Amazon Room
Sat 24 Feb 2001

Ben< /topic Ben's Seminar tonight 11 pm Eastern. Your choice of topic.

selki< Okay, topic of our choice, hmmm ... I'm having a difficult time with having loved someone so dearly, and finding out that I was lied to. Anyone?

Ben< ALL: Would anyone like to post a question for discussion? YOUR TURN

Ben< selki: (smile) I was typing my invitation while you were posting your question.

daCrone< greetings everyone *S*

cosmicmuffin< good evening everyone

Ben< Greetings to all new arrivals.

gardengirl< Greetings all *S* selki: That's a tough one ... nothing easy about it :-(

selki< gardengirl: It's very difficult to deal with. What's worse is that the lies were so convincing, and I have a problem now with trusting and believing anyone, I feel like I can't do that.

dawnwolf< selki: I am having a difficult time having loved someone for 20 years and having it fall apart.

cosmicmuffin< Good evening, selki. Is your loved one aware that you know you were lied to?

selki< cosmicmuffin: It was my loved one that lied to me and hurt me very badly.

FRAML< And then one gets into the various meanings of the word "love" and how they are present or absent in a relationship.

gardengirl< selki: I have felt that way ... the image I had back then was of having put all my eggs in one basket, and he dropped the basket. I thought I'd never get past it ... but I did ... takes time ...

daCrone< betrayal ... I think it helps me to put things in perspective when I use this term. I have to pause and consider if that is really so -- it seems that there is a timing element involved -- maybe I do not use the term until I have passed through some anger ... thinking ... *s*

cosmicmuffin< selki: Have you spoken to this person about the lie?

selki< cosmicmuffin: Oh ya, but his way of dealing with problems is running away from them, and he will not deal with me now. So I do not contact him anymore.

cosmicmuffin< That's rough, selki. It's hard to resolve a difficult situation in a positive manner for both parties if one insists on running away. Is this a pattern for him?

selki< cosmicmuffin: Ya, I'd say it's a pattern for him, and he is the only one that can help himself.

gardengirl< selki: For me it helped to know about the person's background ... to see what stuff in his history might lead him to 'betray' me ... to understand that he didn't see it as betrayal at all. Didn't change my pain, but helped me ... to be able to forgive him ... eventually ...

selki< gardengirl: I can't accept that, because there are people who have had screwed up lives (which was one of his cop-outs, aside from wanting to drink again) and do not have that type of behavior.

gardengirl< selki: True ... but everybody's different ...

FRAML< Also at play here is the question: Was I being actively deceived by the person, or was I blind to what I should have seen?

daCrone< One of the things I have done routinely is expect honesty ... I hold few expectations of others who are not close to me. I think FRAML is right in that I know I can blind myself to reality and see what I choose instead ... it has caused me grief before.

selki< FRAML: I sincerely did not think there was anything wrong in a three year relationship where the person says I love you every single day for three years. Plans a life with you, and then willingly and knowingly fabricates a lie, and I caught him in the lie.

FRAML< selki: Thanks.

Koko44< True Love is not that complicated; one who poses insecurity and low self image reaches out for the love they can not touch within.

Ben< selki: Your question reminds me that love and trust aren't necessarily synonyms.

selki< Ben ... Ah! You can love without trust and trust without love.

Ben< selki: Yes. There is a kind of love that doesn't depend on anything the other person may say or do. It is an act of one's own free will -- to will the best for the other, regardless. That's the only way I know that one can love a person one cannot trust. However, I hasten to add, in my opinion, unqualified love doesn't require one to be so foolish as to continue to trust a proven liar who doesn't regret the lie and resolve to do better.

selki< Ben: That's my problem. He fabricated the lie, and he doesn't have a bit of remorse about it, and I can't believe that another human being can do that to someone else. Call me naive, I probably am, but I just don't treat people like that.

FRAML< selki: Then I recommend that you do what Nelly Forbush recommended, "Wash that man right out of your hair." And do that via changing thoughts about this into 'finished business.'

cosmicmuffin< FRAML gives good advice.

selki< FRAML: Ya, I'm trying to, it's not easy.

cosmicmuffin< That's the thing, selki. Sometimes a negative behavior pattern in a loved one seems so clear to us, but you can't rescue someone who doesn't want to be rescued.

