guitarist: /topic guitarist's seminar
December 9, 2000
10 pm EST, 10 CST, 9 MST, 8 PST
Subject: Marriage in the Context of Spirit
Editor: guitarist

guitarist: Welcome, everyone! Tonight, we will examine "Marriage in the Context of Spirit." I look forward to us beginning to explore together beyond physical and the legal and look at the spiritual bond of marriage in its proper setting. Are you ready? Let's begin.

guitarist: QUESTION 1: If you could see (or otherwise sense) a married couple in the spirit -- and not physically -- what kinds of indications/indicators do you think would tell you that they're married? If you wish, give an example of a couple you have observed in the spirit before they were married, and tell us: a) why you thought it would turn out the way it did, and b) how it actually turned out. YOUR TURN

FRAML: guitarist: That is a tough question. I've never thought about it before.

nortaes: I believe there would be an energy emanating around them. Very positive and energy enlightenment to those close by.

guitarist: Interesting observation, nortaes.

FRAML: There is a couple at church who announced their engagement recently. I wasn't surprised by it. They have known each other for many years. As the wedding isn't until February, I don't know how it will come out. Is that what you meant?

DestinyB: A familiarity bond between them.

guitarist: FRAML, yes, this is what I meant. Perhaps you would care to tell us how you think it will come out? And then, perhaps a year or several down the road, you will remember that we asked this question, and you will see whether your prediction was accurate.

FRAML: guitarist: I think that it will work out. Each of them have been divorced for many years and their children are grown. Actually they have known each other for 25+ years.

LEGS: Well, thinking of my youngest daughter and her husband... who, even before they married would be saying something and the other would nod and they didn't need to finish the sentence because they knew each others thoughts on what was being said..... Is this what you mean, guitarist?

guitarist: LEGS and FRAML: what you are bringing forth is the physical manifestation of what you perceived. The thing I'm trying to find out is: whether you knew about these people in other than a physical manner. Say, a dream, for instance, or an insight. Even such as, LEGS, the time when you knew your pastor's wife was pregnant before she did.

Ishtahota: guitarist When I saw the title for this class I thought you would go in a different direction with it.

guitarist: In what way, Ishtahota?

DestinyB: It depends on how long the couple have been together, how many lifetimes they've shared, how intimate the bond between them at the time you observe them. Marriages change with time and with events that occur in life.

FRAML: guitarist: For me nothing other than a physical manner and seeing how they interacted. I have to admit when it comes to picking up the type of insight you mention, I'm fairly closed.

guitarist: So am I, FRAML. But I am trying to allow for others who do...and we seem to have several here who do, at least at times.

LEGS: guitarist, I often perceive a level of relationship yearnings between people... sometimes when only one is radiating interest in the other... not a mutual thing... but perhaps this is also something physical that I am "reading"

Ishtahota: Marriage in a spiritual sense to me is using the physical marriage to reflect to each other what it is we need to see, so we can awaken and bond with that part of us which is asleep. Awakening the male and female in each of us so we can once again become whole spiritual beings.

guitarist: Ishtahota: What you are describing seems to be part of the complementary relationship a good marriage should have; that is, that growth should occur because of their interaction.

guitarist: Perhaps what I'm picking up by many of your responses is that the spiritual reading you're getting is closely tied with physical observation.

DestinyB: guitarist, maybe you could give us an example of what you're talking about.

greyman: Reply to question 1. In this culture (in my humble opinion) a married couple begins their relationship in a romantic way. And if it lasts beyond some time interval it usually transforms into some form of a cooperative friendship. In your scenario only one couple comes to mind. In high school I had two friends (male and female) that stuck together like glue. Both were brilliant and completely "nonphysical". One became a priest the other became a nurse. They were the best of friends and reminded me of a married couple of many years (well beyond their age). I am sad to say that I have never seen this kind of relationship since.

guitarist: Wow, greyman. I hadn't this type of relationship in mind, does work. Perhaps they were married before (in a previous life) as DestinyB suggested earlier.

LEGS: greyman, my mom would have called the priest and nurse.... kindred souls

nortaes: guitarist: do you believe a couple could be married in spirit and not physically and maintain an energy level beneficial to both?

FRAML: nortaes: I've no thoughts on that myself, but I'm interested in what do you believe?

nortaes: FRAML: I believe the existence of an energy to sustain two people in a spiritual marriage.

