Amazon Room
Sat, 31-Mar-2001

greyman< /topic open

Star12< hello?

greyman< Greetings, Star12.

Star12< How goes life ... here and there, greyman?

greyman< Star12, Vetae Est Laborum. *G*

greyman< {{{daCrone}}}

daCrone< hello (((greyman))) *S* and (((Star12))) *S* and (((suzie))) *S* ... seems I hit several rooms on my way here -- better take a minute to find my glasses and take a couple of deep breaths. LOL

Star12< hi daCrone, suzie ... sorry, am more on ICQ than here. Are the seminars Fri. or Sat. nights?

daCrone< Star12 ... that would be Saturday. *S* -- you're in right on time

FRAML< ((((((((((GREYMAN, STAR 12, DA CRONE)))))))))) H'mmm picking the toes of war could prove interesting.

daCrone< hello (((FRAML))) *VBS*

greyman< {{{FRAML}}}


LadyV< Ok, FRAML, sliding into base ...

daCrone< good evening (((LadyV))) *S*

greyman< {{{LadyV}}}

FRAML< GREYMAN -- What's up tonight? Do you have any really hip topics to discuss?

Star12< FRAML: What do you ... no ... how do you think we can change the atmosphere of this country ... so kids become kids ... that trust ... and those that are bullied don't use a gun? What would you think about getting rid of the second amendment?

greyman< FRAML, I'm here for an open topic seminar. Will honor any valid pursuit so long as it doesn't involve democratic politics. *G* OBTW, text review has been down since March 5, 2001.

Star12< Oooooooooooooooopppppppppppppsssssssssss greyman *g*

greyman< Star12 *G*

FRAML< Star12 -- I'm a retired hired killer.

Star12< LOL @ FRAML

FRAML< Star12 -- Keep the 2nd amendment. Today's problems don't lie in guns, it lies in not having an overlying moral code, a sense of right and wrong, and family. Today people consider life cheap, abortion is easy and makes life seem as a commodity to be thrown away.

Darkblade< FRAML: It all has to do with parenting. No matter who the finger gets pointed at, ultimately, its not teaching your kids that will cause problems such as we have now in the US ... IMO

Ishtahota< I agree with FRAML on that. If we want the government to be responsible for everything we do, we might as well be a dictatorship.

Star12< I agree with greyman ... anything but Republican politics.

FRAML< greyman -- to quote Franklin: "It's a Republic, if you can keep it."

greyman< FRAML: Received a book from the University of Maryland Book Exchange last Friday: "The Tragedy of American Compassion" by Marvin Olansky. Turns out it was required in some class at the University up until 1997.

Star12< FRAML: But being hired and kids getting guns from grandpa's unlocked closet are different ... you got paid!

FRAML< Star12: And they broke into the locked closet. When I was growing up, the rifles and shotguns were downstairs in a closet with built-in gun rack. I could get in there any time I wanted, but knew that they were not toys and I wasn't supposed to touch them without my grandfather or father being with me.

selki< You have to be honest with kids. Answer their questions and listen to them.

daCrone< selki: That is a good point. I was talking to one of my daughters about the recent shootings ... she said she believes the behavior is connected to parents not paying attention to kids & the kids' desires for attention ...

FRAML< Children are taught to fear guns, and told they are bad, and that makes them attractive. I played with toy guns all the time. I haven't shot a person yet.

Darkblade< Teaching to fear guns isn't right, no doubt. A healthy respect works, but not fear.

FRAML< My daughters know not to play with my rifles. They know the basics of gun safety, although my wife didn't like me teaching it to them. They've never fired one, though. I remember shooting my grandfather's old .22 single shot when I was 6.

selki< FRAML: My brothers were the same way. Heck, I even played with toy guns, but my dad taught us with real guns that they were not toys. I was on the rifle team in school. I think that a lot of parents are just plain irresponsible and aren't involved enough in their kid's life to even know what is going on in it.

Star12< Agree with the breakdown of morals ... but not the abortion part. And video games ... in some games, one gets points for how many are killed ... kids can't separate the real from the game. IMHO

Darkblade< Star12: I disagree, as a gamer all my life, and having children that play video games, as long as you can remind them the difference between a game and what's real. Again, a matter of parenting.

