Amazon Room
Sat, 28 April 2001
Open Forum

guitarist< Shalom. FRAML and all who join us for our seminar. Where are you all? It's getting late! :)

FRAML< Hello (((GUITARIST))) I just got off the phone with my mother. (sigh)

guitarist< FRAML: Poor guy! I don't envy you. (sigh)

greyman< Namaste dear ones.

FRAML< (((greyman))) Good evening. Ben said that he might drop in tonight.

guitarist< Hey, there, Mr. Greyman, play a song for me, I'm not sleepy and there ain't no place I'm goin' to ... :)

greyman< guitarist, what a long strange trip it's been. *G*

FRAML< guitarist, I've had two folks suggest I ought to move my computer upstairs. Unfortunately I don't know where to put it in my room that I could use it from the bed.

guitarist< That would make sense, FRAML, if you could do it. Maybe you need to buy a rolling computer desk of some kind, with a movable keyboard shelf so that you could bring it close to you whenever you needed it.

FRAML< It is to late to buy anything I need to assemble, besides not that much room for it there.

greyman< {{{FRAML}}} Well how are you @ T-3 Days? Are we still go for bionics?

FRAML< greyman: Yep, except you can call me 'stainless steel' man, no bionic stuff in me.

guitarist< I hope the laptop idea wouldn't be too painful for you, FRAML, sitting it on your lap and all.

FRAML< greyman: Do you have an extra PC laptop?

greyman< FRAML, no just a spare Power Mac laptop. Do you need it?

FRAML< greyman: I would greatly appreciate the loan until I'm able to negotiate the stairs to get down here. Also this is where the big 32 inch TV is. I've got a small set in the bedroom.

guitarist< FRAML: It wasn't too bad for me operating a Mac when I visited you guys and we were the Bethany Mob. You could do it too.

FRAML< greyman: I still have my old 28.8 modem. If it could be rigged with AOL and then I could be on-line from my bedroom.

greyman< FRAML: No need. It has a pcmcia modem. You will need to be checked out. I will bring it in Sunday night.

FRAML< greyman: OK. I've got an AOL version 6 on a CD ROM I can bring.

greyman< FRAML: You may use it as long as you need it. It is my pleasure, friend.

FRAML< greyman: Thank you. H'm I know I can access my account, recreating my bookmarks won't be too hard, if they aren't on the main AOL computer when I log in. I know I can still get, or should get my addresses because I can access them when I check my AOL mail from work.

greyman< FRAML: Yes just "mail" them to yourself.

FRAML< H'm, my address book has a button that says print. I'm going to press it and see if the actual addresses are printed out.

guitarist< LOL @ FRAML -- that could be a while if you have a lot of addresses!

FRAML< It is on the 4th page now, and just quit.

guitarist< FRAML: I guess you could be considered a member of the "zipper club" when this is all over.

FRAML< Nothing has been said about needing to insert a zipper. It should be good for 15+ years. I don't know if they are going to sew me up or just staple me shut.

greyman< guitarist, the "zipper club" is reserved for cardiac patients.

FRAML< Aren't cardiyak patients those who talk incessantly while playing canasta?

guitarist< Hey, I'm sorry about that. I thought that any scar from being cut open would make a "zipper."

Mixie< FRAML: The laptop is wonderful in bed. I got my first on the day after surgery in 1995.

FRAML< Hello Mixie. Good to see you tonight.

guitarist< Hello there, Mixie ... and Ben!

FRAML< (((BEN)))

Ben< Greetings, one and all. Namaste.

Mixie< Hi FRAML - greyman - Ben - guitarist. It's Good to be back!

Ben< I heard that a lady who had a second Cesarean said they should have installed a zipper.

guitarist< That must have been my mother-in-law! My husband was born in the Cesarean manner and that was the last time his mother did anything like that.

FRAML< Ben: If they used some lettuce they could have had a nice salad there.

guitarist< (My mother-in-law, may she rest in peace.)

FRAML< Both my daughters came that way. the oldest was an emergency situation. The youngest was scheduled "C", but they did her a day early. The doctor had a 'feeling' in the back of his neck when wife went in for the final check the afternoon before the surgery. They found that the baby had the umbilical cord wrapped around her leg and that would have cut off the blood supply if he had waited until the next day. I'm glad he trusted his 'neck'.

guitarist< BTW, how *are* your daughters, FRAML?

FRAML< Lindsey has a new digital hearing aid and she is ACTUALLY WEARING IT. She can hear stuff she has never heard before, such as she never knew that the keys on this keyboard made a clicking sound when they were pressed.

