Session 1
Sat 03 Feb 2001
Host: Ishtahota

Ishtahota< /topic Pre-Seminar Post on Duality

Duality and Direct Conflict. My, what a world we create for our children to live in! And then we sit back and have the gall to ask why all the killing and guns, the hatred and lies, the lack of morals and responsibility. I look around. I see parents putting on their mask of confusion and hiding in their easy chairs. When we as parents, grandparents, and ancestors of a world do not want to take responsibility for our actions and walk our talk out of our need for self-serving, we create direct conflict for our children to live in. When we do this we give our children three choices: one is to live in duality so they can accept the direct conflict; two is to revolt; three is to self-destruct.

People need to understand some things about children and the world we live in. As children we learn things that direct how we live our adult lives. The hardest thing we ever learn is language, and we learn almost all of that before we turn 7 years old. Children who have not learned a language before their teens for one odd reason or another do not have the ability to master language as easily. This should show us what a sponge a child's mind and spirit can be at an early age. This should show us all of the subtle things a child can learn. We need to look at some of the things we teach our children through just being an example for them.

From the very beginning of their lives, we tell our children about Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny, and the Tooth Fairy. We swear up and down to our children that these things are real, until they finally see for themselves that they are not real. We tell our children not to make up stories or lie to others, but what do we show them through our example? We sit in our churches and tell our children it is wrong to kill another person, and that child looks to the person in uniform sitting on the other side of him, who he knows is being trained to kill other people in wars. And in these same churches we are taught that all men are created equal. Keep in mind that women are not even mentioned in this statement. Then the next day we send our children to school and tell them that they can not play with certain other children because they are another color or their parents do not have the same beliefs or enough money or what ever. And the parents sit at home in their easy chairs wondering why we have gangs. And we wonder why our children rebel against us.

As children we are taught in our schools that as Americans we have religious freedom in this country. And in those same schools we learn of the American Indians who were banned from practicing their religion. Our churches taught us the importance of the family and keeping it together while some of those same churches with the help of the government took the children of Native American families from their families and forced other beliefs on them. And what about our a country of religious freedom burning witches? We teach our children in school that this country gives justice for all. Our children are not stupid, what they see is justice for the poor and the rich buying their way out of troubles. We as parents need to be careful about what we teach our children.

I have seen throughout my life that parents and elders create exceptions and gray areas when they do not want to be responsible for their actions or when they would otherwise have to compromise for the greater good of the whole and take a personal loss. All of this and more are the essence of how we do not walk our talk. This is what causes the direct conflict in the minds of our children. We are all born whole and in innocence. When innocence is lost we have to split our nature, and in reality we start to function in the everyday world from one side of our brain or the other. A child sees no sex in its playmates. A child sees no color in its playmates. A child knows not about wealth or being poor. Children do not know fear. All of these things that a child learns from us are an illusion and that creates conflict, so for the child to live in this world it has to be born into duality.

When the child rebels against the conflict and does not choose to live in duality, it can take several different paths. The child can self-medicate and get lost in addictions. Or the child can be strong in its vision and fight to make change in this world of ours, but a lot of our children cannot see their vision, so they just fight anyone and anything in a blind rage. We are a global village and our children learn from all of us.

What do we as parents do to our children when we do not want to be responsible for what we have taught them? Well for the most part we put them in prison and call it rehabilitation. And all that is doing is beating the spirit out of humans and making them forget what is left of their vision and forcing them to conform to our reality of the world. One of the other things we do for our children is that we send them to so-called professionals in the medical field for medication and behavioral modification so they can conform to a world of illusion we have created for them. We need to ask serious questions about our professionals. Have they done their personal healing work? What are the children of the mental health doctors like? Do we have alcoholic police officers handing out DUI's to private citizens? And how many of our politicians serve the greater good of the people? We have had sick people trying to help heal sick people for thousands of years now. What do you see when you look out at the world?

We see with two eyes, we hear with two ears, we also have a brain that at this time works as two halves that are split. One half of our brain is responsible for one half of our body, and the other half for the other half. We have two distinct halves even in our consciousness, one being our awakened state and the other being the sub-conscious or our dreaming mind. As children we are born whole, but as we grow up in the world of duality, we to learn to live in this manner also. This is something that we are taught, and if we wish to leave this state of consciousness called duality, we must first see it for what it is and how it rules our lives.

There are some clues for us in The Gospel of Thomas which is not in the bible we read today. Thomas 22 Jesus saw some babies nursing. He said to his followers, "These nursing babies are like those who enter the Kingdom." Jesus said to them, "When you make the two into one, and when you make the inner like the outer and the outer like the inner, and the upper like the lower, and when you make the male and the female into a single one, so the male will not be male nor the female not be female, when you make eyes in place of an eye, a hand in place of a hand, a foot in place of a foot, an image in place of an image, then you will inter the kingdom." And in Thomas 48 Jesus said, "If two make peace with each other in a single house, they will say to the mountain move from here and it will move." The first part of Thomas 3 Jesus says, " The kingdom of heaven is in you and it is around you." These statements really verify what I have come to believe is very important for us to learn and understand so that we can become whole and awake beings.

The gospel of Thomas (The hidden sayings of Jesus) is a book that I came across that confirms what I have found. Marvin Mayer wrote the book. In this book Jesus said that the Pharisees have the keys of knowledge but have kept them hidden and did not use them. (Thomas 39) And in Thomas 48 Jesus said "If two make peace with each other in a single house, they will say to the mountain move from here and it will move." Near the end of Thomas 61 Jesus says, "I am the one who comes from what is whole. I was given from the things of my father. For this reason I say if one is whole, one will be filled with light, but if one is divided, one will be filled with darkness." And in Thomas 22 Jesus saw some babies nursing. He said to his followers, "These nursing babies are like those who enter the Kingdom." They said to him, "Then shall we enter the kingdom as babies?" Jesus said to them, "When you make the two into one, and when you make the inner like the outer and the outer like the inner, and the upper like the lower, and when you make the male and the female into a single one, so the male will not be male nor the female not be female, when you make eyes in place of an eye, a hand in place of a hand, a foot in place of a foot, an image in place of an image, then you will inter the kingdom."

The Egyptians had the Mystery schools and still do. They taught the left and the right eye of Horus. The left and the right eye of Horus are the study of how the left and right brain relate to the world. One side is male and the other side is female. When people work with the Kundalini, they work with two energies, one male and one female. It is represented by two snakes climbing a poll and coming together at the top. All of these things are the same thing; they are instructions on how to end duality. To see with one eye and to hear with one ear. It is the instruction on how to bond both halves of the brain so we can awaken. Or for some so we can enter the kingdom of heaven. The first part of Thomas 3 Jesus says. "The kingdom of heaven is in you and it is around you." This to me says that the kingdom of heaven is a state of consciousness and not really a place far removed from us. It also says that the work we have to do is to be done now and not later. --Greyeyes

Ally6< Very true and beautiful. What or who is Ishtahota?

