Power of Prayer, pt 3
Hosted by FRAML
Sat, 27-Jan-2001

LadyV< phillipo: Yes, we get together on Sat night when we can and have discussion. All are welcome ... we just follow one topic that we all agree on. And FRAML I think this time has chosen to ask the questions to help us along. You might enjoy it, phillipo ... it is those of us that you chat with in the other sites.

FRAML< SEMINAR CONCEPT --- These seminars are open to anyone who wants to attend. Each seminar will explore a stated topic. Each meeting will be a one hour guided discussion, followed by unguided discussion of the topic. There will be no fees or other charges, no grading system, and no predetermined "school solution." Selected portions of the meeting transcripts will be posted on this site -- but not if they contain a statement such as "off the record".

FRAML< SEMINAR GROUND RULES --- Courtesy is expected. Instead of attacking what others believe, say what you believe -- or politely ask others to explain what they post. Please keep your posts reasonably brief, and please don't get into off-topic side conversations. Please use the private message function to send greetings to new arrivals and to "whisper" in class once it starts. That way the text is easier for everyone to follow, and it is easier for me to clean up the transcript afterward.

FRAML< TO ALL: My daughter is doing better. Beginning seminar next post.

FRAML< This is the 3rd session on The Power of Prayer. I'm starting off with the question that I had left over from when we met 2 weeks ago.

FRAML< QUESTION # 1: What type of prayers do you consider legitimate, and why? Conversely, what types of prayers are not? (i.e., what is prayed for) Your Turn.

Dreami< I consider IMHO that prayers whereby the outcome will hurt someone else are not legitimate *S*

LadyV< Dreami: You mean the ones that start with 'sic em' God? [smiling]

Dreami< *G* @ LadyV ... yes, I guess so ... LOL

phillipo< Prayers are wishes, aren't they? Wishes come true ... as do prayers ... though the word Prayer gives wishes a more *religious* or spiritual meaning.

phillipo< Though any wish or prayer would be legitimate ... We cannot hold, or change our thoughts, can we? And we cannot stop having good or bad thoughts/wishes/prayers ... (good/bad being a matter of opinion, of course). *S*

Dreami< depending on the intent of the person praying, phillipo. *S* Not everyone is as spiritual as they try to show they are.

phillipo< Dreami: I'm a little unsure about whether spiritual intent can be measured. Everyone has a *spiritual* connection of some kind.

Dreami< that is true phillipo. I guess even though intent may not be "good" it is still a legitimate prayer. And yes, Sprinkles, it does depend who the prayer is directed to.

guitarist< I think that if there's a sincere expression of communication with G-d, it's most likely legitimate. There are many forms: in secret, with others, out loud, silent, as a thought ...

guitarist< ... and the most important part (and scariest to me sometimes) is the listening for any answers.

Dreami< *VBS* @ guitarist

Ishtahota< To me prayer is talking with God or spirits or ancestors. Meditation is listening.

Sprinkles< hmmm, I think I don't have a judgment of which is and which is not. That question I would leave to whom the prayer is directed to. But I think prayers that are made with a promise that if only my prayer would be answered I would do this or that and never followed through.

guitarist< *s* at Ishtahota

Dreami< phillipo: expand on that please

daCrone< * looking in the dictionary* ... illegitimate prayer vs. legitimate prayer ... hummm ... wondering if illegitimate prayer is possible ...

froggy< My prayers are most often in silence, a conversation heart to heart. And yes, sometimes I beg to know "why?"

Dreami< *VBS* @ froggy

daCrone< I am hearing you froggy ... I substitute conversation for prayer and ask myself, is illegitimate conversation possible?

DestinyB< Legitimate prayers: 1. Having a conversation with the higher power to give heartfelt thanks, to ask for guidance, to ask for healing, to discuss what is happening in one's life. 2 Illegitimate prayers: bragging, asking for material prosperity, asking for harm to come to another, asking for help when one can do it themselves.

Dreami< Exactly DestinyB!

