Ben< FRAML! Welcome back!

FRAML< I'd like to publicly thank GREYMAN for providing me the means to be on-line since I got home. I can't go down to my basement den, so he loaned me his spare laptop to be on-line and chat with you all.

cassandra< Greyman - that was very kind of you - not only for FRAML but for all of us.

Ben< FRAML: Please post an update on your recovery from surgery, for those who haven't seen the latest.

FRAML< BEN: OK. I've been home since the 9th. A couple of days afterward I had pain in my big toes and thought I had sprained them. I saw the doctor on Tuesday and he said I had gout, which is sometime caused by the trauma affect of the surgery on the body, especially if one has had it before, and I had an attack about 2-3 years ago. I had my staples removed on Thursday. The gout is gone as of yesterday. I can get around on my crutches fairly well, now that my feet don't hurt.

elevaphoenix< *VBS* {{{FRAML}}} *VBS* STILL not quite up for the tap-dance contest, I see ... but perhaps in training? *VBG*

guitarist< Here's to Greyman! A toast! (From her guitar case, Guitarist takes out a dozen glasses and some champagne, pouring a little in each glass. People may feel free to have a glass.)

suitESPirit< FRAML I think I would call GREYMAN a "friend", wouldn't you??? That was so nice of him, but then, you've probably been nice to someone else, so you're getting your kind reward, aren't you??? So glad you're feeling better FRAML ~~~

greyman< greyman blushing in a darker grey *G*

FRAML< ESP: Yes GREYMAN is a close friend, and has been for many years now.

suitESPirit< Surgery trauma can develop many things in us. My younger brother had open heart surgery, and came out of it a terrible diabetic (from the trauma). Very common.

guitarist< L'chaim to you, ESP and everyone!

cassandra< Here's looking at you, guitarist!!!! Thanks.

LadyV< Ben, were any members of your family in the Pacific when the atom bomb was tested? I ask as I met the someone that had a family member at that testing. They were given x-ray film between the teeth and dark glasses. Can you imagine how scary that surely must have been?

greyman< LadyV, One of my uncles was a meteorologists working in Nevada during the "above ground" tests. Told my dad to visit the East Coast for several decades. *G*

LadyV< greyman, history is now coming out about all those brave people. Many of them are now older ... into their 80's and 90's ... and we are learning much of the experiences they had.

suitESPirit< Many of them have passed on LadyV ... and oddities are showing up in their children now ...

greyman< LadyV, My office mate worked with Teller in Oakland, California.

Ben< LadyV: No, neither I nor any of my family was involved in the atomic bomb testing in the Pacific. But I worked with successors of those devices for 8 years. All during that time I wore a dosimeter (radiation recorder) on a cord around my neck, and the medics checked it frequently. (No, I never got an overdose of radiation.)

greyman< ENOLA GAY AWAY!

LadyV< thank you for the comments ... I was wondering if any of you are hearing what I am hearing now from the older ones ... many are just now speaking up ... they have been silent for years.

greyman< LadyV, Older ones. Octogenarians, or ancient old ex-humans who like to bully incarnates to amuse their own ends?

LadyV< greyman, I just see a frail person with reaching hands ... that's about as far as I get ... [smiling]

greyman< LadyV, Do you know this person?

LadyV< greyman, I knew him, yes ... he died a few weeks ago. I listen to all of them. When the time comes that a person is ready to prepare for the last walk, it helps to talk about the past. I do not know many things and if I listen I learn.

greyman< LadyV: OK, dear one, try to raise your "bliss". Reverent joy. Some sing hymns, some think of "good things". Connect to Jesus {direct your thought to Jesus} and ask for Jesus & friends of Jesus to help him to a better place.

LadyV< greyman, thank you. I will do that. [smiling]

FRAML< LadyV -- I had a temp job several years ago and we were collating copies of the reports from the people at the nuclear tests. It was interesting to see how the permitted radiation levels were reduced as the scientists learned more and saw that the affect of the radiation was greater than their initial estimates. One can say in retrospect that the government should have known that the permitted dosages should have been lower from the very beginning, but there was no way to know that; to say so is purely via hindsight and knowing what was not known at the time.

guitarist< I am curious: what kinds of effects were being noticed, FRAML?

