Ben< ALL: I said I would hold my next seminar after the 4th of July. For the last week, I have been swamped, so I'm not ready to start an entire seminar. Instead, I'll ask one question, let you develop it's implications, and then ask one more question.

Ben< QUESTION 1: It has been said that people will treat you as you treat them. Is this true in your experience? Please illustrate your reply with one or more examples. YOUR TURN

guitarist< I have to think on this. I don't think it's always true. I can illustrate with examples, if you like.

Ben< guitarist: Sometimes examples help develop the implications of the principles they illustrate.

guitarist< When I was about 10 years old, a new girl came to my school. I befriended her, and helped her a couple of times when she fainted. (She was prone to fainting spells.) Then she turned on me and sided with other girls. (I was the lowest on the totem pole.) She apologized for her behavior only days before I moved away.

DestinyB< It depends on the situation and the people you are interacting with. Sometimes, yes, people treat you the same way you treat them, sometimes not.

RiverBrats [K'AM<] Ben: In my experience, people tend to treat you as you first treat them, or as you respond to them. [Trinkat<] In my experience, regardless of how women treat the men in my profession, the men tend to treat the women badly. [LEGS<] In my experience, yes, they do respond nicely. For instance, "our" waitress was so rushed and so hurried and so nervous that when she came back to our table, I complimented her on her hairdo and told her that she had a very nice smile and that she should use it more often, smiling as I said it. She was taken aback ... and she returned my smile, and as she continued to wait on other tables, her improved attitude and smile made the entire place calm down and the people to be more relaxed and congenial.

LadyV< Well, if you smile they generally smile back ...

RiverBrats [Trinkat & LEGS<] It seems that it works better in person. The smile in person is more definite than on line. People have different colorations for words. *S*

DestinyB< It's hard to get across true feelings on the net sometimes. I've been on the misunderstood end of that before.

Ben< I'm thinking of a person I treated with respect, and felt I had earned his respect. I was surprised and hurt when he suddenly dis'ed me for about an hour.

guitarist< Ouch! Not nice, Ben; I empathize with your hurt and surprise.

Ben< guitarist: After I thought about it for awhile, I realized that I was surprised because I had *assumed* he respected me, and I was hurt because I *wanted* him to respect me.

RiverBrats [K'AM<] Ben: It always is a surprise when we have assumed something that later turns out differently. And people are prone to be unpredictable. *S*

LadyV< Ben: Maybe you reminded him of someone that looked a bit like you, and he was renewing a bit of anger at the other person and you were the one that got it instead. It is "projection" I think ... not sure ... sometimes we trigger in others a memory by our words or our expressions or just some little thing that sets people off. He perhaps did not know himself that it was unpleasant for you.

DestinyB< There have been times when I've been in a foul mood and lashed out at loved ones for no apparent reason ... and got more of the same back when they reacted. Sometimes it's best to stay away from others when feeling bad.

guitarist< I tend to feel that people's responses are rather unpredictable; I have to overcome a certain amount of insecurity with every new encounter. I end up observing people first before making contact for that reason.

greyman< Ben: Was that "dis" a recent event?

Ben< greyman: That one wasn't, but yes, there was a similar event recently.

DestinyB< Ben: Maybe it had nothing to do with you. Maybe it was something going on in his life at the moment that caused him to act that way.

greyman< Ben: The source of your pain may very well be the expectation that the person would not dis-respect you. The resolution is not as simple as a re-evaluation of your new expectation for that person. Over a period of time you have collected conscious and/or unconscious "identifiers" of expectation as to personal conduct. Once all conscious and/or unconscious links to expectation are resolved, a healing process may begin. Apparently you will expect that this person will dis-respect you in the future unless a resolution can be mediated. I am sorry for your conflict.

Ben< greyman: I agree with your analysis of the source of my pain in that case. My response to that experience was fairly simple. I recalibrated my expectations of that person as I would my recalibrate my expectations of other sapient beings: "This dog sometimes bites."

RiverBrats [Trinkat<] It is kinda like having the family dog bite you, Ben.

DestinyB< Trinkat: LOL ... yep, that happens even when the dog loves you!

greyman< Ben: A not too common situation among close friends. Sometimes all that remains is: "Yes the dog bites, but I can remember when it was a puppy."

RiverBrats [Trinkat<] Ben: When the puppy starts biting, you really do have to determine whether it's worth it. I would probably try to find the dog a new home. Honestly, I don't know that I could continue a friendship with a person who spent a long period of time dis'ing me ... for whatever reason ... don't care how bad their day has been, don't care if someone ran over their dog, don't care if the wife burned breakfast ... if they bite, they need a home on the farm with the rest of the animals. After all, do unto others ...

RiverBrats [LEGS<] Actually, Ben, continuing the friendship is a misnomer, because it was probably only an acquaintanceship in reality. You should expect and receive better than that from true friends.

DestinyB< My cat bites me, but no one else. She only bites me when she gets mad at me ... like when I've been away on a trip. I've figured out that she trusts me enough to know that it's safe for her to express her true feelings to me. Primitive, but straightforward.

RiverBrats [LEGS<] DestinyB: Please be sure the cat has had her shots (having taken the shots, I assure you it is no fun).

Ben< ALL: Good responses. More? Or expansions of what has been said (or implied by these illustrations)?

DestinyB< I have a friend in Australia. He had some American friends who cheated him and stole from him. He's facing a jail term and is down on Americans now ... even the ones who have only been kind to him. Every time we chat, he makes ugly remarks about Americans. I don't take it personally, but it wears thin after awhile.

guitarist< I have developed a philosophy that, because we have *free will*, people will respond to me as they will, and if I don't like their response, I don't have to be with those who respond badly to me. On the other hand, I have my off days too. :) The other philosophy I've developed is that I must go into any situation assuming the best, no matter how anyone else thinks of it. At least this will increase my chances of getting good responses.