LEGS: I do believe that it is possible to "feel" a person's energy and mood over the internet....

guitarist: DestinyB: I never have. But if I had a vision of two people, saw them in spirit, if they were married, what might I see? Ben gave me a comment on this question: There are some who can see that a couple is married in the spirit. They are linked together, and often closely joined. Some are side-by-side. Some are embracing in spirit. I was wondering whether others had different ways of perceiving this.

Allyandria: LEGS HI My Friend **** I do feel someone I have been having a Friendship for sometime now we are now both feeling each other over the Internet or the energy between us is growing for the better ***************

nortaes: Allyandria...thank you I understand what you are saying. Have you ever met this person?

Allyandria: Nortaes Not in 3-D as of yet but he calls me once a week and we talk for a while ************ but today was the first time we really felt or sensed each other *********

guitarist: This next question may surprise some of we go...

guitarist: QUESTION 2: Have you ever had the opportunity to observe a long-term non-married couple, whether heterosexual or homosexual, in spirit? What did this look/feel/sense like? In what ways was this similar to a heterosexual married couple? In what ways was it different? How much difference do you think sexual orientation makes in these matters? YOUR TURN

VenusRose: I have been friends with a non-married homosexual couple for approximately ten years and I see that they were meant for each other. both being male one assumes a feminine role or they both balance each other out. I found it to be very similar to a heterosexual relationship.

guitarist: Thank you, VenusRose, for your fine example. Others?

Allyandria: Nope I have never run into that before ****

nortaes: Venus: you are fortunate to have the opportunity to be around people that make you feel good...Great for them too!

VenusRose: nortaes...they are partly family and I just look at it as education as they have similar beliefs as mine. But thanks.

DestinyB: In spirit we are neither/both male and female. The same is true of soul mates, kindred spirits, and twin spirits. It's hard enough to observe others in the physical world, much less the spiritual world. I only know what people tell me about their relationships with others. I have enough trouble keeping up with my own spirit life!

guitarist: DestinyB, I think you speak for many. I'm laughing with you. // nortaes, I myself am fortunate to have a husband who was willing to share energy with me because he knew I wasn't whole, but he saw me as the whole person I wanted to become. If not for him, I wouldn't be here.

FRAML: I've never had that type of married relationship.

nortaes: DestinyB: we are both male and female in one and until we are we cannot be whole. I believe that is the mistake people make in attaching themselves to another without benefit of being a whole person. They sap the strength/energy from the other in an attempt to feel good about themselves.

LEGS: that is an interesting thought about being whole, nortaes...

DestinyB: nortaes, that's so true.

LadyV: I like nortaes' comment. It is wise.

nortaes: This is not my teaching. It is what I have learned from the "insights" of the celestine prophecy!

FRAML: nortaes: Is that what you believe then?

nortaes: FRAML: I have lived this and learned as of late it is true. Some soul searching and introspect has helped me find it.

FRAML: nortaes: Thanks.

greyman: Reply to question 2. Of the set of heterosexual or homosexual groups observed (by yours truly). The sample is somewhat skewed. I know of only four homosexual couples. All of the homosexual couples are split up or dysfunctional to the point of being destructive. Of all the heterosexual couples I know of fall into two categories. (1) Married with children. And (2) DINKS -- dual income, no kids. In the first group (several dozen) only two couples are no longer together. Of the second group (several dozen again) about half are no longer together. Evidence of data (for this small sample) suggest that children offer a stabilizing factor in a given relationship. I am sure you can make the "tail wagging the dog" argument to the observed correlation, but it would appear that children may act as a "care" glue in a relationship.

FRAML: greyman: I would venture that at least one of the married with kids may be together in legal sense only. That any sort of spiritual bond has long since evaporated. Here, your comment that kids being the uniting factor may be true.