FRAML< GUITARIST: That the doses were higher than expected, and they kept lowering the total permitted amount on a regular basis. I didn't have time to read all of the reports, we were putting together witness books for the defense and prosecution in a trial that a bunch of the workers had against the government. This was back about 1993-4.

suitESPirit< Interesting, FRAML

greyman< The History Channel is showing the A-Bomb stuff right now.

LadyV< FRAML, that's interesting ... // greyman, I do not get the History channel ... imagine that would interesting ... I can access the site on PC though ... might get a thumbnail sketch.

guitarist< I am quite afraid of anything to do with radiation, including x-rays, because I really don't think they know even now what's safe.

FRAML< When I was guarding a nuclear weapons storage site in Germany we didn't have dosimeters, but we didn't go inside the bunkers but once a month to do a serial number inventory of the weapons, and then we locked and sealed them again. The artillery shells put off very little radiation, but enough during the winter to make the inside of the bunker warmer than the outside air.

LadyV< FRAML, if you could feel the heat ... then hopefully, you made a quick check and left at once!!

FRAML< LadyV: No it was just a bit warmer than the outside freezing air. We were never in there very long. besides these were very small weapons. They would only take out a square kilometer target, not big city busters.

guitarist< Like that's not big enough, FRAML! *LOL*

FRAML< guitarist, naw, the 8-inch guns had a bigger bang, but I don't know how much bigger. I think all of those have been dismantled now.

guitarist< FRAML, I was playing with your words ... I think your guns were quite big enough, thank you very much. *WEG*

FRAML< guitarist, there is an old line from basic training about guns I'll spare you. *WEG*

Ben< FRAML: The learning curve during the atomic tests reminds me of a relative of mine, Frank Howard Swett, who was one of the early developers and manufacturers of X-ray equipment. No one knew, then, about the unseen damage that X-rays can do. He died of radiation poisoning, but that was how the human race learned about X-rays.

guitarist< Ahem ... How long ago was that, Ben?

Ben< guitarist: He started working to develop X-ray equipment about 1890, retired about 1910 because he was too sick to work, and died in 1929 after undergoing 29 operations.

guitarist< Ben, I'm surprised it took so long (but then, I guess his doctors made quite an effort to save him). I know someone whose father died of radiation treatments (I think they were in injectable or liquid form; I don't remember exactly) he received in the 1980s, and he died more quickly than that. Also, how developed do you think the x-ray equipment was by the 1960s?

Ben< guitarist: Correction on my last post: he started working to build X-ray tubes "in the 1890's" according to his obituary, so that could be any time between 1895 and 1900, because X-rays were discovered and named by Roentgen in 1895. The problem wasn't just in the equipment; they didn't know about shielding or the need for it. As you know, even today, X-ray technicians wear lead vests and/or stand behind lead shields. The use of X-ray has become progressively safer (learning curve), in large part due to improvement in the sensitivity of X-ray film, so smaller and shorter exposures can be used and still provide readable pictures.

FRAML< H'm, do x-rayted actors work behind lead cameras?

CatLady< ROFL@FRAML

guitarist< What I wanted to know (if you do), Ben, is about how far along on that learning curve we were in the 1960s.

Ben< guitarist: I'm not sure, but I think that X-ray is a lot safer now than it was in the 1960's. The learning curve has continued.

Yopo< BEN *hehe* At least we're SMARTER now. I can remember a local shoe store when I was a kid that had an x-ray machine to check if shoes fit. Fortunately they never used 'em to check hat sizes ... *rolling eyes*

greyman< Ben, early color TV's circa 1964-1970 were strong sources of X-Ray radiation. Now cell phones are linked to cancer with RF radiation.

guitarist< Now, Greyman, I understand that RF is not as powerful in that way as x-ray. (My hubby has been working in it for 30 years with no side effects except, maybe, his sense of humor.)

greyman< guitarist, Human cells are pretty resilient, but can be damaged. Once damaged they replicate badly. Or at best simply die off.

CatLady< greyman, do you know if there is any danger from the transmitter-receiver towers that the cell phone companies use?

greyman< CatLady, There is a wonderful law in physics. It is called the inverse square law. That is to say the power of electromagnetic radiation falls off as the square of the distance from that source. Frequency is important. Your microwave oven operates by exciting the water molecules to a heated frenzy. Your oven does this by convection heating.

guitarist< Greyman, CatLady: that's the law my husband quotes to me.