FRAML< Star 12: At the other end, we have folks pushing the idea of euthanasia, putting the elderly to death when they get sick or just inconvenient for the kids. The Dutch have legalized it, and I remember the Nazi's being condemned for doing it. I guess another of their ideas won.

Star12< Nazi's killed the Jews, FRAML, no matter the age. That's different. IMHO If someone is in horrible pain, with no hope of it ever ending, and WANTS euthanasia, they should be allowed to do so without disgrace.

FRAML< Star12: No, the Nazi euthanasia program was separate from the extermination camps. The Nazis had folks in hospitals who were declared to be burdens on society given lethal injections. They also included the mentally ill in this.

Star12< I know all of this, FRAML.

FRAML< Star12: Is there a difference between you wanting to receive a lethal injection because of the pain, and your children (if you were very old) deciding that dad just was too sick to cure and that it would be better for him to just be put to sleep?

FRAML< Also, I grew up in rural farm country. A rifle and shotgun were tools to be used properly. And I went to a grade school that had only 60 kids in 8 grades. Now look at the mega schools.

daCrone< My dad had guns ... it never occurred to me to mess with them.

selki< daCrone: I have two boys, and they played with cowboy guns and laser blasters and whatever else they could imagine, but they were taught that a real gun is not a toy, and they can never take one of pappy's (granddad's) guns. I never wanted real guns in the house. Now my youngest son belongs to a sportsman club where he goes to a shooting range and shoots targets. Neither one of them is interested in killing animals with it, or humans.

LEGS< We had guns in the house ... rifles ... 22's ... not pistols. During my first marriage, my husband and I belonged to a gun club fostered by the law enforcement agencies in the west Texas area. We did bench shooting (*G* they don't run so fast ... easier to hit) and other target shooting ... prone, etc. We also loaded ammunition for the various law enforcement officers.

Darkblade< My wife won't let guns in the house.

greyman< The media seems to have a formula to propagate the shootings: (1) They (the media) interview people who knew the perpetrator(s). (2) Media coverage makes the perpetrator(s) instant celebrities. (3) Media educates future perpetrator(s). The sadness continues.

FRAML< greyman: And then the copy cats begin. But I read a couple of months ago that shootings in schools are actually down over the last 10 years. It is just that now the ones that happen involve a large number of people being shot.

LEGS< Celebrity status is not the same as notoriety ... and evil is evil whatever age the perpetrator.

greyman< LEGS, agreed.

Star12< Agree, LEGS ... Well, the non-speller got you a topic, and now she will quietly leave. ((hugs))

daCrone< (((Star12))) LOL and blessings

greyman< Star12, Peace. *G*

daCrone< I have to ask myself: At what age did I realize death? When did I realize evil?

Darkblade< If I had had a gun when I was around 12-14, I could of been one of those kids you hear about. BUT, I didn't.

Ishtahota< SO, what are we saying here? Are we saying all things have creative and destructive force in them? And the responsibility lays on the shoulders of who uses those forces?

greyman< Ishtahota: May the force be with you. *G*.

selki< Ishtahota: I can't see an inanimate object with a creative or destructive force "in them". However I do feel that it is our responsibility to teach kids right from wrong. The weapon is not going to decide to kill someone; it needs a human to pull the trigger ... get it?

Ishtahota< selki: Look at this. A plant has properties in it that affect our bodies. Lets say we are in pain and we use the plant to stop the pain till we can heal the problem. Taking responsibility for the use of the plant means checking our intent for the use of it. The creative force in the plant can stop pain or even heals. The destructive side can damage other organs through prolonged use. Checking our intent to see if we just want to get high. An explosive can drill a hole in the ground which can benefit us in some ways. Setting it off on a city street during rush hour.

LEGS< On the other hand, a lot of the shootings now are done with assault weapons ... AK-47s ... automatic rifles ... even grenades. The availability of these weapons is what I think should be controlled ... even stopped.