Mixie< FRAML: That's great ! that Lindsey is wearing the hearing aid.

FRAML< This one is a loner to see if she would wear it. The one we are buying will be in in a couple of weeks. It will also have a directional feature so that she can focus it on the person in front of her and thus cut out all other noise. And she said that even this one without that feature cuts out a lot of the magnification of background noise that drown out voices.

Mixie< Sounds like hearing aids have come a long way. My mom, may she rest in peace, had one. When she and my dad ate at the diner, she would tell him to hush up because she was listening to the conversation in another booth -- which he couldn't hear.

FRAML< Lindsey quit wearing her old one to school because all the noise in the classroom drowned out the teacher. She could hear the teacher better without the hearing aid.

guitarist< FRAML: And now she has a new device that encourages compliance. That's progress!

FRAML< Sarah is doing well. She danced with the liturgical dance group on Easter. She is getting A's & B's in school, although she isn't going for full days yet. She is there in the afternoon and being tutored in the other 2 classes two mornings a week. Her tutor told her that she should pass on to the 8th grade if she keeps up her grades.

guitarist< I'm so happy for you, FRAML, that your children are doing so well. Many blessings to all!

FRAML< Ben: Are you being the strong, silent type tonight?

Ben< I can second what FRAML said about his daughter Sarah. She is doing very well. Bright and alert and open and interested. Great improvement from a few months ago.

guitarist< Maybe Ben is being the helpful, silent type. He and greyman haven't been talking for a while ... maybe they're whispering to each other.

guitarist< My post must have come just after Ben posted ... oh well.

Ben< I ... type ... slow ... and I recheck because I don't like to post bad spelling.

guitarist< Ben: From what I see around here sometimes, you're fortunate to be able to spell. And punctuate. :)

FRAML< Mixie & guitarist: I'd like for you two to meet. Mixie has been to our Sunday night group a few times. Guitarist has been in the seminars regularly for nearly 2 years now, and we met her at Bethany Beach last year.

guitarist< Very nice to meet you, Mixie. (Guitarist extends a hand to shake)

Mixie< Hi guitarist! Glad to meet you. It sounded like you knew these guys pretty well. I'm going to have to come to Bethany for another visit soon!

guitarist< Yes, Mixie, definitely! I highly recommend them. If I weren't Jewish, I would be a Disciple. I really like their pastor as well. I had the privilege of being at Bethany's last retreat in September. That's where I met FRAML, Greyman and Lor (and some others too) in 3-D. Yeah, it's been nearly a year and a half since I started coming to these seminars.

FRAML< H'mmmm, back in the first century the disciples were just another Jewish sect.

Mixie< ((( guitarist))): That's pretty funny. The 12 original "Disciples" were Jews.

guitarist< Yeah, you had to remind me, FRAML and Mixie. Just remember why you're all not Jews now. It was your spiritual ancestors who wanted to get away from Judaism. (smile)

Mixie< guitarist: Studying my genealogy -- my great-grandmother was Rachel Cohen from Romania. (BIG smile).

greyman< Mixie: One of my distant relatives was a very crusty "mountain man" by the name of Return Redden. He was the personal body guard of founder of the Mormon religion.

Ben< guitarist: I've heard it said that Jesus was a Jew who took his religion seriously. It was presented by a teacher at an ecumenical retreat, as an intentionally controversial statement, but I thought there was some merit to it.

guitarist< Oh, yes, Ben. I agree that there is a lot of merit to that. It's a shame that knowing this would be controversial, but that's what ultimately came of the original split.

FRAML< Hello (((Ishtahota)))

guitarist< (((Ishtahota!)))

Ishtahota< FRAML and all: AhHo!!

Ben< greyman: How's your situation working out at this point?

greyman< Ben: So much has happened. But I think what the tip of the datadome must be the interaction with one of our congregation who recently had a stroke. I visited her last Wednesday. I observed that when she stumbled on her spoken words she would get upset and stumble more. I looked into her and told her to relax. When she did, her voice patterns became clean and free flowing. I felt a little of her pain. Reviewed her options with a clear mind. When I left the hospital I noticed having more energy. That just isn't fair. I was reminded of my earlier days with Mr. Darling and the nursing home ministries.

FRAML< greyman: Good work with her.

greyman< FRAML: Just fortunate to be in the loop.

guitarist< Sounds great, greyman! I need to get with you guys more often, too.

Ben< greyman: Bob visited her recently. She said, "I should be doing something to help around here." A man in a wheelchair nearby overheard her and said, "Nah. Look at me. I'm retired, so I'm letting them do things for me." Bob said she relaxed and smiled and turned to the man and started talking with him. That all seemed very appropriate to me. There is help available in unexpected places and unexpected forms. (And yes, I was also thinking of your work in nursing homes with Mr. Darling.)