CatLady< *S* well so far I haven't been able to find out much, but I will continue to ask questions . It's not really too easy for me to move at the moment, so I guess I will just have to shield the apartment in white light till I can.

Yopo< Durn cell phone towers are popping up around northwest Indiana like toadstools after a rain ...

tiggerlily< Yopo ... there needs to be some etiquette with cell phones ... who can write the book?

LadyV< that's true, tiggerlily, when you see a conductor get really mad when in the middle of a concert one of the cell phones rings ... it is distracting.

tiggerlily< LadyV ... wow ... maybe you could help me brainstorm about situations that require cell phone etiquette.

Yopo< tiggerlily: Hmm ... I suppose I could take my laptop along with me, and write a book on cell phone etiquette while driving back and forth to work ...

LadyV< Yopo [smiling]

FRAML< And now all the convicts in prisons are demanding them. *G*

tiggerlily< something tells me the spiritual topic for the night is not cell phone etiquette.

FRAML< tiggerlily---It is open forum night: If you have a topic let us know. Aikiwalk & I are talking about elevating one's spirit/soul.

Yopo< tiggerlily, Cell phones are actually an interesting topic. I wonder, for instance, about the implications of never being out of contact, of always talking, of constantly multi-tasking and splitting the attention. My driving time is often my quiet thinking time ...

tiggerlily< Yopo ... wow ... what a good point! Actually, I don't have a cell phone. I just can't quite relate. I always am slightly offended when people are talking on them while in the checkout line at work. One day a man said excuse me before he answered his phone ... and I thought that was "proper" ... that was cool .

cassandra< Yopo - that is a very good point. Maybe because I think that myself. It seems my family can't go anywhere without a cell phone. I think the little ones think their parents have growths on their ears. *G*

LadyV< Cassandra, you have a point there ... it appears heads are attached to them ... one wonders if there is just time to simply be ...

CatLady< The reason I was asking greyman is that we have 16 of those towers on top of our apartment building (and I am on the top floor). It makes me very nervous!

greyman< CatLady, I would seek further advice/guidance. If it were me, I would move. But I tend to err on caution when reasonable and possible. I lived near Calvert Cliffs nuclear power plant and did not mind, never glowed in the dark *G*.

elevaphoenix< Hello {{{Ben}}} *VBS* // LadyV, I am quite happy and fluffy hearted ... having reports this day of some rather remarkable and uplifting success from my work. *VBS*

LadyV< elevaphoenix, now I like the term "fluffy hearted" makes me smile.

guitarist< So, what kind of results did you get from your work, eleva?

elevaphoenix< It's a bit of a long story, guitarist, but I was part of a 6-person healing team which did a 21-day mission to Europe, to work on the "foot and mouth disease epidemic" ...

guitarist< Sounds interesting, EP: please go on.

elevaphoenix< We'd locate a young animal and work on its immune system and its blood, to help it overcome the disease, so that the antibodies in its blood might form the base for an antidote. Then I'd stop by the farmer or some receptive person there and leave the idea in their minds that that animal was "special" and bore watching.

FRAML< elevaphoenix, why have they started calling it foot and mouth disease? I grew up knowing it as hoof and mouth disease, since only animals with hooves got it.

cassandra< FRAML - Thanks for asking that. I had been wondering about the name change myself.

elevaphoenix< FRAML, I know ... and HOOF and mouth makes more sense anyway ... I don't know when or why that change came about ...

suitESPirit< I wondered that myself FRAML ... It was always known as hoof & mouth disease ... Now this new term????

FRAML< Perhaps to cause people to become afraid that they might get it?

cassandra< FRAML - Gee, that is what I thought about too. *G*

guitarist< FRAML, I know plenty of *people* who get foot-IN-mouth disease ... and I have been there myself.

elevaphoenix< We did several missions every night ... spent 3 nights in England ... also went to Scotland, Ireland, France, Germany, Belgium, the Netherlands, Denmark, Spain and Italy ...

suitESPirit< eleva -- did you go to Europe in person, or in spirit??

elevaphoenix< suitESPirit, it was an Astral mission ... we met and went together in our Astral bodies ...

suitESPirit< I didn't know Ireland was having a problem with it ...