FRAML< DestinyB: Good examples [You saw my list :-)]

guitarist< I agree with DestinyB concerning illegitimate prayer, and want to add: if you're praying for someone, that they'll do what you want (you have a hidden agenda regarding them), that's illegitimate, too.

DestinyB< Good point, guitarist! That's trying to change or manipulate another person's free will.

Ishtahota< guitarist: In regard to your post. If this is a world of free will and choice, then praying that someone else will do this or that could be putting your will over theirs.

guitarist< Ishtahota: Exactly.

FRAML< phillipo: Previously we had been discussing about praying for others when they needed help or healing. Also the concept here is praying to whatever god or deity you acknowledge. (I'm not limiting it to the Judeo-Christian tradition.)

phillipo< FRAML: Ah, *prayer Power* ... which is well-wishing, of course. I don't have any facts or figures, but would imagine that if many people have the same wish, or prayer, then it would be more likely to become reality.

LadyV< I am in agreement with phillipo about spiritual intent. I do feel that to ask God to punish someone is not wise ... in the Old Testament it is shown that this was a prayer. You know, that's a good question, FRAML ...

LadyV< Come to think of it, regardless of what belief system one has, it is known, I think ... if I understood ... that if you send it out, it comes back to you ... if negative or positive ...

daCrone< I can see that either prayer or conversation might be ill advised ... but is the root not valid? Is it a matter of worth? What I see as valid and worthy is not necessarily what another sees ... there's a judgment call embedded in this ... seeing now if I can switch tracks and come at it another way. *S*

greyman< Prayer procedure: (1) Stop. Do not think, remember. Set aside your troubles {easier said than done}. (2) Generate your up link. Think on beauty, some kindness you have done or have witnessed. (3) Open. Open your mind to the possibilities. (4) Ask. What about person, place or thing? (5) Listen. Listen to that small voice, inspiration or idea that pops into your mind. (6) Test the message. The good folks that help will not be offended. Look for hooks. If clean advice, feel free to use it. If you suspect not good don't use it. Example: if message advises you based on a desire, suspect the motive. If message is a threat, disconnect with great speed. Action is performed if and only if good can come from it.

Dreami< Yes, the last part of what greyman said is what I was trying to get at. *VBS* @ greyman

Dreami< only if good can come from it. *S*

daCrone< *S* @ greyman. I am thinking that true prayer takes place along those lines, greyman ... it seems to me the person must be open in heart and mind.

phillipo< Asking for something to happen ... (asking God to punish someone) ... could be considered as praying for them to receive Lessons to change their perspective on what they are doing? ... and, in turn, change their ways ...

LadyV< phillipo: That would cause me to feel concern, since I would be saying to the Almighty ... do this because I ask ... and I feel this person needs a lesson. I would be making a value judgment that is not mine to make ... since I am consulting with the Almighty, I would be hoping he makes the decisions.

Sprinkles< LadyV: Yes, I believe that also. The saying "Be careful what you wish for, you may get your wish, but it may not be in the way you want it" I think this would apply to prayer as well. *S*

phillipo< LadyV: So, asking for anything or whatever, then, ultimately, if we consider that God/source/Almighty edits our prayers, then only good will come of them (if that is what HE/IT/SHE wants).

DestinyB< I don't know about legitimacy, but I don't care much for public forced prayers, such as at a ball game or PTA meeting. I live in the Bible belt & these are very common here. Doing this forces one group's beliefs on everyone & is disrespectful of different beliefs. Church is a different matter. People sharing common beliefs coming together to worship & pray is different from the kind of public prayer. {Okay by me}

phillipo< This is going to be a great discussion, but unfortunately I must leave. (It's 4.30 am here in UK) Must get some sleep ... *God Bless ALL* ... And good fun with the seminar ...

LadyV< phillipo: I believe in the power of the Universe that includes and is God He/She and I belong to this family by choice ... and when I pray I expect to be heard and wisdom shown me ... according to what is best for all involved ... I do not make the decision to what I belong ... As I stated does ... and shows me accordingly ... that is if they can get through my rather thick head. [smiling]

phillipo< LadyV: That's true ... meaning, we get what we NEED, not necessarily what we WANT ? *S*

LadyV< phillipo: Well said! That is the essence ...

