LEGS< I wish Ben were here to explain how we are supposed to regard the accidents ... such as today's military plane crash ... as being ordained ... or out of God's control? or what?

FRAML< LEGS: *S* Happens sometimes.

greyman< LEGS: I do not have all the facts, but sometimes accidents are simply man made. Free will has a down side.

LEGS< Well, greyman, it is a lot easier to praise God for no fatalities despite the earthquake in Seattle area than it is when a plane goes down killing all aboard.

greyman< LEGS: Yes, praise God even when your heart is in sorrow. It is hard to start. Doing so sometimes lightens your spirit.

LEGS< I hear you, greyman, it is just very hard to do. I find it almost automatic, but with more feeling, of course, to pray for the families of the deceased ... but understanding? I never shall.

FRAML< Pilot error, it is ALWAYS pilot error, even when it isn't. The pilot made the error of leaving the ground. If God meant for us to fly in this form he would have given us wings. We can ride on trains because he gave us tobacco for cigars so that we can smoke like them, thus He meant for us to have them.

LEGS< *LOL* FRAML ... you crack me up

5foot2< FRAML: If we had been given wings we wouldn't be this form. *grin* I like to think creativity, imagination, determination, and the ability to dream are the gifts we have been given, and flying is a fulfillment of centuries of dreams.

FRAML< Yes. But I was just trying to be a bit light hearted.

5foot2< FRAML: I see. *sheepishly* It has been a while since I was here ...

FRAML< Philip Yancey, in his book "Disappointment with God" talks a bit about that subject. In a more positive vein than Rabbi Kushner's book "Why bad things happen to good people."

LEGS< I will have to get the book and read up on it, FRAML ... not only for myself, but for when others ask the questions.

greyman< LEGS: Sometimes you feel that you are the only one at the front line of the "effort". But I can tell you with a high level of confidence that the "Kingdom of Kindness" is open for business and ready to respond if "Good" can come from it. This is difficult to understand when you are in the middle of the tornado. Just remember who you work for.

echo87< hi all

LEGS< Welcome echo ... thank you, greyman ... very much ... yes ... the Big Boss.

FRAML< Hello ECHO87

greyman< Howdy echo87 !

5foot2< hello hello ECHO87

daCrone< (((Friends))) I am terribly out of sync tonight and very sleepy. I will see you next week if not sooner. *S*

greyman< Good night daCrone, sweet dreams!

LEGS< *{*{*daCrone*}*}* sweet dreams dearheart

FRAML< daCrone: Sleep well & remember to count your blessings to help you drift off.

LEGS< Has anyone heard from guitarist this week???

greyman< LEGS: She was here briefly last Saturday.

LEGS< greyman: I was running late last week ... guess I missed her.

FRAML< LEGS: I haven't heard from her in a couple of weeks. I know that she is taking some college courses in the evenings, besides working her regular job.

LarryGC< Happy birthday 5foot2! Hi {{{LEGS}}} Namaste all.

LEGS< Hello there handsome ... *{*{*LarryGC*}*}* how are you tonite?

5foot2< Hiya LarryGC and thanks!

LEGS< Welcome, quiet1

echo87< Watching the posts flow ... well Ok, refresh by ... trying to get the feel of the conversation. Thanks for the hi's guys.

FRAML< Hello LARRY GC & QUIET1.

echo87< Okay, so other than regs, what else you guys discussing?

LarryGC< Just got here myself. Looks like we're going to be getting a snowbeating starting tomorrow!

FRAML< ECHO87: We were talking about the big snow storm that is hitting the east coast this weekend. Does God cause accidents like the plane crash today. What are you interested in?

LEGS< FRAML: I don't really think God causes accidents. I just don't know how we can "give God the glory" when such a tragedy occurs.

FRAML< I don't see a need for it. Just don't give him the blame.

LarryGC< They say that if something happens to you, it happens for a reason. If 100 people are killed in a plane crash, was it all of them who it happened to, or just 1 or 2, and the other 98 just made bad decisions on their path?

LarryGC< Sometimes it's your lesson, other times you're used in a lesson for someone else.

LarryGC< The planet and gravitational rules plus human error lends for some pretty complex actions, with each action having the mathematical effect that is god's plan, in motion. The laws of physics are there whether we like it or not. When we make a plane, sometimes it just don't work right. That's the choice and chance we take when flying.

LarryGC< If there is a plan, it must all be in the master plan, we just can't comprehend it.

LarryGC< We're just one 5-billionth of the human body on the planet, when 100 or 200 of them are lost in a plane accident, the impact is really only one the few other 1/5 billionths that those individuals know. Who are we to judge? All I know is, if I'm reading about it in the newspaper or watching it on TV, then I wasn't in it, and so it matters not to my existence. Whether or not there is any divine interventions, or not, only matters for one brief moment in time when you are life threatened. Quite complex, indeed.

LEGS< LarryGC: I once read an article claiming that a trip has a separate 'karma' from the individuals. When you join an air trip or train trip or car trip, it is the karma of the journey you are under, not necessarily your own ... and when you survive and no one else does, it is because your personal karma is demanding you exist a while longer ... but I don't believe in karma as such

FRAML< LEGS: I don't think you can take a carma trip in an airplane. Now I know of carma trains where you load your carma on it and then you ride in a passenger carma, so I guess your carma is affected there, but if you leave "ma" at home, then there is only you and your car, so you don't have to worry about carma.

LarryGC< I was going to write something like that, FRAML ... if I took the karma, I'd not be in the plane :) but I erased it.

greyman< Good Night Dear ones! ~~

FRAML< Good night, GREYMAN. See you tomorrow evening. Give my best to your lady. :)

5foot2< goodnight greyman ...

greyman< Namaste dear ones. *poof*.

LarryGC< We mess with the rain forest, we get extra snow and thunderstorms and tornadoes.

FRAML< I don't think so. That is just a bunch of hooey. To use the figures some of the pro-rain forest types give out about the number of acres being cut there, some one figured out, equals there being no trees remaining in either North or South America and all of Africa ... and I haven't noticed that all my trees are missing. Just scare tactics.

LarryGC< We are still affecting the weather. Over the long term. The added precipitation and earthquakes are just "corrections" that the planet is doing ... it's cleansing itself. Too bad for any of us who happen to get in it's way ... we get cleaned out, too.

FRAML< Time for me to scoot off to slumber land as well. (H'mm, no, I won't be sleeping in a well.)

LarryGC< take care FRAML, so nice to see you again.

FRAML< ***POOOOOOOOOOOF***

LarryGC< /topic Snow Snow Snow

5foot2< I must go now, too. Hmmm ... getting old sure is draining ... or maybe it was last nights margaritas. *grin* Positive energy -- may what you CHOOSE to share with the world come back to you times two ... CHOOSE wisely ...