Session 2
Sat 10 Feb 2001
Host: Ishtahota

Ishtahota< /topic Pre Post for Duality seminar #2

In the first class we explored the symptoms of duality. We took the symptoms from their furthermost point back to the self where it all begins. In this class I would like to look at the causes of duality.

The ego can live in the gray eras of life because it is not part of the spirit mind. The ego makes exceptions to any rules it comes up against. After all the ego has a job and that is to serve the well-being of the self, to keep us alive. And it motivates us through fear. For the spirit mind to deal with conflict the ego always gets us into, it must split itself. One part of the split becomes the conscious everyday mind and the other part becomes the sub-conscious or dreaming part of ourselves. When we can tap into states of awareness using both parts of our mind as one, we can get answers to things that confuse us in our everyday life. As we go to sleep or as we awaken in the morning there is a small amount of time where both halves of our consciousness are one. It is at this moment when we step into the knowing. When we meditate and take the time to do our personal clearing work we can stretch this time period and make it longer and stronger.

If we are born whole, you might ask when does the split in our consciousness start to happen? It starts when we are children, and it is because of our taught behavior. For most of us it starts with Santa Claus, The Easter Bunny and The Tooth Fairy. When we find out that these people do not really exist. It starts when our parents tell us to do as they say and not as they do.

When we as parents force our children to live in the world of duality, our children lose the vision of their life, the reason they came here to this planet in the first place. They cannot find their joy and bliss in this life. They become lost and the parents, already being in duality and excepting this duality as a way of life, cannot help them find their way. Our children become restless and out of control. The drive they have to create in this world and have their vision become reality is still in them at a very deep level, but it is clouded by the ego. They can not see it and they do not know how to blow away the clouds.

What do we do when our children start to rebel against us and this society we live in? Well, we send them to psychologist and psychiatrist to solve their problems. There is one very big problem with this, and that is that these children are in a spiritual crisis and the professionals we have to help our children only recognize and understand the physical, mental and emotional side of human beings. At the very best all they can do is get our children to conform to and accept the type of world we live in. What we do for the most part is cure the symptoms and cover up and deny the causes.

FRAML< /topic BEN'S SEMINAR: Duality, pt 2. 11 pm 10 Feb. Ishtahota is host.

Ishtahota< Hay, FRAML

Star12< Evening, Ishtahota. I'm here, but most likely will not open my mouth ... again. *G*

greyman< Namaste dear ones.

Star12< reading class notes

deadsoul< So, that long post is what we got to learn to be the truth tonight?

guitarist< Hello everyone!

Ishtahota< AhHo!! Everyone.

guitarist< Shalom, Ishtahota.:)

Star12< Evening, quietstorm. *VBS*

Quietstorm< Much love to everyONE!!!! (((Star12))) *VBS*

LEGS< Greetings to all... I'll listen quietly now.

greyman< Ishtahota: Given a child of normal intelligence, maybe this split begins when the child begins to manipulate surrounding environment with purpose; e.g., crying to get parents attention; moving objects in close contact; or adapting simple physical and/or abstract tools.

Ishtahota< greyman: It could but I do not think so, myself.

greyman< Ishtahota: You have never seen a child deliberately cause a "fuss" in some social context such as a shopping center, or other public area?

Ishtahota< greyman: I think a baby just cries out of discomfort or need. I do not think they sense that much about manipulation and control. When a child can talk and then tells one of their discomfort and gets nothing, then it throws a fit. I think it starts at that point.

greyman< Ishtahota: Ahhh, I see. I came hard-wired to come in contact with strong role models. That is how it could. *G* Maybe.

LEGS< *failing to see how a child trying to manipulate thru temper tantrums etc, is duality. It seems natural to push as far as parents will allow... a testing and learning the limits stage of all infants, toddlers, youngsters. But when they reach the age of pretending to listen and agree with the parents viewpoint, all the while planning to continue their headstrong way as soon as the parent lets them out of their sight -- that is developing duality in presenting themselves. Sadly, it is usually with the parents that the duality develops ... or if not, it is with siblings.

deadsoul< What's that got to do with things being good & bad at the same time? I thought that was the subject.

Ishtahota< deadsoul: Last week was the symptoms of duality, and this week is the causes. Things have creative and destructive force. Instead of saying they are good or bad, we start now to see that we are responsible for their uses as we leave duality.