elevaphoenix< There was a news article from England ... about a white calf ... spent 4 days huddled beside its dead mother's body ... amidst a slaughter ... and when found, was spared. It has become sort of the "poster child" for England's change in policy, cutting back on the slaughter ... has already been "booked" for a Christmas pageant. Now here's the remarkable thing ... the boy on the farm ... there's a photo of him with the little white calf ... named the calf "Phoenix". *tears of joy in eyes*

greyman< elevaphoenix, good story.

elevaphoenix< Thank you, greyman. *teary smile*

guitarist< elevaphoenix, the calf had risen out of the ashes. The very definition of phoenix, except it wasn't a bird ...

elevaphoenix< Yes, guitarist. Isn't that wonderful? *VBS*

guitarist< Indeed, eleva. Sounds as though you identify with that theme yourself, through your nic.

elevaphoenix< Yes, guitarist, yes, indeed I do. *VBS*

LadyV< Ben are you working on a new project?

Ben< LadyV (et al): My most recent project was my previous post. *G*

LadyV< Ben [smiling]

Ben< LadyV: Seriously, yes, I'm working on several projects, mostly ones I started rather a long time ago and didn't get finished. Some of them have to do with what happened to Christianity, especially the introduction of doctrines and dogmas that Jesus didn't teach and never heard of.

LadyV< Ben, that would take much time. I hope you plan to put it on your website for all of us to share.

Ben< LadyV: You may have seen the one paper I have published on that theme. If not, it's called "State Church of the Roman Empire" and it's under "Testimony" on my website. I worked on the research (off and on) for two years, and was surprised at what I found.

order< Hello, Ben! *VBS ... was listening in on your conversation with LadyV ... your article called State Church of the Roman Empire sounds very interesting!! ... can't wait to read it ...

guitarist< I have read "State Church of the Roman Empire" myself and highly recommend it. (I saved it to my own computer.) I can't wait for Ben to publish the sequel(ae) as well!

LadyV< Ben, I will take time to read it. I was enjoying the poems the other evening ... meant to tell you that I liked them ...

Ben< LadyV: I'm glad you like my poems. The second book was another of those projects I started long ago and didn't get finished until I took some time to put it on my site.

LadyV< Ben, I saw the observer within you ... you perceive the world with clear honest eyes and heart ... your simplicity makes the words so very effective. I am glad you had time to finish the project.

Ben< LadyV: Thank you, dear friend.

LadyV< Ben, if you don't mind please put up your nick so some might want to click on it to go to your website ...

Ben< LadyV: Sure. Here it is. If anyone is interested in the poetry, it is under "other collections" at the bottom of this home-page. http://home.dn.net/~bswett/spirit.html

FRAML< AIKIWALK--How are you doing tonight?

aikiwalk< thanks FRAML for asking, encouraging me.

FRAML< This is open forum night, so if anyone has something they want to discuss please let us know.

aikiwalk< Hi all, I'm developing a practice of being still to quiet my mind and listen/speak as in two way communication with God. Having trouble clearing my mind from all the internal noise in my life. Anyone up for sharing what works for them?

FRAML< aikiwalk -- Yes, that takes practice and concentration. I still have difficulty at times getting myself to be quiet and listen. Although I can get quiet, elevate and connect quite quickly when I have to. I use my little pouch of blessing for that exercise.

aikiwalk< FRAML, when you say elevate, is it focusing on who God is and His being/qualities, or something else? ... mindful or mind empty?

FRAML< aikiwalk -- It is elevating my spirit/soul to be in contact with Jesus. Getting above the fray down here and establishing the communications link.

aikiwalk< I have done centering prayer; i.e., mindful, and Zen which is more empty, and I'm finding Zen easier, but hard on my spiritual walk.

FRAML< aikiwalk -- I can't comment on Zen as I am unfamiliar with it. Perhaps someone else here can address that.

aikiwalk< It is being able to be in contact with Jesus the way you speak of that I miss, the other is easier, but not fulfilling.

RainboDragon< aikiwalk: I like Zen methods *s*

aikiwalk< It is hard to begin over from the beginning, I think.

Schwa< I tried Zen once but I kept getting in my own way ...

aikiwalk< Zen focuses on breath and just watches thoughts without attaching feelings or importance to them basically ... an observation. Zen is feeling like self observation from a detached point of view

FRAML< aikiwalk -- It was learning to center myself and become quiet as the starting point. There is an exercise in Ben's Spirituality site about this; it is in his two way communication paper. But then I learned more sitting around the table in our first Century meetings and practicing there than I did working straight from the book.

aikiwalk< I'm trying to find a way back to what I knew before as listening and being connected to Jesus and God. Very awkward now.