DestinyB< guitarist: I agree with that way of thinking. Sometimes being positive can turn around the negative.

LadyV< I have observed people sometimes become cross with those that are equal peers. My observation is that when the cook growls at the cook, it is expected to be understood. I had to stop and figure that out. To me, it was hot in the kitchen and only the other cook would understand the loud or subtle complaints.

Ben< Now I'm thinking of abused children who do everything they can to be good to their parents, and good parents who have tyrannical, bratty children through no apparent fault of their own. Do these thoughts ring any bells?

DestinyB< Abusive parents often don't realize what they're doing to their kids. It's the way they were raised or they don't know any better. The bratty kids I know are that way because of a lack of discipline from their parents.

guitarist< I was a good child with a very weird set of parents. Or so I have come to understand in recent years. :)

RiverBrats [K'AM<] Ben: This is such a touchy subject ... the papers are full of it ... for the first part of your question. As to the 2nd ... if we do the best we can while we can, and give them love and attention and the necessities of life, then it's their choice as they grow to continue to be bratty and tyrannical or to become decent humans ... and to be the type of person that people want to be around them.

Sprinkles< Ben: I don't think everyone treats everyone the way they would like to be treated. There are some that do. It depends on the individual, the situation, and the state of mind one encounters.

guitarist< My best friend also has children who take advantage of her and their father. Recently, one of them was found to be using drugs. My friend had a really tough time with her daughter, and still can't trust her, even though the daughter has a fairly good job now.

RiverBrats [LEGS<] No matter how much you love somebody, you cannot live their life for them.

LadyV< LEGS: Very wise comment ...

guitarist< Yes, LEGS, I agree with you. My stepson, for a long time, thought we were trying to live his life for him. However, we felt he was "at risk" for a while, and there was a lot of turbulence during his adolescence. Now, he's *much* better. :)

Ben< COMMENT: These examples from experience point toward the concept (principle) of free will. They can be seen as some of the inherent implications of that principle.

Ben< QUESTION 2: If the fact that you practice any version of the Golden Rule (harm none, do as you would be done by, etc.) doesn't ensure that anyone else will, why should you (or anyone) practice that version of the Golden Rule? YOUR TURN

RiverBrats [Trinkat<] Ben: It does not matter to me how other people respond to my behavior -- what is important to me is that I try to be the very best person I can be each and every day and that I make no overt effort to harm any one. If someone then has a problem with my behavior, I feel it is a problem on their part, not mine.

LadyV< To me, you do it for yourself. If you want peace, seek peace. And if peace is not there, walk away or turn the other cheek or whatever, but do it for yourself. Of course, I am saying that when I am crawling for the counter at a lab tech that is hurting me. (laughing) Fair is fair in this world ... he could be having a bad day as well.

RiverBrats [Trinkat<] I get more flack from people because I fail to be as intensely interested in, or against or for something, as they are. Again, not my problem. [K'AM<] To thine own self be true. Be as you would want others to be whether they are or not. And following the golden rule is a good rule to follow -- to be the best that you can be. [LEGS<] I was brought up to live by the Golden Rule whether anyone else did or not, and it is automatic for me to do so to the best of my ability.

guitarist< I think I hinted at the reason earlier: because it will elicit the greatest number of like responses. I find it particularly useful when I have a problem and I need others to help me find a solution. (At the beginning of June I was in a "Board of Directors" meeting instead of my boss, and the lunch was not what was on the list. People thought I had yelled at the hotel personnel -- I think that's what they had expected me to do -- but I was really nice with the concierge. She helped me get a 10% reduction on the whole bill.) But the real reason is because I prefer to be that way: less stress, more pleasantness. On the other hand, I tend to pass whatever stress I have onto others. I'm working on that.

RiverBrats [Trinkat<] ((((guitarist)))) Not only does Trinkat try to do the less stress, more pleasantness thing, I kind of feel like it is my job to do so. [K'AM<] My ex-husband once told me if you don't want to be disappointed in how other people are, don't expect them to be anything other than stinkers -- then if they are better than you expect them to be, you can be pleasantly surprised. LOL He was a true pessimist. Editorial comment by LEGS: Could be why he's an ex... LOL

DestinyB< If people follow the Golden Rule ... do unto others as you would have them do unto you ... people are civilized. The Bible is really a handbook for living your life well. The 10 commandments make good common sense for a happy life.

guitarist< Amen, DestinyB!

Sprinkles< I think it is practiced more by those who have experienced the encounters of having made the choice to use the free will. Some learn and accept the responsibilities for the outcomes of those choices. Some people never learn. That is not reason enough to stop taking the responsibility for our choices and decisions.

LadyV< I was thinking that children dream of perfection, and when they do not have perfection, they try to "make it so". Those children that have really neat families sometimes take it for granted. That is only an observation of families that I have seen.

guitarist< I often think that the families that have good values but lots of tension have nearly as bad an effect on their children as the truly dysfunctional families. Those "really neat families" that LadyV mentioned are few and far between in my experience.

DestinyB< I think "perfection" in family life is a figment of our imaginations. Can't say I know any who weren't at least a little dysfunctional

RiverBrats< K'AM says that she always told her children that through their own actions they either reaped the rewards or suffered the consequences, it is your own choice. LEGS says: Even if no one else in the world knows whether you are doing right or wrong, you know -- for instance, if you are way out in the country driving along and you come to a stop sign and there is no one in any direction as far as the eye can see, do you stop? I do. Trinkat says: Baloney.

guitarist< I gotta love you RiverBrats. You seem to be a great example of a loving family that lets each member have her (in this case) own voice -- as I note your last comments.