LEGS< deadsoul: It is a way to explain the concept of duality and how it extrapolates into our lives.

Ishtahota< Question #1 -- What is the earliest thing you can remember that someone told you and you later found out was untrue? And how did you feel when you found out the truth?

deadsoul< Bill Clinton saying that he didn't have 'sex with that woman.'

Star12< The tooth fairy. I felt betrayed by unknown forces. Wanted it to be true ... difficulty letting it go.

greyman< Ishtahota: Very first realization was at the age of 3 1/2 years: my father was not "perfect". A difficult concept to face when stabilization issues are important for early developing minds.

LEGS< I think that my first experience was when I found out that I was not going to really get a pony for my birthday, after my grandfather had promised one. Looking back now, I see it was supposed to have come true when he told me, but a serious accident to him, that put him in a wheelchair the greatest part of the rest of his life, intervened in his plans. But to me ... I realized at the time that everything that grownups told you might not come true.

Ishtahota< LEGS: A child can see that grandfather has been hurt and can not provide. Duality is caused by direct conflict that can not be reasoned out or solved.

LEGS< Ishtahota: I believed that the pony would be there despite hell or high water BECAUSE my grandfather had said it. The hurt he had suffered from the accident did not seem to have anything to do with preventing something from happening that he had TOLD ME would occur. I think I expected the pony to magically appear ... sorta like I have looked for relationships ... because I was told I deserved the best. We tend to believe what we WANT to believe.

guitarist< A prelude to my answer: It was interesting for me, since I'm Jewish. I didn't get told the Santa Claus-and-Easter-Bunny-thing, but I saw my Catholic and Protestant friends as they went through being told and then disillusioned. I think they knew the truth earlier than they showed that they knew it, but they hid that for awhile, going through the motions until they figured out how they were going to respond, each in his/her individual way. It's hard in any case for children to believe that their parents lie to them, so they take it on themselves many times.

wicken21< Yeah, we ought to make it a crime for parents to lie to their kids. Makes them grow up and lie to theirs.

Star12< guitarist: I, too, am Jewish. You did not have a Hanukkah fairy? Still believed in that after the tooth fairy ...

guitarist< Star12: I did not grow up with a Hanukkah fairy. I only heard of Hanukkah Harry when I married my husband and included my stepson, who says I was deprived since I didn't know HH. *s*

Quietstorm< I asked for a little brother many times over and my mom said maybe someday. Then I heard her tell a stranger she was "fixed"... I was hurt and confused.

WaveWarrior< evening all ~(wave)~

greyman< WaveWarrior: A mighty Maxwell's equations greeting to you, too!

WaveWarrior< greyman: *S* ~(wave)~

guitarist< I was told by my mother that I was very smart when I was about 3 or 4, but then I had to see some doctors... and before I knew it, I was being driven to a hospital where I wouldn't see my mother for several weeks, and ended up staying 4 and a half years. I was very hurt and disillusioned for many years, and thought it was all my fault. I accepted a lot of abuse (mostly verbal, and some physical) that I wouldn't have ordinarily because I thought I was damaged goods. Many years later I found out that I'd had an IQ test (yes, they can do this on young children) that I scored in the low 60s. They looked for all kinds of answers and found none except that my mother was so bonded with me that she didn't know where the boundaries were -- and neither did I.

Ishtahota< Question #2 -- What kinds of things did your parents, elders or teachers do at the same time they were telling you not to do?

greyman< Ishtahota: Don't Drink, cuss, or smoke: Damn! I left my cigarettes at the bar! *G*

Star12< lie ... cheat ... smoke ...

WaveWarrior< The lesson of truth -- by example -- how it feels when it is discovered.

LEGS< The common saying when I was in school ... by TEACHERS ... was "Do as I say, not as I do" ... which impressed upon most of us that, once we were adult, all things would be permissible by attaining that status.

Ishtahota< LEGS: Double standards is a good symptom.

greyman< Ishtahota: Not unlike sticking your finger into an active light socket!

guitarist< I think that if adults would explain that they have privileges because they are adults, then that solves much of the problem of lying to children. "Cause I'm the dad" or "Cause I'm the mom" is often enough explanation.

