-physical) ...

Sprinkles< Ben: Yes, and the physical doing was enhanced with hope renewed.

Ben< ALL: That story was my last prepared post for tonight. I'm glad to have them all posted. My connection is working better now, though it was a pretty wild (and discouraging) hour-and-half from 11:30 to 1:00 am my time.

Yopo< Ben: Know I speak for all when I say we much appreciate you hanging in here this evening. Know it musta been very frustrating. But you've given us a very good seminar, in spite of all!

Tracey< Ben: IMHO courage comes from the soul. It is part of your being. It is ... and cannot be repressed. Even in the darkest hour you know it is there, if it is part of you, and you know you will connect with it again when it is time for your human being to access the courage of the soul. *S*

LEGS< Courage of the soul ... that would make a good book title. Hello, Tracey.

Tracey< LEGS: Yeah, hon, it would. *S* Is there any other kind? *S* Good to see you, dear one.

Stormrider< Well, here I go again -- but this hope-courage thingie, and there's gotta be another word here to make it a quinella -- haha (means 3 with same intent). I like to think in terms of "Faith, Hope, and Charity" who are living beings, Angels who reside on higher frequencies -- ya gotta open up heart to them, to this source, that's where it comes from -- as "love" -- love flows in (into, inside) through and around you, as does the Divine Rays of Faith, Hope and Charity! Now guess I better quit while I'm behind, and running outta courage. Might get slugged again, huh? *chuckling* Where's my source, ya say? -- Well, I got all that from Ascended Master Saint Germain Foundation training schools --- don't look at me -- dem guys up "There" made me do it! -- haahaha

7of9< Hope comes from knowing you are loved by your maker (God) and are promised never to be left alone, forsaken, forgotten -- not to speak of eternal life in reunion with God and all the beloveds -:) -- loved just as you are -- despite all shortcomings. This may not be recognized, however, until you are in great suffering and reach out to God or cry out for help.

LEGS< A thought, Ben ... We have all heard that loving someone leads us to thinking with our heart, so to speak. Perhaps being courageous calls on us to think with our gut, as in the phrase, "Gut it up and get it done." The down and dirty part of our active life is being courageous in spite of all drawbacks and obstacles, and we do it so we can get back to the good part of life ... thinking with the heart again ...

Tracey< LEGS: Good point, darlin ... love and courage hold hands all the time. That's why loved ones find a courage they did not know they had in times of crisis when saving someone they love ... and so it goes ... *S*

windchild< Goodnight all, thanks for an amazing evening. You have all taught me well.

Ben< windchild: [I wanted to reply to your post concerning my story before you left.] As I see it, hope and courage and the amount of energy available are almost always directly related.

windchild< Ben: I haven't considered the available energy side of it. That will give me something to think about. Thanks and goodnight.

7of9< Ben: That story is the same as the biblical account of Peter and some of the disciples who were caught in a storm in a boat and saw Jesus walking on the water (hope).

Yopo< Ben: Yeah, that energy thing. I suppose we could speculate on where the energy comes from. If hope only causes us to draw on reserves we didn't know we had, or maybe if it opens some sort of connection to outside sources. LadyV's comment about the old man lifting the car made me wonder about that ...

Ben< Yopo: As I see it, hope and courage amplify and release our own energy, our own spiritual life-force. That's why people glow when they are full of hope and courage, and look drained and gray when they feel hopeless or intimidated.

Yopo< That might explain the complexion of some in the office where I work. I had previously attributed it to florescent lighting ... *s*

LEGS< Ben: That is a very beautiful way to describe hope and courage ... much nicer than "gutting it up" ... *S*

LadyV< Ben: Good point ...

Yopo< Ben: I'm probably connection-obsessed. But I was remembering a long-past conversation. How love formed a connection that things could pass over. Was thinking perhaps hope might somehow work the same way. I've seen how hope shines in the eyes, though, and how hope has given people the strength to prevail. Your point is well-taken!

Ben< Yopo: Yes, caring-connections can carry energy from one who has more energy to one who has less -- and that energy can stimulate hope and courage in the recipient. This is what happens, for example, in the act of blessing.

LEGS< Yopo, Ben: The caring connection is really a web IMHO ... reaching in all directions with those you love being cocooned in the loving energy ...

Ben< LEGS: Yes. If we think about all the souls who care, and all their caring-connections, it is ... glorious!

Stormrider< OK, kiddos, I'm gonna kick back and listen now ... but I did give it a try, by gummies. Thanks and I'll try with great courage to shut up! -- tain't easy for me. I seem to mess up your flow ... sorry, but thanks again. "*S*

Sprinkles< Stormrider: My flow was not messed up. I enjoyed your input. *VBS* I hope you are determined to come back, I like your stubbornness. **S**

LadyV< I think TheFire comes on-line about this time and the connection works better. I notice that also. Could be the circuits are not so busy, either. Ben, ask him to join us sometime, if you don't mind. I don't know this man. Few do. It is like being the guest in the home of a person that is offering you a place to rest, and you do not see the host ...

Ben< LadyV: TheFire does come to the chatrooms sometimes, but almost always under another nickname, because otherwise it becomes a discussion about the web-site instead of spirituality.

Yopo< Hmmm ... Rene enters incognito? *G* There are a few who might behave a bit better if they knew that ...

LEGS< Ben: Thank you for the Seminars, and your presence here makes a big difference. I'm sure if you invited TheFire, he would try to be here for a lesson. I know he reviews them and has the greatest respect and love for you. He told me so.

Ben< LEGS: I would love to see Rene in these seminars, any time, by any nickname. I can ask him, but I hesitate to do so because I know he's working day and night to keep this whole web-site going.

LadyV< Ben: I think having a structure and a time-frame will make it easier for him. It will be specific. You would know best in regards to his time.

LEGS< I understand, Ben. Few realize the dedication of Rene ... and tonite's Stonehenge records will shock anyone, I venture to say. How discouraging (look at that word for what removing courage can do) for him to see how some people abuse his hospitality ... the foul language and intentional shock quality of the comments are sad portrayals of the chatters involved.

Mausie< I'm just getting over the shock of Stonehenge ... like 100 herods to the 100th squared.

sahadeva< wow

Yopo< Hello, JamesRD! *S* Very pleased to see you!

JamesRD< Namaste my friends ...

LEGS< Namaste, JamesRD ... how are you sweet man? How is our Blueye?

LadyV< Hello, James. I am also glad to see you.

JamesRD< I am ashamed of myself and must leave as I have desecrated this place ... Namaste ...

Yopo< JamesRD: Huh? I hardly think so. Several smiled to see your name. Blessings, my friend!

LEGS< Stay, JamesRD

LadyV< dear, dear James ... if you only knew how precious you are ... to so many.

Sprinkles< Ben: I wanted to thank you for the seminar although I wasn't aware of it taking place at first. I thought it was very good and it made me take time to think of what I have not given thought to in a while. Thank you! Will there be more seminars, and are they posted here?

Ben< Sprinkles: You're more than welcome. Glad you enjoyed it. Yes, I'll continue with this subject for the next couple of weeks (Sat nights at 11:00 pm eastern time). And transcripts of the previous seminars are on my web-site.

Yopo< Ben: Strikes me as a very good topic to continue with. Sorta getting into some new territory.

Ben< Yopo: Well, courage is certainly a sub-set of spirituality, and it ties in with several of the other subjects we've discussed.

LadyV< Ben: I would like to suggest that FRAML pop into the other chat rooms as he did tonight, and just invite people here. As Sprinkles says, many do not know about these meetings, and some do not know how to get to the other chat rooms. If he would not mind ... if he does this just as he enters to set up the room ...

Ben< LadyV: Good point. Thanks. I'll mention it to FRAML.

LEGS< *smiling* well, folks, I just can't seem to get myself going out of here tonite. Love being here with y'all. Everyone seemed to have good comments tonite for the seminar ... and hey! I just get lonesome, you know?

Yopo< LEGS: *LOL* I have on occasion said my good-nights, then said 'em again an hour later ...

LEGS< {{{{{JamesRD}}}} Hello, dear heart!

Yopo< Hello again, James! *S*

Ben< JamesRD: Hello, friend. Welcome, as always. Namaste.

Sprinkles< Hello, JamesRD *S*

JamesRD< I am sorry for my response ... I have never sworn or cursed in these rooms, but in a fit of anger I was very, very foul in another room. And once said, words can not be retrieved. I am ashamed of my actions. I thank you all dearly for your concern, yet the action was mine in entirety. My love and blessings to all ...

Yopo< JamesRD: *G* Oh, I most certainly wouldn't want friends here to know the words that sometimes come outta MY mouth. I attribute it to spending some time in the service. *S* If my mother knew, I'd have soap on my breath ... (Odor of sanctity about Yopo is actually the odor of soap ... *hehehe*)

Sprinkles< JamesRD: My goodness, but you sound heavy with sadness. Why do you choose to carry such a burden? Whatever it is, let it go. Yesterday is gone; today is in it's passing; tomorrow is anew. *VBS*

LEGS< Dear JamesRD ... sweet man, I guess we will have to oppose you entering sainthood this month. Ah, how good to know that you are indeed human, my good friend. Many a time I have found myself almost replying in like manner to herod. Sometimes we are taxed beyond all sensibility ... but how could we do less than be forgiving of you when we have so many times been encouraged and blessed by your words here? (((((((MaryHugs)))))))))

Ben< JamesRD: The fact that you have a sense of shame speaks well of you, in my opinion. Would that more people did. Namaste!

LadyV< JamesRD: Sometimes words are not heard with the intent to censure ... sometimes words burst out from a source within us that is not us ... but the pain in us. There is none among us that have not felt rage ... only thing is, when I am profane it comes out so funny no one takes me seriously. James ... let it go ...

Yopo< LadyV: *G* I had an aunt like that. Couldn't curse worth a ... Uh ... durn. But she persisted in trying, when taken with outrage. Got flustered when folks laughed ...