RiverBrats [Trinkat<] guitarist: That's only coz their youngest sister is not here -- otherwise, they don't let me talk. Seriously, we may not always agree with each other, and we are probably one of the most co-dependent families you ever want to meet, but woe betide the non-family member who makes the mistake of saying so.

RiverBrats [K'AM & LEGS<] (((((guitarist))))) Thank you ...

DestinyB< I'm with LEGS ... on being honest with oneself. I see life as a series of tests ... some of them, only you know how you scored, on others, lots of people know. These are good secrets to have. Everyone needs to have some things they keep to themselves (makes them more mysterious).

dreamseer< DestinyB: I definitely agree with you about keeping some things to ourselves, makes ya more interesting and drives people crazy trying to figure you out. hee hee

DestinyB< dreamseer: I never tell anyone everything I know! :-D

LadyBleu< Greetings. I will sit back and listen if you don't mind a looksee'er. *S*

Ben< LadyV: Re: "Fair is fair in this world" -- I'm reminded of a time several years ago when we were visiting Disney World. I had to go to the bathroom. When I came back, there were many people in the line behind my family. My wife waved to me and I waved back. Someone said "Go on up there with your family." I said "No, all these people are waiting. It wouldn't be fair to cut in line ahead of them." He looked surprised and asked "Where are you going to find anything fair in this world?" I looked down and thought about it, then said nothing and pointed to my heart. When I looked up, everyone in my circle of vision suddenly looked away from me and would not look me in the eye again. I wondered why they did that. I still do.

LadyV< Ben: Because you stood up for what you believed, and they knew that they had lost something ... it was grief and a bit of discomfort maybe ...

guitarist< Ben: May I venture a guess? Perhaps in your situation they would have taken the offer to cut in ahead, and they knew it, and knew it to be wrong. Nevertheless they didn't want to face it, so they turned away from you so as not to have to look at the reproach you represented to them at that moment. Does this make sense?

RiverBrats< Ben: LEGS thinks that you unwittingly put a guilt trip on them for not being as fair in their own hearts.

DestinyB< Ben: What an odd reaction to your honest words ... maybe because they just didn't want you cutting in line! *smile*

Sprinkles< Ben: Good for you. I like that. It does seem at times as if the speaking and feeling from one's own heart is a Taboo. Or you are weird, or from another world, because it seems there is less and less that society actually wants to share in the heart felt things. They are it seems at times so wrapped up in the day to day things that the feelings are not interplaying with them; it is just another everyday grind. (IMHO) *S*

Ben< ALL: Thanks for your responses to my illustration from Disney World. I guess maybe they did feel guilty or embarrassed or something like that. [Although in retrospect, it seems to me that their expressions were resentful, angry, as they turned their faces away from me.]

guitarist< Ben: I had a somewhat similar experience yesterday where I regularly buy my lunch. An older lady had left her place in line to get one more item, and she came back. She said something, and I asked her, "Were you here before me?" She said, "Yes, but I left to get something." I thought about it for about 10 seconds and then said, "Go ahead." Then she said, "No, it's all right, but thank you for your consideration." I had to think about it because I had to consider what others would say to me in that situation versus what I would like them to say. I guess it amounts to creating a better reality by deciding to do "the right thing" or "the nice thing" rather than accepting the one that exists.

Ben< guitarist: In your example about the lady at the lunch counter, it seems to me that both of you were being courteous and gracious. As someone said, simple courtesy is the lubrication that allows people to live together without grinding each other.

guitarist< So, Ben, we're like car gears that need lubrication, eh? (I'm thinking of the transmission; tell me if I'm wrong. My husband the engineer is asleep, so he can't help me.)

Ben< guitarist: Yes, and I'm sure your engineer husband will agree: any transmission without lubrication is like (and sounds like) any group of two or more people without courtesy.

DestinyB< guitarist: Have you heard the expression: Politeness is the grease for the gears of civilized society?

greyman< DestinyB: I've always thought it was graft: "Grease my palm, baby!" *G*

Ben< COMMENT: It seems to me that there are two reasons for practicing (and advocating) the Golden Rule: (1) it is *statistically* more likely that people will react to you as you act toward them; and (2) if you believe that is the kind of person you admire and want to be, then acting in accordance with your belief is a source of honest (earned) self-respect.

Ben< /topic Open discussion

guitarist< Yes, Ben, if you can practice the Golden Rule consistently. That seems to be a problem in our stress-crazed world. (Road rage is the example that came to my mind.)

LadyV< Ben: Then, to be true to oneself is good practice? I am thinking out loud here.

[Ben< LadyV: Yes, I think that being true to oneself is better than building a guilty conscience by not being true to oneself.]

LadyBleu< I am aware and try to remember to live by the golden rule. I knew it in my heart very young. No examples as far as my shy youthful vision would let me see. Yes! What goes around comes around ... eventually!

Sprinkles< Earning self-respect, having self-respect, and knowing everyone is just as much worthy of possessing it. Makes it worthy of giving it (respect) to others. It is a reward unto itself.

dreamseer< Sprinkles: Very well put, couldn't agree with ya more!

LadyBleu< It brings to mind how centered and kind my daughter is. She attracts wonderful things and people into her life. Constantly reminds me to "Look at it for what it is, mom!" Because, on the other hand, I can express myself very emotionally at times and it seems I like a good argument occasionally. *G * Could this be something (karma) unfinished business to be rectified and completed from a past life? Could it be that my daughter came in (assignment? LOL) to show me the kinder side of my nature? I was raised with 7 siblings/mother/father. She had only me to blame it all on. Her daddy died when she was two. I did not remarry. She is 35 and takes responsibility for her actions. Seems to move well with the ups and downs. I sometimes react and see my over-sensitiveness and unkindness too late. Only in the last 20 some years have I mellowed and am kinder in my responses to being dis'd or misunderstood. Takes a while and I'm blessed to have a wonderful example so close to me! By her very behavior to loss or gain, pain or pleasure, she has been a wonderful example and inspiration for me to become a kinder person. Her presence helps me to catch my shadow side on the instant, and with time it has helped me become more aware of my actions/motives to the hidden agendas in human contact with others.