FRAML< Hello RainboDragon.

RainboDragon< Hello FRAML and all *s*

guitarist< Hello, RainboDragon. You're very pretty!

RainboDragon< (((guitarist))) *s*

FRAML< (((5foot2)))

guitarist< (((5foot2!))) from 5foot2 and a half!

FRAML< Hello (((GARDENGIRL & suitESPirit)))

suitESPirit< Blessings and greetings to all ...

guitarist< (((Gardengirl))) and (((SuitESPirit)))!!! Great to see you!

suitESPirit< Sorry I missed the seminar. Guess I'm not with it. Thank you guitarist. Nice seeing you also.

FRAML< ESP: You haven't missed anything. We've just been chatting. I was talking about going in for my hip replacement surgery on Wednesday. Some work that has been done with helping folks in a nursing home, and introducing Mixie & guitarist whom Ben, greyman & I know, but they have never met in person as we have with both.

guitarist< Yes. This is interesting. :)

FRAML< (((LadyV))) Welcome.

LadyV< Hi FRAML and all ...

guitarist< (((LadyV))) I thought you might drop by. I just flew over the chatrooms a few minutes ago and noticed you were around.

LadyV< guitarist: [smiling] got it ...

guitarist< Exactly, LadyV ... when I use the WhoIsWhere, I seem to be flying above the chatrooms.

LadyV< guitarist: I had to look in the WhoIsWhere. My luck on Saturday night with this server is not so good ... too, much traffic on the circuits, I think.

Ben< ESP & LadyV, Howdy! Long time ...

LadyV< Hi Ben ...

Ben< RainboDragon: Hello! Your nickname produces iridescent mental images. :)

guitarist< Ben: You should click on the name! The dragon on that page is not quite as iridescent as it sounds, but is pretty.

RainboDragon< Hello, Ben. *s* Is it good or bad?

Ben< RainboDragon: It is good. Iridescent is pretty colors. Lots of them.

guitarist< RainboDragon and Ben: The iridescence seems to be mainly in the wings and the tufts around the head. Very nice!

RainboDragon< Ben: So, no color is bad?

Ben< RainboDragon: All colors are good in my view. Colorless has some negative connotations in some folks' vocabulary, but water is colorless, and that isn't bad.

RainboDragon< Ben: Maybe because water just reflects colors? But I have a question: white and black are considered "no colors" -- black because it contains no color and white because it contains all colors. Why then when you put all colors over each other it actually turns black?

Ben< RainboDragon: White and black are colors. The physics of seeing colors is different for radiant light and reflected light. The combination of all wavelengths of radiant light is seen as white light. The combination of all wavelengths of reflected light (that is, from all pigments) is seen as black.

FRAML< Oh, my! Yawns are breaking out. I'm the one who is doing it. I woke up at my regular workday time this morning and didn't get back to sleep like I usually do on Saturdays.

greyman< Good night dear ones. See you tomorrow FRAML. ~~

FRAML< Sleep well greyman, & don't forget to count your blessings ... and from what you wrote tonight you've a couple of new ones to add to your memory pouch.

Mixie< (((greyman)))

Ben< greyman: Good night, amigo, and blessings always.

guitarist< Good night, dear greyman. Please give my regards to Verity. Blessings on you both.

FRAML< H'm going back to a much earlier part of tonight: Were there Cesarean births before Caesar? Sort of like which came first, the cardinal bird or the cardinal churchman?

LadyV< FRAML: Considering that skull surgery was around so early, I imagine C sections were possible. The idea was, I guess, if it hurts, get it out any way you can. Must have had to use special plants to handle it. You know, I never thought about that ...

Ben< FRAML: As I understand it, C-sections were known before Caesar, but acquired that name because that's how (Augustus?) Caesar was delivered. But doctors didn't do C-sections for several centuries in fairly recent times. They started being used again after a Swiss man did one to save his wife and child, after the doctors refused.

FRAML< Ben: H'm I always thought it referred to Julius. Oh well.

LadyV< Which chapter is it in the Old Testament next to Numbers? I think that talks about begat ... and begatting? I cannot spell it ... starts with a C ... Think it means ancestral line ... not sure ... this begat ...

FRAML< I thought it was Rabbitlation.

LadyV< FRAML: Rabbitlation? FRAML you rogue ... [laughing]

FRAML< LadyV: That is a new moniker you have given me. Do you put it above or below 'rascal?'