FRAML< selki: Another aspect to examine is if you still have a caring connection to him. If so, what is or was it based upon? and do you need to disconnect it?

gardengirl< selki: Gotta go through a period of mourning and grief first ... because something has 'died' ... and you're entitled to your sorrow ...

daCrone< To lie without remorse bothers me, too. I think, selki, distance is not such a bad thing. Confronting and accepting responsibility for one's own behavior is honorable -- he must come to the place within himself where this can be done ... and no amount of external pushing or cajoling will work ... you are doing what you must do ... imho

Ben< selki: Let me put another word in this discussion: "like". You can't trust him, and you don't like people who betray trust. Fair enough. Can we love someone we can't trust and don't like? Not easily. But perhaps we can wish them well, regardless of all that, and let them go their own way.

selki< Ben: I have let this person go. Not so sure I can wish him well, because there are other circumstances that I would prefer to keep private. I'm trying to get a better understanding of why someone would go to such lengths as he did to make up a story, and how he could have been so convincing until he slipped up, and I caught him.

Ben< selki: People (and spirits) who fabricate lies usually do so in order to get something they want which they think you would not give or do if they told the truth. Deception is designed to disguise something.

LadyV< Ben: The letting go is the hardest part ... I feel ... takes the greater love to let go ... maybe? Then what happens in a situation where both will die if the relationship continues ... an abusive wife or husband ... feeding off the anger in each other ... neither ready to let go ... or a controlling wife or husband. When does the time of letting go arrive? When one has had enough or when one is forced by the law or by life or by death? Thinking out loud ... nothing really important ... just wondering ... or an adult child that is a drug abuser and the parents see the grief ... and sometimes children are there ... so many questions in relationships ... tricky sometimes I think ...

Ben< LadyV: Yes, letting go (releasing) is often the hardest part. And clinging to an abusive relationship can be destructive and/or self-destructive. Your thinking out loud is very important, in my opinion.

FRAML< selki: When you are faced with outright deception and have it thrown in your face at the last moment, then I can see where 'love' is over and trust as well.

daCrone< Well, hummm ... I didn't always like my dad, but I trusted him and loved him. I am afraid to trust one of my kids, but I love and like her ...

FRAML< Perhaps we have another issue here -- reaction to being "used" by another for their own purpose.

selki< Thanks, daCrone. // FRAML: Exactly. I went from a messed-up marriage right to him.

gardengirl< To me, that's the big trouble with relationships ... it's more usual than not to have expectations in a relationship - i.e., I expect you to be honest with me and faithful to me. And often the other person can't meet those expectations, so somebody gets hurt. Doesn't mean the other person isn't love-worthy ... but having a 'relationship' with them can be painful ...

LadyV< gardengirl: Good point about expectations ...

gardengirl< I look forward to the time when we don't have expectations about relationships, and aren't wounded by them ... when we can truly love without conditions.

selki< Oh, well, at least I found out what he was like before I married him. Geez, I don't need an instant replay.

daCrone< Why go to the trouble? He received something from the relationship he did not want to let go of, or he did not know another way to behave, or he wanted to spare feelings and/or avoid confrontation?

cosmicmuffin< selki: This person will "reap what he sows" even if you never see him again. If you were never to talk to him again, someday someone will hurt him as much as he has hurt you ... and hopefully he learns from this. To not have closure on a personal level is difficult for you, though ... gardengirl wisely tells you to take the time that you need to mourn this loss.

selki< cosmicmuffin: I believe that is so, that he will have returned the hurt that he gave to me.

daCrone< selki: The mourning is important, I agree. The fact that you went directly from a messed-up marriage to him says you may not have mourned that loss ... perhaps he felt empowered (odd as that looks when typed out) by your turning to him. When you learned the lie, he was dis-empowered ... if that makes any sense. *s*