LEGS< Ally6: Come to tonite's seminar here in Amazon, and join in the discussions ... welcome.

Ishtahota< Ego Evil and the Dark Side Evil for the most part and for most of us is an escape goat. It is a term we use when we want to place blame outside of us and away from us. People do not want to look at themselves and see that they need to do personal work. For some it is easier to go to someone else for forgiveness of sin and gilt, and let it go at that. Others blame all other people around them for where they are in their lives. Or they blame the society we live in. When a teacher came along to the people of the earth 2000 years ago he told the people to follow him and all of their sin and guilt would be forgiven. He also said one had to repent. To the people of 2000 years ago, to follow someone meant to do as they did to achieve a goal. A teacher or a leader lead by example. To repent means to turn away from. And to turn away from an old way of life takes a lot of work. It takes an inward journey to work through hatred resentments and fears. It takes looking at ones own dark side and taking responsibility for ones actions and ones life. Mans ego through time has taken that message and twisted it to the point where man is no longer responsible. And the fruits of that belief are the world out of control that we live in today. The fruits of that twisted belief are our children going postal in our schools and on our streets. Spirit or God will guide us and empower us to change this world, but we have to do the work and that work starts with self. It starts with an inward journey to know the self. It starts with taking responsibility for our actions and beliefs. If what we do and believe does not work or change the world for the better, then we must change our path.

Our ego in itself is not good or bad. What place it takes in our life can be destructive or creative, but the responsibility for our ego is on our shoulders. Its function is to keep the body alive and it can act on its own without us having to think. It learns things through repetition. It is our basic animal instinct. An ego that is not tempered and balanced with a spirit mind is a destructive ego. Can the destructive side of the ego be a good thing? I think so. Let's take a look at the Love and Light brigade. People who have all they need to live a good life will become complacent and stagnant. Enjoying and living the good life without much personal work going on. The sub-conscious in this type of life will look for dramas to go through with other people, and the ego, which is out of place, will then show its true colors. The ego out of place may not be a good thing, but it does serve to knock us on our ass and get us moving again when we are not doing our personal work. Love and light is a good thing, but it can be a bad thing if we use it as just another excuse like we have done with Christianity. We need to know that if there is a dark side that it is in us and not outside of us. We also need to know that it is very deceptive and it is always looking for a new way to dress up and present to us ways that do not work.

Another thing we need to look at is that if we are fighting with other people we do not have the time to do our personal work. Fighting can be us going places and trying to convince others that our way or our belief is the only way. It is just another trap of the ego or the dark side that is inside of us. Our dramas that we play out in the world around us are only reflections of the division that is in us that we need to look at and heal up. Our ego's has its ways and Spirit or God has its ways. We have been using the ways of the Earth or the ego for thousands of years and it has not worked. --Ishtahota

LEGS< Ishtahota explained to me the "going postal" comment as "taking guns to school and killing ... like the Postal workers have done at their job in the past."

Ishtahota< LEGS: It is people going crazy and killing for no reason.

LEGS< Going crazy? How do you mean? What causes that to happen?

Ishtahota< As children we are born in innocence, we see no difference in each other. Things for us are either right or they are wrong. Things are true or they are not. For children there are no gray areas. As children we accept each other for who and what we are. People who are in duality go into the world to areas of conflict and they choose a side to be on. People who are making a conscious effort to do their personal healing work are less likely to enter into these duality dramas. If we do not take the time to heal we inter into dramas. And anytime we do not settle our inner conflict through our dramas, we enter into larger and larger dramas. What does not end with two spouses, lovers or friends will spread to two families, then to two cities, then to two states and on till it is between two countries. It is our nature to argue about who is right and who is wrong instead of being responsible and doing our healing work. We sit and wait for the world's ills to be healed, never realizing that it all starts with self first. We are born with a sense of how we should act in the world and how we should treat others. This is our conscious, it is our honor code for living. When we go against this we then have inner conflict. When we do not settle the inner conflict, make amends to those we hurt, and walk our talk, we have to enter into duality to live with ourselves. Democrats and Republicans, Communism and Democracy, War of the north and south, North and South Vietnam -- these are just some of the greater dramas we play out in our world.

daCrone< (((friends all))) I looked up and there were more *S*

greyman< Namaste dear ones

Ishtahota< I'm sorry for such long a post before this seminar, people, Duality is something that is hard for us to understand, because we are all in it. The best someone like me can do is show you the causes of it and the symptoms and hope that at sometime in your life it will all click into place and you will see it.

suitESPirit< Greetings to all ~~~

greyman< duality du.al.i.ty (d-l-t, dy-) n. The quality or character of being twofold; dichotomy. duality \Du"al"i*ty\, n. [L. dualitas: cf. F. dualit['e].] The quality or condition of being two or twofold; dual character or usage. Source: Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary, © 1996, 1998 MICRA, Inc.

guitarist< Good evening/Shalom/AhHo/O'siyo/Buenas noches/etc., everyone!

LadyV< Hello ... slow server here ... might lose it ...

Yopo< *S* Hello ALL

Star12< Greetings ... going back to read the post.

Ishtahota< SEMINAR CONCEPT --- These seminars are open to anyone who wants to attend. Each seminar will explore a stated topic. Each meeting will be a one hour guided discussion, followed by unguided discussion of the topic. There will be no fees or other charges, no grading system, and no predetermined "school solution." Selected portions of the meeting transcripts will be posted on this site -- but not if they contain a statement such as "off the record".

Ishtahota< SEMINAR GROUND RULES --- Courtesy is expected. Instead of attacking what others believe, say what you believe -- or politely ask others to explain what they post. Please keep your posts reasonably brief, and please don't get into off-topic side conversations. Please use the private message function to send greetings to new arrivals and to "whisper" in class once it starts. That way the text is easier for everyone to follow, and it is easier for me to clean up the transcript afterward.

greyman< Server nominal.

Ishtahota< AhHo, everyone.

CalicoHawk< AhHo, Ishtahota!

daCrone< Greetings ALL

MarriAna< Namaste****

Ishtahota< Question #1 -- Where have you seen a country do something to a people or persons that is in direct conflict with that countries beliefs or Ideals?

greyman< Germany, Iraq, Iran, Africa, U.S.S.R., just to name a few.

suitESPirit< How about the US of A ???

greyman< suitESPirit: Sometimes it is hard to confess one's own sin(s).

guitarist< I think I'd like to start with my very own beloved US of A, regarding people of African descent and Native Americans/Indians/First People. Not to forget anyone else, but this is where it started here.

MarriAna< Huh? Well, how does one know what belief a country has? I'd think the collective belief of a country is made up of the individual belief-systems of the people who live in it, and not of what they go along with or "let happen" (no choice, or no voiced choice) officially.

guitarist< MarriAna: I mentioned the USA first because 1) the principle is to deal with "self" first and 2) the U.S. Declaration of Independence, Constitution and Bill of Rights spell out the country's core beliefs. I think this is what Ishtahota is getting at ... am I right?