LadyV< FRAML: Above 'rascal' [grinning]

FRAML< Thank you LadyV. *G*

Ben< LadyV: Chronicles? Traces descendants -- as each generation "begat" the next.

guitarist< I think you speak of Chronicles, O LadyV. And "begat" is an old word for "give birth to."

Spirit_Sword< Leviticus is before Numbers, and Deuteronomy is after. First Chronicles starts with the census. Good evening room!

guitarist< Welcome, Spirit_Sword!

LadyV< Welcome Spirit_Sword ...

FRAML< Hello Spirit_Sword.

LadyV< Thank you. In Chronicles 1 chapter 4 verse 9 we find Jadez ... right in the middle of all this begat ... and his name in Hebrew means pain [I think] and his mother had him in sorrow. Now my question is, why is he there in the middle of all those facts, and why did God answer his prayer to be spared from suffering, as it states in the next couple of verses? Then we go back to reading about the begats. It is the strangest thing ... been puzzling over that all day.

Spirit_Sword< Open forum, I like that! Is there a topic?

FRAML< Spirit_Sword: We've just been having a relaxed chat tonight. The first time we've all gathered in several weeks. Just catching up on what we've been doing, rather than an in-depth discussion on a specific topic. We've talked about pending surgeries, visiting people in hospitals and how to spiritually help them, and general catching up with what has been going on in our lives that we want to share.

Ben< Spirit_Sword: Hello. Welcome. In open forum, whoever is present may suggest a topic or raise a question, as LadyV just did.

FRAML< Spirit Sword: If you click on Ben's name and then click on "seminars" on his page, you will find transcripts of seminars for the last 3 years. He also has a link to greyman's site which has the transcripts for the last few months. H'm I just remembered I've got to add a link to greyman's site from mine.

Spirit_Sword< Thank you room! LadyV, as far as I can see, Jabeth was "more honorable than the rest" as scripture states, and he asked God to bless him, and He did. I think this just states to us that God is so eager to bless us! If we but ask.

LadyV< Spirit_Sword: Seems reasonable ... How was Jabez more honorable than the rest? Did he pray more ... praise more?

Spirit_Sword< LadyV: Perhaps he just had morals?

LadyV< Spirit_Sword: That is possible.

Spirit_Sword< I cannot comprehend how barbarian those times must have been, and men caved into natural lusts. Lust of blood, flesh, sex, and murder. Probably incest, stealing, and a lot of criminal behavior. They basically knew no better. Self survival and satisfaction were the two most basic wants.

FRAML< Spirit_Sword: And some today don't know any better either.

Spirit_Sword< You are so right, FRAML. Self seems to be the focus of many.

Spirit_Sword< Apparently, God was able to touch a few. He cannot and will not go over our will, but Jabez must have relinquished his own will to God at some point, and therefore God could mold him and use him.

LadyV< Interesting that it said "Keep me from evil that it might not grieve me ... "

Spirit_Sword< Of course, evil does grieve us. Eventually, one who has chosen the path of evil will be sorely grieved.

guitarist< I think Jabez might have been praying that he would not have to do (be forced or drawn into) evil so that it would not wound his conscience. He must have been an insightful man in youth.

LadyV< guitarist: That's a good point ...

Spirit_Sword< It is comforting for me to know that Jabez asked God to bless him and He did. I know that God will do the same for me! That is such a wonderful thing!

guitarist< Welcome, seven.

FRAML< Hello seven.

seven< Hello all ... *VBS* Thanks for the warm welcome. Such wonderful energy in here ... {{{HUG}}}

LadyV< Jabez in effect asked for the moon ... literally ... safety, land, no sinners to aggravate him ... and God gave it to him ... because he was honorable. Spirit_Sword: And honor is morals, then?

Spirit_Sword< Of course, LadyV. Honor is integrity, keeping one's word, righteousness, obeying the law, doing the right thing, even when no one is there to see it.

LadyV< No more than this? Honor is more than this ... on a scale of 1-10 what is first on honor list?

Spirit_Sword< Honor is trust. Knowing you can depend on someone means that person must be honorable. Honor is respect. An honorable person draws respect. Honor is wisdom. An honorable man trusts in God and seeks His wisdom.

LadyV< Honor is trust ... I like that ... thank you.

guitarist< Morals are honorable in many ways. and engender many good deeds, including charity and chivalry! That makes some sense of the scripture we are discussing.

LadyV< guitarist: true ...

Spirit_Sword< That is pure wisdom, guitarist! The kind that comes from above!

guitarist< Thank you, Spirit_Sword. *blushing*

FRAML< It is time for me to attend evening services at St. Sealy's. Thanks to all for coming here tonight. I'll be seeing you all in a couple of weeks, after my surgery.