DestinyB< LadyBleu: Nice example!

LadyV< LadyBleu: What a lovely tribute to your daughter. I imagine, to have raised a child that is welcomed wherever she goes ... her Mother had much to do with it.

RiverBrats< LadyBleu: We agree with LadyV's assessment ... *s*

guitarist< LadyBleu: I wish you and your daughter greatest blessings. :)

dreamseer< LadyBleu: I understand exactly what you're talking about. I received legal guardianship of my learning disabled nephew 3 years ago. He loves people. His kind, loving and innocent ways have taught me so much about interacting with others. *S*

guitarist< dreamseer: I am glad you see your nephew in that light, and can learn from him. Many do not take certain disabled children seriously, sad to say. You are to be commended. Blessings to you both.

dreamseer< guitarist: Thank you kindly for your blessings! *S* I know what you mean. I often see people who avoid or ignore my nephew because of his disabilities. It is sad because he has so much love to give.

guitarist< All of a sudden, a lot of people showed up. Welcome, everyone!

LadyV< Hello to all of you... I was late in getting here tonight.

Yopo< LadyV: *S* Me too. Got tied up on the phone. Also, didn't realize there was gonna be a seminar tonight. Ben's PR man is out of town... G*

LadyV< Yopo: And I miss him already ... he blows the trumpet. (teasing) You are right, he is a good PR man.

laquana< Hello, All.

dreamseer< laquana: Greetings and welcome. *S*

cloe< So, what's the discussion????

greyman< Beware the fury of a patient man. --John Dryden

Yopo< greyman: Interesting quote. I guess there are various behaviors that create an impression of patience. There are people truly slow to anger, and there are people who APPEAR slow to anger, but are really only holding their true emotions inside until they can no longer contain them.

greyman< Yopo: ... or who have learned to release them constructively. *G*.

guitarist< Yes, Yopo, I agree with you that many are strokes waiting to happen, though they appear calm externally. :)

RiverBrats [Trinkat<] (((Yopo)))) Greetings and welcome. My coworkers have come to understand that when I am chewing on the leg of the table in my office, it is not a good time to come ask me a stupid question. LEGS says: And some people just don't get the point . And K'AM says: Nice to see ya, hon.

LadyV< A young man eagerly described what he dreamed of doing for the poor. Said the Master, "When do you propose to make your dream come true?" "As soon as the opportunity arrives." "Opportunity never arrives," said the Master, "It's here." --Anthony De Mello

DestinyB< LadyV: I like that quote!

LadyV< And this is for friend Yopo: "If you lived today as if it were your last, you'd buy a box of rockets and fire them all off, wouldn't you?" --Garrison Keillor

Yopo< LadyV: *G* Point well taken.

greyman< My candle burns at both ends; It will not last the night; But, ah, my foes, and oh, my friends -- It gives a lovely light. -- Edna St. Vincent Millay

LadyBleu< Age is a very high price for maturity. *chuckling* Yes, and I can bite too. I remember when I was a pup, the strap to me in a cruel way to show love or discipline. In me it developed a "get even" feeling! I now know that what or who you hate, you MIGHT just become! Becoming a light-worker many years ago taught me it is never too late to become more than I had perceived about me and others !

RiverBrats< pushing refresh ... striving for maturity ... age has already arrived ... send maturity soon ... please ... pushing refresh ... Welcome new arrivals - just jump in anytime, please.

greyman< LadyBleu: How quick vee get olden, unt how slow vee get gersmarten!

DestinyB< greyman: You're probably correct on the exact wording ... it was a high school teacher who said it to me.

Ben< greyman: The way I heard it from an old German farmer when I was a kid was: "Ach, yah ... vee get so soon old und so late schmart."

greyman< Ben: *G*

RiverBrats< Running around in circle holding out net -- waiting to catch maturity as it falls to earth ... und some schmartz, ve hope ...

Ben< LadyBleu: It does sound as though your daughter came to you with a special (karmic) purpose. Perhaps she was your friend (mentor?) in a previous life. In any case, it is rather apparent that some souls arrive on this planet more mature than others. (I think it's a statistical distribution: a few are born very mature, many are more mature than average, most are in the middle of the bell-curve, many are less mature than average, and a few are very immature.)

LadyBleu< Ben: Oh! Thank you for that acknowledgment. I agree and it is my understanding also. I still have tapes of my daughter, starting at 5 years of age, when she so eloquently articulated very high understanding. It amazed me at the time (I treasure these tapes). She began to give me a discourse on "Humans do not understand the meaning or purpose of "Marriage". She said that there were less than a handful of true marriages on Earth at that time. It has taken some Illumination of my mind to realize the meaning there, in her precious words. I now understand what Twin Flames mean ... coming together in a planned life time ... timely for what their WORLD MISSION is ... for the express purpose to help fulfill the Grand Divine Plan for all mankind. Yes, Ben, I feel she has been my mentor before and still is in many ways. I learned (*G* difficult for this adamant one) to stop preaching to her. She has also taught me how to listen better, too, by example. *S*

DestinyB< LadyBleu: It's sad when you meet your twin flame and they don't recognize you and slip away.

guitarist< DestinyB: You mean that can happen? Twin flames can miss each other?

LadyBleu< DestinyB: You don't want to meet your Twin Flame in this life time. Believe me! Best to meet on the inner first and know what and when before embodiment. *S* Not too worry, darling! You may not like making love to yourself ... teehee!

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DIVER< Hi all! Someone is from NM ??

greyman< DIVER: I sure could go for some Taos right about now!

DIVER< greyman: What do you mean? Do you live near?