FRAML< LEGS: "Assault weapons" is a misnomer in the press. "Assault rifles" are already illegal unless you have special permits to own them, or are a criminal who doesn't care. It is the firing mechanism that determines where or not an "assault rifle" is one, not what it looks like. I've seen the press call a 5 shot pump shotgun an "assault weapon".

LEGS< Agreed, FRAML. You know, however, that I do know the difference. I was trying to make a point ... it is NOT the weapon. You can kill with your bare hands ... I could ... if my children/grandchildren were in danger.

daCrone< (((LEGS))) *S*

selki< (((LEGS)))

FRAML< LEGS: Yes, but others may not. They are the ones I was addressing. And the kid in the last shooting had, according to one report, "an assault revolver". It was an eight shot .22 pistol, revolver style. But that doesn't meet the press's criteria for sounding bad enough.

LEGS< It is not the weapon ... really ... it is the use ... the intent of the user. People can be killed by being shoved down with sufficient force to crack their heads open or break their necks.

greyman< I would prefer a good old fashioned psychic zap! But like the Zen archer, if used, it violates the ability!

Darkblade< I want an AK-47. I really do.

greyman< Darkblade: M-16 is accurate and ammo is lighter. *G*

Darkblade< greyman: Yeah ... but AK-47s look meaner ... *LOL* ... *RAMBO*

selki< Darkblade: Ya, my son wants one, too. He just bought a M-1 (I think it is). He takes it to the range and blasts stuff with it.

FRAML< selki: The M-1 Garand is much better for target shooting and hunting. All you do with an AK-47 is waste ammo spraying the target, at least in the military automatic version.

Darkblade< FRAML: Nothing like fraggin' a few targets.

selki< FRAML: That's what he bought, the M-1 Garand. I remember him saying that to my brother.

LEGS< The problem is the attitude that kids have ... that is being fostered in them ... from different sources ... but I feel it is all part of the devil's plan ... or am I just being old fashioned??

Darkblade< LEGS: Could be. No one knows. But my personal opinion is that most of the problem lies in the parents who raise these kids. Obviously, something went wrong.

FRAML< It is in how we teach our youth. Today we have: "create your own reality," situation ethics, and there is no truth, just opinion. All contribute to a cheapening of life, because there is no respect for others included in those, they are all centered on 'what I want' and that is all that is important.

Darkblade< I am not against guns of any type. The guns are not the problem here. Even if they were illegal you could get one easily.

selki< It's not hard to get a gun. I think that -- ohh, I hate to use the word kid and not a specific age group, but they are so impressionable, hey! they see something on TV, and they'll imitate it sometimes to the point of obsession. Look at the 12 year old kid that killed the little girl in Florida because he was practicing wrestling moves on her. He pile-drived her repeatedly. So a kid can kill with or without a gun.

greyman< Darkblade: Hate to amplify the observation, but the "RAMBO" type is the first guy taken out in a fire fight. Hollywood hype!

Darkblade< greyman: I would be hiding far, far away, really. *LOL* I don't like violence ... and guns do make me very nervous.

Ishtahota< I think we need to look at history and stop calling things good and evil. Has anyone ever seen the devil destroy a people or a country? Or was it a persons self-serving greed and over-inflated ego? You know people who want power over others just for the sake of power.

LEGS< Here in St. Louis, a week ago on Friday, a ten year old boy was mauled to death by un-owned loose "Park" dogs. His body was found on Sunday. When his mother was contacted, she didn't know he was missing ... he had left to go to see friends and sometimes spent the nite somewhere ... she said. Since then, they have arrested her on weapons charges. Too bad she didn't use the weapons to kill the stray dogs that had been terrorizing the neighborhood for months.

Darkblade< I sat down with my 8 year old after this last school shooting and told him what had happened. We talked about guns and murder. I was very happy to see that he reacted with sadness and couldn't understand why a child would kill another child, or anyone for that matter. I just hope he keeps that attitude.

greyman< Darkblade: Maybe expectations. Most families have both parents working. A lot of single parents work and expect the over crowed schools to educate children and give some abstract moral guidance. Teachers burned out expect parents to get more "involved" and little Johnny sees that he has little or no future. When life becomes meaningless, death becomes apparent.