LadyV< night, FRAML

FRAML< TO ALL: Remember to count your blessings before you sleep.

Ben< ALL: Later this week, I will be posting updates on FRAML's recovery from surgery.

FRAML< Ben: The first one will be: "No need for anesthetic, FRAML fainted upon the sight of the operating room."

LadyV< Ben: thank you.

FRAML< Good Night, all.

Spirit_Sword< Good night, FRAML. I will pray that your surgery goes well, and your recovery is quick and painless. God bless!

FRAML< Spirit Sword: Thank you.

guitarist< Blessings on FRAML ... sleep well and deeply, dear heart!

Ben< FRAML: Sleep well, my friend.

FRAML< *****POOOOOF*****

LadyV< *Glancing through the chapter up until David appears* ... do not see any other at this time that has such importance ... so what I will do is attempt to trace this man down in the resources. Thinking to myself that here stands a Godly man ... in the midst of all those sinners ... and it makes me very curious ...

guitarist< I imagine that there was peer pressure in Jabez' day as well as in ours, and I'm sure he chose to be good and to do good. Most of us don't live as hermits, so praying that others don't draw us into evil is, I feel, essential: as also is learning to resist others' attempts to draw us into whatever evil they might be doing at the moment. :)

LadyV< guitarist: And as in the Lord's Prayer "Deliver us not into evil." You know ... that makes sense ... choice then ...

Spirit_Sword< I heard someone teach on Jabez once, and he noted the contrast of his life and name. Jabez, born out of pain, blessed abundantly by God. That should strike hope in us all. And just because he was somewhat honorable. Because scripture also states that there are no honorable men on earth; i.e., "for there is none righteous, no not one" but Jabez just happened to be "More honorable" than the others. "For all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God."

guitarist< Yes, I agree, Spirit_Sword.

Ben< When I think of the word "honorable" another word comes to mind: trust-worthy.

LadyV< Ben: Thinking you are right, as with Spirit_Sword.

[Ben< LadyV: I was looking at the difference between trusting and trust-worthy.]

RainboDragon< Ben: The ray of light is divided into a spectrum of colors; what is the ray of darkness divided into?

Ben< RainboDragon: Darkness doesn't radiate; it is the absence of radiant light. Dark objects absorb light of all wavelengths (colors).

RainboDragon< Ben: You said that black is a color ?

Ben< RainboDragon: Yes, black is a color. Blackness and darkness aren't the same, in physics or in spirituality. :)

LadyV< Spirit_Sword: I have not heard a sermon on Jabez ... and I am learning tonight about Jabez. We are all born in pain, but not all blessed abundantly by God ... so as you said earlier, he was honorable and God heard him. Then God also heard others ... in that time one could contend with God ... according to my reading of the Old Testament ... and Jabez just stood ... nothing fancy about him ... he just stood and prayed ... I think.

Spirit_Sword< The main point is, Jabez "asked" God to bless him. He believed that God would. This is faith. And, like I said earlier, somehow God got through to Jabez, in a culture that had many gods, and idols. There were few Jewish people and many pagans.

LadyV< Spirit_Sword: He asked ... He believed or had hope ... and this is faith. [smiling] Maybe we got it ... it comes down to that ... yes ... very simple.

Spirit_Sword< Many people argue about a "wrathful and vengeful" God, but the people of those times were absolutely barbaric! Some of the other cultures actually sacrificed their own children to appease an idol. When God "blessed" the Jewish nation, they had war with these peoples who practiced evil. "Keep me from evil that it may not grieve me." The grief they suffered was the loss of land and life. Some may call it "karma." Some say, "What goes around comes around," or some such saying, but still it remains true. Scripture says, "What we sow we shall reap."

LadyV< I agree that what we sow we reap.

guitarist< Thank you, Spirit_Sword, for the insight. Barbaric deeds ask for a strong response. (These times are growing more barbaric as they proceed. I wouldn't be surprised if some were not already sacrificing their children in secret.)

Spirit_Sword< guitarist: So, do you study the scriptures? // And LadyV: What prompted you to pick up your bible? If you don't mind my asking. I sort of gathered, Dear Lady, that you have no real familiarity with the Holy Bible because you were not sure of the order of the O.T. Books. Sorry for the bold question, but I was just curious as to why you decided to start studying? Do not feel obligated, either one of you, to answer me. I was just being nosy. My apologies.