LadyV< greyman: How are you? Isn't it vacation time for you and the family very soon? I think last year you went to Canada or some beautiful nature place ...

greyman< LadyV: Naaaa, I'm stuck with the lab rats until December, then the lab rats and I will go to the Keck Observatory in Hawaii.

LadyV< greyman: In Hawaii ... oh, that would be a beautiful place to be with lab rats or whatever...

greyman< DIVER: Your statement: "Hi all, someone is from NM?" parsed into "NM = New Mexico", and spiritually I am in Taos (at times). A much desired location on my part. However, I am located in Washington DC -- a place that I am not spiritually in!

LadyV< greyman: You are spiritually at Taos. Do the walls speak in the chapel there? I wanted to ask someone that would know ... do they?

greyman< LadyV: Taos ... Love it there. A scientist friend of mine owns about 16 acres. When I retire, I will be on my way. "Just passing through on my way to Australia" --James Garner (Support Your Local Sheriff) *G*.

LadyV< greyman: That would be heaven on earth. I have promised myself to go there. I want to feel it. It has a magical call. I was reading about Taos in older books from explorers that had been there. The pictures draw. Good luck ... hope you make it.

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Yopo< Hello Ben. *S*

Ben< Yopo: Hi, amigo! It's good to see you. (It's been awhile...)

Yopo< Ben: Yeah, it has! Been missing the seminars... Hope you're doin' well. Heating up here in northwest Indiana tonight. Think we're gonna have a real sauna by tomorrow.

Ben< Yopo: I've been well -- thanks for asking -- and very busy. I called this seminar "Impromptu" because it was. How are you ? (Besides preparing for the sauna, which invokes certain images...)

Yopo< Ben: Deplorably lazy. *LOL* Been doing experiments on prolonged periods of unconsciousness the last couple of weekends. Making up for lack of sleep during the work week, I guess. Not much else to report. Painting some, reading some... I was surprised to suddenly find it July.

RiverBrats< Yopo and Ben: Down here we say it's like being hit in the face with a hot wet towel. *s

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LadyV< Ben: I was considering this one: "All the qualities of a spiritual teacher can be found in a person who can cook an egg perfectly." --Sufi Teacher. I have to think about that one for awhile. (grinning)

Ben< LadyV: I think, if one tried to get him to expand on his statement about the qualities of a spiritual teacher, the Sufi master might ask, "Do you know anyone who can cook eggs perfectly?"

guitarist< Ben & LadyV: Sounds like it's very difficult to cook eggs perfectly. ;) And very easy to cook them approximately correctly.

LadyV< Ben: Good point! I could not cook a decent egg if my life depended on it. One of my friends gave me one of those antique skillets that are used over wood stoves, and I watched her fry eggs. Did not work for me. I can make those delicate little tissue-like wraps for stuffing food inside, but fry an egg ... nope! Do you cook?

guitarist< LadyV: You mean phyllo dough? That's amazing!

LadyV< guitarist: Glad you can cook eggs.

guitarist< LadyV: I can cook eggs approximately, not perfectly. :)

LadyV< guitarist: There is a trick ... use wax paper to grease the pan, and you have to control the temperature of the dough. It takes awhile ... not my favorite thing to do. You can make a guitar sing and cry ... so don't burn your hands on anything! Hire help!

Ben< LadyV: Do I cook? Not voluntarily. *S*

LadyV< Ben: The reason I asked is because it's a hobby for some.

RiverBrats [LEGS<] Leoprechaun is an international gourmet cook ... I get wonderful meals. [Trinkat<] And I think he can curse in 30 languages. He was, after all, a merchant marine for 312 years ...

guitarist< Excuse me, RiverBrats, do you mean in all his lifetimes put together?

RiverBrats< Trinkat picks herself up from the floor -- LEGS has a mean backhand ... Okay, it was only 42 years and it's only 29 languages ... sorry, sheeeeeeesh ...

guitarist< LOL @ RiverBrats!!! You gals are funny!!!

LadyV< You know, guitarist, what is beautiful about the RiverBrats? They love each other and really like each other ... makes one feel good to be around them even in cyberspace.

guitarist< LadyV: You're absolutely right. Even though I haven't seen a-one of them, their love comes through clear as a mountain stream ... and maybe someday I'd like to actually go to the mountain and take a drink.

LadyV< guitarist: Might be the case. LEGS can pack faster than a wink of the eye, and she is not afraid to drive from here to kingdom come, either, I would imagine. (teasing LEGS)

RiverBrats< (((((((LadyV))))))) ((((((((guitarist)))))) Three blushing Texas ladies ... thanks, ya'll.

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Yopo< LadyV: Big black iron skillet was what my granny always used for eggs. She also commented sometimes that certain things just couldn't be done properly without a wood stove ... bread, for one. *S*

LadyV< Yopo: The iron skillet is an amazing thing. No kitchen should be without it. I did not inherit my Grandmother's skillet. Last I saw, one of the cousins was baking pineapple upside down cake in it ... and I made a mental note of that one. (laughing)

Yopo< LadyV: Granny used the skillet for some of the best fried chicken I've ever tasted. First fried it, then the whole skillet went in the oven for baking, after pouring off drippings into a SECOND skillet for chicken gravy. Uh, I'm getting hungry just thinking about it. Was the center of a typical July outdoor meal at the grandparents' house. Tables set up outside, down by Wildcat Creek at the back end of their property.

guitarist< Yopo: You're making ME hungry. Sounds wonderful ... and awfully hot in the kitchen. I wouldn't want to do it on a sauna day. *s*

RiverBrats [Trinkat<] Yopo: Ever eaten fried cornbread? Can't be done if you don't have an iron skillet and great wrists.