MarriAna< Does that imply a spiritual collective belief system works like democracy, as in, what most believe in is the "official" belief of the collective?

CalicoHawk< Ishtahota: I would say trying to narrow it down to one area would be difficult. Planet Earth seems to have done this through the ages.

Yopo< Call me a cynic, but my answer to that would be "almost everywhere". Even here, where we profess high and lofty ideas about justice and equality. Some don't seem to get it.

Ishtahota< State the conflict!

greyman< Generic Human condition.

CalicoHawk< Ishtahota: The age-old conflict of Light and dark.

Ishtahota< My example would be that in the U.S., we say we have religious freedom. And yet the beliefs of the native Americans was crushed. Not to mention the burning witches. And what for? Personal gain.

aikiwalk< What action has been taken on behalf of a country by an individual or group or *the country itself* that is in conflict with the ideals of that country -- is that the question? Sorry for the disconnect.

daCrone< First into my mind: I fell from innocence when I saw it in the U.S. Social Security system ... my experience was to see an organization that did not care about the individuals it was, I thought, supposed to serve.

LEGS< Social Security? This lost me, daCrone ... ?

daCrone< LEGS: Probably off here ... this is just what popped up first. We ran into doctors who filed false reports, and individuals who were abusive when my husband was drooling and unable to sit up without a prop.

Ishtahota< LEGS: Social Security is supposed to help us survive when we are older. In reality it will just barely keep you alive. And if you have to get disability, you need a lawyer. How many times have the government gutted those funds instead of increasing payments?

CalicoHawk< There seems to be this same conflict of "progress" since time began. It was not just with the Nation, but with all.

selki< I think it is not the country. I think it is the government of the country. The people are the government in the USA; therefore, the people are the cause of the conflict of ideals, interests, unfair practices, prejudices ... etc.

MarriAna< The people are the government? Well, dear me, all I see is our (Austria) governments trying to fool the masses into voting for them, in the most degrading (insulting to intelligence) and silly ways!

selki< MarriAna: I'm talking about the USA. The constitution begins, "We the People" ... the people formed the government, Oh never mind ...

MarriAna< Right now this silly poster is up everywhere, asking one to "take revenge" and vote for ___, and asking you whether you're a sissy or not! I call that mass-manipulation, of a very low vibe!

aikiwalk< Until we can see that each of us is distinct, yet part of the whole as light is part of dark, dark is part of light, and neither would exist apart from one another, it will be easy to decide that one way is superior than another and is to be promoted to the detriment of other attitudes and beliefs.

CalicoHawk< aikiwalk: Would that be "majority rules"?

aikiwalk< CalicoHawk: Not majority rules, but a recognition of the status quo, and where it needs to head to change ... and in that, often a beginning to change the status quo if there are others who also are able to see the conflict and where the healing is needed in individuals' lives and the nation/communities lives.

woodman1< Personally, ah think Jefferson and Paine would be absolutely appalled.

Ishtahota< Question #2 -- Where do you see a conflict or a drama that has gone on and on? And how could your thinking be changed to settle this conflict?

woodman1< Hmmm ... Afghanistan, Middle East, Africa, these places come to mind.

guitarist< Conflict: "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights; that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness; that to secure these rights, governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed ... " versus slavery of Africans, tearing apart Native nations and killing millions of them ... the list could go on. Even in the present day, our government is found to be supporting dictatorships (which do not operate from the consent of the governed whatsoever).

Ishtahota< guitarist: Thank you for that post.

greyman< Ishtahota: Regrettably, Native Americans were crushed in the name of progress. We may all face the boot heels of progress sooner or later. My great great ( ... great) Grandfather was a Captain during the Revolution against England. He is buried near two Native Americans. Many stories of courage and personal sacrifice and honor.

aikiwalk< Only when one has encountered the dark and the light within oneself can you begin to see that pattern outside of oneself, maybe, and that is hard work to do, and harder to recognize in your self, your town, country, than in others and other countries.

LadyV< Not sure here, but what causes one man to move another over, and inch by inch take away what is his? Regardless of who or what he is culturally or otherwise? Is it territory? Is it hate? ... what is it?

woodman1< LadyV: The killer ape lives. Ah sees him in the mirror every morning, and it ain't a purty sight! *G* And every mornin' ah tells him he can't dictate mah behavior. *G*

LEGS< LadyV: It started way back with Cain and Abel, you know ...

MarriAna< Hmm, well, here it's obviously the "social politics" saying on one hand be nice to everybody and support the weak, and human rights and blahblah, on the other hand that doesn't really seem to apply for non-Austrians who come into the country.

CalicoHawk< There is a Light and a dark in each of us. To move the ego, the dark, aside and allow Spirit to rule over our own lives is of the utmost importance. This alone will settle the eternal conflicts of man versus man.

Ishtahota< I like what Calico Hawk just posted.

LadyV< Agree CalicoHawk has the hope in her statement.

Yopo< It is self-assertion, without respect for other selves. Individually and collectively. Either way, you wind up with conflict.

PeterR< Battle not with monsters, for the monsters become you. Gaze into the abyss, for the abyss is you. --Nietzche.

woodman1< PeterR: Nice post by one of mah favorite people ...

Ishtahota< Or how could anyone else's thinking be changed to settle the conflict?

greyman< Ishtahota: Not until pain threshold goes above what is tolerated.

LadyV< greyman: Good point ... when the people say Enough!

guitarist< Something that I call "the remnants of slavery" are still being perpetrated on African-descended people here. They may not be slaves anymore, but many are denied many of the privileges of their freedom, such as being able to live where they choose instead of being forced to live in "black neighborhoods" that are poor and dilapidated because banks won't give them loans to fix housing. I could expend a lot of energy talking about this. But, thanks be to G-d, I have met a number of them who are fulfilling the promise of their intelligence and patience.

suitESPirit< guitarist: I agree with you ...

greyman< guitarist: Respectfully submitted, not all. I work with folks who grew up in the "projects" and are now "Republican Level" citizens. *g* The single lady who bought my last house got an HFC loan with a bad credit rating because she had three children and worked for the Marion Barry administration. Yes, there are problems; "social engineering" is not a cure-all. I like what George Bush is doing about it.

CalicoHawk< Ishtahota: I see the inside and realize the outside. It is the outside in conflict if the inside is unstable.

PeterR< God made man in his image, and man returned the favor.

woodman1< All: I mean, ya make good choices and bad choices, right? You have the option to do either as long as you're alive.

LEGS< woodman1: That is the crux of the matter ... Choices.

woodman1< HIYA, LEGS! ***HUGS*** Yeah, that's why ah said it. *G*

CalicoHawk< woodman1: What choices would be available to you if you saw through the eyes of the All That Is?

woodman1< CalicoHawk: Display unconditional love. Unfortunately for all concerned, ah can't always do that. I am weak at times ... not developed fully ...