LadyV< Yopo: I have this quiet voice that does not raise ... and when it does, it sounds a bit like Tweety Bird ... which explains why the words are so funny ...

Ben< Well, friends, time for me to hang up the mouse. Having been locked out so long tonight, I'm looking forward to downloading the text tomorrow, to see what happened. Peace and blessings to you and yours. *poof*

Yopo< Good night Ben. Blessings ...

Sprinkles< Good night, Ben, LIGHT***LOVE***HAPPINESS***

LadyV< Night, Ben. Thanks for enjoyable evening.

Sprinkles< To the person that is pm-ing me, I have no knowledge of the workings of it. I have been told how, but it just seems to be beyond my grasp. My apologies in being unable to answer you. But I do thank you for your kind words and heartfelt intentions. I thank you and wish you well. **VBS**

Stormrider< It's been greaaaaaat, no kidding -- you peoples are super duper, and thanks, Ben, for my trial run here tonite, and for allowing my off-beat two "sense" worth -- Thanks mucho, Kiddos!

LadyV< Night, Stormrider. Come visit us again soon.

Stormrider< okidoki, LadyV ~~~~~~~~~~poofers~~~~~~~~~ zap!

Sprinkles< Good night, everyone, with hopes of seeing you again and the courage to put my words to screen. *S* LOVE * LIGHT * HAPPINESS* *sprinkles* *poof*

LadyV< Night, Sprinkles ... enjoyed chatting with you.

LadyV< "I go among trees and sit still. All my stirring becomes quiet around me like circles on water. My tasks lie in their places where I left them, asleep like cattle. Then what I am afraid of comes. I live for a while in its sight. What I fear in it leaves it. And the fear of it leaves me. It sings, and I HEAR its song." --Wendell Berry

22. Courage
Session 2
Sat 22 Jan 2000

Ben< ALL: Last time we looked at three types of courage and discussed the relationship between courage and hope. This time I'll try to develop some contrast by which we may be able to see this whole topic more clearly. Ready? Here we go ...

Ben< EXERCISE 1: This is a small exercise in word association. Please describe each of the two mental images that come into your mind when you hear or read these two phrases: (1) a brave dog, and (2) a cowardly dog. YOUR TURN

Sprinkles< Old Yeller was the first image, Wishbone the second. :)

nasus< (1) Teeth. (2) Hunched in a corner.

Ben< Sprinkles, nasus: OK! Thanks.

guitarist< Interesting question. I don't think about it much. Brave dog will defend his/her loved ones from attackers even to the point of self-sacrifice. Very aggressive stance. Cowardly dog will back up, run if he can. Size does not matter.

Yopo< Ha! Rin-Tin-Tin, and the Taco Bell dog

Ben< guitarist, Yopo: Likewise. *S*

FlamingEagle< I see a difference in posture, attitude, perspective ... not size.

Yopo< FlamingEagle: Right. The Taco Bell dog wouldn't intimidate even at 110 pounds. *S*

guitarist< I don't think about brave vs. cowardly dogs as a function of size. My next door neighbor dog is a black Labrador, and he thinks he's a pit bull. The real pit bull on the other side of the development thinks she's a Labrador. Go figure!

Sprinkles< I don't think it has anything to do with size, also. Wishbone always needs to apply a human characteristic, not his true self a dog. *S*

Ben< My mental image of a brave dog looks like Lassie: standing tall, with head erect and tail waving like a flag. My mental image of a cowardly dog looks like a cur, crouched down, head lowered, slinking away, with its tail between its legs.

FRAML< (1) Rin Tin Tin or Bullet. (2) Cowardly ????

FunBunny< 1. Lassie. 2. Yellow dog.

Ben< QUESTION: Which of these two mental images of dogs do you instinctively or intuitively like better than the other -- and why? YOUR TURN

Yopo< Oh, you've gotta like the alert, self-assured dog better, I think. Piteous quivery dog might tug at your heart a bit and win your sympathy, but he's gonna be hard to really like.

FunBunny< Yellow dog elicits desires to encourage, love, cheer, etc. -- i.e., the maternal instinct.

guitarist< Naturally, I think the brave dog has the better picture. I find that I'd have to protect the cowardly dog, and not the other way around. (I think my own dog might be the latter type. But, you never know. We haven't been in a situation to find out.) The brave dog can stand up for him/herself, and seems in command of the situation at hand. // Sprinkles: I understand now. Wishbone is not really a dog anyhow. More like a puppet.

Ben< guitarist: Remember that you started your post with the word "naturally" -- that may be significant later in this session. *S*

LEGS< Who was the bulldog in the comic strip with the yellow canary named Tweetie-bird?

FRAML< The brave dog, not the one which is constantly with it's tail between it's legs. But also not a dog which is attacking at any movement.

Sprinkles< hmmm... I don't dislike either; both have qualities that are important. In the help for understanding.

Yopo< I suppose the "why" has to do with the sort of company you like to keep, and how it makes you feel. A cowardly, defeated companion isn't going to be very uplifting company.

Ben< I instinctively like a brave dog better than a cowardly dog ... but while I was preparing for this session, I realized that I wasn't sure why I feel that way.

FunBunny< ... and the point being?

Ben< FunBunny: I'm pointing at something, but it'll be awhile until I get there. *S*

greyman< Ben: Odie.

FunBunny< greyman: Awwww ... you made me smile ... gotta love Odie!

Creativlit< I liked Scooby Doo ... he may have had a lot of faults but he was real.

FlamingEagle< Could this tie into societal expectations?

Jello< Lots of good stories out there about how cowardly dogs are turned into brave dogs (well ... people, that is). Those are usually some of my favorite stories.

FRAML< A brave dog will be one who does guard duties typically associated with dogs; a cowardly one will run when threatened instead of sounding the alert.

guitarist< FRAML: Actually, my dog must be one of the brave ones, then. He sounds the alert rather than running.

Ben< COMMENT: The words *cower, coward, cowardly, and cowardice* come from the Old French word *couard* which literally means "with tail between the legs."

FunBunny< I don't know where this is leading, BUT I do know, inasmuch as I have oodles of the maternal thing in me and the underdog tends to 'draw me', I have learned this to be of course a joy in service, BUT a terrible handicap inasmuch as I have had to learn (and still need to): balance, good judgment, avoiding transference, enabling co-dependence and dependence ... lots of stuff ... things I've had to learn through experience to assess better and to adjust, so I can counsel and teach my children from my own hard knocks and good experiences.

Ben< EXERCISE 2: Instant past-life regression, please. *Shazam!* You are a woman living in a cave. You and your mate and your children are eating supper (mammoth steak, yummy!). A small bear comes into the cave and tries to grab your supper. You hit the bear with a stick. It attacks you. Your mate runs away. The bear rips you with its claws, grabs your supper and runs away. After awhile, as you lie there bleeding to death, your mate comes back. You ask him "Why didn't you help me?" He says "I was scared." As you leave your body and drift out of the cave, what thoughts and feelings are you taking with you? YOUR TURN

FlamingEagle< 'How DARE you!' -- disappointment and feelings of being let down or betrayed, anger.

Creativlit< I would never define courage as a feat of testosterone and brawn.

Ben< Creativlit: Testosterone and brawn don't help if courage is lacking.

Sprinkles< Understanding, sympathy, compassion. "I'll be back and we will meet again, my love."

FRAML< "Men are cowards."

greyman< "I'm outta here."

guitarist< It's rather interesting that I'm the one who hit the bear, not my mate. How I'd feel depends on whether I've foreseen this end based on what I know of him. I'd probably say to myself, "How did I get stuck with this loser?" or some such cave-woman equivalent. "Now, will my children be OK? Not if I'm any example!"

Jello< Also, how do the thoughts evolve as the departed spirit remembers not just her own life, but her children's?

Yopo< "NEXT time, I'm gonna be VEGETARIAN. Durn bear wouldn'ta come in after a roasting turnip. And I'm gonna choose my men better."

Creativlit< Logically, I would consider that the flight-or-fight syndrome is a normal process and running from the bear falls into that and the more intelligent human by natural laws would seek the route of self preservation.

FunBunny< Forgive him for he knew not what he did. He obviously reacted to his first or emotional or natural man response. Had he time to think, he could have employed logic enough to think outside himself. But, hey! He was probably a Neanderthal ... *smile* ... and wasn't that yet evolved.

Ben< I probably would be thinking "What a coward!" and wishing I had found a more courageous mate.

guitarist< Ben: Why do I think you're going to throw us a curve ball?

Ben< guitarist: Because you've been here before?

Creativlit< Courage is about having faith and conviction in yourself.

Jello< Many animals think outside themselves. I suspect most early human women had a certain ideal even back then.

FunBunny< I'm thinking I need the cliff notes version here.

guitarist< Ben: I don't know, but my mom always said my dad didn't have any backbone. I don't think it has to go back that far. *s*

Creativlit< I don't know, it's just me ... and I live in an area with bears and have to deal with them camping ... to me a fool is the one who stands there and tries to clobber a bear and be an idiot, and the smart one runs like hell ... even dumber still is challenging one. I have a hard time trying to process this thought as some sort of idea or concept about courage. Then, too, when meeting up with a bear, it is best to just stand still. Anyhow, that is my take on it. If I were to identify persons who I felt really had courage, I would select Rosa Parks, Mother Theresa ... like it or not, Bill Clinton, for all the humiliation, he didn't quit or run away and he still gets out in the public and does his job ... and there are many more persons I could think of. Courage is a woman who gathers all she has of her will and walks out of a marriage where she is beat every day, not know where she will lay her head down at the end of that day.

Ben< EXERCISE 3: In your next life, you are again a woman living in a cave. You are old (45) and ill, but basically comfortable. In a sleepy reverie, you go back through your memories. You were a vivacious girl, but very choosy. You didn't select a mate until you were almost full-grown. You remember him now. Time after time, he faced dangerous animals and predatory men. He fought for you and for your children. Eventually he was killed by a tiger. But your children were grown by that time, and now your daughters take care of you. As you rise up from your body and drift out of the cave, what thoughts and feelings are you taking with you? YOUR TURN

FunBunny< "For a family of our time in history, we were a functional family system."