Dreami< *VBS* @ phillipo and LadyV ... agreed

FRAML< I'm going to post the 2nd question of the evening. And with it, I'm shifting away from the 1st question.

FRAML< QUESTION # 2: "How do we evaluate the effectiveness of our prayers?" and "How do we know they are answered?" are questions that always come up. What are YOUR experiences with whether or not a prayer was answered, and why/how were you able to determine that? Your turn.

greyman< FRAML: Sure, the current presidential election. *G*

daCrone< Yes, FRAML ... when my husband was in ICU and I asked for help, the response was immediate ... within 24 hours.

Dreami< Usually when a prayer is not answered, it turns out that the outcome was better for me anyway ... as if God says, "I will not give you this now, but wow, wait until you see what is coming." *G*

froggy< Dreami: Yes, always heard, and the answers often are for me to discover. That's the mystery of Faith to me ... to pray with a grateful heart and to ask for nothing more than guidance.

Dreami< always? *S* (((froggy)))

froggy< I cannot explain Faith except to say that I know my prayers, if whispered from the heart, are answered ... always ...

Dreami< *VBS* @ froggy ... understood. *S*

guitarist< Evaluating the effectiveness of prayers? G-d has the full complement of answers that we do, and much more. I have learned that it can boil down to Yes, No, Wait. Before we can evaluate how effective our prayers are, we need to know what the answer was. We also may need to evaluate our motives, if the answer doesn't satisfy us.

Ishtahota< Sometimes when I pray for something, I find that the prayer starts a new set of lessons that can last for years in order to prepare me to receive that which I prayed for. He He!!!!

LadyV< Ishtahota [smiling] true.

Dreami< *VBS* @ Ishtahota ... thereby, the effectiveness of the prayer can't be measured right away. *S*

greyman< Some prayers are answered right away. Some after many years. Sometimes {apparently} never. Your free will and the free will of the person you are praying for are in the "loop". If the person you are praying for is closed to your prayer, you may find it unanswered. Be careful when praying for someone who is sick. Your thought "you poor sick thing" will be sent, and may make the person center on the illness and not the cure.

Sprinkles< The results are seen, heard, felt. My experience is a comfort that it was through the goodness of prayer and the faith and trust I have in the almighty that he/she is guided in the best outcome for all whom maybe in need of Gods will.

Ishtahota< greyman: I was taught that creative force is unleashed by feeling something already is. Meaning that things are not as we say but as we feel.

Dreami< So, Ishtahota, that means that if one prays for something, but has self-doubt about the prayer coming true, then the thought over-rides the prayer?

Ishtahota< Dreami: Yes, and if we think about how it will or get done or be answered, we also get in the way of creation. In other words, spirit knows the best way to do it and who can benefit from being involved.

Dreami< *VBS* @ Ishtahota ... so prayer as a form of manifestation ... thought making it effective then? *S*

Ishtahota< Dreami: Not thought, but feeling it already is. Smell it, breathe it, taste it, be it.

Dreami< *VBS* @ Ishtahota

greyman< Ishtahota: An interesting notion. Emotions are the "carrier waves" of uncaused cause experiences.

LadyV< greyman: In that regard, spend time in a room filled with women that are full of emotion, and great contentment, and you will feel those "carrier waves" all day long. [smiling] I like the "carrier waves" coined term ...

greyman< LadyV: Yes, overwhelming sometimes. Comes with the territory.

LadyV< greyman [smiling]

DestinyB< Sometimes you just know that your prayer was answered. Sometimes guidance just pops into your head and you know the answer you were seeking. Sometimes the loved one is healed. Sometimes the deepest desire is clearly denied. Sometimes the heartfelt wish is granted. It all depends on what lessons we need to learn at that place and time.

FRAML< DestinyB: You mentioned an interesting point: "Sometimes guidance just pops into your head." That is 'inspiration' and often not recognized as such.

DestinyB< Yes, FRAML, so many answered that it's hard to pick just one!