CalicoHawk< woodman1: Take a solemn walk through the woods and feel the One's presence. Listen, enjoy, rejoice in the Creation. This is what Mother Earth is about. Now look inside and find your Higher Self. There you will find the Love of God, and it is unconditional.

woodman1< CalicoHawk: I find unconditional love in lots of places, from people to animals. I know my soul is of God, and that it loves unconditionally. . . the trick is to let it.

MarriAna< Anyway, I think as long as the dark aspects of most people are on the loose and not integrated properly, the dramas of duality will continue, at least on the earth-reality that's headed for the comet. **sigh**

guitarist< And people perpetuate this by ignoring each other on the street. (An African-American friend of mine once told me that the worst thing one can do is simply walk past and not say hello, not acknowledge their existence.). I made up my mind then and there that I would be conscious about that issue.

LEGS< guitarist: I get some cold stares from my hello's, but I grew up in a small town, and everyone greets everyone. Now I am in an "integrated" city ... where outwardly there is cooperation, but inwardly there is so much distrust and fear of the other races ... no matter which race it is.

guitarist< LEGS: I get some cold stares, too. But I don't expect everyone to trust me, as I don't trust everyone I meet, either. The main thing is to watch out for those angels in disguise. They could be anybody. I believe that we miss angels if we're not open to the possibilities. *s* Here's an instance: I was in a restaurant with my co-worker (a Black woman, not the same one I mentioned earlier) about a year ago, and the owner of the restaurant said hello to me and didn't even look at her. I said nothing. That was bad of me,

Ishtahota< Some of you have caught on to the point I was trying to make here. And that is: as it is outside, so it is inside.

daCrone< Yes, Ishtahota ... as above, so below ... as without, so within.

MarriAna< Yeah, what's outside is on the inside, but now realities are already separating, so what happens? You can choose which "outside" reality you want to co-create, and that's what most people don't realize. There's a choice to make, and they keep on limiting themselves to the "old" reality. **imho**

daCrone< The point of center is everywhere ... the out is the in ...

selki< May I say something? The big insurance companies, who have schemed to reduce workers comp benefits almost 50% in the last ten years, are trying to take away the last right we have in a workers comp benefit dispute -- our access to an attorney. If the insurers get their way, they can deny our benefits and we won't even be able to take them to court to get our benefits back. They are trying to pass a law that would make the injured worker pay attorney fees they wouldn't have had to pay in the first place if the insurer had done what was right,,

selki< Without an attorney, the injured workers can't force the insurance company to pay the benefits they are owed by law. I had to go to court 2 times for this, because they did not want to pay my hospital bills, and some of it was intensive care. The Insurance companies don't want a penalty if they deny lawful benefits. If there's no penalty, how many benefits do you think they will deny? There is no talk of increasing benefits, only of restricting access to the meager benefits that are left. What is a person who has a family to support supposed to do if they become disabled in an on the job accident?

LEGS< selki: I know how the disability lawyers work, unfortunately, since my daughter had to have help getting her disability. They gave her case the once-over ... determining what her previous wage was and the possible income she could be granted, then set a flat rate of an improbably high amount as their fee, with an "Or" alternative in pay for them of receiving "half" of her first check ... which she fell for. They then delayed the proceedings until there was more due them as half of the first check of reciprocal pay to be paid her than the flat rate would have been ... taking three years to get her disability allowed.

Ishtahota< Question #3 -- Where do you see yourself not acting or living what you say you believe?

LEGS< The government question is not all there is to duality ... and the duality we were to address, I thought, is the duality in our self.

Ishtahota< LEGS: Was Question 3 on time for you or what? *S*

greyman< Ishtahota: Good question! Yes! One situation comes to mind: If I were captured during war, I would deceive my enemy and try to escape to the best of my ability. That is the only case I know of where the "Ends justify the means".

Ishtahota< greyman: In that case, I think that is a good use for the ego -- to preserve your body. Nature does the same thing. Have you ever seen the little cat that has big eyes painted on the back of its ears?

greyman< Ishtahota: If not the Ego, the Id. *G* "Have you ever seen the little cat that has big eyes painted on the back of its ears?" No, but I have seen Chimps use deception in the laboratory. Sometimes even the scientists. *G*.

MarriAna< Well, where there's fear in the way. That's why I'm cleansing myself, and even the acts that are done out of fear serve to show me the dark spots so that I can cleanse them.

Ishtahota< MarriAna: Describe a fear. What can it be?

MarriAna< Fear can "hide" in >everything<, but can be detected and released. Where it is depends on the lesson one has to learn, yes ?

Ishtahota< MarriAna: What about the fear of not having enough? (greed) What about the fear of not being able to obtain what someone else has? (envy) And so on.

CalicoHawk< Or the fear of not being accepted.

MarriAna< What about those, Ishtahota? Fear of not having enough can only occur when you haven't surrendered to your higher Self and mission, likewise envy.

LEGS< MarriAna: Welcome to this discussion ... you seem to be understanding the goal better than some of us (including me).

snowflakenet< Greetings, this is my first time to chat. Non-duality consciousness has recently gotten my attention. Listen to the words of John Lennon in his song "Imagine". There is no country, no heaven, no hell. We all live as one is Unity. Remembering myself as part as the One Spirit, in love, is my goal.

woodman1< snowflakenet: Welcome. Great song, by the way ...

CalicoHawk< Ishtahota: In times of stress, I feel the call to anger. But at that point, Hawk of Many Colors brings the dis-ease to Light. And I am again sane.

woodman1< As I've gotten older, I've found that anger frequently grabs me for the wrong reasons. Either my facts are wrong, or it's an inappropriate response.

MarriAna< imho, anger should not "grab" one at all, since there's fear underneath indicating a belief in the lack of one's power ... so don't let it grab you, be aware of what is really going on, watch it and find out and release that pattern.

LEGS< Unconditional love is difficult when one considers that they must include lawyers along with everyone else in that love ... *g*

snowflakenet< Lawyers are included when we "dance the dream awake." We have all come into this life with agreements with others who challenge us to remember who we are.

woodman1< LEGS: Yeah, lawyers, fundamentalists, right-wingers ... *G*

CalicoHawk< And left-wingers.

guitarist< woodman1 & LEGS: And some radical left-wingers, too! *s*

woodman1< guitarist: Yeah, dem too. But ya see, they're ALL holy too! Some of 'em just don't see the light, that's all.

guitarist< Yes, I agree, woodman1 ... every one of us starts with the spark of G-d. The question is what we do with that later.

woodman1< guitarist: We learn to hate, m'friend. We get hurt over and over and over, and it blinds us to the light if we let it.

greyman< woodman1: Sad but true.

MarriAna< "unconditional love" is not "love", it is just acknowledging one's own and the other's I Am presence.

woodman1< MarriAna: How, if you love unconditionally, can you say that it's not love? Hmmm?