Sprinkles< OK, if the shoe was on the other foot (male comes to rescue and woman runs), is the woman a coward? I don't think so.

guitarist< Sprinkles: Ben didn't say the woman ran. I wouldn't have run, but helped him beat the bear back. I would thank G-d my children had a good chance at life because their father had heart.

Yopo< I suppose there might be a sense of peace at having made good decisions, and perhaps some thoughts that you may be going to rejoin someone who was always devoted to you.

Sprinkles< Gratefulness to my daughter for her giving part of her life in caring for me, and to my husband for the courage to continue on without him. (Gosh, I'm a real push-over.)

guitarist< I would remember him with love and respect.

FlamingEagle< Is the peace there because of the security you felt all those years?

FRAML< She is probably thinking that she found a good man, and he was worth waiting and searching for. He was a good protector.

Ben< I probably would be thinking "I'm glad I waited to select a brave mate."

guitarist< Ben: In this life (I don't know whether I've had others), I did just that. I waited for the right guy. I'm glad I did. *VBS*

[Ben< guitarist: Yes. *VBS*]

greyman< "Not a bad life. Can't wait until electricity is invented." *g*.

FunBunny< And ... 'rising out of body' ... on to the next adventure ...

guitarist< Creativlit: Thank you for teaching us how to deal with bears! *s* But Ben said it was a small bear, big enough to kill us, but small enough to fight. Anyhow, we were in the cave, with nowhere to run ... and I agree with you about the courageous women you mentioned.

Creativlit< guitarist: There is no such thing as a bear small enough to fight but big enough to kill. I personally wouldn't want a mate that unintelligent. I would want someone who knew how to do the right thing in the first place as far as preservation of food in a safe manner to prevent bear problems. Personally, I identify courage as also concomitant with intelligence.

guitarist< Creativlit: thank you again. I guess I must have Ben's point all wrong? I don't know bears up close. But I know something had to be done, so I picked what I would do if it were something else. What, I don't know. I just thank G-d that I don't have an unintelligent husband. Maybe he would have set a trap outside the cave and put meat there so the bear would go there instead of right for our supper! Then we'd have more supper.

FunBunny< Courage for Ms Bunny here is STAMINA. PATIENCE with others faults and weaknesses as well as my own whilst we all work out our existence, make mistakes, try again, and enduring graciously and lovingly with a happy attitude to the end. AND Courage to Ms. Bunny is deriving the positive out of even the most negative of situations.

guitarist< FunBunny: Reminds me of my husband's old boss's three requisites for success: competence, understanding the needs of others, and toleration of the imperfect.

FunBunny< guitarist: Cool credo, particularly the last quality. *S*

guitarist< FunBunny: Thanks! :)

animalspiritwalk< Hello, I have been reading all of the posts. I have a question and statement, something I have asked myself in many situations after they occurred: How can you have courage if you don't have faith?

Creativlit< animalspiritwalk: I agree with you ... faith is vital to courage, because you can't have courage if you have no faith.

FRAML< animalspiritwalk: I think that is another aspect of courage in what one is facing. Perhaps it is on the plate for next week, or after tonight's summary.

Ben< ALL: End of past-life regression. *Shazam!* You're here in your present life, with little or no conscious memory of your past lives (unless you've explored them). Now I'd like to post two definitions and a summary to show where I was headed with these exercises, and then open the meeting for discussion.

Ben< DEFINITION: According to Webster's Dictionary, courage is: 1. the attitude of facing and dealing with anything recognized as dangerous, difficult, or painful, instead of withdrawing from it; 2. the quality of being fearless or brave; valor.

Ben< DEFINITION: According to Webster's Dictionary, a coward is a person who lacks courage, especially one who is shamefully unable to control his fear and so shrinks from danger or trouble. (Notice the word "shamefully" in this definition.)

Ben< SUMMARY: The semantic opposite of courage is cowardice. Most people seem to instinctively or intuitively admire courage and despise cowardice -- in themselves and others. This may be more than cultural conditioning. It may be coming from the accumulation of karmic memories of numerous experiences and observations of the results of courage and cowardice over the course of many lifetimes.

FRAML< Ben: Yes, probably karmic memory for me on my fear of falling.

Yopo< It's interesting how courage is the thing first defined, then cowardice is described as its absence. To me that implies that the positive trait is thought of as being more or less the norm, and cowardice a deficiency from the norm. Not entirely sure what to make of that ...

Creativlit< My thought, though, is that how courage and cowardice are defined is completely relative to the culture and society of the moment.

FunBunny< Courage is PUSHING through and past fear ... into the unknown and accepting the outcome of your choices.

LEGS< Interesting that Cower and Power only start out differently in spelling but end differently in action.

FunBunny< OOO hey cool! FRAML just told me that PUSHING through FEAR was last week's seminar. I must be 'in the zone'.

Jello< The one or more steps above instinctive dislike of cowardice, however, appear to be the lesson in your average one-hour TV show for kids: "Kids, it's OK to be scared. Everyone is scared in <situation X>. You just have to face that fear." I seem to recall a seminar long, long ago on fear. This seems to tie in somehow.

Yopo< Jello: Yeah, good point. The courageous and the cowardly may feel the same degree of fear in a given situation. It is the way we respond that defines us. "Fearless" isn't the same thing as "courageous" ...

Ben< Yopo: Yes, courageous isn't the same as fearless. I intend to expand on (illustrate) that point next time.

Jello< My thought on the one-hour children's show was that I have seen better stories overseas than the ones I see here; they more directly discuss how to be courageous even after multiple defeats, even multiple defeats to cowardice. I like those. The other thing I like are stories about "What is true courage?" That's another great story line.

FlamingEagle< Part of accepting your present is accepting and forgiving yourself for past acts of cowardice.

animalspiritwalk< Ben: When you have a sec, I would like to ask you a question pertaining to courage. (In my case it may have been insanity. *LOL*) I have consequences that I may suffer from due to my "courage". I go to court on Monday as a result ...

guitarist< Proving courage is probably the reason why a lot of kids get in trouble. They don't have confidence in their own courage, so when it's doubted by a schoolmate (I'm thinking bully), they tend to go for the trap. It seems to be a deep-seated concern under normal circumstances as well. As parents, I think we need to give our kids chances to know their own strength before someone bad challenges it.

animalspiritwalk< guitarist: I believe that kids of today have no faith in who they are, also they get a bad rap from the actions of their peers. But if they had faith in themselves, resulting in higher self-esteem, not false ego, they would excel academically and personally, therefore reducing the amount of "troublemakers".

Ben< ALL: Just another comment: I think it worthwhile to consider the possibility that a lot of our "instinctive or intuitive" reactions may be coming from (subconscious) karmic memories. The (perhaps long-ago) situations in which those reactions were conditioned may be very different from our present situations, and yet the reactions tend to remain with us.

Jello< Ben: Hadn't quite thought of the karmic angle on this one, but I do see it. Was having trouble tying everything to just the good ol' selfish gene ...

greyman< Ben: Thank you. I will now have nightmares of being Zena the Princess Warrior tonight. *G*

Yopo< Ben: But even if the source of "intuitive responses" is long-past and long-forgotten experiences, I wouldn't think that would necessarily mean the response is correct and proper. Might we not also accumulate inappropriate things like that? Our seemingly instinctive fear of what is strange or different, for example. We might have many past experiences where the strangers appearing in our midst were a very real threat. Yet that response can also get us into much trouble.

Ben< Yopo: The response may have been appropriate, necessary, in the previous situation (such as living in a cave with dangerous animals all around), but not necessary or appropriate in the present lifetime. My karmic memories of swordsmanship and instinctive skill with a sword are like that.

Sprinkles< The definitions of shamefully and pain come to thoughts of the male in this scenario. Because of his fear, he would have to suffer the loss of his mate, and that pain would be taken on him for the rest of his lifetime. The saying "woman scorned" when the bear entered. Being a female and mother, I would see no fear when it came to protect the children -- but if I did run, I would have been in the shame and the pain, had I had the time to think.

Ben< Sprinkles: In the first stone-age scenario I posted, if the man was ashamed that he ran away and didn't help his mate chase the bear out of the cave, he very well may have resolved to try to be more courageous (in the rest of that life and subsequent lives). Thus, shame and regret that lead to a resolve to do better can have very positive long-term results.

Sprinkles< Ben: Yes. I agree.

Creativlit< The only thing I have been trying to point out is that not all of us would define courage or cowardice as the same thing. Kinda like love ... ask everyone in the room how they would define what love really is ... same with fear. Many of you would have similar answers ... close, but not the same. Not everyone would see it or define it the same. So therefore these things can be very relative and subjective to the situation and persons involved, and culture and society. Not all understand it as being the same thing. Look how many took my relating my experience as different as some sort of personal challenge or something when nothing was ever directed that way. I only stated I defined it as something different and tried to relate why it was a different experience for me. So how we see courage or cowardice is also defined by our own personal experiences.

guitarist< Creativlit: I think that courage is the same; the forces that bring it out are different, and our reactions might *seem* different because the steps to counter the forces require different strategies. So, what one person sees as courageous might seem cowardly to another. But we don't know all the forces the person was responding to.

Creativlit< Right, guitarist. I get told a lot that I have a lot of courage because I am a single mom with 4 kids trying to go to college, and one of my kids is disabled. I don't see it or view it as courage. To me that is how life has always been, and it is a "normal" thing for me, so I don't relate to it in the same way. Now for me, courage, I think ... OK, like next week when I start chemo ... I have no fear, no anxiety, and have complete faith that all will be well. That to me, for myself, I feel is courage. How I would define it for others would be different for each individual. If a guy normally goes out every day trying to challenge bears, I wouldn't consider him very courageous. Or someone very agile running the 10k race, but here every year there is a man who walks in braces with crutches in the bloomsday race ... every year he is the last to finish, hours after the race is over, and only one TV station stays and gives a live showing of his crossing the finish line. Now that's courage to me. The more agile man running the same race I wouldn't feel the same way about.

guitarist< Creativlit: I agree. The one who has the highest hurdle is the most courageous. It sounds as though you are going through a lot. Blessings on you and your children. You *are* courageous, I don't care how self-effacing you are! (((HUGS)))

Creativlit< guitarist: *blush* Thanks. I'm just trying to create discussion though.