Ben< FRAML: The effectiveness of prayer can often be seen in our own change of attitude toward another, or our reaction to a type of situation, in ways that are not our own doing.

guitarist< I'm praying that my parents won't die until they get things settled with their lives (including with me). So far they are still alive and able to talk with me. Does this count?

FRAML< guitarist: I think that comes under 'unfinished business'. Things you want to take care of, or know that you can leave undone without any regret.

daCrone< *S* "without any regret" ... beyond words and interwoven with action, this is perhaps a type of constant prayer ...

Ishtahota< FRAML: Yes, I got a good mate and my life to spend on spirit stuff. Retired at 44.

guitarist< Ishtahota: I am very happy for you. I, too, prayed for a mate for many years. Finally, I grew up enough to be worthy of one. "This is my lover, this is my friend, O [sons and] daughters of Jerusalem ... "

Ben< guitarist: Congratulations! (mazel tov!)

LEGS< Being from the Bible belt, I am reminded of the "back page" editorial in Time magazine last year where the individual had moved from the northern part of USA to the Bible Belt and participated on a team with the school there. He said, though his family were not Christians, it gave him a warm feeling to know that the one praying was asking protection from injury for all the players ... made him want to do good ... and incidentally was the only time in his life that he felt really bonded with the team he played with. Yes, I do think prayer before games is advisable ... we also ask for the safety of the observers as they return home.

LEGS< I also think it is ignorant to wait for someone to request prayer. Actually, I pray daily for all with whom I chat here and other places ... as a group ... that they receive the guidance they require for safety and peaceful living, and that their ways is made less difficult.

LEGS< I believe that my prayers in changing jobs over the years have been answered ... at times the only position was up to more than one of us but only one, of course, could stay to fill it ... and I always pray that if it is what would be best for me that I get it, and if I didn't, I knew that God would guide me to a better position. It has always worked out that way. We have to be open to guidance ... and be able to discern whether it is true guidance from on high, or a delinquent discarnate choosing to 'guide' if one will follow.

Ishtahota< greyman: Think about it. Just how much truth comes from man's words compared to man's feelings.

greyman< Ishtahota: Or for that matter: "out of the mouth of babes". *G*

Ishtahota< greyman: AhHo!!!

FRAML< I'm going to post my 3d & final question in a moment.

FRAML< QUESTION # 3: What effect has NOT having a prayer answered (or answered in a way different than you wanted) had on your belief in the deity you follow? And why? Your turn.

DestinyB< I've seen prayer in action when several people are praying for an ill child. Some friends have a daughter who was very sick and she pulled through. When I pray for healing, I pray for the highest good within the will of the Creator.

Ben< FRAML: I have often thanked God for being wise enough NOT to answer my foolish prayers! However, I only understand those cases in retrospect.

Dreami< LOL @ Ben ... me, too. *VBS*

order< FRAML: I have had many prayers answered. Once, when I was out of money and food, when hubby was in service, on a ship, and allotment check had not come ... I remember cooking everything in the house, and finally only a small bag of coconut was left. I put this on the table and watched the children taking a bit of it and running off to play. I had been praying, of course, for several days. That day, a lady I did not know knocked on the door with a basket of veggies from her garden and asked if I would like them. This was one of my answered prayers.

FRAML< order: thank you.

order< Of course, in the next few days, the check came, too ... *S

froggy< When my mother lay dying a tortuous death, I prayed to understand ... why this should happen to a gentle one, why would a loving GOD allow this. And I thought my prayers were not answered! But this prayer was the catalyst of the search for a loving Creator that would ever change the direction of my life for the better.

Dreami< *VBS* @ froggy ... ((((((((hugs)))))))))

LadyV< I think I can answer that one, FRAML. I have a beloved Saint that I spend time with ... in my meditation time. He was not real to me until one day I decided to ask for his help on a matter of concern to me. I knew that he would consult with the family. I was denied the request ... I waited. In a matter of a few weeks, the concern was addressed, and to my surprise it was more than I hoped for ... then I knew that the matter had been considered and I felt nearer to the friend I have in this Saint. I do not doubt now that he shares with me my concerns, and on his side of the fence he is asking for me to be heard. It was very comforting to know this ... and it did cause me to include him more in my daily walk.