LadyV< Thank you all. I will research this a bit more, I'm intrigued by this Jabez. Probably keep me up half the night ... but sometimes one finds something that catches the imagination. I think his Mother had a lot to do with it ... that is my feeling ... since she was also mentioned.

guitarist< Yes, LadyV, I imagine Jabez felt his name to be a curse from his mother. Now that I look at the verse afresh, I see that he wanted to be free from pain because his very name would seem to bring it on. He sought to overcome his "destiny" (predicted in his name) and G-d honored him.

LadyV< guitarist: Thank you ... that is interesting. His destiny is predicted in his name according to tradition then?

guitarist< LadyV: You may notice that tendency in other Hebrew scriptures. Joseph means "he will add;" G-d sometimes changes names to give a different meaning: Avram (Abram: father) to Avraham (Abraham: father of many nations); Jacob (supplanter) to Israel (prince of G-d)

Spirit_Sword< guitarist: I know you are a student now! You just know too much! Where do you study?

LadyV< Guitarist: I agree with Spirit_Sword -- you are informed. Thank you.

CHALE< Hello every one, I'm writing in search of some advice or simply a suggestion of any kind. I'm an 18 year old from Texas who is searching for a way to open my inner self to release my natural given ability to be a strong, good hearted individual.

Spirit_Sword< Welcome Chale! We can try to help.

LadyV< CHALE welcome ...

Spirit_Sword< He ... he ... he ... what timing!

CHALE< Throughout my early childhood my life's path was blocked by negative energy, and I feel that if I apply myself, I can use my mind, body and soul to play a positive role for my 3 year old and myself.

Spirit_Sword< Well, Chale, that you can. ** S **

LadyV< CHALE: You have a 3 year old ... wonderful!

CHALE< Hello LadyV.

RainboDragon< Ben: Isn't black the darkness, as some say, the absence of light? What is so different between physics and spirituality then?

Ben< RainboDragon: Concepts and perceptions of light are similar, not different, in physics and spirituality. For one example, among many others that came to mind, I was thinking about a little girl in our congregation. Her skin is (almost) black, but she is a radiant person.

RainboDragon< Ben: Thank you for the conversation. *s*

Ben< RainboDragon: You're more than welcome. *s*

LadyV< Spirit_Sword: I have read the Bible many times. It is my habit to do this. It is one of the most beautiful books in literature. It is for me a letter ... the only one I have from the God that I am comfortable with. I am sometimes stumped by the instructions in the letter ... but I find in time that it is figured out.

Spirit_Sword< LOL My, LadyV, how well I know! We all struggle!

LadyV< Spirit_Sword: Actually, I am a student ... and hopefully, will remain always a student ... working on it. [smiling]

Spirit_Sword< Dearest LadyV, so you are a student also! Bravo! God must be touching your heart, and you have opened up to Him. Have you relinquished your entire will?

LadyV< Spirit_Sword: If you mean have I understood that I am like a grain of sand on the beach of time, I have to answer yes to that ... as to will, there is a bit of debate about that ... human nature and all that ... working on it. [laughing]

Spirit_Sword< Well, LadyV, it would be my honor to converse with you on such matters as the Bible. Do you have any other questions or comments?

LadyV< Spirit_Sword: Thank you. You have aided me tonight. I appreciate your time.

Spirit_Sword< Oh, My Lady! It is my pleasure! But I do have a serious question for you. Ok?

LadyV< Spirit_Sword: Serious question? Perhaps we could include the group on serious questions. I am not singular in group ... part of the unit ... if that is Ok with you?

guitarist< Spirit_Sword< I don't entirely understand your question. I have been reading the Bible for a long time. It helps to know some Hebrew, as well. :)

Spirit_Sword< I call that a "student" guitarist. * S *

LadyV< guitarist: Of it all ... in Psalms ... the verse "God laughed" was for me the most wonderful news. I do not know the exact quote but it's in there.

guitarist< *smiling at Spirit_Sword and LadyV*

Spirit_Sword< LadyV: I like the one in Nahum, where it states, "The clouds are the dust of His feet."

guitarist< G-d must be kicking up a lot of dust in some parts! ;)

LadyV< Now I have to look that one up ... Nahum ... got it ... that's profound.

Spirit_Sword< Well, my question is really for you and guitarist, but I do not mean to leave RainboDragon or CHALE out. Let's give them a chance to join us and catch up to us first, Ok?

CHALE< That's fine with me.