LEGS< Ben: Why am I such a doormat?

guitarist< LEGS: A doormat? You? I don't believe it.

Ben< LEGS: Are you a doormat? If so, maybe that thought and feeling could lead you to remember an event or series of similar events in which your "doormat" reactions were necessary and/or appropriate.

LEGS< It is, if not a doormat, a distinct lack of personal courage to stand up for myself and the things I want to do in my life. Sometimes I excuse it as peace-keeping ... not making the argument because it is just me and my ideas that may not warrant a battle ... so I go along with what others think I should do.

Jello< I was thinking about courage recently, and it seemed to me that courage was what little people have when they face big challenges and refuse to back down ... saw more and more how a big strong person (physically, politically) may need (have?) less courage until he(she) faces something much bigger ...

Creativlit< LEGS: I did like you for a very long time. I wish I could claim it was courage that made me change. I don't think it was, though. I got angry ... angry at being used, hurt, and having everything taken away from me, and always giving up myself to please everyone else. My motivator was anger, but I used the anger, not as a bad thing, but as a powerful motivator to change myself. I can still give and be kind, but once I got that anger up, I finally started drawing some personal boundaries. I also let go of worrying about upsetting everyone. At first it was scary, but then it was so liberating ... to be free ... and then I started growing into who I am, finding out I really am that I never let myself have the opportunity to do so before.

LEGS< Thanx, Jello and Creativlit.

Yopo< Maybe our lessons become increasingly refined with the passage of lifetimes. The cave-woman in the story first learns she should choose a more aggressive and steadfast mate, and thinks of men who always stand their ground and kill cave bears and leopards and such. Then maybe, she learns that such men are always eventually eaten by tigers. Perhaps her definition of "courage" eventually becomes more refined.

guitarist< Yopo: ... and men who get eaten by tigers learn that they need some engineering principles to preserve themselves, like making traps, what to put in them to lure the animal, etc.

Yopo< The tigers and cave bears learn, too: "Yep. Them humans is good eatin' but you sure as heck don't wanna let 'em get hold of a sharp rock or a pointy stick." *LOL*

Jello< Yopo: Or maybe, as I sometimes suspect, hyper-aggression becomes in some way selected for ... then you get people who enjoy beating up animals ... and people.

Yopo< A certain amount of aggression is a good thing, and evolution selects for it. Trouble is, the trait is carried in streams through time in the gene pool, and sometimes the streams flow together into one individual's makeup. When THAT happens, it ISN'T a good thing ...

Ben< animalspiritwalk: Earlier, you asked if anyone can have courage without faith. What do you think about that?

Jello< Re: Faith: I think faith gives hope, and hope inspires courage where there might otherwise be none. If one is dealing with something so otherwise terrible and vast and horrible, few other things can help fuel courage than faith and those things that encourage faith.

Ben< Jello: Well said (about faith and hope and courage).

Creativlit< I agree. I think courage is one of those things that doesn't come alone ... it walks hand in hand with faith, and hope.

FlamingEagle< hmmm... I'm thinking about present life and the faith (and subsequent courage) necessary to deal with issues at times.

Jello< What else but faith (not necessarily of a particular religion) promises spiritual laws and/or Spirit that is there to help see one safely through, say, a battle that is completely spiritual? In a material battle, one could trust in muscles or weapons or money. In a spiritual battle, or certain psychic battles, there is only faith and those things or people who encourage faith.

animalspiritwalk< Ben: I don't know if you heard, but last Sunday, I was out with a female friend of mine. We used to date for six years, and recently ended our relationship, yet we are still great friends. Anyway, three men approached her on the street. There was a good amount of people around. When they noticed that I was with her, the three focused their attention on me. (Before they even showed up, I swear I heard chanting, yet my friend did not when I asked her if she could hear the chant.) Well, two of the guys grabbed me, my arm and leather jacket. I not only heard the chant but felt it also.

animalspiritwalk< At this point, I am only relaying to you what was told to me by witnesses. I punched the first guy in the face; the second guy I threw over the roof of a parked car, and the third guy ran, I chased him down, caught him, grabbed him by the throat, slammed him against a wall, and threw him into the street. I went back to the first guy and picked him up by his throat. Then the cops, and a store manager, and other people broke it up.

animalspiritwalk< Ben: What the hell was this all about? People said I made a screeching sound like a mountain lion; another said I sounded like a bear, and many said I was growling like an attack dog when I chased the third guy down. I was arrested yesterday afternoon and released. My attorney said charges are being filed against me for "attack with a lethal weapon" (several counts), "assault and battery with a lethal weapon" (three counts). They were pending attempted murder charges, but chose not to. I have two black belts in Martial Arts. I used none of my training, yet I am being charged by three men for defending myself. Now I have no recollection of what happened, but normally I wouldn't do something so extreme. I have been on a beautiful spiritual journey, and then this happens. So, was this courage, in your opinion? I don't know what to call it.

Yopo< animalspiritwalk: WHOA! Sorry to hear about your recent troubles. I should maybe clarify that I made the preceding post before I saw yours. *S*

animalspiritwalk< Yopo: That's all right. I really don't know what drove me to that extreme. One thing I do remember is feeling the power within. It wasn't mine, and much bigger than me by all means. Yes, I am nervous about court. What do I tell the judge? "Oh, by the way, it was my spirituality within that drove me to use so much force." *LOL* If that doesn't put me in jail, definitely the funny farm.

Yopo< animalspiritwalk: *S* I don't think I'd take that approach with the judge. I'd probably emphasize that I thought my lady-friend was physically threatened and they actually put their hands on me.

animalspiritwalk< Yopo: That is the defense my attorney is going to use: "fear of physical harm" plus we do have witnesses of self-defense.

guitarist< animalspiritwalk: What you did in protecting your friend was courageous. Now, though, you're going to have to call on more courage, to maintain the rightness of your cause. You said that two of the guys grabbed you first. That's important to remember.

animalspiritwalk< From my previous post, I believe I was feeling my spirituality strong within, not to harm, but to protect. I could have gone in panic mode, yet I was very calm and orderly about it. I believe, without faith in a higher power, or faith of oneself, then chances are (speaking for myself) I would walk away from many situations ... physical and non-physical situations.

Ben< animalspiritwalk: What you did sounds to me like a conditioned response. Part of it may have been conditioned in this life, in the martial arts training, but most of it probably was conditioned in more than one previous life as a warrior. What you did would have been essential then and is essential now (in my opinion), but this society is trying to make self-defense and defense of others illegal.

animalspiritwalk< Ben: I have been thinking the same thing, but it still sounds nuts in this day and age.

Jello< Hmm. On the topic of self-defense, here's my favorite quote (part of it, rather): "Turn the cheek before being struck. Thus the attacked is saved hurt and the attacker is saved from committing sin." I recall a policeman friend who took up that philosophy and practice (Aikido) and was able to dramatically reduce the violence he had to use.

animalspiritwalk< Jello: Very well put. Normally that is how I am. If trouble is around, I remove myself from it without conflict (if possible, which it usually is) or don't put myself in situations that can have trouble waiting for me.

Jello< animalspiritwalk: You said the power wasn't yours? Do you know whose it was? I guess what I'm saying is -- and honestly this is kinda awkward for me because of course I don't know you or the situation at all -- but I just think the whole big question comes down to: Whose power was it? (Sorry, just had to say that.)

animalspiritwalk< Jello: I agree with you still, and your policeman friend. Do me a favor, though: place yourself in my situation. You are with a friend, three men are in front of you, two of them grab you. Now tell me, are you going to smile and see if they are just playing around? Hell, no, you will react in any way you can. The human body will pump enough adrenaline in you, which is called the fight or flight syndrome (for real). Now I own my part of the situation, that I didn't need to chase the third guy down. Yet like I said, I had no control over the situation. So with that said, please don't try to say I was wrong for my actions of self-defense (at least against the two that grabbed me), because you weren't there, and if you had been I believe if you were in my place, you would have reacted the same way I did (at least for the first two guys)!

Jello< animalspiritwalk: No, I definitely don't think self-defense is wrong. I'm sorry it came out that way. Very much failing to convey thoughts from my addled head tonight. Yopo spoke of anger ... I think that's more my question. I wonder if the energy was angry?

animalspiritwalk< Jello: In response to your question on whose power it was, I believe it may have been my Native American ancestor spirits within, or perhaps my spirit guides working through my physical being. I mean, I remember that I heard the chants, and more-so felt the chants, before this all took place. I asked my friend if she heard it. She said no. I asked because it stirred something within me; it even felt a little erotic.

[Ben< animalspiritwalk: Conditioned response from this life or past lives is one possible cause of actions such as you described. Discarnate influence is another. Perhaps your Native American (warrior) ancestor spirits did take control of your physical body in that situation. If so, they were the ones doing the chanting.]

Jello< Well, re-reading, I see now that I wasn't being helpful at all. I apologize. In any case, I guess your battle is now more a legal one. (Shudder) I really do hope you win.

Ben< Jello: "Turn the other cheek" is a deliberate choice by which one can overcome one's automatic fight-or-flight reaction. It is an example of self-control. However, it doesn't lead to peace when the striker is a bully. I learned that the hard way, and it took a long time, from the first day of first grade to the first week of my junior year in high school. That was when I discovered there are situations in which the only path to peace is a swift right cross to the bully's nose.

guitarist< animalspiritwalk: As Yopo said, the other thing is that they were after *her* first. I agree with Ben, that self-defense and other-defense is important, and I hope that it will not be made illegal. If we are supposed to lie down and die like jellyfish, we'll be right ... *dead* right ... and soon, to be perfectly legal. Then, I can see how no one will be safe, since we can't even defend our young children. Is that what's intended by the lawmakers?

animalspiritwalk< guitarist: I believe that is where the legal system is asking society to have the "courage" to call the police to let them do their "job"! I think that is a crock of shit. What would have happened if I didn't choose to do something? Surely no one else that witnessed this event had "courage" to help us out when my friend and I were out-numbered. I agree with your post 100%.