Ishtahota< guitarist: I think that could be handled by explaining the creative and destructive force that is in something, and then showing the child all of the outcomes.

greyman< Ishtahota: Ahh, that would explain a lot: children of Shiva.

guitarist< 1) One of the counselors at the hospital loved to put people down behind their backs, but actually threatened me behind closed doors when I did it to her. 2) My mom, who had been separated and then divorced from my father for many years, tried to rein me in sexually while having lots of boyfriends herself. (She even stole one of mine.)

Yopo< Yeah, adults sometimes say one thing and do another. I don't necessarily find fault with that all the time, though. A developing child needs things set out unambiguously, right? Let's be honest. As adults, we know that there are times for truth and times for untruth. There are grey areas. But you don't give a kid a good foundation by starting with explanations of grey areas. You present ideals. (Ideally, anyhow...) Part of growing maturity is learning to reconcile our model of an ideal world with the way the world really is. IMHO

LEGS< Good points there, Yopo. We don't tell our hostess that we hated everything she prepared for dinner; we say how lovely everything looks, and how she is glowing, and the flowers are lovely, the china is exquisite, etc., avoiding the truth that would injure if stated outright. And what is important when dining with friends? Certainly it is the relationships... not the food.

Yopo< LEGS: Yep. *LOL* I imagine every parent has at some point been embarrassed by a child's honest comment to someone.

sludgett< But if person lies in telling that to their host, won't that cause them to be sent to hell?

Ishtahota< sludgett: No!!

guitarist< LEGS: I agree with you. We must teach children not to hurt others' feelings. But how do we do that when we hurt theirs? I think Ishtahota is talking about this: if the Tooth Fairy or Easter Bunny were, say, poisoned food items, and were fed to children as good food, and then it developed that because it was poisoned, the children had to throw it up, they were made sick, and when they asked why, it was, "Oh, it was poisoned (the Easter Bunny isn't real)." This is a different issue from telling people not to smoke and drink. I'll explain in my next post...

LEGS< guitarist: We were taught, in our preteens and teens, that when we do things right, we reap the rewards, and when we mess up, we suffer the consequences. No fairy godmother was going to wave a wand and straighten out our errors... it fell upon us to mend and amend.

guitarist< When an adult tells a child not to smoke, it's often because s/he can't stop him/herself. My father-in-law and father's generation didn't know smoking could kill. In fact, my grandfather gave my father his first cigarette at age 16. My father had a stroke almost 4 years ago, and my father-in-law died from the complications of smoking and overweight. And about setting a good example? My husband smoked for years when my stepson was little, and now the son smokes, even though his dad quit a long time ago when Grandpop died. *sigh*

Ishtahota< Duality is a funny thing to try and see. When I came to see it and understand it, it just sort of clicked in my head, and all at once I saw it. It is one of those things that have to come to you like a spiritual awakening or a spiritual experience. All I can really do is to throw symptoms and causes at you until it finally clicks.

Ishtahota< What I am trying to show you is about taking responsibility for ones actions and their life. People in duality call people, places and things outside of self good or bad, Good or evil. The responsibility really belongs to us as individuals and how we use people, places and things.

Ishtahota< Question #3 -- Describe a situation where something negative could have a positive outcome. Then describe where something positive could have a negative outcome.

Ishtahota< Example: A farmer uses something destructive in a positive manner. He plows his field in the spring to prepare to plant seed. If he uses chemicals in a wrong way, he can poison his fields and the people who eat his food. If he does things in the right way, the people who eat his food, and his land, can benefit from his action. In the fall he plows under to feed the land in preparation for the next years crop. And if the farmer plants the wrong things, weeds are creative in nature, but they can kill other stuff, causing destruction to the crop.

Yopo< Hmm... My best example I guess is what I've gained through loss. The death of a couple of close friends taught me much about compassion. I am a better person for it. Positive gone negative? I guess we all know stories about folks whose lives have been wrecked by winning the lotto. (Unfortunately, I've never had a chance to test what effect such good fortune might have on myself. *LOL*)

greyman< Ishtahota: A good solid value: taking responsibility for ones actions. Unfortunately, in American society those values are diluted in the socially destructive welfare system which makes many addicted through the ole "Government Check".

guitarist< greyman: I agree, but I think that many corporations are more guilty of being addicted through the ole "government check" than any welfare mother! (I'm going to change my name to Chrysler! -ha!)