MarriAna< woodman1: Easily. I just step up to you and say it. **G**

woodman1< MarriAna: Ah just think that unconditional love implies love as an integral part of it's makeup, that's all. *G*

Yopo< I am unsure how I could understand the world without duality. All seems to exist as a tension between opposites.

LEGS< Yopo: I'm with you ... duality seems to me, with our human actions, as the wind is to the changing patterns of climate ... the "mover" for humanity. We act and react in harmony with the aspect of duality that most seems to draw us at that moment.

Yopo< LEGS: With me, I don't think the problem is "duality". The problem is "judgment". I don't just discern and drop stuff into categories. I form OPINIONS. This damn opinion-forming thing in my brain. Then I react emotionally to the opinions I've formed. The result is static, and that keeps me from seeing clearly.

LEGS< Yopo: We tend to judge a person's situation from our own perspective of what their situation is, and what we would do or how we would react if it were us in that perceived situation. Then we wonder why our advice to them falls on deaf ears. It often has no context to what they are actually feeling is their true situation ... and thus is not help for them ... so we are bound to differ on what duality means or is, because of our different perspectives ... our training ... our rearing.

CalicoHawk< Well said, LEGS.

Yopo< LEGS: Maybe that's why monks go into isolation to contemplate and meditate. Remove yourself from others, and you reduce the static that comes from constantly rendering judgment on them?

Ishtahota< Lets see how to settle a conflict here and now by changing how we think. Evolution and creationism.

woodman1< Ishtahota: Uh Oh. . . .

Ishtahota< Who wants to make God in his image? Are some so arrogant that they think God's day is only 24 hours long? Could not God's day be one million of our years? And who is to say God is limited by time in the first place? Could not evolution be a tool of God's?

Star12< So Carl Sagan used to say, Ishtahota.

woodman1< Ishtahota: Ah am quite opinionated on that subject. Ah have no use for creationists ... not being a christian, ya understand, and being a fan of science for many years now.

Ishtahota< woodman1: Feel better now after seeing my post?

woodman1< Ishtahota: I am not a strict evolutionist; i.e., I think there's a God who's had a hand in this world because the life forms that have existed on it have souls, which are God's cells. The creationists would have us rewrite virtually all of scientific theory to match the bible, and ah have some real problems with that. For instance, ah likes to think of physics as being the "hands" of God ... the way God gets things done ... or, more accurately, if there's a plan for this universe made by God, God used physics to make it happen.

Ishtahota< (((woodman1))) And maybe even a few ET'S (could be).

woodman1< Ishtahota: YOU feel better after seeing my post? *G* Yeah, your post did make me feel better!

MarriAna< Ishtahota: Huh? You lost me back there. I don't plan on making a male god (or any other god or goddess) in my image.

LEGS< Figuratively speaking, MarriAna, so that the God you worship is the God you make up yourself ... "in your image" ... so much easier to obey your own desires and claim it is God within that you are following. NOT, btw, what I believe of God.

Ishtahota< MarriAna: Or hers, dear. To put God or Goddess under our limitations.

MarriAna< Ishtahota: Well I have no such urge.

Ishtahota< MarriAna: Some do have that urge. Some want you to worship their image of God.

MarriAna< Ishtahota: Well, yes, I'm aware of that. **sigh** ... so ?

CalicoHawk< If there is a belief in the All That Is, Ishtahota's point is well stated. We are here by design. It is the Will and the Way. As we walk, we also pass. As we pass, we also change. The Way of change is by design.

LEGS< That theory has long been a favorite of mine ... me, the peacemaker, to combine the theories by the Biblical statement that a thousand years is less than a day to God (paraphrased), so that both creationism and evolution work in the hands of God. [For a thousand years in Thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past, or as a watch in the night. Psalm 90:4]

greyman< The issue is perception/perspective. You exist in a vasty unexplained universe full of volume, mass, dimension, and time. To assume complete chaos without direction seems arrogant to say the least.

snowflakenet< greyman: I agree, it is only in this 3rd dimension that we perceive volume, mass, dimension and time. Without these restrictions there is no chaos.

daCrone< An essential tension ... creative and destructive. What marks the line between the good and the bad, the beautiful and the ugly? That line is marked by consciousness, by choice. There is vast space between the fragments of matter, yet there is no separation ...

Yopo< daCrone: Is this "essential tension" not at the center of duality?

daCrone< Most likely it is, Yopo. *S* Sometimes, looking at things that are really big, I cannot see because I am standing so close that my nose touches that which I wish to see ... but, yes ...

MarriAna< I don't "make up" an "image" of the Source. More like, I like to experience it, and see what it's like. For me, it can be whatever it wants to be, fine with me.

Ishtahota< MarriAna: Is it not good that I can except you having the God or Goddess of your understanding?

MarriAna< What's that supposed to mean, Ishtahota ?

Ishtahota< MarriAna: Now you lost me.

MarriAna< Ishtahota: You said isn't it great you are able to accept that others want to worship their images of Source, if I got that right. Well, what do you expect me to do, swoon with joy ?

Ishtahota< MarriAna: I do not know.

MarriAna< Oh well, I know what I have to know about it to do it, just wondered how come you didn't talk about that. *S*

Ishtahota< MarriAna: I can, but that is way down the road. The best I can do in a class like this is scratch the surface. I can show you some things anytime I'm here if you would like. Just run me down when you see me.

woodman1< An interesting side point is that there are a lot of scientific people who hold their religion quite dearly.

Ishtahota< woodman1: Ah See. If I change the way I think, I can see how both can be right.

woodman1< Ishtahota: There's a VAST gulf between the two. Modern scientific estimates are that the earth is somewhere around 4.5 billion years old. The creationists aren't even CLOSE to that number, so they try to use pseudo science to back up their belief system.

greyman< woodman1: Cannot both be true? Maybe? *sheepish smile*

woodman1< greyman: Ah don't see how the two will ever be joined. Too big a breach. Too much time difference between the two systems to be unified into one theory. Ah just don't see how it can happen.

Ishtahota< woodman1: I know. But if you and I can find common ground on things, we can better end our own inner duality.

LEGS< woodman1: The difference lies in Faith. We choose to have faith that the Bible speaks the true Word of God ... the God we perceive as our Father ... and HOW HE MADE THE WORLD means nothing compared to the belief and Faith that it was indeed FORMED FROM NOTHING ... by Him.

woodman1< LEGS: If the creationists have their way, the bible would be the sole source of scientific thought, the final arbiter of all questions, since they hold it to be the verbatim word of God and therefore infallible. I'll fight that till I die.

LEGS< Or, shall I say, it matters not HOW the world was made, we can't go back and change it. What we need to do is learn what our own role here is ... and live to our best discernment a life that is helpful to others and is just in the eyes of God and man. ... Accept what has happened and put your best foot forward into the future. What is past, is past, and what we do now is what will last ... whether we do right or wrong ... remember it cannot be changed after it is done, so it behooves each of us to put that best foot forward. *S*


CalicoHawk< Ishtahota: Thank you for your leadership and guidance.