Darkblade< greyman: I have been there. My mom was a single working mother and I was a "latch key kid". Had to go it alone. And there was a point in time where I didn't care about anyone or anything. If I would of had a gun at that point and time, I can say that I probably would have taken out a few kids. Back then, I didn't have a future, didn't care, and thought no one else did either. It took 2 years of counseling & treatment to get my self esteem back. And a few people who did care and had the time to spend with me.

greyman< Darkblade: For what its worth, I can remember prayers in school after the "Pledge of Allegiance". Social problems seem to have exploded after 1963 when prayers were outlawed. Our nation has lost it's moral "compass".

selki< greyman: It wasn't just the outlaw of prayer in the public schools; it was a lot of things including the civil rights issue.

Darkblade< greyman: I agree, there is a definite moral decline. I don't know if putting some religion back in school would help, but it certainly couldn't hurt!

kemokae< Hi ... was checking out to see what everyone was talking about. The school shootings were indeed sad. I think for the kid there must be more to it than appears. I am wondering if he is another one of the divorced kids that think they have no place to go or perhaps that the mother needs support and the only way is through him at his age ... or maybe he wouldn't get the chance to ever see her again because of his dad having custody. The other kids picking on him probably was the "reason" but not the base problem.


kemokae< FRAML: Is it true that you're going into surgery soon, on your hip? Will light my "prayer candles" for you. *Hugs*

FRAML< kemokae: Yes, May 2nd. Total hip joint replacement on my right hip.

kemokae< FRAML: My cousin had this done in her early 20's and you would never know it now. Good Luck ... will be thinking of you.

FRAML< kemokae: Thank you.

Ishtahota< And look at World War 1 and 2. Did God or Jesus come down and save the world? The power and the ideas come to us, but it has always been humans who killed or healed.

FRAML< Ishtahota: To me, getting rid of the idea of good and evil is what is contributing to what is going on. People say "Nothing is good or evil. There is no right or wrong." To me that would result in me thinking that I can do whatever I want, and don't have to be concerned about its affect on others, because they aren't my responsibility.

Ishtahota< FRAML: And this is why I had the class on duality.

FRAML< Ishtahota: Which to me was really talking about hypocrisy (saying to believe one way and acting in the opposite), rather than things being either good or bad with nothing in between.

selki< Ishtahota: I respect you, but I cannot accept inanimate objects having any force within the object itself. It's different with a living force like the plant that you mentioned. Yes, we have to take responsibility, which would be wise intent on the usage, but an inanimate object does not act with any force of it's own. I do understand what you are saying. I don't think you understand what I am saying.

Ishtahota< selki: The atom and its force can destroy. The atom bomb. Or you can use it to create electricity.

selki< Ishtahota: Yes, it can, can't it? And humans utilized the atom to create the bomb.

FRAML< selki: And the Japanese made it to create Godzilla and all their monster movie mutant villain animals/reptiles.

greyman< Oooohhhh! Gawdzirra!

Darkblade< Oh no ... there goes Tokiyo ... a go go Godzilla!

Ishtahota< You all are kicking it in the butt so hard.

kemokae< I wish in all my heart I knew how many of the kids of divorced parents feel an "obligation" to take care of their mother for some reason. I think maybe some of it is because the father refuses to pay child support without custody. I saw many of these kids with mothers re-married and living in huge expensive homes, and yet these kids were made to feel "homeless" and live in an underground sort of way with "friends".

selki< kemokae: Ya, I've seen that with some of my boys' friends. Mother remarries, kicks the kid out to keep peace with the new hubby, kid is only allowed in house when the step-dad isn't there, and then has to leave again. This kid lived out on the streets until I let him stay at my house.

greyman< Darkblade: What would you replace it with?