Ishtahota< greyman: And the people who abuse that are not being responsible.

greyman< Ishtahota: You may blame the Government; you may blame the citizen who may possibly abuse the system or be abused by the system that "keeps a lock" on the situation. Looking beyond the duality of that situation, sooner or later one may discover the concept of "personal choice." At least we should hope so. *G*

LEGS< All welfare is not for unemployed "healthy" people. Much of it is a lifeline for unemployable "unsound individuals" such as my late sister who was an invalid from MD ... the last four years confined to a bed ... and required to fill out the report annually to state that she was not miraculously "cured" and now able to hold down a physically demanding job.

greyman< LEGS: I am liberal enough to "buy into" a safety net concept. But historically this was the job of the church. Now it is a "no, no". We have lost our moral compass since 1963 (or before).

guitarist< Yes, LEGS, and for mothers who get left holding the children when their daddies leave and don't support them! At least that's how it was for my mother. This is when there wasn't a lot of daycare -- baby-sitting was expensive --and Grandma worked, too.

Yopo< (Ah, I swore to myself I would never express political opinions in SWC...) However... *hehe* Seems to me a primary function of any contemporary government worth its stuff IS involuntary redistribution of wealth, hopefully from those who have to those who don't. Without that mechanism, wealth and power would accumulate endlessly into the hands of those already have enough wealth and power to tilt the table toward themselves. (And with that, I shall very quickly get off my soapbox. *S*)

LEGS< The world abounds now with people who have excelled in developing a creative talent or a natural talent (such as singing) against limitations they were born with; i.e., Stevie Wonder, Ray Charles, and the painter with no limbs who uses his teeth to hold the brush ... another one who is armless but paints with his feet. As though the physical challenge brought out the best in them.

Ishtahota< LEGS: AhHo!!! No good or bad, just good lessons.

guitarist< LEGS: I agree with you, that we do suffer the consequences of our own actions, and that we can learn from others' mistakes (saves us a lot of time we would spend in making them ourselves!).

LEGS< Unfortunately, guitarist, we fail to learn that when we are younger. It is when we are truly adult that we learn by observations. *S* We can tell a child ... particularly our own ... over and over about mistakes we made, and they will go right out and make those mistakes themselves. *sigh*

guitarist< Yes, LEGS ... they make them themselves because children are more literal-minded and concrete in their thinking; therefore, our example is what they take seriously. Deeds, more than words. One reason I was very careful around my stepson, who needed a very good, careful example!

Yopo< Maybe we have to learn some things by going through experiences ourselves. The experience is the teacher. It's like, I really wouldn't know pumpkin pie by just having LEGS tell me about HER experience with pumpkin pie. Gotta have the pie myself. Then I KNOW.

LEGS< *mailing Yopo the slice of pumpkin pie* SWAK

Ishtahota< And if we do not learn from others, we enter into dramas to show us our wrong thinking, or doing ... ?

GypsyMage< "We learn by doing" ... guess that includes those experiences that would be better for us not to have!

LEGS< For many, like my sister who had a brilliant mind trapped in an uncooperative body, the personal choice becomes an exit from coping. She chose to survive and try to prepare her family emotionally to accept her final sleep.

GypsyMage< From an adult's viewpoint, we can understand some of the duality of our parents in telling us to do this or not to do that while they might be indulging in those things themselves. However; it is difficult for us to stop our children from experiencing for themselves those things that we would wish for them never to have to go through ... but how they handle the situations -- the hardships -- the hurt and grief that they might encounter -- is what lets us know if we gave them the tools when they were young to be able to cope and survive.

LEGS< I like that statement about duality, GypsyMage... thanx

Ishtahota< A bad relationship can show someone their co-dependence. Or having a friend who always takes can show us about personal power or how we enable others to stay where they are or keep doing what they are doing.

LEGS< *Tough Love is... T O U G H!!!*

Ishtahota< What one thing do you see helping people to find their moral compass and walk their talk?

greyman< Ishtahota: Why, Ishtahota, let us ask the Great Spirit! It is called guidance. *G*.

Ishtahota< greyman: That will work, but it will take longer.

Ishtahota< What do you see as today's best guide for what the ancients called clearing work, so they could awaken?

alremkin< Ishtahota: Their own intention to seek light-love or Oneness or the lack of it. It's the same old story: Seek and you will find.

guitarist< Taking time out during young adult life to figure out just how I was going to live the rest of my life helped me find my moral compass. That was after G-d found me. Then, because of the structure of things imposed by my then-newfound faith, I was able to rest from striving after things I wasn't ready for just yet.