Yopo< RiverBrats: Hmm... Don't remember her frying cornbread, but she sometimes baked cornbread in one of her skillets. *S* // guitarist: Oh, yeah, granny's kitchen on a hot summer day could be like the boiler room of the Titanic. *LOL* That was in the days of big screen doors and open summer windows, though, and the old farmhouse was built to catch the breezes. My other grandparents (paternal) also had an old farmhouse. This one had an outdoor "summer kitchen", but it had been unused for years.

LadyV< Yopo: Nice memories to own ... good for you ... (smiling)

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Sprinkles< Greetings everyone. Sorry I had to leave earlier. My dog got hold of a toad and I had to flush his mouth clean. It is Monsoon season here as well as toad season.

dreamseer< Sprinkles: hee hee, I know the feeling. My dog has a tendency to want to catch things, too. *S*

LadyV< Sprinkles: Keep fresh herbs. My dog goes to the herb bed when she goes after a toad ... but then, the toads where you are might be more poisonous. She goes for the mint, mostly.

Sprinkles< LadyV: Thank you for the advice. Any herb in particular? I have two dogs. The older one knows better than to bother the toads, but the young one is only a year old. Just got it's first lesson on no toads. lol

LadyV< Sprinkles: I grow mint, mainly, and one other ... drat! how do you spell it? Chamomile, I think. It's used in tea. The animals go to the herb bed to heal upset stomachs, and with the case of the toads, and if they get a bad insect bite near the mouth. The older dog will teach the young one to go to the herb bed. My cats taught the dog.

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LadyBleu< I was a bit shy to tell on myself to all you strangers that I now feel so open with tonight. Thank you, LadyV, Ben and others, for your thoughtful responses to my feelings and typed words. Thank you! ... All of you! Thank you! And ***Greetings*** to the late arrivals! *VBS* und "too soon late?" *S* Oh well. I feel much younger and lighter right now! May it be sustained and expanding! *happy chuckling*

Ben< LadyBleu: Your last post shows my basic reason for holding these seminars, which is to (hopefully) provide a time and place where we can be open-hearted and thoughtful-minded. Thank you.

LadyBleu< Ben: It appears that you have accomplished exactly just that. A new way of being here, huh? I like it. I like it! Thanks for providing a forum in which our voices may be heard. What is your secret of such a way ... other than your obvious depth of Understanding with grand ability to "hear/feel" the meaning within our words? Do you have an autobiography on your web page? I'm anchored in California these days. Where do you hang your hat?

Ben< LadyBleu: I have a lot of my spiritual experiences on my website, though not a formal biography as such. (I also have a link at the bottom of the first page to another section in which I've posted two books of my poetry.)

LadyBleu< Thank you, Ben, I shall take a looksee! Would love to see what you do, or know your autobiography ... very curious ... Like what you did as a boy and what you aspired to be or do. Have you fulfilled many of your desires and dreams that were from youth? ... Ahhh! Does anybody? *giggles* Hummmmm! They say even an adept or a Master Artist, an intelligent creative person (heart felt) or any other un-ascended Master continues to strive for more and better. It must be a deep memory or calling from soul. This insatiable urge that "tugs" from within will not end ...

guitarist< Very nice to meet you, LadyBleu. I hope we'll be seeing you again. :)

greyman< LadyBleu: May you find peace and prosperity on your journeys.

RiverBrats< LadyBleu: Godspeed

LadyBleu< Great big iron skillet huggles {{{{{{{{{{ guitarist, greyman, RiverBrats, Ben }}}}}}}}}} THANKEE!

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LadyV< Ben: Do the spirits sometimes arrive with smells of pipe smoking and other things like perfumes, etc?

[Ben< LadyV: Yes. But those smells aren't caused by chemicals in the air; some spirits can transmit smells, as some can transmit visions. And some people have also done this; for example, Padre Pio was noted for sending the smell of flowers.]

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poohbear< hey, guys

LadyV< Hi, poohbear

poohbear< (((((((Ben))))))) Sorry I haven't been around. I am real sick. I have fluid on my spine and its making me very ill.

Yopo< Sorry to hear you've been ill, poohbear...

LadyV< poohbear: That is uncomfortable, to be ill.

poohbear< It's OK. The doctors thought it was a tumor in brain because of passing out spells and dizziness and vision problems, but it's fluid on my spine.

RiverBrats< (((((poohbear))))) Prayers and healing energy being beamed at you in triple band width ... feel better soon, sweetheart.

poohbear< Thanks, hun. It's been rough but I am trying to be brave.

Sprinkles< Greetings, poohbear. ((((hugs))) Good to see you here. *S*

Ben< poohbear: Hello! I'm sorry that you're sick. Fluid on the spine doesn't sound like fun. (I haven't been here for about a month, either. I'm feeling well; just busy.)

poohbear< Glad to hear you are alright, Ben.

guitarist< May the fluids drain and reincorporate into the rest of your body, poohbear!

poohbear< Thanks, guitarist.

LadyBleu< Poohbear: I hope you are in the care of the right people. This happened to a friend of mine, of long standing. She tumbled from a low roof on her head ... about 6 or 7ft ... and I had just heard about it. Oh Dear ... If I had known, I would have carried her or taken her on a bike if need be *S* to a Chiropractor and Acupuncturist first, then add whatever next. Lovingly, I do encourage you to see a competent Osteopathic Chiropractor -- one who is a Palmer School graduate is my first choice. I will "look" ... with your permission. Are there any spiritual healers to assist you? Perhaps a "psychic surgeon"! Do you have one leg shorter than the other? Just a feeling!!

poohbear< Thanks, hun, I will be seeing an osteopathic doctor, or whatever he's called.

guitarist< poohbear: I think the doctors are called Osteopaths and Chiropractors. I agree with the advice to go see one -- an osteopath first.

poohbear< Well, all, I must get some shut eye. And thanks all for the advice.

LadyV< night poohbear rest well...