LEGS< For a few months after my third child, a two year old son, died in spite of my prayers for his healing and wellness (he was in a coma induced by failed kidneys under the stress of staphylacosis), I turned from God, believing He had failed me. When the final autopsy reports came in saying that my child suffered from an irreversible kidney disease since birth, and that had he not died then, he would have undergone successively more painful bouts with the disease causing terrible pain and suffering for as long as he did live, and a very painful death ... then I could almost accept that it had been much easier for him slipping away in a coma ... and my other two children needed me to be strong for them.

LEGS< At that point, I could wholeheartedly worship God and thank him for the two remaining children and beg His blessings for them, and strength for myself to be the mother I should be.

LEGS< I believe that one of those two children would now be dead had not prayers from many intervened in her behalf. Her death would have been what was predicted, but her living has been a blessing to many.

daCrone< After I spent a lot of rave and limbo time fussing that his/her eye was on the sparrow and was not watching me, I found at length there was an overriding storyline to the events. *S*

guitarist< I don't think I have been challenged sufficiently by non-answers to prayer to tell you. I'm thinking about people who endured the death of many (even millions) of their people who prayed for deliverance from such horror, and got NO for an answer. Many of them left their faith in G-d behind in those places of tragedy (I'm not just thinking of the Holocaust, but of other mass murders before and since). Many also picked theirs up and maintained it. I think a lot depends on what the basis of your faith has been when you get your non- or delayed answer.

LadyV< guitarist: I think that I see your point here, and it is a universal question that you address ... all I can think of to say to you is 'men are cruel; man is kind'

FRAML< guitarist: "Man's Search for Meaning: an introduction to logo therapy" by Viktor Frankl -- great book, and has helped me in my journey. It was part of the philosophy course at St. Joe.

LadyV< I personally feel the book by Viktor Frankl should be put in with every Bible placed in a motel room ...

guitarist< LadyV & FRAML: Yes. The reason I mentioned what I did is because I believe those survivors were really challenged by non-answer to prayer. I, despite all my difficulties, have never been challenged so. Oprah Winfrey had a very interesting interview with Elie Wiesel a few months ago in her magazine.

LadyV< guitarist: Elie Wiesel is my hero along with Mother Teresa ... both have simple answers to complex questions ... sorry that I missed the interview.

DestinyB< Not having a prayer answered or answered in a way different than the desired outcome brings me to a deeper understanding that everyone has a different path to follow and much of what happens is beyond our control. I've developed a deep respect for whatever intelligence guides the Universe. It may not always be what I want, but it is usually for the highest possible good for the masses.

order< FRAML: When prayers are not answered, must ask if the fault is in God or in me ... of course, my conclusion always was the fault was in me ...

Sprinkles< Not having a prayer answered gives me an answer: perhaps that is not the direction or the path the almighty has planned for me. To be open to the direction I am being guided. *S* It has strengthened my belief. For so far, so good. I believe I am given what I can handle and that which I cannot handle is supportive in other ways. *S*

Ben< Here's a small prose poem I wrote a long time ago. "I prayed for a sign, and received one. It was octagonal, and it read STOP."

LadyV< Ben: I bet you were glad, too ... [smiling] lots of wisdom in that comment.

guitarist< *chuckling @ Ben*

daCrone< LOLOL

Dreami< *G* @ Ben. So, God was telling you to seek another path, then? *S*

FRAML< Ben: Is that a hint about this topic? *g*

FRAML< Time is now 11:59 and I'll wrap up shortly.

Ben< FRAML: Not at all. Just a reply to your 3rd question.

order< I'm thinking God does not decide whose prayers to answer and whose not to answer. I think prayer is a spiritual process, a spiritual connection ... sometimes it works on various levels, sometimes it works on all levels.