GypsyMage< I've always lived my life believing that I was setting an example for someone to follow ... which meant that I had to be very, very careful in living up to the standards that are respected. I guess that following the golden rule of "do unto others as you would have them do unto you" way of life would be the one thing that would help all of us to live better lives.

LEGS< Ishtahota: I really believe that Ben's seminar brings up quite a few subjects that some of us didn't even realize we should be working on until we see them discussed. But personally, prayer and trying to be open to the answers and "holds on answers" is my choice of moral compass.

Ishtahota< I'm talking about real hard work here. The ancient ones did something that has surfaced in the 60 years with a new face and a new name.

greyman< Ishtahota: Cleanse lepers (clean the spirit of contamination, as cleansing a wound before dressing), heal the sick (self explanatory) & raise the dead. All performed by divine guidance.

LEGS< Ah... I agree with both GypsyMage and Yopo... and respect guitarist and Ishtahota and greyman for their studied posts.

guitarist< Prayer! And if you can, two-way prayer! And rigorous honesty with self ... being harder on self than on others ... "standing back" to observe things. And taking the time to understand what you're seeing ... the person who's talking with you, etc.

GypsyMage< guitarist: Yes! Prayer is such a constant part of me that I forget to mention it ... thank you!

Yopo< Love is the north point on my own moral compass. (One thing we probably all agree on... *S*)

greyman< Yopo: I like that! Maybe a little better than "Truth & Beauty" as a moral "North" *G*.

Yopo< greyman: *S* A conclusion that crystallized for me during Ben's "Which Way is Up?" seminar.

greyman< Ishtahota: Sometimes, time is all we have to work with. Patience is a virtue that may suffer the most punishment!

GypsyMage< greyman: Ahhh ... to be virtuous and have that patience!

greyman< GypsyMage: No virtue goes unpunished. I have personal datapoints to prove it by enumeration. *G*

LEGS< Ishtahota: Are you speaking of working out problems thru the sweat lodges... or by meditating for answers? Actually, Ben's two-way prayer guide is most similar to meditation where you wait for the answer ...

alremkin< Self-clearing has always been the major challenge for humanity in the face of the duality causing separation from All-That-Is.

Ishtahota< Give up? A priest once said this work was now doing what the church should have been doing all along.

guitarist< Ishtahota: Are you talking about meditation?

Ishtahota< I'm talking about hard personal work. Being brutally honest with ones self.

GypsyMage< I give up Ishtahota ... to what work are you referring?

Ishtahota< 12-Step work. It is not just for drunks.

alremkin< AA?

Ishtahota< alremkin: Yes! Read them sometime and see what you think.

alremkin< Ishtahota: Interesting. I was able to tune-in to your thought.

guitarist< Ishtahota: You are the only person I know of who talks about "personal work" in this manner. You don't have another name for it, do you?

Ishtahota< guitarist: Just clearing work. I do use the sweat lodge for people when they get blocked. It has a way of bring up emotional stuff you do not realize is there.

LEGS< Yes, Ishtahota, the 12 step is for everyone ... not just for drunks ... and for everyone in all ages. The concept can only go as far as they can understand it at the moment. It sometimes takes years to work through ... and recognizing a one Source of creation is a big part of the 12 step work.

alremkin< Most only go to the 12 step program when they are desperate, which forms their intention. So how much more can we who aren't substance dependent manifest the love of God?

Yopo< I myself just try to be awake. Not to walk through the day in a trance. It isn't easy. We're most of us only awake briefly, and at wide intervals. We wake up in the morning into a different kind of dream, but still a dream.

Ishtahota< Hay! When we can walk on water we are there. Till then we need to keep working.

GypsyMage< Ishtahota: There are so many 12 step programs in existence now ... not only AA, but for overweight people and families of alcoholics and drug addicts ... so, yes, the 12 step program which encompasses so many of the virtues that we strive to obtain ... a good answer ... a good way to live!

alremkin< GypsyMage: Or put another way: I am the Way, Truth, and Life, no one comes to the Father, but by me.

GypsyMage< alremkin: So true! Thanks for putting it here!

Ishtahota< alremkin: The translation is not that correct. It really means no one gets there without doing the things I have done. Back then it referred to a teachers path or teaching. The way it is read today is how we get around being responsible for our actions and lack of growing.

alremkin< Ishtahota: I argue that avoiding responsibility is not the Way.

guitarist< Interesting interpretation, Ishtahota. Hmmm. I'm cogitating about that one!