Creativlit< animalspiritwalk: I did something similar once when I chased a man down with an ax. I don't know where it came from within me, but for me it came from absolute self-preservation. It was almost instinctual behavior. I was threatened, and there was no thought to it, and I really never realized what happened until it was all done and said.

FlamingEagle< Creativlit: I would be careful about using Anger as a motivator. Usually anger is an emotion used to cover up more painful or distressing emotions.

Creativlit< No no no ... I don't see anger that way. I see it simply as a motivator emotion. It can be used constructively or deconstructivly. For me, it is what gives me the fire to try to do well and not give up, to keep on fighting each day and try to reach my goals. I take the things that make me angry and try to turn them into success ... for example, my frustration with peoples lack of understanding of my sons disability. I could fret and stew, complain, cry, and never accomplish anything, but using the energy of that anger and trying to turn it to something positive and not only benefit my son or my family I try to benefit others as well. So I now go out when asked and give public speeches about my sons disability to help educate and sensitize other people. I try to do that with most things that make me angry, and then try to accept the things I can't change: for those, I give ceremony to those emotions: I honor them their right of being, then mourn their passing and let them go.

FlamingEagle< Creativlit: OK, it looks like you are using the situation, creating the anger as your motivator then. That is different than a person doing things in a fit of anger. Thank you for clarifying for me. Hugs to you for being courageous by facing the situations.

Yopo< FlamingEagle: I agree that anger is sometimes a proper motivator, but it is dangerous to ACT in anger. There must be time for thought between motivation and response. Problem with anger is that it can be sorta free-floating, and spring back in response to things unrelated to its original source.

Creativlit< Yopo: I agree that there needs to be time when responding to anger. Myself, I take time out and away, and first try to define what it is that really bothers me ... what I can change, what I can't ... and sort it all out.

FlamingEagle< Yopo: I must disagree slightly about anger being free-floating. I once had a real problem with anger, and the key for me was to finally realize and accept that anger is an Action, not a Reaction. Anger is a choice. Rather than blaming a person or situation for your anger, you take control of it and CHOOSE whether or not to become angry in a situation.

Ben< FlamingEagle: Very good point about anger as an action rather than a reaction.

Creativlit< I somewhat agree on that. Anger is a verb, an action or activator, but I don't like the idea of squelching out or trying to deny feelings like anger or fear, because then they build up and can explode, or one buries them and they eat away at you from within. One way or another, its there and you have to deal with it. But I had the opposite problem: I had to learn to get angry. I had to learn to feel.

FlamingEagle< Creativlit: Don't bury the anger. I fully agree. Allow yourself to feel it AND the other emotions beneath it ... then deal with them.

Yopo< FlamingEagle: That comment I made was perhaps intended more as a reminder from me to myself. *S* Anger is one of my old personal demons ...

FlamingEagle< Yopo: OK. I remember thinking that I had made progress with my anger when I would get off the phone with my sis and be angry for only three hours, rather than three days. We have improved more since that time.

Yopo< FlamingEagle: *G*

guitarist< Ben: How are the lawmakers trying to make self-defense illegal? I mean, what justification are they using? It sounds like the "insanity defense" all over again. How many years did people suffer through that before we realized that it was itself crazy?

Ben< guitarist: Perhaps the lawmakers are trying to reduce violence in general. More likely they want more and more control over the population. Sheep ...

guitarist< Ben: baaaah! I hear ya!

Jello< What about the insanity defense? (confused)

guitarist< Jello: The insanity defense let a lot of murderers off the hook, especially when they started using it, I guess, about 25 years ago. This thing about trying to make self-defense and other-defense illegal is not the first stupid thing American lawmakers have done!

Sprinkles< It is sad, the way the laws are. You have to wait to be a victim. I have seen it in many cases. Our choices are our own.

Sprinkles< animalspiritwalk: If you applied the first bodily contact to these guys, and there are witnesses to testify to that, you very well may be held for that responsibility. If any of the three touched you or restricted your movement, with witnesses to that fact, you would have a good case. My hubby had a similar situation occur. The laws are strict, regardless of how many there are. The one to touch or restrict in any way first is the one held responsible for the outcome. That is what we learned. Not to strike the first blow.

animalspiritwalk< Sprinkles: Two of the three guys did grab me; one grabbed my arm, the other my leather jacket by my collar area.

Sprinkles< animalspiritwalk: Then have no fear, just a good lawyer that does his job in the researching of your case. You can also do your own follow-up if you can.

Yopo< animalspiritwalk: You must take care to show no anger in the courtroom when re-living the events that brought you there.

animalspiritwalk< Yopo: Yeah, you are right. I'm just getting heated up over re-living it now. *shakes head* // Jello: I want to apologize. Yes, I am heated up over this, and rightfully so, I believe, but I think some of my responses to you were on the abusive side, and for that I apologize. *S*

Jello< animalspiritwalk: It seems distinctly a justice issue, and I certainly don't blame you for being angry. (I'd be!)

guitarist< (((animalspiritwalk))): Be sure you walk into the courtroom with the Great Spirit beside you. I'll be praying for and with you.

animalspiritwalk< ((Jello)) and ((guitarist)): Thank you. *S* I need to step out, lighten up, loosen up, and come back down to earth. *S* Will look in ya later, everyone.

Jello< Blessing, animalspiritwalk!

LEGS< animalspiritwalk: Though this conversation/discussion is about courage, and your actions were courageous in the extreme ... and surely the young lady appreciated them ... a lot is going to hinge on whether you have had any similar charges against you previously, or other kinds of legal charges. You yourself said you don't really remember this, so I'm not sure courage is the right definition ... rather it was blind instinct of self preservation. Stark fear could have been the motivation.

Yopo< animalspiritwalk: *S* Yep. I know the drill. One can think about the thing that provoked the anger, and the anger returns even though the event has passed. If that happens in the courtroom, you will look the part of the aggressor even though you aren't. I would try to look the part of a choirboy set on by bullies en route to church. *G*

animalspiritwalk< LEGS: I thought about that also, but it happened so fast, I don't believe I had any fear. Yet again, there is much I don't remember ... and no, I was not intoxicated, either. *S* // Yopo: CHOIRBOY!!! Awwwww mannnnn, do I have to??? *LOL*

Yopo< animalspiritwalk: Just try to remember not to bow to the prosecuting attorney if you take the stand. *S*

guitarist< animalspiritwalk: I agree with Yopo. Your keyword is CHOIRBOY. *s* Blessings on you and your friend.

Jello< I have almost no legal clue except to say, "I hope you have a lawyer" or something stupidly cliché ... I do wish you the best, though.

guitarist< Seems as though just talking about courage gives the people in the room energy ... I can't believe we're all still here.

Creativlit< One thing I learned when appearing in court was: when in doubt as to what to say or how to act, just remain quiet and let your attorney do the talking for you ... and don't let the opposing attorney get your dander up.

Yopo< Courtrooms are as much a place of perception and emotion as of cool reason and justice. Alas ...

[Ben< Yopo: Our whole justice system seems to be going from reliance on reason to manipulation of emotions, and thus from rational to irrational.]

Yopo< Ben: That's my perception of the trend. They play the "fear" card a lot these days. That's one of the reasons I cautioned animalspiritwalk about courtroom appearances. An ambitious prosecuting attorney might point out his martial arts background, and make him look like a scary guy prone to going out of control. Jury then considers its own personal fears. A good defense attorney would take heed of that. But a display of anger might tilt the table.

Sprinkles< Yopo: I agree.

Ben< Yopo: I agree with you. That is what the prosecuting attorney will try to do. And if successful, the aggressors win and the defender is penalized. Justice? Not hardly.

Yopo< Ben: Sad thing, when a defense attorney has to also be a bit of an acting coach. *sigh* Ah well, maybe the matter won't even go to trial. Sometimes happens, after folks cool down.

[Ben< Monday night, 24 January, in Stonehenge, I sent a private message asking animalspiritwalk if he had been to court, and if so, how it went. I have his permission to post his reply. It shows a definite plus for the criminal justice system, this time, and is an example of how cases like this should always be dealt with, in my opinion. And yes, I sent animalspiritwalk my personal "Well done!" for the way he handled himself in court.]

[animalspiritwalk< Hello *S* and greetings to you. Yes, I went to court. Judge dismissed all charges. He asked me a question and said my attorney couldn't speak for me on this. His question was "Did you utilize your martial arts training?" My response was "No, sir." He asked "Then can you explain the damage done to them?" I responded "Yes, sir. They got off easy. Had I been utilizing my martial arts training, they would have been hurt more severely, sir." My attorney almost soiled his pants when I responded with that. The judge chuckled, as well as the court room and the guys' attorneys. The judge looked at the three guys, then me, and had us stand before him at the bench. He said they could be playing football for the University of Minnesota, and I did this to them all at once. They should be embarrassed to even bring me to court. Then he dismissed all charges. *VVVVVVVVVVVBS*]

LEGS< A girl here, with her eight-month old baby in the house, shot a "high" illegal crawling into her window. She had already called the police because he was trying to get in her door ... seems he probably had her trailer mixed up with that of a nearby dealer who was later caught and prosecuted ... but meanwhile the girl actually did have a nervous breakdown over the guilt of killing someone.

Yopo< LEGS: What a world, where a girl with a baby had need of a gun ...

guitarist< LEGS: I can understand her *feeling* guilty about it, but of course she shouldn't. The guy definitely had bad intentions, no matter what anyone else says. First her door, then her window! The moxie on him!