FRAML: guitarist: I guess I've not spent much time noticing non-married heterosexual couples. I could make comment on married couples I've known though.

guitarist: Third question coming up...

guitarist: QUESTION 3: Have you observed the foregoing couples in the material world together? How well did their behavior correlate with what you saw in the spirit? How would you use information such as what you just told us to counsel a couple seeking to get married? To assess your own marriage? If you have ever done either of these, please tell us how you did it. YOUR TURN

DestinyB: When two incomplete people are in a relationship together { they think of each other as 'my better half'} split up, each feels like only a part of a person. It takes both people together to feel whole and complete. When two people who are already complete find one another, there is a chance for true, real love between them.

nortaes: guitarist: I have had a long standing relationship with an individual for over 29 years. When our social situations changed (divorce) we still had energy being with one and another, but it was not quite correct. We still have an energy we have shared for all of those years, even over the internet, in dreams, and phone conversations. He is becoming whole and I am becoming whole. I believe we will someday meet our destiny with each other. When the time is right!

greyman: Reply to question 3: A martial arts master I know at work has given me the most powerful spiritual solution to any problem in any marriage: "Yes Dear". :o)

DestinyB: :-D

guitarist: greyman: Care glue. Nice way of putting it! This brings up the reason I'm not so sure two people have to be absolutely whole to find "love." I think that ongoing caring is more than what people label as love, when they say, "love is not enough."

Jello: Or perhaps the DINKS relationship was never deep enough to yield kids, and that's why you see them tend to split up.

nortaes: Guitarist: exactly love energizes you. It does not drain you.

DestinyB: greyman, that doesn't explain all the couples who divorce after the children are grown and out of the house. The old, "staying together for the children" thing is still alive and kicking. People sometimes stay together because they don't want to damage the children and for economic reasons too.

greyman: DestinyB, {that doesn't explain all the couples who divorce...} This is outside of my set, sorry.

Jello: I have heard it said that having kids in a troubled relationship only results in troubled kids. It also seems that kids can be the focus; once they are gone the marriage has been so poorly maintained that it falls apart. (Usually the parents realize at some point they are just staying together for the kids.)

greyman: Jello, my wife and I are DINKS and I can't for the life of me think of being married to any one else. We have tried and have discovered medical reasons why this is so. We develop in other ways. :o)

Jello: But it sounds like you are not DINKS by choice or intention.

FRAML: greyman: and when you two go ice skating does that make you rinky dinks?

nortaes: Greyman: have you and your wife adopted, in spirit, a child to give your attention and love to?

greyman: nortaes, To some extent. I mentor (some) young scientists and engineers at NASA. Mrs. greyman is a children's librarian. And we have tried to purchase (unsuccessfully) some of the children in our congregation. :o)

FRAML: greyman: I would venture to guess that you and Mrs. greyman have 'adopted' nieces and nephews that you foster loving parental type care toward.

nortaes: Sounds like the two of you have enormous energy to show to a child. Not only biological parents help children grow. God parents, neighbors, and family also share a part and responsibility for sharing and caring of a child.

greyman: FRAML ;o}

LEGS: greyman, sometimes being childless keeps one more 'ready' to do what God would have one to do... children can be a demand on parent's time that is available in any context.

DestinyB: I agree greyman. Every case is individual. I can only speak from experience.

guitarist: I came into a marriage with a child already in it; we have no children of our own. In this situation, only the tight focus on why we came together in the first place kept us together. After ten years, we can be considered a fairly well blended family.

DestinyB: Children are more resilient than most people give them credit for.

LEGS: I think personally, that great harm can be done to children trapped in a home with parents in a loveless or love-loss marriage. They learn by hearing and by understanding what isn't said... and are trained to regard this as a normal way for people to relate to one another.... sad.

FRAML: LEGS: Yes it is sad. Folks ought to have enough sense to end it for the kids sake.

Jello: LEGS: although research suggests divorce tends to be more harmful to kids than their parents staying together in a loveless marriage....

FRAML: Jello: I think they are, since they don't own any baby goats. :)


nortaes: FRAML: LOL you are bad! (a funny bad)

LEGS: I haven't seen such research, Jello, all I've read indicates the contrary. But of course, in some instances, the kids don't survive the situation at all.

Jello: What to do when one intended to be in a DINKS relationship, and now that's changing but one feels one doesn't have the relationship one wants if one is going to have kids? Interesting question? And how does the Biblical injunction against divorce figure in to all this?

FRAML: Jello: I'm a poor person to ask about biblical injunction toward divorce. I guess there are times when that is the only way. It is a case of 'not desired, but sometimes required.'

Jello: I've actually been reading about affairs and it is very surprising stuff -- usually the two "illicit" people feel they are soul mates and share a lot of joy and love ... except if they do divorce and marry each other, they have a 90% divorce rate! What might account for that?

nortaes: Jello: HORMONES!