LadyV< Thank you, Ishtahota.

greyman< Ishtahota: Thank you for your time and efforts.

guitarist< Now that we're done with the formal seminar part, I got an e-mail from Jello today, with a link to an article from the Boston Globe that's germane to this night's subject. (Darn! I forgot to remind her!) It's about several people on both sides of the abortion issue having had talks for the past 5 years. Here's the Web site:


woodman1< Ishtahota: Thanks for having us here!!!! Enjoyed it!

Ishtahota< You all are welcome. Thank you for allowing me to do this seminar. It is an honor for me.

LadyV< daCrone: I wanted to ask you about your statement about duality and the 'essential tension' as well as Yopo. Could you expand a bit on the meaning of the term ... please.

daCrone< Oh, LadyV ... I am in my own world today! LOL I'll try ...

daCrone< I see the circle, and it is a ring, and around that ring opposites can travel. Around that ring, perhaps at some point, they cease to oppose ... then there is no ring but another form. I look at the swirl of the yin as it dances with the yang and, while the seed of each is in the other, they are in balance. Do they push? Do they stand still? Probably both. Theirs is not necessarily a form of animosity, but rather one of compliment. So it is the tension that holds form, whatever that form may be ...

CalicoHawk< woodman1: You have to remember that the Bible is at best a loose translation from many languages. And much of its words were stricken by the Church in an effort to control the masses.

guitarist< CalicoHawk: The main languages being Hebrew and its more prosaic variant (used to be the people's common language), Aramaic. The King James is, I think, 4 language-generations from the original; but some of the more modern Christian versions are 2 or at most 3 generations from it. :)

woodman1< CalicoHawk: Ah'm QUITE aware the bible's a flawed document! Genesis is nothing but a collection of myths.

CalicoHawk< woodman1: Didn't mean to offend.

woodman1< CalicoHawk: Ya didn't! Truly! Did ah sound mad? Ah DOES git worked up over evolution/creation problems. Ah'm not perfect, like ah said. Ah has mah faults and ah gits mah dander riled from time to time. *G*

Ishtahota< woodman1: Ever done a Sweat lodge?

woodman1< Ishtahota: No, but I'd like to.

greyman< woodman1: Perspective. How can both be true? If you buy into the concept of a Deity, it does not take a great inductive leap that there are beings with less development than God and more developed than Man. Maybe, just maybe, we are living in a "living laboratory" that is still developing in an experiment: survival of the fittest, genetic engineering, and -- dare I say it? -- spiritual development. *G*

LEGS< Yes, greyman ... a lab for spiritual development ... perhaps we are just test tube X.

greyman< LEGS: *G*

woodman1< greyman: Accepting, as I do, the probability of life on other planets, I am quite comfortable with the thought of life forms more evolved than mankind. It would scare the beejesus outta me if we were the most evolved life form in the universe! *G*

greyman< woodman1: Yes, they exist in a body and without a body!

woodman1< greyman: Not having met any of the higher evolved beings, ah wouldn't know.

greyman< woodman1: When you do, remember to "test the spirits" as defined in the New Testament. Avoid tempters, and those who would try to trick you. Or for that matter, just remember that the good folks only act when only good can come from it.

woodman1< greyman: If at all possible, ah hope to always do good from now on. Ah had enough of the dark side.

greyman< woodman1: Have experienced both, and prefer light. It's so much more sunnyer, don't you think? *G*

woodman1< greyman: Better for all around, m'friend ...

Yopo< "most evolved" ... Now THERE'S a phrase begging for a definition! (Most likely there isn't one.) *s*

guitarist< Yopo: Here's an attempt: "closest to completion in the natural growth cycle." How do you like that?

Yopo< guitarist: Hmm ... "closest to completion" might also mean "teetering on the brink of extinction." *S* Are you happiest beginning a good book, or turning the final page?

guitarist< Yopo: I'm thinking more in terms of maturity, not extinction. I love reading books: starting and ending them. I get lost in their world the entire time I'm reading them sometimes. Don't get me started. ;)

Yopo< guitarist: Yeah, I can relate. Books are alternate realities.

CalicoHawk< woodman1: In the words of a song I heard recently, "We had better hope there's intelligent life in outer space, 'cause it's plain that we've been cheated here on Earth."

woodman1< CalicoHawk: Look upon the stars, out in the country away from the city lights some moonless night. And wonder "Is Man the ultimate brain in the universe?" ... Nahhhhhhhhhh

Yopo< Maybe Man's brain CONTAINS the universe. (It contains everything I know about it, at least.) Some amazing packaging, no? To fit an entire universe inside a skull ...

CalicoHawk< woodman1: I have long considered life on other planets, other universes. Why would God put all his 'eggs' in one basket?

woodman1< CalicoHawk: "Seems like a big waste of space." --Sagan

LEGS< Of microcosms and space gnats I guess / that my life takes up even less / of God's space than the microspeck / but it is my own life, by heck / Make of it what I will / and mess it up I may / but God smiles down on me / and watches over me each day.

frodo< Good evening, folks! *S*

Yopo< G'd evening, frodo

frodo< Good evening, Yopo! Guess I missed out on an interesting conversation or two here tonight! Ah, well, our lives get drawn in different but equally good directions, I suspect. *S* Can't be everywhere!

daCrone< (((frodo))) Bless your furry little feet! *S* Good to see you ... I'm on my way to slumberville, but was good to get a glimpse. *VBS*

frodo< Thank you, daCrone. My furry little toes greet you, as well! *S* Have a good sleep with plenty of rest tonight. Or, in a different language, "Duerme con los angelitos!" *S* Good night.

CalicoHawk< Gotta go, Gentle Spirits. Eyelids falling.

greyman< CalicoHawk: Good night.

CalicoHawk< *As I spread my wings, I feel the breath of Shaman gently lift me to the sky. I look around at my friends and wish them all many Blessings* Good Night, Gentle Spirits. Go with Light. And May God Bless.

guitarist< Good and gentle night to the departing ... (((daCrone))) (((CalicoHawk)))

woodman1< CalicoHawk: Nighty nite!

Yopo< Good night daCrone, CalicoHawk ...

frodo< Night, Calico!

woodman1< Mee tooo. . . . yawn! Mah blessings upon thee ALL!

LEGS< *smiling* er, nice to meet you again, woodman1 ... *G*

woodman1< LEGS: As ALWAYS, M'dear. Even if we don't see eye to eye on some things, ah've always enjoyed your sweet presence.

Yopo< Fare thee well, woodman1

guitarist< Ah ... goodnight, woodman1!

woodman1< ***Flash of White Light!*** ***POOOOF!***

LEGS< Ishtahota: As I understand it, you are to be here to continue this seminar next Saturday? Same time?

Ishtahota< LEGS: Yes!!