Jello< Isn't it said, though, that violently taking someone's life is to be avoided if at all possible? I can see the nervous breakdown, the guilt. I just gotta say: the horrible, horrible choices we sometimes have to make because of the choices of others. Reminds me that I need to be that much more considerate in my own decisions ...

FlamingEagle< Yeah ... sometimes we don't realize just how many people are affected by our actions.

guitarist< Jello: As I understand it, the commandment we're referring to is properly translated, "You shall not *murder* (rather than *kill*). The differences are those of intent and the order of events.

Jello< guitarist: I was actually thinking of various NDE accounts and channeled messages from various people about the topic.

[The following was interwoven with the previous discussion. I assembled it here.]

Jello< Fear-hope ... Cowardice-courage ... What's the opposite of anger?

Sprinkles< Jello: I would think that happiness would be anger's opposite.

FlamingEagle< Jello: Answer: the opposite of anger is the lack thereof.

Jello< Hmm, happiness doesn't seem quite like anger's opposite, because sadness is also opposed to happiness (and if we go by diametric opposites, this stops working out).

Yopo< Anger's opposite? Hmm ...

Sprinkles< Jello: Yes, I see what you mean. How about composure for the opposite of anger? Being in control of one's emotions.

Ben< Jello: One who doesn't get angry is referred to as placid.

Jello< Ben: Although one who never gets angry may also be apathetic ... ?

Ben< Jello: Yes, one who doesn't get angry may be apathetic, or complacent.

Jello< I can't wrap my wee brain around "joy" "happiness" "anger" "sadness" "peace" ... they are not opposites necessarily, but they do have positive and negative spiritual shadings ... Hmmm, didn't even Jesus get angry?

FlamingEagle< Jello: Yes, he did. There was a time for action in the situation.

Ben< Jello: Yes, Jesus was angry on occasion. The lesson is in what he got angry about.

FlamingEagle< Ben: Christ got angry when the elders set up money-changing tables in the temple. He got angry and overturned the tables, and I believe chased them out of there.

Sprinkles< Ben: Jesus was angry on occasion, but I don't recall him physically inflicting harm on another. The right to express the anger is there, verbally but not physically -- at least that is my thoughts on that matter. *S*

Ben< Sprinkles: I have been very interested in seeing precisely where Jesus drew the line regarding violence. I have a pile of notes from studying the Gospels on that point. Probably should write them up.

Sprinkles< Ben: I would very much like to read them. I know I have to research it now -- my curiosity has gotten the best of me in that area. (missed a lot) and very interesting. *VBS*

Yopo< Maybe emotions ought not be thought of as each having its opposite? Maybe they are each their own thing, though a predominance of one might create a psychic environment non-conducive to the other. But I have heard of the berserker's joyful rage. Love tinged with sadness. Even joy tinged with sadness. I suppose we have all experienced those sorts of mixtures.

guitarist< Yopo: And when Jews celebrate Passover, at the part when we talk of the plagues, drops of wine are spilled to remind us not to gloat over the deaths of the first-born Egyptians, because G-d created and loved them too. Our elation over victory must be mixed with sadness. I think a mixture of emotions is a sign that we see things from more than one perspective.

LEGS< Interesting comment on the mixtures of emotions, Yopo. A friend of mine who wrote love poetry as a high school girl was always using the line "smiling sadly" -- a sort of oxymoron that would always crack us up and we would end up giggling when the context really called for sadness.

Yopo< LEGS: *hehehe* he chortled sadly. Perhaps it was sorrowful giggling?

Jello< "smiling sadly" is a very common theme, at least in Asia ... or to be precise, Japan. Wow, I am really not in a good form tonight. Perhaps I should stop posting.

FlamingEagle< LEGS: Could "smiling sadly" be a wistfulness of expression? Smiling when the underlying emotion is one of sadness? Just playing with the words here, enjoying the mental stimulation.

Yopo< FlamingEagle: I think you've hit the nail. Complexity of emotion is hard to convey with words. And for young ones, a mysterious experience in the first place.

LEGS< FlamingEagle, Yopo: Yes ... and we sometimes hear of a rueful smile ... begrudging smiles ... guilty smiles. Goodness, we could go on all night, as the old song about the alphabet says. I rather like the wistful smile ... and my new great grandson has a rather smug smile ... he knows he is the boss at three months of age. *G*

FlamingEagle< Yopo: And also a tough one to handle in the extreme (young ones handling emotions). I am still waiting for my daughter to face some of the emotions we experienced in December (horrifying even for an adult). In time she will deal with it all, and I will be here for her.

Yopo< FlamingEagle: Forgive me, if I should remember what it is you are speaking of. I may have forgotten, or never known ... or missed a post.

LEGS< Yopo: I think I need a post catching mitt myself. *smiling mischievously*

FlamingEagle< Yopo: Are you asking about the situation we faced?

Yopo< FlamingEagle: Yes.

guitarist< FlamingEagle: I'm sure Yopo is asking about your situation, and now that I have the opportunity, so am I.

Yopo< But please don't go into it unless you want to ...

guitarist< FlamingEagle: I'm with Yopo there, too. I don't know you well enough to have initiated the question, although I would empathize with the situation.

FlamingEagle< On December 16th I learned that three days earlier my dad (who was bipolar, possibly schizophrenic, and refused meds) murdered his ex-wife (my step-mom) and my half-brother in his home, ignited the place, then committed suicide. I had spoken with him on the phone about an hour before this all happened, but had no idea it was coming. My husband, daughter, and I went through the ashes of his home the next day after talking to the investigator.

Jello< FlamingEagle: I'm very sorry to hear that. :(

Sprinkles< FlamingEagle: So sorry for your loss. ((((hugs))))

Ben< FlamingEagle: Ouch! What you described isn't an easy road to walk. Strength and steadiness to you.

guitarist< Oy, (((FlamingEagle!))) what a way to lose your family! I'm so sorry! {{{BIG HUGS}}} and protecting light to surround you and your daughter.

FlamingEagle< Thank you, guitarist. In time she will deal with it all ... when she is ready.

Yopo< FlamingEagle: Oh, jeez ... I am truly sorry. Yes, your daughter must certainly have emotions and questions she has yet to deal with. As must you all. Blessings ...

FlamingEagle< This has been a time of growth. I found a favorite statue of his -- an eagle. The paint and porcelain had burned off the metal base. I will recover it with clay and paint it as a brown eagle with red and yellow flames on the wings -- an image from a wellness site. This is where my name comes from.

Yopo< FlamingEagle: I would imagine the fact that no one saw this tragedy coming must cause a young one feelings of uncertainty and insecurity that would be hard to recognize and deal with.

FlamingEagle< Yopo: Actually the hardest thing for me has been the realization of the TRUE separation from Dad. I am telepathic, and can 'connect' with people far away. I have always been in contact with dad (like I am with my daughter) but am facing true separation from him now.

Jello< Perhaps the separation is only temporary, as he receives help on the other side?

Yopo< FlamingEagle: Perhaps the separation isn't as complete as it sometimes seems. I like to think that loving thoughts can still find their way to the one no longer with us. That there can be healing, too.

FlamingEagle< Yopo: True. If nothing else, this past Christmas brought me and my siblings much closer together. One thing which was mentioned at his memorial is that there is something in each of us which can be exploited and perverted and used for evil, so none of us can point a finger at another person for their actions. In the same light, we can also be used to bless others. It is our choice.

Yopo< FlamingEagle: Very true. Such things once done cannot be undone. But we can try to learn from them, and to forgive wrong choices. Bad endings tend to stay with us for a long time. But they shouldn't take away from all that came before. A bad ending does not undo all the love and kindness shown in a person's life. But it can sometimes loom so large in the pain it causes that it blinds us to that for a while.

Sprinkles< When my Mom passed away (two years ago) I wasn't meant to be there with her. I was stuck in a state of unfamiliarity in the worst snow storm. I couldn't go forward and I couldn't go back. I had traveled to see her. She was in the hospital with a broken hip. She was doing better and healing nicely. I had to catch the train back and felt all would be well. The train derailed and I was put up in a hotel in this strange city. Stuck. For three days. The phone call came. I never got to say good-bye until she came to me in my dream and asked what was wrong, her eyes full with tears. She would do anything for us kids. Here she was, worried for me. I just needed her hug, and I received it. That is when my healing came about. There are many possibilities, and I believe our loved ones are always there.

LEGS< Sprinkles: What a wonderful thing to have for your memory. I think the ways in which we can remember our loved ones can be enhanced by such a visitation, but I also think that we should discipline our thoughts to think on the good things to remember, the loving times and the dear sweet silly times we have shared. If we had parents who were of the old school and did NOT show affection as such, then we should recognize the sacrifices they made without murmur, without a great fanfare about it. I know, during the depression, my parents had it hard to feed three little girls, but we never heard it thrown up to us.

Sprinkles< I did not have things thrown up at me. My mom was a mother of 12 and she was very loving and caring. She was amazing -- at least that is how I saw her. I raised 3 children, and that was an awful lot for me. How she managed to raise 12 is beyond me. She was of the Old School, but with an abundance of Love and time.

LEGS< Sprinkles: Dear heart, I didn't mean to imply that your mother did throw things up to you. I meant that you had a wonderful "additional" memory to recall ... and those who do not, should recall the memories that are worthwhile and pleasing. Please forgive me if I caused misunderstanding.

LEGS< Sprinkles: On my magazine site, there is a story by Mary Taylor called "I remember Mama" ... you might relate mightily to it. If you read it, let me know what you thought. It is true ... the lady lives here in my town.

LEGS< Oh my ... hope Sprinkles isn't perturbed at me ... good nite everyone ...

Sprinkles< LEGS: No misunderstanding. I know what you meant, my friend. *VBS* I wasn't being defensive, just wanted to express my thoughts. Till next time... *poof*

LEGS< Thank you, Sprinkles. See you next class, I hope ...