FRAML< aikiwalk -- I guess for me it was getting to know that Jesus wasn't distant and untouchable and being forbidden to talk to him unless one knew the 'secret court prayers'. I finally learned that I could get around those personal roadblocks by talking to him as I'd talk to my commander when I was in the army. That loosened me up and gave me a key to connect.

aikiwalk< I went to Zen when I was angry cause it was easier and I found easy for me, but very hard to return to what was satisfying, like there is a concrete wall I haven't noticed. It is bothersome.

FRAML< aikiwalk -- it is a mental block that you can overcome.

aikiwalk< Ok, just a mental block

aikiwalk< It feels distant when approaching the communication, maybe it is I need to not expect the quiet but just be where I am like the commander in army ... like a person again, not Zen observational disconnected.

FRAML< aikiwalk -- If that works for you. My example was what I found worked for me. I figure that a lot of folks won't relate to it. Perhaps it is talking with a good friend or an old buddy/pal.

aikiwalk< Much the same as working with my sensei, and choosing that thought ... it makes sense ... that is the change from Zen ... no relationship with Zen, hadn't thought of it that way.

FRAML< aikiwalk -- yes, separate from Zen. working with your sensei is a good example for working with Jesus. Also you can ask C.S. about it if you talk with her. She used to attend the First Century group. She was with it before I joined.

aikiwalk< I was to visit C.S. tomorrow, but life intervened.

FRAML< aikiwalk: *S*

tiggerlily< I know a nun who is into Zen, too. Thomas Merton was into Zen ... and the Zen monk Thich Nat Hahn is into Christianity ... so it's okay to combine the meditation practice of Zen with the intimacy of Christianity. *S*

LadyV< tiggerlily, did you read Thomas Merton's Journal? It was very revealing ... imagine you did ...

tiggerlily< LadyV ... don't really remember it specifically ... but I "dig" Merton ...

LadyV< tiggerlily if you find time, pick up a copy. It is his personal struggle with intimacy ... and it is more revealing of how he thought ... not necessarily his connection to the Order. I "dig" him too ... have learned much from reading his books.

tiggerlily< LadyV ... I work in a bookstore, so that should be fairly easy.

Schwa< I thought about what a Zen cookbook would be like, it would be for people who were already full ...

elevaphoenix< aikiwalk, my meditation is of an entirely different nature ... a more active type ... channeling energy ... reducing and expanding consciousness ... moving into and out of other dimensions ... odd, of course ... but it works for me. *VBS*

RainboDragon< aikiwalk: In my opinion Zen type of meditation is just a tool to obtain something that can not be expected (because it is unknown at this moment). So expectation of final result, instead of just concentrating on the using of this tool, might cause some problems.

Schwa< RainboDragon: The biggest truths in life cannot be cut down (explained). And no, I don't know them, I know of them.

aikiwalk< RainboDragon, with the Zen, I am comfortable, and at rest, but lonely for what I had known in another way, not sure how to put it. Zen serves me in one way, not another.

RainboDragon< aikiwalk: I use many methods, not just Zen, whatever feels right in the moment

order< wondering if there is any aspect of prayer in Zen??

aikiwalk< I am only familiar with centering prayer; i.e., Cloud of Unknowing, and zazen-sitting Zen meditation as meditation styles.

RainboDragon< aikiwalk: I make up my own (trying to use what I read, of course) *s*

aikiwalk< Thank you all. I must sign off and get to sleep now. I've responsibilities in the morning.

FRAML< Good night aikiwalk. Remember to count your blessing before you sleep, and also to help you elevate your soul.

aikiwalk< thanks for the reminder FRAML and for the company all of you this evening. [For more of this conversation see the seminar for 26 May 2001. FRAML]

elevaphoenix< Does anybody else notice how polar opposite the two topics going on here are? The total absorption into 3D in cel phones, and the freeing from it in meditation. [NOTE: I've separated the two threads so they will be easier reading. FRAML]

LadyV< Yopo, if you would not mind, could you share with the group what happened yesterday with the Hawk? It might lift their hearts for those that have not heard it. Don't mean to put you in the limelight ... but it sure left me feeling good about the world last evening.