LadyV< I just entered as selki was sharing ... so did not hear all of the discussion. I wish her peace ... over and above all else. I learned something in here last week. We were talking in the henge about the dramas that people play out ... because they cannot handle the guilt of how they feel. As an example: An abusive husband or wife has to (in a sense) kill off the other to survive. They do this by blaming the other person or causing a drama ... bringing in the law or the relatives or the neighbors or just being mean. Sometimes this "killing off" is the only way they can survive or hide what is actually killing them, which is fear and hidden shame. I thought about this. To me, if I could see this in a relationship, I could let it go ... simply seeing that I was "just there" ... an object, not a real person to those that were inflicting misery on me. I had the empowerment to move aside and allow ... just allow ... and let them go. If I did this, I would be part of the solution and not part of the problem.

daCrone< LadyV: Thank you -- I am going to ponder your insight.

selki< daCrone: It makes a lot of sense, thank you.

LEGS< selki: Sometimes, deep down, we are looking for an instant replay ... and hardly ever can you find two people alike, two who would or have responded to you the same way. After losing my husband after a happy long time, I was eager to begin sharing with another the same trusting and loving time I had had with him. Sometimes the happiness leads us to false expectations in a new relationship.

cosmicmuffin< I must leave for the night. I wish all of you peace, especially selki ... take care. Good night.

Ben< cosmicmuffin: Good night. Glad you were here. Sleep well.

selki< Good night, cosmicmuffin

FRAML< Cosmicmuffin -- remember to count your blessings before you sleep.

Ben< selki: I thought I heard a sigh of relief in your statement, "Oh well, at least I found out what he was like before I married him ... "

selki< Ben: Yes, a sigh of relief. He told me that he was wanting to drink again. He was clean and sober for at least 11 years, and I went thru one marriage with an alcoholic. I will never go thru that again.

LEGS< ((((((selki)))))) we have to set our personal limits and live by them.

selki< LEGS: I have personal standards and I'm not going to subject myself to any type of abuse again.

LadyV< selki: There you go ... [smiling]

daCrone< I congratulate you, selki, for realizing and being able to break a potential pattern ... *NAMASTE*

Blinder< Good for you, selki. You deserve better.

LEGS< Strange, though I had a terribly abusive first husband, the second came to me because he first was only counseling me. We found a deep love hidden in our words, and to be apart was no longer feasible, though there was a good difference in our ages. One thing I never did or allowed others to do, was to run down the first husband around the children I bore to him. When you do this about the other partner, you are subtly telling the child that is also part of their blood ... part of them ... that has so disappointed you and causes them to feel guilt or shame on behalf of that parent. Can stunt the child's future relationships.

Ben< LEGS: Well said.

LEGS< (((((Ben))))) It is special to have you here again.

LEGS< Blinder published an interesting and insightful essay on Love in our February ezine. A bit different in viewpoint but a something to consider.

Blinder< Actually, I recently received an article of a monthly psychology newsletter discussing love versus dependence. If anyone is interested I'd be happy to forward it.

LadyV< Blinder: Hi

Blinder< Hello, LadyV. I chose to make my entrance quietly. *s*

LadyV< Blinder: We are glad you are here.

Blinder< Thanks, LadyV. The author of this particular article I really see eye to eye with. He's a PhD psychologist with whom I've communicated, and I've found his observations to be spot-on in most cases.

selki< *thanks for listening*

Ben< selki: *You're welcome* And thank you for presenting an important topic for discussion.

LadyV< selki: Thank you for sharing ... that takes much courage ... much courage.

FRAML< Time for me to depart for the night. Blessings to all.

Blinder< Bye FRAML.

daCrone< goodnight (((FRAML))) ... // (((selki))) thank you for your openness.

LEGS< Goodnite and sweet dreams FRAML

selki< Thank you everyone.

FRAML< Thanks to all for coming in to talk to night.

selki< nite FRAML

FRAML< ******POOOOOOF*******

LEGS< On behalf of most of our chatters, I thank FRAML and Ben for keeping these Saturday seminars functioning ... means a lot ... look forward all week to sat nite.

selki< good night everyone, thanks again.