FlamingEagle< Sprinkles: I'm glad you got your chance to tell your mom good-bye the way you did. I honestly think I got the chance the day he died. Sure, I didn't know he was about to die, but I had had regular conversations with him, which is something my other siblings hadn't had. I'm right now living daily and getting the most I can from each moment I have with my daughter.

LEGS< Good for you, FlamingEagle, to nourish your relationship with your daughter. Oddly enough, my husband and I talked to daddy on the phone the night before he passed away, and like you said, I had no intimation of the future ... none.

Yopo< Ben: This is asked in all seriousness and respectfulness -- have you ever found humor in the words of Jesus, or in the bible? ... That maybe didn't come out as I meant it. I meant deliberate humor that was put there.

Ben< Yopo: Oh, yes, there is a lot of deliberate humor in the sayings of Jesus. Mostly plays on words, like when he said some people will "strain out a gnat and swallow a camel."

Yopo< Ben: *S* That IS funny!

Jello< Yopo: There was a humorous pun in the Gospels Ben once pointed me to. // Ben: What was the great line about being gullible?

Ben< Jello: I don't recall the specific pun you mentioned right now, but this beatitude is amusing: where we read in English "Blessed are the pure in heart for they shall see God" the Greek text actually reads "Blessed are the gullible for they will relish God." The translators have Pablum-ized a lot of things Jesus said (and a lot of things Paul said).

Jello< Ben: Yes, that was the one, in fact. I hadn't realized it was the "pure in heart" translation!

Yopo< Ben: *S* I can sorta understand why THAT might have caught the business end of an editor's pen ...

Ben< ALL: Well, 'tis past my bedtime. Good thoughtful discussion tonight. Peace and blessings to each of you. *poof*

22. Courage
Session 3
Sat 29 Jan 2000

Ben< ALL: Last time we looked at some mental images of courage and cowardice, and discussed which we instinctively or intuitively like best. I presented two stone-age scenarios to illustrate how people might bring forward lessons they learned in a previous life, and ended with Webster's definitions of courage and cowardice.

Ben< ALL: Tonight I plan to expand the envelope in a different direction. Ready?

Sprinkles< Ready :)

Ben< QUESTION 1: I have often heard it said: "You've got to give him credit for having the courage of his convictions." Do you agree? If so, please give an example of someone to whom do you think that statement applies, and why. YOUR TURN

Sprinkles< Yes, I agree. For someone to take on something that others may think of as a tremendous burden, whether it be given to them or an unexpected adjustment to one's life. No matter what may come about, the individual continues to carry through with determination of making it through life to the best of his/her abilities.

guitarist< I think that if the convictions are true, then the courage will be also. Perhaps I should express this on a continuum: the more true the convictions, the more courageous the action will be to defend them. This is part of moral integrity. Recent example: Bruce A. Jacobs, author of very recently published "Race Manners: Navigating the Minefield between Black and White Americans." This author speaks reasonably to both sides. I just bought and am still reading it.

Yopo< Guess it shows courage to take the unpopular side of most any social issue. One who comes to mind is John Quincy Adams, as portrayed in the film "Amistad". (Watched that the other day.) And the justices of the Supreme Court who saw the truth of his words. Martin Luther King, who spoke his truth when he knew he would die because of it. M. Gandhi. Many come to mind ...

FRAML< Ben: It can be true if you agree with what the person is saying, but are hesitant to say it yourself. Alan Keyes is a person who speaks out on what he believes. & PrairWarur here in SWC.

Lo< It does take courage to stand up for what you believe, particularly when others you respect ridicule you, making light and fun of you. Martin Luther King appeared to have such courage.

Ben< I think that statement applies to people like Edward Jenner and Major Walter Reed. Jenner injected himself with smallpox to test his theory of immunization. Reed let himself to be bitten by mosquitoes to test his theory that they carry yellow fever.

greyman< Ben: It is usually said in a situation involving questionable judgment from the subject of credit. *G*

guitarist< greyman: In what sense questionable judgment?

Ben< greyman: Hmm ... yes, it is often a left-handed compliment by someone who doesn't agree with the convictions expressed.

guitarist< Ben, greyman: It seems that we don't see too many standing for much of anything. BTW, I want to express my congratulations to animalspiritwalk, whenever he should walk in here, for his victory in court earlier this week.

Ben< guitarist: Yes, I was most pleased to see how animalspiritwalk handled himself in court.

greyman< guitarist: "You've got to give him credit for having the courage of his convictions" -- said about a kid took a dare and stuck his tongue on the sub-zero flag pole and it got stuck. Other examples should come to mind involving any one you may know who takes a conviction to extravagant extremes.

Sprinkles< Oh, I wasn't looking at the extreme acts of convictions ... interesting ... hmmm.

guitarist< Hmmm. I wouldn't have thought of the kid who got his tongue stuck on a flagpole as having the courage of his convictions. Supporting unpopular but appropriate and necessary causes would be an example for me ... One of the finer points of communication that I still must learn, I guess.

FRAML< guitarist: I would say that the boy was fool-hardy for his action. Or that he unwisely accepted a dare.

Ben< QUESTION 2: Do you think the statement "You've got to give him credit for having the courage of his convictions" is necessarily a compliment? If so, why? If not, why not? YOUR TURN

Sprinkles< Yes and no, as a compliment, depending on the knowledge I have of the conviction one has and the situation. It compliments the determination of the individual in stating a fact, taking a firm stand, not backing down. (All depending on what my knowledge is of the situation.)

FRAML< Ben: I have to agree with greyman's comment that it is most often given as a criticism rather than a true compliment. It is a way of denigrating a person and their beliefs.

Ben< greyman: Hah! You sure answered my second question with that bit about the kid who got his tongue stuck on the flag pole.

Yopo< Ben: *S* Your comment to greyman about left-handed complements sorta foreshadowed what I'd say about that too. Seems a recognition of what is thought of as an admirable quality of character -- the courage part -- while still leaving room to take issue with what the person stands for. I suppose you could compliment someone that way and STILL think them to be a complete idiot. *LOL*

LEGS< Courage of HIS convictions seems to indicate to my mind that few people hold with his convictions, whatever they are, but that he has demonstrated a willingness and determination to abide with his own.

Lo< Ben: I have always thought it was a compliment. It probably still is, even if you do not agree with the conviction yourself. Anyone that doesn't stand up for what they say is their conviction generally loses face for appearing wish-washy.

Ben< Lo: Yes, good point -- "wishy-washy" isn't a compliment.

guitarist< I don't hear this often, so I don't know. Greyman and Ben were talking about a "left-handed" compliment. I would say that, if it is, the person doesn't understand why the decision was made. Next time I hear that statement, I'll ask, "What do you mean by that?"

Jan43< I think that "courage" is not what is apparent to the central figure. To them it is a matter of conviction. It is amazing how many people seen as "strong" would never apply that term to themselves. To follow convictions is to make decisions from a value base that is self-determined. If one doesn't agree, and would have acted differently in a situation, then the value bases differ. Admiration is a recognition of the higher state of conviction in the hero?

Ben< I think that statement isn't necessarily a compliment, because it applies equally to Adolph Hitler and Jesus Christ, Genghis Kahn and Mahatma Gandhi. In my opinion, what a person's convictions are is of primary importance. How strongly one holds his or her convictions is of secondary importance.

Ben< guitarist: The opinion I expressed in my last post is one of the tools I use for discernment.

guitarist< Ben: Thanks for clarifying, using Adolph Hitler and Genghis Khan as part of the example. I never really understood statements like that.

FRAML< Ben: And then there are politicians who have no convictions to stand by; and who should be convicted to keep us safe from their lack of convictions. *G*

Yopo< FRAML: I will refrain from asking you for an example of such a person. *S*

guitarist< Ben: I never gave Hitler credit for conviction, so I guess I never thought a statement like that could be used of him, or that courage could be attributed to him. What do I know?

[Ben< guitarist: I have heard precisely that statement said of Hitler -- and other fanatics -- although, like you, I do not agree with it in those cases.]

FRAML< guitarist: Hitler had several convictions: one for leading a revolt against the government of Bavaria in 1923, another posthumous at the Nuremberg War Crimes Trials.

guitarist< FRAML: I don't think that's what Ben is referring to. Hitler had convictions that Jews, homosexuals and the mentally ill should not live, and that others he considered subhuman should be used as long as they could work, and then be left to die. Does this invite a statement like "You have to give him credit for the courage of his convictions"? I think not, my friend.

FRAML< guitarist: You missed my pun on Hitler's convictions. I was not referring to his beliefs.

guitarist< FRAML: I know you weren't talking about Hitler's beliefs, but the decisions about him in court. Now that we've clarified what we mean before the world, let's move on ... *g*

Lo< Ben: I do not see the connection between having courage to stand up for a conviction and what those convictions may be. I can grant Hitler, etc., as having courage to stand for whatever they believe without necessarily honoring them for that conviction. Do you mean to imply that for us to think some one has courage, we must honor and respect them and/or their ideas?

Ben< Lo: A lot of people do suggest or imply that we should honor a person for his or her courage regardless of what he or she believes or does. But I don't agree with them.

Lo< Ben: I agree with you there; but that is not the issue. Granting credit for someone standing for their conviction is NOT necessarily honoring them for that, as I see it.

LEGS< Lo: I think the word "credit" tends to mean adding to or extending grace, so one could interpret granting credit for someone standing for their conviction as "approval" of that person and the conviction.

Lo< LEGS: I guess I take words more literally. In giving someone CREDIT for STANDING UP for what they say they believe, I tend to think I am merely saying I respect them for not having a lack of courage to back up what they're saying, which would just leave their statement a nonsensical muddle.

guitarist< Ben and Lo: I guess this is the downside of courage ... its misuse even, when it is applied to false or bad beliefs.

FRAML< Aren't convictions a set of beliefs or moral values by which one lives?

Jan43< FRAML: I think that convictions are a subgroup of the general category of values. They are the values that we have made firm, though changeable, decisions about. Conviction as a word speaks about a depth of belief.