RiverBrats< poohbear: (((((((((HUGS))))))))))) dear heart ... prayers go with you as you leave to rest ... may the angels guard you and guide you ... go with love surrounding you and peace enveloping you and the white light of hope and healing illuminating you.

poohbear< Thanks for your kind words, RiverBrats. :)

Yopo< Good night, poohbear...

LadyBleu< Be well, dear poohbear. Listen to your heart. Do what is best. Go seek out some professional counseling if you can ... just to talk, perchance. There is much for you to understand for a quicker recovery ... this cause and effect syndrome. Be wise ... Ask.

Ben< poohbear: Goodnight. May you sleep well and awake refreshed.

guitarist< ... and may that fluid find other ways of being in your body, poohbear. ((((HUGS))))

poohbear< Thanks to everyone else, too. :) ((((((((((((hugs))))))))))))))))

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DestinyB< guitarist: I had a website devoted to soulmates (took it down). Here is some of what it said; SOULMATES -- Quotes from the book, "Only Love is Real" by Brian L. Weiss, M.D. Destiny dictates the meeting of soulmates. We WILL meet them. But what we decide to do after that meeting falls in the providence of choice or free will. A wrong choice or a missed chance can lead to incredible loneliness and suffering. A right choice, an opportunity realized, can bring us to profound bliss and happiness. There is someone special for everyone. Often there are two or three or even four. They come from different generations. They travel across oceans of time and the depths of heavenly dimensions to be with you again. They come from the other side, from heaven. They look different, but your heart knows them. Your heart has held them in arms like yours in the moon-filled deserts of Egypt and the ancient plains of Mongolia. You have ridden together in the armies of forgotten warrior-generals, and you have lived together in the sand-covered caves of the Ancient Ones. You are bonded together throughout eternity, and you will never be alone. Your head may interfere: "I do not know you." Your heart knows. He takes your hand for the first time, and the memory of his touch transcends time and sends a jolt through every atom of your being. She looks into your eyes, and you see a soul companion across centuries. Your stomach turns upside down. Your arms are gooseflesh. Everything outside this moment loses its importance. He may not recognize you, even though you have finally met again, even though you know him. You can feel the bond. You can see the potential, the future. But he does not. His fears, his intellect, his problems keep a veil over his heart's eyes. He does not let you help him sweep the veil aside. You mourn and grieve, and he moves on. Destiny can be so delicate. When both recognize each other, no volcano could erupt with more passion. The energy released is tremendous. Soul recognition may be immediate. A sudden feeling of familiarity, of knowing this new person at depths far beyond what the conscious mind could know. At depths usually reserved for the most intimate family members. Or even deeper than that. Intuitively knowing what to say, how they will react. A feeling of safety and a trust far greater than could be earned in only one day or one week or one month. Soul recognition may be subtle and slow. A dawning of awareness as the veil is gently lifted. Not everyone is ready to see right away. There is a timing at work, and patience may be necessary for the one who sees first. You may be awakened to the presence of your soul companion by a look, a dream, a memory, a feeling. You may be awakened by the touch of his hands or the kiss of her lips, and your soul is jolted back to life. The touch that awakens may be that of your child, of a parent, of a sibling, or of a true friend. Or it may be your beloved, reaching across centuries, to kiss you once again and to remind you that you are together always, to the end of time.

DestinyB< sorry ... didn't mean to SPAM you!

guitarist< DestinyB: Don't worry about it; I copied it into a Word document for my edification. :)

DestinyB< guitarist: There are some very good books about soulmates and twin flames. If the other person doesn't recognize your connection in this lifetime, it can be heartbreaking. Just because you both show up in this lifetime is no guarantee that you will get together and work on whatever it is that you're supposed to work out.

Ben< DestinyB: That post has content and it is beautifully written. So it isn't spam, in my opinion.

DestinyB< Ben: Thanks!

guitarist< I thought DestinyB's content was very interesting as well, Ben. I will think on this. Many people say that when you don't marry someone that it isn't G-d's will. But as this suggests, maybe G-d's will has less to do with marriages than we think. After all, entering into marriage is, by and large, a choice made by the couple, isn't it?

RiverBrats [Trinkat<] Your need for a soulmate can be a powerful weapon when used against you. Be very careful when someone identifies you as their soulmate.

guitarist< Yes, Trinkat, I agree with you. No one has identified me as their soulmate; not to worry.

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LadyV< Ben: I have found one of the Scottish clan in the ancestor records ... caused me to laugh.

Ben< LadyV: I must have missed a stitch there: what about the Scottish clan in the ancestor records made you laugh?

LadyV< Ben: Well, lets see ... one of the Clansman was upset because he was not allowed to marry a woman from Norway, so he bored holes in the boat of her father, then relented with remorse and had his men stick their fingers in the holes so it would not sink. Causes me to laugh ... that's a Scot ... get mad and then repent ...

RiverBrats< ((((LadyV)))) Whoa ... what a hoot !!!!!

LadyV< RiverBrats: And to top that, they went to war for the heck of it. I am not sure if I am going to send that to the family. Of course, it was on my Grandmother's side of the fence, so that might explain the skillet. Nuts ... we are all a result of our ancestors, one way or the other ... and it's fun to find out about them.

RiverBrats< LadyV: *giggling*

Ben< LadyV: Hah! Yes, there are some really funny anecdotes in the old records. One of my relatives and his buddy shot off a cannon and yelled "The Indians are coming!" Caused quite a stir that spread to several towns in Mass Bay Colony. They were discovered, tried, found guilty, and sentenced to run the gantlet (between two rows of men with clubs and sticks and such). But when they took off their shirts in preparation for that event, the ladies took one look at them and talked the men out of administering the punishment.

LadyV< Ben: That is delightful ...I like that!

guitarist< That handsome, eh, Ben? Or that ugly?