LEGS< Thank you, again, Ishtahota, and as always, I appreciate you being here // Yopo ... *s* and you, guitarist, and of course sweet LadyV ... very quiet LadyV tonite. I miss FRAML being here ... but knew he had an early nite because of other obligations.

greyman< Good night dear ones. ~~

Yopo< Good night, greyman

LEGS< *waving a fond good-bye to the chatters leaving* hoping that some stay to discuss awhile yet ... hope ... hope

guitarist< *(*(*(*(*L*E*G*S*)*)*)*)* dear heart!

Ishtahota< LEGS: I do not have to go. What's up?

frodo< Ah, well, where two or three are gathered there is Life! God bless you all. Que vaya con El Senor! ****S****

Yopo< frodo: *S*

guitarist< Tienes razon, frodo ... !vaya con Dios!

LEGS< MarriAna: You mean to dissolve the duality? You know what to do? Or do you think duality is what makes the world go round?

MarriAna< I think duality is an illusion, and one has to see through it IF one wants to be whole.

Ishtahota< MarriAna: I agree. I also think it takes a lot of personal work to.

MarriAna< Indeed **sigh** one has to overcome the unnatural fear of "dark aspects" first to integrate them and see there is no dark or light, only multidimensionality, and no judgment.

LEGS< That is interesting, MarriAna ... would like to hear more ... hope you will be here next Saturday.

Ishtahota< MarriAna: These seminars are not so much to teach people. They are more to get people to think for themselves.

guitarist< Ishtahota: Thank you. I'm glad somebody started this conversation.

Yopo< LEGS: BTW The Tolkien signed-first-edition auction ended. A bit shy of 15 thousand. *LOL*

LEGS< Yopo: What a good price! Do you remember who the purchaser was? Will it be on exhibit somewhere?

Yopo< LEGS: Not a clue who. Nor where it's going. Most likely a private collector's private collection.

Ishtahota< Night, LEGS

LEGS< Are you leaving now Ishtahota? (((MaryHugs))) my friend ... good work tonite ... *S*

junganar< Hello, what's happening?

Yopo< junganar: Not a lot. *S* Things are winding down after Ishtahota's seminar.

LEGS< Welcome, junganar ... you missed the seminar, but it will be posted later at greyman's site.

guitarist< Welcome, junganar. We are here, at least for a few minutes.

LEGS< I am just wide awake, Ishtahota, and wanting to talk more. I think that MarriAna speaks along your line of thought very well. Have you two met before?

Ishtahota< LEGS: MarriAna and I have been dancing around a little. Some PM stuff too.

LEGS< MarriAna: Are you Austrian? Or do you have some Native American blood as Ishtahota and I both do?

MarriAna< I'm Austrian.

Ishtahota< MarriAna: I would love to study with some of your medicine people there. I do a lot of personal work in the dream time.

MarriAna< "medicine people"? Well, I haven't seen any worth talking to around here.

Ishtahota< MarriAna: I'm sure they are there on the land.

MarriAna< Yeah, maybe 2 or 3 gnomes hidden in small caves in the mountains, lol

LEGS< DragonD: You have lurked well tonite ... but you are welcome to speak out also.

DragonD< LEGS: Reading my mind? Usually only my friend does that. ;)

LadyV< LEGS: I spoke to FRAML yesterday. When you find time, share with him. Enjoyed reading your messages tonight. How are you feeling?

LEGS< LadyV: Yes, I spoke with FRAML also. He mentioned your visit. He always enjoys talking with you. I have tried to be a good girl with the leg ... but it is difficult to change my habits. *s*

LadyV< LEGS: Yes, and I am concerned about when you will make a decision to take care of this discomfort, like FRAML. He has a purity about him that brings out my nurturing.

snowflakenet< MarriAna: Duality is limiting. Love (light, healing) is the only thing that is real. Everything else we perceive in this 3rd dimensional reality is only a degree to which there is an absence of love.

Ishtahota< snowflake: If you are in duality you see light and dark, Good and evil And all outside of self. It is something we can blame. If you are not in duality, you see that all things have creative and destructive force in them, and you except responsibility for how you use them. We ourselves have this same force in all of us.

MarriAna< **deep sigh @ snowflake** That ain't exactly it. lol There IS no separation into dark-light, really ... they're of "the same stuff" ...

guitarist< Ishtahota: Are you at any point going to discuss the sending of children to psychiatrists and others in the medical field, "for medication and behavioral modification so they can conform to a world of illusion we have created for them" ?

Ishtahota< guitarist: I can.

guitarist< Thank you. I didn't want to deviate from your plan, if you already have one, but I'm interested in this subject. :)

Ishtahota< guitarist: No plan yet. I did not know what I was going to do tonight till 2 hours before.

LEGS< That also intrigues me, guitarist, as I have a grown granddaughter whose life was no doubt saved by the psychiatrists when she was anorexic, but her personality was so modified that she no longer aligns with her own family ... does not even remember some of us ... though she does me, and we among all the others still are warm with each other.

LadyV< LEGS: Those that are anorexic do not get enough nutrients absorbed into the body, nor does the blood flow to the brain as it should. They act as the elderly when they are starting to have hardening of the arteries. I did not know this until I spoke with a Doctor from another country, other than the U.S.

guitarist< LadyV: And they also get osteoporosis, even in their 20s.

guitarist< Come to think of it, if both you and I are right about this, LadyV, then the anorexic are getting old before their time. As serious as I knew anorexia was, I now see it for the crisis it is! We get old too soon as it is without having to induce it early in life!

LadyV< guitarist: Makes sense ... yes, that is true. What happens is, those that have anorexia act as if they are drugged ... they stagger and fall. In the U.S. it is not recognized so much, as we are generally well fed ... it is hidden from some Doctors, but those that work with starvation know. Anorexic people vomit often, and are very ill. They want to die, and for what reason? It is personal to them ... and my heart goes out to them.

guitarist< LadyV: I read in a book a couple of years ago about some Holocaust survivors who barely survived a death march and were rescued by American forces. They were in the same condition, and were having diarrhea every 5 minutes, and appeared to be very old. They were in fact 17 years old.

LadyV< guitarist: Yes, when one does not eat, the cells die ... the brain is first. That is why those children of the southern U.S. were behind in learning after WWII ... they did not get the food. It was the Government that started a program to feed and care for them. Now we have children that do not eat ... and it is a disgrace in a country this size and wealth.

guitarist< I am interested in the subject of sending children to psychiatrists and others because I myself was one of those children. It was a great struggle for me to recover from the after-effects, and took many years. I may still be recovering from them. :)

Ishtahota< guitarist: My parents sent me to one in grade school. LSD made it bearable for me. (Well, high school, not grade school.)

guitarist< (((You too, Ishtahota!))) I was 5 years old when I saw the first one.

LadyV< guitarist: I feel in that case you have come a very long way to survival. Good for you ... there is something you wish to live for now.

daCrone< LadyV: My timing is all a-kilter tonight. I hope you didn't think me rude earlier. I was digging away in my brain dirt and oblivious ... just came back to tell you. *S*

LadyV< daCrone: Understand ... and thank you for telling me ... [smiling]

Ishtahota< Night night! Poofed!