Jello: nortaes: Heh. ;)

FRAML: Jello: I think that the idea of 'soul mate' as a 'lover's match' is over blown. That people use the search for a soul mate as a reason to not try harder in the marriage they may be in or as a rationale for not examining the relationship they have with someone who doesn't set off whatever they think are the alarms that indicate 'soul mate found.'

LEGS: Jello, I think the answer to your question about couples who have been in an affair and then marrying face a greater divorce rate because they realize the other person is capable of breaking the marriage trust... because they did with each other. It makes them more jealous and suspicious... two things that do not foster happiness in any marriage

LadyV: nortaes if you would not mind you know what the 'spirit child' would be is esoteric term?

nortaes: Yes, you do not have to biologically be responsible for the child's existence to care or nurture the child.

LadyV: nortaes thank you. I was thinking in terms of the 'spirit child' as in what is the result of the union between a man and a woman that have a spiritual union. It is more complex that this... to break it down... as an example, a man and a woman that have from the union and the love produce 'spiritchild' great music....great in Greyman's view of the couple that became a Priest and a Nurse. It is not a child of a physical union. If a man and a woman achieve this production of a 'spirit child' they are often very happy together. The ancients say the child is a symbolical result of the union of the auras between the man and the woman.

nortaes: Lady, V: interesting I have not thought about it in that context. Thank you!

LEGS: LadyV, that is such a beautifully stated concept of the aura's and the spirit child... I appreciate your comments here.

LadyV: LEGS thank you.

nortaes: Lady V: The spirit child is indeed an energy force given out to those around the couple. What a wonderful world we could have if more "spirit child" auras were being given out. ;-}

LadyV: nortaes yes....[smiling]

verge: But what is marriage in the context of spirit?

FRAML: verge: that is what we have been discussing for the last hour.

verge: FRAML, so what is the spiritual connection to what has been said?

nortaes: Greyman: LOL I read you...good feelings seeing them grow and be able to stand in the background with a safety net in case they just happen to need someone, some day!

verge: Marriage in the context of spirit, would seem to me to imply two souls coming together to enrich each others experience on the journey to enlightenment and understanding.

guitarist: Yes, verge; Ishtahota brought that up at the beginning of the seminar. What a pity he couldn't stay.

FRAML: guitarist, do you have a final thought?

guitarist: COMMENT: I have observed that, no matter how many obstacles are faced at the outset, the factor of caring (not "love" as some would have it) is probably most important in how a marriage turns out. Of course, this means the couple must care enough to do whatever it takes to make it work, as well as be in love. As I quoted from Ben earlier, the marriage relationship and special caring connection can be perceived in spirit by those who can.

Jello: It's all very interesting... though it appears that for the people involved in any kind of marital conflict, it's all very painful and confusing. Sometimes I wonder why we bother?

[The following comment was apparently an answer to a private message.]

LadyV: nortaes and this aura is seen as a green or blue light over the couch ....[smiling] joy to you and what is in your heart.

nortaes: Yes, contentment is everything in life!

FRAML: It is interesting that there was a person who used to come here with whom I had an interesting relationship. We could be in different conversations in a room, but our statements to the person we were talking to reinforced what the other was saying to their person. That person said it was as if we were "twin souls". We discussed it and it seemed probable, however there was no romantic interest between us. It was that we were on the same mental wave length on spiritual matters, even though we were both traveling on our own spiritual journeys.

Jello: There's an interesting phenomenon where the *feeling* of caring can just vanish. Then I suppose it's a matter of relying on existing intentions (i.e., the knowledge one has made a commitment).

LEGS: Jello, for me "to bother" is to keep breathing... I thrive in relationship, and starve alone. My soul cries out for companionship and love. I care about others, and love my family. It gets complicated, but I don't mind the 'bother'

DestinyB: Having been on both sides of the marriage rollercoaster, my perspective has changed dramatically and my opinions have followed suit.

Jello: DestinyB: how has your perspective changed?

DestinyB: Jello: now that I'm divorced, I've learned not to be so judgmental towards others when I haven't experienced the same things they have.

Jello: DestinyB: Ah, yes ... I have learned over and over that I cannot throw stones at anyone for any flaws (though I have a tendency to do it anyway :)

nortaes: Jello: you of course are most aware that jello is always on shaky grounds! :-}

Jello: Nah, not shaky grounds -- the plate's quite stable -- just shaky inner self ;)

DestinyB: LOL @ nortaes comment about Jello!

idrawus: the title is ambiguous the spiritual marriage or a marriage of spirit beings?

guitarist: Probably more the first, idrawus. :)

idrawus: Tnx guitarist...*S*

guitarist: Everyone, Ben's new seminars are on greyman's site. He's wearing it tonight -- just click on his nic!