Darkblade< greyman: Prayer, you mean? I am all for it. Or at least a moment of silence. I think schools need to become smaller and have more counselors. I got lucky and was sent to an alternative center here, was only 40 kids in the school. And I got a lot more out of that than I would of a regular high school.

kemokae< Darkblade: You know what scares me with the little kids? They got a ring of people stealing little ten year old girls off the streets out here ... making them do porno video's and then making them into prostitutes in Japan, British Columbia, and down the coast ... all the while promising them they can go home again someday. They caught three of them the other day, but there's apparently a bigger ring of people in it. They have tried *twice* this week to force little girls into a car and were foiled ... and this is what lead to the arrests they have made so far.

Darkblade< kemokae: That's sad, sick and frightening.

kemokae< Darkblade: You wanna bet it is. SICKO! Kids are far too precious to be treated this way. I think there is a place for home education on computers now perhaps. At least in part ...

Ishtahota< When we do not want to be responsible for our actions, we have to enter duality to live with ourselves. What is going on in this room right now is a reflection of that. We enter these little dramas with people like we have here and now. This is the reflection of our own split nature. We put up a topic and then we all chose sides and the drama starts to play out.

FRAML< Ishtahota: I have always considered myself responsible for my actions. I have made wrong decisions, but I was responsible for making them, and accepted the consequences.

Ishtahota< FRAML: And most people are responsible, but duality hides deep inside of us on many levels. Have you ever meet a woman you could not understand. Ever wonder why?

FRAML< Yes, but I didn't speak Italian.

Darkblade< *LOL* @ FRAML

Ishtahota< I give up.

LadyV< Ishtahota: Never!! [smiling]

Hellcat7< (Ishtahota) *S* What's the topic? *S*

Ishtahota< Hellcat7: Who knows!!!!!

Hellcat7< (Ishtahota) *G* I'll maybe wait until the conversation settles down. *S*

Darkblade< Hi hellcat :)

greyman< Darkblade: Because of the "Social Engineering" of the "Great Society" of the 60's we as a Nation have produced a generation of poorly educated television fed automata, mostly asleep. They won't wake up until it is too late. Like old Pink Floyd said: "And one day you find, 10 years has got behind you, no one told you when to run, you missed the starting gun."

kemokae< And this IS part of the problem ... we don't have the type of "ego" that tells us we shouldn't stoop that low, and I heard on a Christian radio that maybe our "non-violent" ways are not helping. We shouldn't be out there shouting for peace as we should be for what is "right" perhaps. I think the "kid" that did the shooting needed someone to make him feel like he was loved and wanted. But I got to thinking about what he did ... and provided he didn't see something on TV, I am wondering if he felt that he wouldn't be a "bother" to his parents doing what he did ... financially perhaps.

selki< What about the moral issues of human cloning? How far are they going to go with this?

Darkblade< selki: They will go all the way. As far as they can possibly go no doubt.

selki< Darkblade: I think they will, too, I wouldn't be a bit surprised if it hasn't already been done.

Darkblade< selki: Yeah, its probably already done to an extent. They say that the government is 50 years ahead in technology, compared to what is in the public.

greyman< selki: Future civil rights issues. *G*.

kemokae< The kids are made very aware of the cost of things these days over a lot of other concerns. You got to admit, if he feels he is a burden to others, in a prison setting he will be taken care of for life. Kids in their own way at this age are smart enough to think of something like this without the consequences of doing it. Especially when they hear so many say that those that only get "life" get paroled. And its true, at his age he doesn't need to spend the rest of his life behind bars in jail.

kemokae< bit garbled ... hum.

Darkblade< kemokae: typing too fast ... *G* I do that all the time. :)

kemokae< I say give the kid a puppy and observe him with it. It will tell you the truth as to what kind of a person he really is.

FRAML< Tis midnight and that is the witching hour for me. I must slink off to slumberville.

kemokae< I am bouncing back also to Stonehenge ... for a bit ... just washed the carpeting and thought I would check E-mails. Poofies*

greyman< Good night FRAML, I'm off as well. Good night dear ones. ~~

Darkblade< Peace greyman!

FRAML< Good night all. Thanks for the discussion.

Darkblade< PEACE FRAML!

kemokae< nite, FRAML. *smiles*

LEGS< (((((FRAML))))))

selki< Nite FRAML

Ishtahota< Night FRAML!!

FRAML< **********POOOOOOOOOF************

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