FRAML< Summary: I've had the chance over the last 4 weeks and more to look at my own belief in prayer while my daughter has been hospitalized. I've come to realize that patience is required, and also that there may be changes going on that are not immediately evident to me. My faith and the faith of my friends and their prayers have supported me and helped my daughter (I don't know how, exactly, but I believe they have). I've also discovered a book that helped me with tonight's questions: "Disappointment with God- three question no one asks aloud" by Philip Yancey.

Dreami< *VBS* @ FRAML ... (((((((hugs))))))))

LEGS< It sometimes takes many years to realize that a prayer during a certain time was answered ... but that we didn't recognize the blessing til later.

Dreami< *S* @ LEGS ... yes, but why is that? *S*

LEGS< Dreami ... perhaps because we are visualizing a different answer and are oblivious to the answer we got ... unaccepting.

Dreami< hmmmm ... (((LEGS)))) that is a good point *S*

FRAML< Thank you all for participating in this series.

LadyV< FRAML: Thank you for taking time with your busy schedule and your concerns with your daughter.

daCrone< and I am glad to hear Sarah is better (((HUGS)))

Dreami< Thank you (((((((((FRAML)))))))) *VBS*

Sprinkles< Thank you, FRAML, for another enlightening seminar. *S*

DestinyB< Someone once said that every time you admire a child, enjoy a sunset, find peace in the forest, you are praying, praising the Almighty for the beauty in living. Prayer can be many different things to each person.

LadyV< DestinyB: That's true ...

FRAML< Earlier someone said that a prayer to cause someone harm would not be appropriate. I agree. To me, that would nearly fit into the category of a 'curse', however I know there is a specific name for that type of prayer, but I can't remember it. Does anyone know it?

Dreami< Afraid not, FRAML.

LEGS< A prayer for retribution? For good judgment in a jury trial, that would result in a death penalty ... that would be considered harm? I often pray that juries are safe from tampering ... safe from indecision ... and that their judgment be what is deserved/needed ...

tracey< just to add my two cents ... prayer for retribution? don't think so ... to ask for retribution is to ask for the other person to suffer ... does not go with prayer ... two different things there darlin' ... IMHO ... blessed be, babes ... sleep well in the arms of your own truth ... *S*

Ben< FRAML: Were you thinking of an anathema, to anathematize? If so, that is a Greek word meaning a curse, to curse.

FRAML< Ben: Yes, that sounds right.

Ishtahota< My life and history with prayer has been more like LEGS experience. I might not have liked what I got at the time, but If I got my ego out of the way and my arrogance and did some real growing, in time I was pleased with what spirit gave me as an answer to my prayers.

guitarist< DestinyB: I still take a physical inventory now and then and thank G-d that all my necessary parts are still intact. :)

DestinyB< I know what you mean, guitarist. I once prayed for a vacation, but not very far away because money was tight. I also prayed that my family appreciate me more. The answer to my prayers was unexpected: I fell & broke a bone in my foot. Since I couldn't walk, my family had to take up the slack & do my work ... cooking, shopping, cleaning, washing clothes for them & me. I couldn't walk for 2 months, so they had to wait on me. I got my "vacation" and a newfound respect for the contribution I made to the family. I also gained some insights on what handicapped people live through every day. My "handicap" was temporary, but I learned so much. It also gave me time to re-evaluate my life & make some changes.

FRAML< For those who joined late: My daughter is doing better and may be released from the hospital at the end of this next week, if the improvement continues. After release there is going to be an extended rehabilitation period. Thank you all for your prayers, concerns and support.

DestinyB< Glad to hear that your daughter is doing better, FRAML. Our prayers are with you both.

FRAML< This is about the time that LEGS usually asks "What's the topic for next week?" The answer is: Ishtahota will lead the 1st of 2 sessions on the topic of "Duality."

Ishtahota< And if you are going to attend the next two sessions, look in this room for some postings from me. There is some stuff you need to read and think about before the sessions.

FRAML< Ishtahota: Will do, I saw one earlier this week.

guitarist< Ishtahota, I can hardly wait!

Ishtahota< guitarist: Thanks

FRAML< It is time for me to head off to St. Sealy's. I need to be up earlier than usual for me on a Sunday.