LEGS< ((((selki)))) blessings dearheart

Blinder< Goodnight, selki. {{{hugs}}}

daCrone< I have to trot off to bed myself ... that pesky sandman, I know, has been in and out of the house at least three times tonight. He is such a stuff shirt for one in a service industry -- always fussing at me for not keeping normal hours ... can't make him too angry, though, cause he leaves piles of this really fine sand about and it's a booger to vacuum up -- had to buy those thick allergy reducing bags for the Hoover. *lol*

LEGS< (((daCrone))) What a wit you are! Thanks for the description of the sandman.

Blinder< Viktor Frankl noted, while incarcerated in the Nazi concentration camps, that in any given instance, the one thing over which we have control in the most dire of circumstances is our perception -- how we choose to look at things. Still, I wonder ... at what point do we choose to move beyond loving another to action in the interest of our own well being? He was in a position of absolutely no control. Most of us have a degree of control over our external circumstances.

LadyV< Blinder: Viktor Frankl ... yes ... he makes sense, doesn't he?

Blinder< I think he does, LadyV ... he chose to endure the worst of human experiences in an awakened state.

LadyV< Blinder: That's true ... his way is different than that of Eli Weisel, and Weisel is my hero ... admire the man very much. Frankl accepts and applies the human spirit's ability to adjust ... just by simply changing the mind. Weisel says "fight" Do not forget ... had not thought of that until this point. I will have to consider the two of them a bit more in depth ...

Blinder< Ah, well ... 'tis a shame I wasn't able to log on earlier to catch the seminar. Another time, perhaps.

LadyV< I liked the scene of how one man could visualize his wife ... in all that misery, he saw his wife ... and the scene of seeing the sunset ... seeing beauty I guess ... maybe that's it ... the beauty ... those that see beauty survive most anything, come to think of it. I often wonder if that is how our ancestors survived ... just looked up instead of in the mud ...

Ben< Blinder: Good reference. There is a grey area between unselfish love (as shown by some people in those camps) and self-preservation (without which they would disappear in self-sacrifice).

Blinder< I think it goes beyond that, Ben. I think in the area that some may consider self-sacrifice that love of the abuser is lost somehow. *shakes head* I cannot conceive of allowing another to continue an abuse pattern to be a loving action, but then my lessons are close to home from a very troubled daughter. In this instance, I think perhaps love of self and love of another to be one and the same, if we look deeper than the surface. Of course, that only applies in an area in which a person has some degree of control.

Ben< ALL: Time for me to get some rest. Peace and blessings to each of you.

Blinder< Sleep well, Ben.

LadyV< Ben: Thank you ... goodnight ... return when you can ...

Ben< Blinder: Oops ... sorry. Didn't see your post. Yes, I agree that it isn't wise to allow abuse to continue. Earlier, I mentioned that love and trust aren't necessarily synonyms. We were touching on the question of how we can love someone we can't trust.

Blinder< *s* That's Ok, Ben ... get some sleep. It's not your fault I was a late-comer.

Ben< ALL: Good night and great morning. *poof*

LEGS< *{*{*Ben*}*}* my best to you and yours.

Blinder< I have a copy of "Night" here, LadyV. I must read it, altho I have to admit to being buried with reading material right now ... but then, that's always the case. *s*

LadyV< Blinder: Read his autobiography "All Things Run to the River" ... I believe that is the title. You will understand the man more. He was a greatly loved male child ... he tells of how it was before the war ... helps you to see him better ... his roots mainly. "Night" is tough reading. I believe that is the one where he speaks of his love affair with a woman and how he hurt her and why ... it's cruel and raw and truthful ... read that on a day when you are ready to cope with reality ... his words are male reality ... from his own pain ... very revealing, I felt. It caused me to be sad ... but I understood it.

Blinder< When I picked it up I knew, LadyV ... I am not ready yet.

LEGS< What people who have not been in an abusive situation do not ... may not ... realize is that the person being abused is gradually adjusted to it ... it gets worse ... and they keep trying to resolve it ... feeling failure in self that they can't love the person enough ... show enough love that the abuse will not happen again.

LadyV< LEGS: That is true ...

Blinder< *nods* In the case of my daughter, until she ran full speed into the brick wall of the consequences of her own actions, it just kept getting worse.