DestinyB: Marriage can be a spiritual bond, a love bond, a physical bond, a legal bond, or a combination. Many people are legally married long after the life has left their marriages. Part of this may be due to the fact that we were never meant to live over about 50. If people have a good marriage that has lasted long term, they are in the minority. I envy them and wish them well. Everyone has different lessons to learn and for some of us those lessons don't include finding the perfect person to spend 60 years with. Some of us will remain alone.

Jello: Some of us will make mistakes and hurt a lot of people in our own selfish rush to be what we think is happy ... or maybe we will hurt ourselves more in our rush to be selfless... I don't know.

idrawus: most marriages are based on the human decision, nothing to do with spirit being (higher-self) inhabited us, right? some people might have consulted with their higher self before a marriage taken place... *S*

LadyV: greyman: clicked on your now I know better what is going on.....couldn't get into the web site until you entered in here...not sure if others are having that problem or not....

nortaes: Goodnight all, thank you for your friendship and hospitality. Hopefully, I will be able to come back. Good night, good health!

Jello: Thank you to everyone for providing a hopeful, thoughtful, and compassionate chatspace :)

LEGS: {{{{{{{{{Jello}}}}}}}}} you have no idea dear heart how much your posted conversations with Ben and your page have helped me in the past.... thank you.

guitarist: Goodnight, nortaes...thank you for your insights. Please do come back!

FRAML: Next week's seminar will be: Past Life or Attachee Memories? facilitated by FRAML, start time 10 p.m. Eastern 16 December.

guitarist: Go FRAML! Go FRAML!

DestinyB: Goodnight nortaes! Nice to meet you! // FRAML, that sounds interesting! I plan to attend!

LEGS: guitarist, it was an interesting subject, though a bit over our heads and hearts, it seems... but we have had a full discussion of several points concerning marriage tonite... thank you for your preparation and care in presenting and leading tonite's seminar. (((((hugs)))))

LEGS: {*{*{*{*{*{*{*FRAML*}*}*}*}*}*}*}*}*}*}* I look forward to your discussion/seminar .... that will be a very interesting subject too.

FRAML: DestinyB: If you read the story on my site "Sgt. Odom" you will get an insight as to how I got the idea. There might be something else in my "Random Notes" about it, but I don't remember which one of them has it. (or if it is in one that I've got typed up but not posted)

DestinyB: I'll check your site, FRAML! 'night!

Jello: Well, the topic was very appropriate for me I suppose :)

thorjay: hi everyone

FRAML: Hello thorjay.

thorjay: im new here

guitarist: Hello, thorjay, welcome.

thorjay: what type of site do you have FRAML

FRAML: thorjay: Just click on my name and you will be connected. I've posted my journal notes of my spiritual journey of the last 7 years, and some of the conversation I've had with folks. I've more to post as I get it reviewed and typed up.

LEGS: guitarist, I generally benefit from being in these seminars.... sometimes things said will make more sense in some future context my life evolves into than it does when heard here.... but I appreciate the recorded transcripts being posted for reference. It enables one to go back and read again to define the context in their own situations.

guitarist: Yes, usual, this seminar will be posted by week's end. I also intend to give an edited version to Ben for comments before sending it to be posted. (I'm very partial to Ben's comments afterwards, as I've explained to the group before.)

[Ben: guitarist: In reading over this transcript, I didn't find a place where I felt I should insert a comment -- perhaps because my inserted comments have usually been in response to something addressed to me that I didn't see during the session, or a further explanation of something I posted. I think you did a good job leading this session, for which I thank you.]

FRAML: Tis nearly midnight and thus time for me to depart. Thank you guitarist for leading the seminar, and to everyone else for the participation. I'll see you all next Saturday at 10pm Eastern time. Good night all. ***POOOOOOF***

guitarist: Thank you, everyone, for your participation in this seminar. Blessings, health, peace, joy...on all who have come tonight. We hope to see you Saturday here in Amazon, when FRAML hosts at 10 p.m. US Eastern time, with the topic, "Past Life or Attachees?"

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