LadyV< Ok, Spirit_Sword ...

guitarist< I'm sure Ben is interested also. He's had an interesting conversation going on parallel to ours. *s*

LadyV< guitarist [grinning]

Spirit_Sword< Chale, Ben and RainboDragon: If you care to follow along with us, or put in your opinion, we have been discussing the Bible and particularly the verse in 1 Chronicles where it says that Jabez was named so because he was brought forth in pain. Yet, he asked God to bless him, take away the pain and God did. It also says that Jabez was, "more honorable than other men."

guitarist< Now before we go any further, I think we need some context. The section on Jabez is located among the descendants of Judah. From reading this, I'm not certain that Jabez is a descendant of Judah, unless he is a son of Helah or one of his sons who comes just before that passage. In any case, it doesn't say who his parents are or who his brothers are, but it says (in my New International Version) that he was more honorable than *his brothers.* This could just refer to his brothers, and not to others.

LadyV< guitarist: You saved me some research time ... thank you.

guitarist< And the Jewish Publication Society (JPS) version says Jabez was more *esteemed* than his brothers, and that he "invoked the G-d of Israel."

Spirit_Sword< guitarist: When you say "invoked" I think of the scripture "Draw near to God and He will draw near to you."

LadyV< guitarist: He praised ... that's it I think ... first he praised ... then he asked ... thank you.

Spirit_Sword< LadyV: Praise is the highest form of prayer.

LadyV< Ben: I want to tell you something I read tonight in The South, a collection from Harpers Magazine. It was stated that one would not be bit by a cotton-mouth if they had kept the ten commandments from youth. I had not heard this saying before. It is very old, I would imagine. You know, Ben, when we talk I think southern. [teasing]

Ben< LadyV: The idea that snakes won't bite a person who keeps the commandments goes back to a statement in the Bible (Mark 16:18), but is rather contradicted by the fact that a snake bit Paul (Acts 28:3).

LadyV< Ben: Thank you. I did not know this. Wonder if that is the reason for the religious sect that handles the snakes ...

Ben< LadyV: Yes, some Christians use snake-handling as a test of faith (and status), but Jesus didn't say anyone should do that.

LadyV< Ben: That's true.

Spirit_Sword< Well, I have discovered this evening that there are a few Bible students here tonight. This has aroused my curiosity, and I wanted to ask those who study if they believe what they read?

LadyV< Spirit_Sword: Do I believe all that I read? No ... it is language ... the heart and mind together have to interpret the language, and that is not easy. Men and women have taken all literature that is religious and interpreted every possible way ... and who is right? Who is in error ... for me, better to find out for myself. However, those that do follow the literal word I do not judge ... it is their way.

Spirit_Sword< That is so right! My Lady, study for yourself, do this for yourself.

CHALE< I wish to educate my self to the fullest extent so that I can teach my children the truth and the importance of the gift that we call life.

LadyV< CHALE: The gift you gave them of life itself is what they will remember most of all. You are the parent ... nothing or anyone can replace you in your role in their lives. The fact that your love is so strong that you wish to guide them well ... will be to them important ... even if you fail ... your intent alone is enough. All else is icing on the cake ... the cake has been done already. [smiling]

Spirit_Sword< Well said, Dear Lady!

CHALE< I am a very lost soul with my mind speeding at a million miles an hour trying to figure out the truth ... who is my real creator? why am I here?

Spirit_Sword< Chale: If I may? I believe your real creator is God. And you are here to find Him and have fellowship with Him. Then make a difference in this world by letting your light shine. Start at home, because that is your first charge.

CHALE< Throughout my life, I was raised to believe that Jesus Christ is my savior, but my mind says otherwise. There's no doubt in my mind that there is a god but the whole concept of the way society sees christianity just doesn't settle right.

Spirit_Sword< Why does your mind say otherwise, Chale? Answer this question first within yourself, or in the room, your choice. First let me say this, everyone doubts.

CHALE< I was raised aposilistic but the way they described how jesus should take effect in no more than 3-6 hours after accepting him into your life just left me puzzled.

Spirit_Sword< Chale: The most common mistake people make is to think that when they accept Jesus there will be some sort of major event, like thunder and lightning, or something. He works peaceably and quietly, and causes us to grow at our own pace.

LadyV< CHALE: I have a suggestion. In the morning or whenever, you find time, go to a quiet place and sit ... don't talk ... just listen to the silence. Eventually, you will sense what is right for you to do. To know who we are, we first have to listen to ourselves think ... first step ... all other stuff follows, and in natural order ... or so I have discovered for myself ... someone else might have other suggestions.

Spirit_Sword< Chale, and all: Have you too read the bible? Well, the second part of my question, Bible students, is who do you think wrote the bible?