Ben< SCENARIO 1: Suppose you are sitting in a Chicago bus station in December 1941. Your country is at war. You have your draft notice. You are waiting for the bus to take you to report for duty with the U. S. Army. You hear the President speaking on the radio. He says "The only thing we have to fear is fear itself." How do you feel about that? Are you encouraged? What do you say to yourself?" YOUR TURN

greyman< Ben: Bacon.

Ben< greyman: Bacon? Please translate.

greyman< Ben: I would have said "buts" but that expression is taken. I do not appreciate much of Roosevelt, and his statement "The only thing we have to fear is fear itself!" seems trite to me. I would be blown into bacon for other ideals.

FRAML< Ben: That particular quote has never made any sense to me. Other than possibly being a variant of "Don't take counsel of your fears."

LEGS< Refresh is so slow, I'm out of context with the questions. December 1941: My thought would be: "How does he know?"

Jan43< I might be led, in your example, Ben, to be swayed by the conviction espoused in a mass media format, but at some point of the "journey" I may feel the need to make a decision based on convictions that are being confronted by some pretty gut-churning realities. And then I may make another decision; e.g., to desert, to endure, to bide, etc.

[Ben< Jan43: Good point about being temporarily swayed by the president's words and then perhaps making a different decision when confronted with realities.]

Yopo< I might have looked out the bus window at the falling snow, and wondered if those words applied to me. It isn't fear that'll kill you, most of the time ...

guitarist< I think that it must be pretty bad wherever I'm going. I think fear is a tool for self-preservation when used properly. I am not encouraged at all by the President's statement, but I think that if I keep my head, learn my new territory (if I have the chance) and listen to my intuition as I learn more, I have a better chance to survive and bring others with me ... and I have to pray a lot, too!

Sprinkles< I feel it takes me to think within: If this is the path I must walk, to walk it and to put my fears in God's hands, as a guidance through whatever may come about on this path before me. To do what I must, and to trust whatever the outcome may be. To trust in the power that created me. Comfort.

Ben< I would feel amused: "Hah! That's easy for him to say. He isn't going where I'm going." And I might be reminded of the saying: "It is easy to be brave from a safe distance." (Aesop)

guitarist< Ben: Exactly. If I could find someone with that perspective, I probably would adopt it. Especially with a commander-in-chief who never fought.

LEGS< I do know that many were caught up in the fervor of patriotism and the conviction that God was on OUR side. I often heard the rally slogan, "If God be with us, who can be against us?"

Yopo< Probably FDR was addressing what he perceived as the prevailing national spirit of the moment. In that sense, his words MADE sense. As an acknowledgment that he understood what the people were feeling.

Ben< SCENARIO 2: Now suppose you're a soldier in a landing craft headed for Omaha Beach on D-Day. Your Lieutenant yells: "Remember what the President said! The only thing we have to fear is fear itself!" How do you feel about that? What (if anything) do you say to the Lieutenant? YOUR TURN

Yopo< *LOL* In THAT context, I would probably conclude that THIS guy is either a complete moron, or thinks WE are.

greyman< I would have said "Nuts" ...

guitarist< "With permission to speak frankly, sir ... SHUT UP!"

Yopo< ... unless he was a comedian. This might have been an attempt at comic relief.

guitarist< Yopo: You might be right there. Comic relief would have been most welcome at that point.

Sprinkles< Yopo: I agree.

Ben< I'd yell back at the Lieutenant: "Too late! I already soiled my underwear!"

FRAML< "That dumb sh** 2nd looey! I'm scared sh**less, but this is necessary to beat the Nazis. I don't want to do it, but I have to do it." Also, I remember the thought I had while standing at the water's edge at low tide in June 86 looking toward the cliffs on which the American Cemetery now stands at Normandy. I was thinking "My G-d, how did those guys have the guts to cross that beach?"

Yopo< FRAML: The currents of history bring men to a beach. Fear is part of the environment. One is left with faith, conviction, and no way to survive but move forward. Thus are the cemeteries of fallen warriors filled ... *sigh*

guitarist< FRAML: Understanding what we're fighting for is important; knowing that we're fighting a most dangerous foe would be helpful to me in bucking up for what is to come.

LEGS< My late husband once commented on his bemused thoughts while getting to the beach ... Omaha Beach on D-Day ... that he had not realized that the water in that part of the world was red ... and it was a few days later before the reason popped into his mind when he saw a puddle of blood and water in a bomb crater.

Sprinkles< I would be afraid, and would most likely be trying to convince myself not to be afraid, with heart pounding, and praying for guidance and protection because this just well may be my future as well as others at stake. I would say to the Lieutenant, "Sir, pray for us all as I am doing right this minute."

LEGS< Sorry ... the point I meant to make is: When historic time is what you are living, being part of such a momentous event, your thoughts may be totally irrelevant ... not courageous ... not cowardly ... but deliberately keeping oneself from dramatizing one's duty.

Ben< COMMENT: In situations like that, if you are not in denial (deluding yourself), you are afraid. But if you let your fear paralyze you, you aren't likely to make it to the beach. Therefore, you need to do something to strengthen your courage. But a show of bravado may or may not help. Humor -- and especially "GI humor" -- may have a better effect.

LEGS< I feel that some moved forward on anger and righteous indignation as well.

Ben< LEGS: Anger can stimulate or simulate courage, but it tends to burn up internal resources very quickly. Righteous indignation is usually less powerful but longer-lasting.

Sprinkles< LEGS: I can see that, too. Perhaps that is the means by which they might have had strength available to them -- those emotions having to be their strength to move forward.

Ben< COMMENT: According to Webster's Dictionary, bravado is pretended courage or defiant confidence where there is really little or none. Thus, there is a difference between real courage and apparent courage. As I see it, this difference is between inner reality and outward appearance.

Yopo< Ben: Maybe sometimes a bit of bravado doesn't hurt? A "fake it 'til you make it" sorta approach. Bravado is only distasteful to me the day before and the day after the battle. *S*

Ben< Yopo: Yes. As I said, bravado may or may not work. And as you said, it has an unpleasant after-taste.

dead< I find bravery happens for good reasons, but when a similar "I don't care" type bravery happens, less rewarding and less successful than the true bravery. Good reasons = true bravery ... bad reasons = I don't care, gung-ho attitude.

[Ben< The following post by a visitor is typical of many that I see in chatrooms and receive in emails.]

catmoon< Merry meet all. I have a question for anyone here. I've recently found out that I can channel, and the last time I did it, it left me drained with a killer headache. I'm looking for any information on how to control this, how to shield, better control the number of voices, and better identify who is talking. Any advice is good.

dead< catmoon: Good question. To find or get rid of any beings, don't depend on one thing found through this, but thing found through love-definitive structures. I offer that.

Ben< ALL: Okay, the hour is over. I do have another exercise if you wish to stay longer. What is your pleasure?

dead< Thanks, Ben, for your good efforts.

guitarist< Stay, Ben. What do you want to ask?

Sprinkles< Ben: Please go on, I enjoy the food for thought. :)

Ben< Okay ... talequah ... I'll post the exercise.

[guitarist, via private message: What is talequah?]

Ben< guitarist: Talequah is Cherokee for "two is enough" *smile* I was thinking that two responses are enough to make it worthwhile to post the exercise.

LEGS< Ben: Please continue, but please don't leave tonite until you tell us about your experiences with the weather there. Is it complicating things for you?

Ben< LEGS: I was able to get my driveway clear from the last storm because a dear friend brought over his snow-blower. Otherwise I would still be frozen in. Next storm is due tonight or tomorrow morning.

LEGS< Ben: Glad you had the snow-blower ... because I just read a report that says even very young people are dying trying to shovel the snow. It is a matter of escalating the heart action due to the extreme weather making even walking more of an exertion than in moderate temperature.

Ben< ALL: If you are willing to do so, please describe an episode in your life where you were afraid, but managed to do what you chose to do. What did you think or say or do, to muster up your courage or reduce your fear? YOUR TURN

LadyV< The word is "chose" ... not immediate handling of crisis that would put the fear of God into you? Is that what you are saying Ben?

[Ben< LadyV: It can be either an immediate crisis or a prolonged situation.]

guitarist< The day my little brother was killed by a car in front of me, I was mighty, mighty scared. Besides having nearly been hit myself, I thought about my mother. She would kill me! (And, as it turned out, there were times when I wished she had.) I thought: I have to get help! I made a decision then and there: that I would dedicate the rest of my life to him. And then I yelled for help with all my strength. I just had to. I would have never been able to live with myself otherwise. As it was, the guilt I felt at having contributed by being in that place at that time was more than enough to overcome.

Ben< guitarist: Thank you. You didn't let it paralyze you.

guitarist< At the time, my mother wondered at how I could keep my composure to act as I did. It was only later (probably a week or two at most) that she began to act horribly toward me, as though it was my fault. This continued for three years.

greyman< guitarist: Such sorrow, such loss. My aunt was killed by a drunk driving a car with a baby in his front seat. My aunt is dead, his baby is dead, and he got off on a technicality.

guitarist< ((((GREYMAN)))) The person who hit my brother ran, and I didn't get a license number. So, s/he basically got away with it, by being a coward. I hope s/he's on the Internet now and lurking: this may be his/her opportunity to repent.

LadyV< guitarist: Projection is often very painful. I hope you and your Mother worked it out. How little you were ...

guitarist< LadyV: Mom knows now that I tried to save him. I was sixteen, my brother, seven and a half.

LadyV< guitarist: Glad it has eased for all of your family.

Lo< guitarist: I do not understand just why you felt you were responsible for what was obviously an accident. Your mother probably was just reacting to her own grief and sense of loss, and rationalized by trying to find someone to blame and vent her emotions on, and you were simply convenient. It is a shame she did not nurture you more with your sense of loss and shock. If one of my daughters had a similar experience, I guess I would wish that she had been more responsible in preventing the tragedy, while knowing deep down that she really would have preferred that it hadn't happened. At such a young age, youngs