LEGS< Wow ... talk about serendipity ... or is it just habit observance ... Thanks for the subject/leader/date ... (((FRAML)))

FRAML< LEGS< Naw, just wanted to beat you to it. *WEG*

LEGS< *G* mean FRAML ... *G*

FRAML< Good night to all & remember to count your blessings before you sleep.

Ishtahota< FRAML: There will be two or three things posted. I do not know if you will want to copy it for your records of classes.

FRAML< Ishtahota: Keep them and put them at the beginning of the transcript. I'll try to collect them during the week, but I'm not going to be online much. I've several meetings with my daughter's doctors and also I'm heading up our church's homeless shelter committee, and this is our week to house & feed 25 folks at our church. Which is another reason I'm glad you volunteered for next week. *VBS*

Ishtahota< FRAML: Will do.

froggy< This one must be hoppin' too ... Though not a regular at these seminars, it was an honor to be able to share ... *S* Blessings to each of you ...

tracey< ***froggy*** blessed be little lily pad hopper ... love float with you darlin ... *S*

LEGS< {{{{{froggy}}}} welcome back anytime, dear heart!!!!!

Ben< FRAML & ALL: Good session. I got here about 11:25. Since then I have been reading your posts and liking what I read and smiling.

FRAML< Ben: Thank you.

Dreami< pleasant dreams to you (((FRAML))) // *VBS* @ Ben. // ((((((((tracey)))))))) how are you?*S*

DestinyB< Goodnight Everyone who is leaving! Announcement for my friends; I got married last month! We eloped!

guitarist< !!!Congratulations, congratulations, DestinyB!!!

Dreami< congratulations, DestinyB!!!!! (((hugs))))

LEGS< How wonderful, DestinyB!!!!! Congrats and best wishes ...

tracey< (((Dreami))) fine love ... just hanging out ... seeing if I can get it right ... *S* (((Destiny))) Congrats love ... *S* many happy days be yours babe!

Dreami< (((tracey))) LOL ... you always get it right dear one!!! *VBS*

tracey< Dreami ... *S* where. and we all get it right love ... just the way our life folds out as to when.*S* right now I would not say I am on the path ... but the prayer thingy ... that one I know for sure ... *S* night precious ... love to you babe! (((HUGS))) to you all ... *S* wrap well in the arms of your own truth ... *S*

Dreami< *VBS* @ tracey ((((((hugs)))))))

FRAML< *****POOOOOF*****

guitarist< Ishtahota, integrity (and credibility) have been two of my most consuming issues. I think of them daily. I don't like what has happened to credibility lately, because I see that people think of it as a substitute for truth (if a person's credible, s/he must be truthful); whereas I think one earns credibility by being truthful.

Ishtahota< guitarist: No substitute for truth.

guitarist< Amen, Ishtahota.

LEGS< Well-said on credibility being earned by truthfulness, guitarist ... good thinking ...

alremkin< To me prayer is a focused type of meditation where rather than only communing with higher spirits/realties, I'm actually asking for something. My understanding of the probability of receiving what I pray for is dependant on my state of being or closeness to God. Yet I believe it's possible to receive what we need without formal prayer when we are in tune with IAM.

LEGS< alremkin: When we strive to live in the path that will lead closer to God ... to walk as He would in our circumstance ... I think that our Higher Good is always being nourished by Him.

alremkin< LEGS: Agreed. The challenge seems to be for us to nourish our internal connection to IAM in spite of the negative influences we face.

FRAML< /topic Open Discussion

Ishtahota< Poofed!!

LEGS< ((((((Ishtahota)))))) O'Siyo

guitarist< Getting ready to say goodnight to all ...

LEGS< Goodnite to all who are leaving now ... was hoping to see Jello tonite ... miss that one when absent ...

Ben< ALL: Good night and great morning. Peace and blessings to each of you. *poof*

Dreami< Peace and light to you (((Ben))) // Goodnight (((guitarist)))

guitarist< Good night, everyone ... peace, joy, health, blessing, and truth are with us all. And may we all know it when G-d gives an answer to prayer, whether we understand or not.

DestinyB< Goodnight Everyone! Sweet Dreams!

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