LadyV< hummm ... males, mostly ... since I seldom see a female hand in there ... unless it was to understate an overabundance of authority.

guitarist< I believe the Bible is, as most things are on this earth, a collaboration between G-d and inspired people (almost entirely men). It took people's cooperation to get the words in a form that could be read by all, all over the world, after all.

Spirit_Sword< As I have stated earlier, God will not go over our will. He waits patiently on us to call out to Him. Although, He gives us every sign possible to know that He is real.

CHALE< I believe that Jesus tried to reveal the secret of eternal life, but everyone failed to see his purpose. The people were looking for easy salvation and believed that he was the answer to all of their problems, but that just left the man discouraged in some sense.

Ben< CHALE: Well said. I would add just one thought: Jesus continues to reveal the secret of eternal life, patiently, if and as we are willing to receive it. His ministry didn't stop.

Spirit_Sword< Well, Chale, honey, Jesus is the answer to all of our problems! He said, "Come unto Me all you who are heavy laden, and I will give you rest." When I have a problem I just say, "You fix it, Jesus!" For there are many problems that I just cannot fix, and I need His help.

CHALE< We are not the creation, life is, and I want from my self to understand how to work with the gifts that I was given.

LadyV< CHALE: Then in the wanting, you will find an answer to your needs. [smiling]

CHALE< I feel like people fail to realize that this world was not made for just the human, but for us as brothers to work as a unit to overcome what man is doing to himself, but through our minds is the only way to understanding the ... importance ... of salvation.

Spirit_Sword< Chale: I really hear what you are saying and I agree!

CHALE< I guess I just feel like I'm seeing the beauty that we evolved from be devoured by scientists, politicians, and our own neighbors. And I feel really sad, because sometimes I feel like I'm the only one in this little town that realizes this. Everyone fails to notice that we are killing ourselves, our future and our children.

LadyV< CHALE: Listen to your heartbeat ... honestly. That is where the God is. [smiling] I was saved once ... never forgot it ... never knew what hit me to be honest ... and have yet to figure it out ... don't think it stuck, though ... forgive me ... laughing at myself ... and you are so serious ...

Spirit_Sword< There is a saying that some say, LadyV: "Once saved, always saved."

LadyV< Spirit_Sword: That is what some say ... yes ... to me I had to learn about life and humanity and myself before I understood what sharing time with God is ... depends I imagine on how one perceives.

CHALE< So you're saying the only way to find salvation is to allow myself to hear the voice in my heart? OR IS IT ONLY THROUGH OUR ... HEARTS???????

LadyV< CHALE: What I am saying to you is ... before all things, learn about who you are ... and who God is. That's all ... and to do this, listen ... works, I think ...

Ben< CHALE: There may be more than one voice in the heart. I'm saying Jesus hasn't stopped speaking to human hearts, and it's our job to learn how to recognize his voice. That isn't always easy. Personal Bible study of what he said, and to whom, and how he said it, can help a lot with this.

LadyV< ... thus speaks the voice of wisdom in Ben's words ...

guitarist< Ben: Indeed. If Jesus (or G-d, for that matter) only spoke to Christians, I probably wouldn't be here in this study.

LadyV< guitarist: And I learn from you as a Christian. I am not familiar with the teachings of your way of life and I gain new insight. That is how it should be.

Spirit_Sword< I think God speaks to all, for the scriptures say, "For God is not willing that any should perish, but that all come to the knowledge of salvation."

CHALE< Thank you for your help. I appreciate it. I should be heading for the bed. I have a long day ahead of me. I'm really happy that you could help me. Good night brothers, and as the world comes to a halt, I wish you the best. Be proud, stand firmly, and appreciate what god has granted us. Love always, chale.

Spirit_Sword< Good night to you, too, Chale. Bed sounds pretty good to me right now. Good night all!

CHALE< de nada!!! adios!

Spirit_Sword< Question: So do we follow the word of God, doing exactly what He has commanded?

guitarist< Spirit_Sword: Actually, I believe we want to follow the word and spirit of G-d. I don't know what you mean, "exactly what He has commanded."

LadyV< I am slipping out now. I see the Hindu in Stonehenge that I am learning about. His kindness is beyond words. Catch all of you later. Thanks for the sharing ... and the learning. Goodnight ...

Spirit_Sword< Good night, LadyV, and thanks for the chat!

Ben< ALL< 'tis time for me to rest. Peace and blessings to each of you.

guitarist< All: I join the rest of you in wanting to sleep. The night grows late in these parts also.

Ben< Comment: We have discussed religion without bashing each other. Congratulations!

guitarist< Yes, indeed! (laughter) How about that!

FemmeAuteur< *grins* The very mark of spiritual maturity, I'd say. It's good to see ... around here.

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