GypsyMage< Ishtahota: I understand what you are saying ... that it is the way of life that leads to that obtainment. My opinion is that it is through our belief in Jesus as well as following the ways that we can have everlasting life!

alremkin< My understanding is that following the Way and belief in Jesus are One and multiversal.

GypsyMage< alremkin: I like that "multiversal"

Ishtahota< Let those who have an eye see, and let those who have an ear hear.

LEGS< I believe when we feel the lowest is when we should ask why God has us in this place at this time. We should look around ourselves to see where He wants us to help someone, or further some growth for ourselves. We could be the one we are not trying to help... we need to face that possibility.

greyman< Good night dear ones. ~~

LEGS< *{*{*greyman*}*}*}*

Yopo< Blessings, greyman! Fare thee well...

guitarist< Good night, greyman, dear heart! Sleep well, don't let the bedbugs bite, and say hi to Verity for me!

Ishtahota< The thing is, when we have stuff in us -- character defects, resentments, fears, and stuff -- the power of spirit is blocked and cannot flow to us and then to others. That is why this work is necessary.

guitarist< Yes and amen, Ishtahota!

LEGS< Who me? Character defects? Yes, alas, we can't always see ourselves as other see us ... or as the Divine Power must see us ... frail and uncertain, stumbling and headstrong ... refusing to look up and seek guidance.

Ishtahota< LEGS: That is why one should get a sponsor to help them do their personal work. They always work on you and keep you honest and you NEVER, NEVER work on them. That way you do not get into a power play and start the blame game.

LEGS< I can see, Ishtahota, how hard it must be, and what a thankless task, to sponsor someone as they work out their personal stuff ... as much as a teenager "hates" the parent with their everlasting advice and rules, how much more flak from an adult must a sponsor absorb. *sigh*

guitarist< Ishtahota: So, who DOES work on the sponsor? Someone must. Otherwise, that person could become arrogant and harm his protégé ... and the cycle could potentially never end. I was in a cult-like situation that operated on this model, so I'm familiar with it.

LEGS< Good point, guitarist ... about the sponsor's own personal work.

alremkin< guitarist: This is why the first commandment is: Love God with all your heart, mind, and soul. It's the centering that gives us discernment. A teacher can help, but recognition of the Holy Spirit is essential.

Ishtahota< alremkin: Most christians say "Believe in Jesus" and that is it. A lot repeat their mistakes over and over, never doing any personal work. This is one of the causes of our children entering into duality.

guitarist< Yes, alremkin ... and Ishtahota ... if more people did their personal work, it would show when they dealt with others, particularly their students (or proteges or children), and they wouldn't have so much to rebel against.

alremkin< Ishtahota: You've shown the way to differentiate between those who talk the talk and those who walk the walk. While it's simple, it's never been easy here.

LEGS< Ishtahota: I think I understand what you are getting at about some Christians -- the ones who believe that, once they believe on and attest Faith in Jesus, they are forever saved and need not ever worry about their fate again -- but the truth is, there are those who profess in the desire of the moment, the need for the attention of the moment, the hope that it is true though they don't understand it ... and they stop right there. The REAL way is to walk that talk from then on, to always work on oneself, and to try to be available for Spirit to use them in Christian deeds to help others ... IF they have truly accepted and been saved ... have repented and professed and are willing to change their lives. As it is with other situations, each has a choice.

GypsyMage< Both Ishtahota and alremkin are right ... we have to be committed and do the personal work to live the life we are supposed to live and to be of help to others that they may come to know joy and peace and a quality of life that only comes with knowing and loving the Holy Spirit ... God ... Jesus ... the Higher Power who helps us do what we need to do. Good night to each of you sweet friends ... may you know peace and joy and be enveloped in the white light of hope and love and healing ...

LEGS< Sweet dreams, GypsyMage, thanx for being here tonite... *hugs*

Ishtahota< Night, GypsyMage

alremkin< GypsyMage: Good night, Namaste.

guitarist< (((GypsyMage))) I'm glad to have spent time with you. Sleep well and heal some more! May your blessings come back to you a hundred-fold.

Yopo< A good night to you, GypsyMage! *S*

[Apparently, guitarist asked what kind of sponsor Istahota would choose.]