DragonD< Good night and pleasant travels ... :)

Yopo< I'm fading fast here. Can hardly keep awake. Gonna call it a night. LadyV, MarriAna, guitarist, LEGS, Ishtahota, DragonD, snowflakenet, bright dreams to you! Blessings, ALL ...

LadyV< Yopo: Too young to fade out ... [grinning] Goodnight! I follow you soon ... been a long day for me.

Yopo< *S* *gone*

LEGS< *{*{*Yopo*}*}* sweet dreams

snowflakenet< gnight, Yopo.

guitarist< Good night, Ishtahota ... I'll be following shortly myself. (((YOPO))) Good night! It was good to see you.

daCrone< Goodnight (((friends all)) and many thanks for the evening. *S*

snowflakenet< I guess I wasn't able to express what I wanted to say very well. I'm sorry. gnight.

LEGS< Goodnite, snowflakenet ... hope you will join us here again.

guitarist< LEGS: I'm glad to hear that your granddaughter still has a caring connection with you. You must have been very good to her.

LEGS< guitarist: She is the first born of my first born, as I was the first born of my mother. We do connect fairly well, but there is pain for me in her disregard of the others. If I had my way, everyone would be kind and loving to each other ... especially in families.

guitarist< Yes, LEGS ... it must be very painful for you, as loving as you are. *sigh*

LadyV< LEGS: Allow me to say something to you ... when you are fighting to survive you sometimes emotionally kill off what you love in order to live. Not sure if this is the case of your Grandchild ... am saying this is what happens with these children. Generally, the closest to them goes first ... Mom or Dad. It's rough going for families sometimes. Being fragmented is not an easy way to live ... takes all the energy they have to exist from one minute to the next.

guitarist< LEGS: Sometimes they don't have all the right tools. I know that in my case that was so.

LEGS< I do know that her electrolytes were dangerously out of balance, and she had lost to an alarming low weight, so I am grateful to the physicians who got her functioning again ... but perhaps it was the oxygen deficiency that caused her selective memory loss. Where she was formerly so close to her siblings, she does naught to connect to them now.

MarriAna< Well, then it was just a means to get rid of those astral cords to her siblings which were obviously draining her chi.

LEGS< MarriAna ... ????

MarriAna< Some are so guilt-ridden they can't do it consciously -- cut cords like that -- so they install a drama to get rid of them. That way they don't have to face it that they themselves are doing this, and don't have to feel guilty about it (in truth there is no "guilt" of course).

guitarist< MarriAna: I don't think I could judge the motives of someone so ill. It's hard enough to do so when people are healthy! LOL

MarriAna< "judge the motives" -- well, everything is based on mutual consent; you even choose when to die and how, so why should illness be an exception? **sigh**

LEGS< Yes, LadyV ... MarriAna ... now I understand ... and it was touch and go with her. Her heart had already been affected by the electrolyte damage. Now, as mom of two healthy boys, and in business with her husband ... as a scout leader, other activities ... no one would suspect she had once been so near death as to require over a year's stay in the Baylor hospital.

LadyV< LEGS: I am happy for her ... and I am glad, very glad. Some of them are not so lucky.

LEGS< Actually, MarriAna, you rang a bell speaking of the "installed dramas." One of my columnists, Dr. Sam Vaknin, addresses such applied therapies in the February issue of my ezine.

MarriAna< I didn't mean "installed drama" in the psychological sense of the word, if that's what you're referring to.

DragonD< I cut my cords a LONG time ago, while still a child. I never have connected with another soul since then, although I have associated with many.

MarriAna< DragonD: If you cut all cords, why the heck are you still here ?

DragonD< A good question I've been pondering for quite a while. I don't know the answer. I suppose when I do, I won't be here.

LadyV< DragonD: You are surviving, then, the only way you can. One thing though: I hope there is no blaming or anger attached to your decision ... then you are truly free. The one screaming the loudest to blame is the one trapped ... and that is sad.

MarriAna< Well, there is no "blame." If you have to apply blame, apply it to yourself, cause you create your own reality, and it's also in your responsibility whether you create it consciously or unconsciously.

DragonD< LadyV: There was anger and frustration for many years, but I've let it go since it does no good to hold onto it .

guitarist< DragonD: You sound very much like my half-sister (with whom I didn't grow up). Are you adopted?

DragonD< I have never been told I was, but considering the household in which I grew up, I wouldn't put it past them. I actually withdrew from life in general at an early age and never really bonded with the world. Always looking at life from a objective point of view. I haven't ever had any goals or accomplishments I felt I needed to achieve. For me, it's like waiting at a train station for the next train to arrive and not interested in doing anything in particular to pass the time.

LEGS< DragonD: Yet, you seem well educated, and write coherently, intelligently ... so you have accomplished perhaps more than you give yourself credit.

guitarist< DragonD: I apologize for the rude question. I should have asked permission first.

DragonD< guitarist: Not a rude question at all, an honest one, I feel.

guitarist< Yes, an honest question, DragonD. My sister was adopted, since my father and her mother didn't want her. However, my father made sure that we met and could have a relationship. At least he did that much for us. However, she almost never writes or calls. She loves me, but she doesn't feel properly bonded with anyone, except her son (now 13).

LEGS< How considerate of your father to see that you met. The future is ahead of you, guitarist. The overtures may have to come from you,always, but keep the door open.

guitarist< (((DragonD))) Perhaps you just might need to ask them -- or find out however you can. May the truth make you free. The lack of it only makes the problem worse. (((Blessings on you.)))

LEGS< DragonD: I love a man who cut his cords to family as a child of 8 when sent to a boarding school because his father had to be cared for at home with TB. He is only now learning to love others ... since we have become aligned. We have visited with my family and opened up visits with his estranged daughter ... an only child ... and her children ... and he is basking in love ...

DragonD< LEGS: I don't have a family of my own, but I try to do what I can for others in this life if they need help.

LEGS< DragonD: Well, I am here a lot ... and always enjoy talking and a good discussion. Perhaps you can remember my nic and speak to me when we are both here. We can talk about whatever you wish. I will try to be honest and not pull punches with you. I will be a friend.

DragonD< I spent many hours at local libraries and read a lot. I would say they were my only true companions. I learned most (if not all) from them, as opposed to public schools.

LEGS< I count books as my friends, too, DragonD ... *smile* ... and it is nice to be able to re-read a favorite tale, and be able to trust it to turn out the same ... *s*

[no response]

LEGS< *sigh* I've done it again ... run everyone out of the room. Some day I will learn to lurk and listen. May this room be a blessing to all who enter it, and may their prayers be for the greater good of themselves and the ones for whom they pray ... and as such, may they receive a speedy and satisfactory answer. I offer up the two children in STL who are suffering from a rare genetic blood disease that deteriorates their bone marrow ... and for the successful search for bone marrow donors who can save their lives. May God bless all concerned.

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