Ben< guitarist: I wouldn't know. Though I suspect the ladies thought they were handsome -- and told their husbands something like: "They are just boys, too young to be beaten like that." [When I told my wife this story, she said the women said to their husbands: "These boys are for our daughters; don't damage them."]

LadyV< I am thinking of my Grandmother with skillet in hand chasing one of my Uncles with it ... he had brought in game and took it into her clean kitchen without dressing it outside. She was so mad! I laugh to remember ... she was short and he was over 6 feet tall, but he ran from that skillet ...

Yopo< LadyV: *hehehe* Skillet-cooks are often well-versed in the martial arts of skillet-wielding...

LadyV< Yopo: You got that right! A broom doesn't get attention as much as the skillet does. And then she would go off to Church with my Grandfather (a proper Minister) and look like she was without any temper at all, sitting on the front pew.

RiverBrats< Martial cooking ????

LadyV< RiverBrats: Meaning, one foot in the air, skillet above head, eyes straight ahead, other hand in balance ... and her aim is just about right. (laughing)

RiverBrats< *giggling*

LadyV< I made soup tonight and all my ancestors danced in the pot, with the barley the beans, the knuckle and neck bones, enriching this brew; Here women joined love and ancient wisdom, the knowledge salt and pepper bring; secrets that are ritual and legacy. --Elsa Garcia

Yopo< A properly handled skillet never needs to be actually used. Its presence in the hand of an adept is enough to defuse most any confrontational situation. *G*

LadyV< I am laughing so hard ... buy one and see what happens ...

RiverBrats< Yopo: That would be better to carry with you than a whistle (for single women, doncha know). Do they come in keychain versions?

guitarist< Has anyone seen any of these skillet keychains? I would like one myself. *LOL*

LadyV< I think that a hiss always works, girls ... just a low hiss. The whistle might get the dogs stirred up ...

guitarist< Getting dogs stirred up is the right idea. Make lots of noise, attract attention!

RiverBrats< Yopo: K'AM wants to know if these skillet keychains (maybe with a built in whistle) would be hot sellers on our trip (like the air fresheners for the Ohio wagons).

Yopo< RiverBrats: I'm not sure what it was that REALLY intimidated my granddad ... the iron skillet, or the forearms my granny had from lifting the things. *S* She had a couple of HUGE skillets she used for family cooking.

LadyV< Yopo: Have you lifted one of those things lately? They are heavy. And your Grandfather was grateful for life. Such a woman could cook and keep her family happy ... not to mention, in his old age, she might have to help him along a bit.

LadyBleu< LOL with everybody! What a good group ... so humorous ... and I could tell a few of the folk lore stories, too! In this lifetime, and they are my very own dysfunctional relatives, too. LOL I bet our original ancestors were "dysfunctional" from the very beginning. Ha! ... Had to be ... *muffled snicker*

DestinyB< LadyBleu: A very good point!

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LadyV< I don't know much about soulmates ... twin flames ... would like to know more about past life sharing, though. Do they have to love you to be in your past life?

DestinyB< LadyV: No, people don't have to love each other to reincarnate together. Group reincarnation is commonplace.

LadyV< DestinyB: That's good, because I get to liking someone long before I think about the love thingy. I do not know about group reincarnation. I think some people do ask "Where is my own?" -- a searching, I suppose. They might be looking for a group. I am not sure. But I want to know about the Nun who blessed me as I walked past her convent in Louisiana. She was perhaps the group ... bless her. I wanted to hug that dear lady. Maybe what you are saying is that those who know you find you?

DestinyB< LadyV: Yes, you will meet the right person at the right time. I believe that "Love at first sight" is actually rediscovering someone one was in love with in a past life.

LadyV< DestinyB: Then I must have known that gentle Nun by love. I will always remember her ... suppose you are right in that.

DestinyB< LadyV: I once met a man for the first time and felt like a bolt of lightning struck me. He was hurrying past and he stopped and stared at me. What it all boiled down to was this: He was interested in getting to know me better, but I was unavailable (married with a child). In the past life we shared, I was the one who was available and he was the one who was married with responsibilities. We had to walk a mile in each other's shoes to experience what the other felt. It was never meant to be anything more.

LadyV< DestinyB: That is an experience to remember. I don't know about man and woman and instant love. I have not had the experience. I would imagine that it would be profound. I do have rapport with many who are special to me. They are the ones that stick in my mind and heart, and I remember them with a grateful heart. They are the kind ones that touch your daily life ... and I believe that God sends them to you to make life bearable. I am glad that women do experience this that you mention.

LadyBleu< DestinyB: This nebulous chemistry thingie ... LOL ... it attracts old soul mates. Could be the same jealous lover who killed you in a previous life time. Look out, youngun! (However, for clarity, everyone to me is young. *S*)

Kiriel< One contacts another, as part of this world contract, written out before birth. Nothing is for chance, but free will, what we decide to do, re-live lessons over and over again before we get them right -- free will.

LadyV< Kiriel: Free will? Do I hear you saying that the contract is made before birth? I would not want to return with a stinker ...

Kiriel< Free will is a biggy, and sometimes it does tend to get us in a spin. Some times we end up in a place like -- say -- in the desert for 40 years or so before we see the way out.

LadyV< Kiriel: I'm not familiar with the concept of free will and being put in a desert for 40 years. My mind is very simple...

Ben< Kiriel: Yes ... 40 years or so in the desert before we find our way out. And there are many kinds of deserts.

LadyV< Ben: If the gentlemen is referring to the time of trial and discipline in the 40 years of the desert, then that makes sense ... otherwise I am lost on this one.

Ben< LadyV: I think that's what Kiriel meant.

Ben< ALL: Okay, 'tis midnight mountain time (2 am here), so it's time for me to go point my toes at the ceiling for awhile. Peace and blessings to each of you. *poof*