Ishtahota< guitarist: Personally, I would chose the meanest nastiest SOB I could find. First rule for healing is, work on self first. A sponsor should have their own sponsor and be a few years ahead of you.

guitarist< So, this is the meaning of "confess your sins to one another and pray for one another, that you may be healed" ... ?

alremkin< guitarist: Yes. We are One. As we collectively raise our vibration, we are more able to interact with the Heavenly Host, hence as we are more open we clear more, interact more, and so on until ascension.

Ishtahota< guitarist: Admit to and make amends for, where-ever possible, except when it would do harm.

LEGS< Yes, harm ... irreparable harm can be done by a spouse who confesses cheating to a mate that never knew it and will, once told, never forget nor forgive. It is a selfish way of inflicting more hurt on the spouse than the original 'cheating episode(s)' did.

guitarist< Ishtahota: Would you choose that SOB person for your sponsor or your student? Sorry for being so picky about this, but I just want to understand.

Ishtahota< As a sponsor, guitarist.

Yopo< Personally, I've never found any one person I would rely on exclusively for guidance. The "sponsor" concept wouldn't work for me. On the other hand, I've found good lessons from many different people. Many of whom had only some one particular lesson to give me. I go with the idea that we are all both students and teachers. I also feel there are certain dangers in placing another over us in the role of guru, guide, or spiritual authority. (Respectfully submitted... *S*)

LEGS< guitarist: I think that Ishtahota is referring obliquely to the fact that no one knows how unlovable or mean or nasty we can be, better than our self, so choosing the meanest, nastiest, means choosing to work on yourself first.

alremkin< This is a good chat. It's why I like to come here.

guitarist< I was thinking the same thing, alremkin.

Yopo< midnight already?

Ishtahota< Yopo: The sponsor knows the way, and so do you. They keep you honest, and make sure you spend a certain amount of time doing your work every week. They are the one you confess all to. They help you see you from all sides.

LEGS< That is a great way to try, Ishtahota. Thank you for sharing it with us.

Yopo< Ishtahota: A good concept, I agree. Just not one that I'd personally feel happy with. Prefer being the captain of my own little ship, even if I wind up on a reef. *S*

guitarist< I tend to agree with Yopo, because of my experience with the cult-like situation. It was called "shepherding." It doesn't seem to work with American culture very well, because people who would be sponsors have more self-interest at heart; it may work for some Native cultures better because basic trust and caring for others is at the heart of their life.

LEGS< {*{*{*Yopo*}*}*} so glad you are here tonite. I look forward to the end of March when we will get to meet. *S*

Yopo< *S* Looking forward, too, LEGS! Hey, I've got to get some sleep. Having a hard time keeping my eyes open, all of a sudden. Enjoyed the seminar tonight, Ishtahota. Thanks! A good night to you. G'd night LEGS, guitarist...

Ishtahota< Later, Yopo.

guitarist< (((YOPO))) good night.

Ishtahota< Well, I am going to poof out in a while. I hope everyone got something out of these two seminars.

guitarist< Thank you, Ishtahota. I'm sure we'll all be thinking about this for a very long time. I know I will. I hope I have understood what you were saying.

LEGS< {*{*{*Ishtahota*}*}*} Thank you for all the preparations and the neat way you organized your questions. Apparent that you put a lot of time in on these two weeks of Seminar on Duality. Is this the final session, or will there be a follow-up?

Ishtahota< LEGS: There could be more on other things -- Creative force or personal power. No plans for now, though.

LEGS< Well, I look forward to seeing you here again, Ishtahota, as a participant if not the leader of the evening. (((Hugs to my dearfriend))) Thanx to you also, alremkin ... some very good input from you ... and of course you, guitarist and Yopo. I think it was better tonite than last week ...

alremkin< As I said before, this was a good chat. I was able to feel the Holy Spirit from time to time. We will meet again. Good night everyone.

Yopo< And a good night to you as well, alremkin. *S*

Ishtahota< Thanks, alremkin. Was real nice to have you here.

alremkin< Namaste.

guitarist< I am leaving shortly also. Goodnight, alremkin. Glad to have you back.

Yopo< Blessings ALL ... Bright dreams! *gone*

Ishtahota< Poofed!!!!!!!!!

guitarist< And thus it was that the people of G-d learned that they'd better start walking their talk! (How about this one: "Talk little, walk much!" But I'd have a hard time with that one, loquacious self that I am!)

guitarist: ***poof***

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