LadyV< Blinder: And your heart hurt to watch it, I imagine ...

Blinder< Not only hurt to watch, LadyV. She stole from me on a regular basis. In the last instance, it was an antique radio four feet tall that required a van to transport. I did recover that one.

LadyV< Blinder: That happens. I have a friend, a Minister and his wife, that had a daughter that could not get it together. He had a degree in psychology as well. He said to me that he thought he had answers ... there were none. Sometimes I think people are just what they are ... regardless of the genes ... not sure really. I know they are blind ... or listening to a voice I don't understand ... a type of insanity.

Blinder< LadyV: Still, it hurts to watch. She finally hit the wall, and can't understand why I won't bail her out. *sigh* Of course, I'm the ogre here. *shrug* But I have helped her evade the consequences of her actions for the last time.

LadyV< Blinder: May I ask, Do you in the past blame yourself in any way? I am told often by parents that they do this ... those "if only" which, I wonder, seeing these seemingly decent people, I could not imagine them forming a child as this one or that one. I did not understand the blaming part of it ... of themselves.

Blinder< Of course I do, LadyV. I've come to recognize my own shortcomings as a parent, and the places in which I flagellated myself to no avail. I can't go back and change those things, and at some point, you simply have to let people take responsibility for their own actions.

LadyV< Blinder: Then finally she has to face it ... and Dad ... strong ever-loving Dad ... is hanging tough. You loved her fiercely and protected her with your life ... and you did not want the precious little one to suffer ... maybe as you did at one time ... maybe? Now the last act of loving and raising her is to let her go ... and that is what hurts ... I think ... she has to handle it without you this time ...

Blinder< *shakes head* For too long I aided her in evading those consequences, LadyV. If I had done this long ago, she may well have changed her course long ago. By helping her, I simply enabled her to continue her abuse. It's a common misconception, I'm afraid ... that we are helping the abuser by aiding them in a manner that allows the abuse to continue.

LadyV< Blinder: Then let it go ... and soon ...

LEGS< LadyV: Prayers for Yopo and his family. His dad had a serious heart attack ... hospitalized in Marion, Indiana.

LadyV< LEGS: Yes ... tell my friend that I will do that ...

Blinder< *nods @ LEGS* Ok ...

LadyV< Blinder: I am sorry for the pain you feel.

Blinder< Ah, I'm Ok, LadyV. It's just a matter of understanding that everyone has the right to make their own choices in their lives. She made her choices ... she does not have the right to expect me to rescue her from the consequences of those choices, nor to watch her endure those consequences.

LEGS< blinder: So sorry about the daughter ... but you must not blame yourself ... we cannot go back and undo what we have done ... we work for the best solution that is within our perspective at the time ... and when our perspective changes with hindsight ... perhaps it is good that we can't go back at that point ... what chaos to imagine!!

LadyV< Blinder: What she is as a person is not your fault ... remember that ... please remember that ...

LEGS< Also, please know that the consequences are sometimes necessary to effect a turn-around in someone's life. I have a son who is (now, after many consequences) living the lifestyle that I can be proud of.

Blinder< I made mistakes. *shrug* For many years I was a perfectionist, excessively critical of myself, and by extension, all around me. There's still a part of me that is quick to condemn, especially myself. *s* We learn as we are able. She's an adult, and she has the right to make her life choices, and to bear the consequences of those choices. It's a lesson we all have to learn.

LEGS< (((Blinder))) Believe me, I can relate too well!

Blinder< *s* She's a resistor of the highest order. If she survives the turn-around period, she will be a tower of strength, and there will be no pulling the wool over her eyes. She knows all the ploys ... she used them.

LadyV< Blinder: Then she will be a leader ... she is young yet ... give her a bit of time and learning of life lessons ...

Blinder< I do give her time, LadyV. I had no choice but to release ... failure to do so had dire consequences for me.

Blinder< It's late folks ... I know LEGS was going to leave a while ago. I think it's time for bed for me, too.

LEGS< Yes ... I must be off to bed ... nitey nite. May this room be blessed and kept welcome for soothing and solving not smashing and squashing ... *s*

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