Yopo< LadyV Uh, well ... Yeah. Since you've put me on the spot ... *hehe*

elevaphoenix< *Waiting to hear Yopo's story about the Hawk*

Yopo< The short version: There are hawks nesting in a wood across the highway from where I work. They've been there at least four years now, and I watch 'em all the time. So, this past Wednesday I suddenly see a tree go down in the woods, then another, then see there's a bulldozer busily pushing the whole woods away. I got REALLY upset, but didn't know what to do. Word quickly spread, however, and a friend called a friend, who called the Department of Natural Resources, then showed up at 5:30 the next morning to hold off the bulldozer until the DNR guy appeared on the scene. He made 'em get off their machines, and told 'em the tree was under the protection of state and federal law so long as the hawks still had young in the nest. So, they are leaving the tree and the hawks alone. This is a good outcome. I was sorta feeling like the bulldozer was gonna push part of my soul away or something. Lots of issues in this particular situation ...

donoma< (((Yopo))) that is lovely

Yopo< donoma: My friend really impressed me. I honestly think she woulda put herself between that tree and the bulldozer, if it had come down to it.

LadyV< Yopo: "push your soul away ... " imagine that is how the Hawk felt in some strange way ... maybe ...

order< Yopo: Great story ... thanks for sharing it ... and am happy about the outcome **hugs

suitESPirit< Yopo: that is fantastic! I live in the Redwood Forest where the Big Lumber Co's are stripping all the old growth trees ... Oh my ... the problems we are having here. Woody Harrelson was just here last week stirring the ecologists up ... What a battle is brewing ... almost like the rain forest in So. America !!!!

Ben< Yopo: Good report. Thank you for posting it.

order< STANDING AND APPLAUDING YOPO ... CLAP CLAP CLAP

elevaphoenix< *STANDING OVATION FOR YOPO*

Yopo< elevaphoenix: In all truth, it was my friend who is deserving of any praise. I only felt strongly. She ACTED strongly.

donoma< I have a question for the group ... does everyone believe in past lives? If so, why?

order< donoma: my head entertains the thought only ... *S

elevaphoenix< donoma, I have relived a number of my own past lives under past life regression hypnosis, and even found physical evidence of one of them ...

donoma< ((eleva)) I remember you telling me the story. *S*S*S*

FRAML< DONOMA: I accept that people may have had past lives, but have no personal experience of having had one myself, thus I say that I don't fully believe in it, but I will not dismiss it. I've got several friends who have had past life regression experiences that appear quite valid to me.

donoma< FRAML: Why do they seem valid to you, instead of deep seated fantasies?

FRAML< donoma: because I trust the people who have told me about them. And have discussed them in detail and how the regression was done. It is a case of I know their truthfulness on other subjects and thus believe them on this. If that other knowledge didn't exist, I would be quite skeptical.

guitarist< I tend to agree with FRAML: I haven't had any past lives that I know of, but I believe people whom I'd believe on other subjects.

KLATO< my nephew says that he has remembered his past life since he was very small. He says that he got killed by a car while riding a skate board.

FRAML< KLATO: How old is he now?

LadyV< KLATO I have listened to children up to the age of 5 speak of past lives ... after that it either leaves them or does not seem important ... its really strange ...

cassandra< KLATO - how old is your nephew?

KLATO< He's 16. He says he remembers flowers being on the skateboard. By that one might presume he was female.

Yopo< "How one can one explain to another something the other has not experienced?" (I think I understood that correctly.) This is a question that perplexes me often these days. The people in my world seem generally divided into two categories today: Those who understand what I'm talking about, and those who think I'm slightly crazy ... *s*

guitarist< Yopo, I suspect that those who know you understand you AND think you're slightly crazy. But that's OK. We all have our craziness.

Yopo< Oh, great. Some of my friends are only HUMORING me ... *LOL*

elevaphoenix< Yopo, "slightly crazy" is always a PLUS with me!!!!!! *VBG*

Yopo< guitarist: What about vague memories that don't quite fit into your current life history? Odd little clips that seem to be part of a different movie? Anything like that?

guitarist< Good question, Yopo ... maybe I have, but offhand I don't remember.

sauergeek< what's the topic tonight, for this latecomer?

LadyV< sauergeek: now I spelled it right [smiling] thought so. The discussion that you shared with us left you imprinted. You dislike errors ... very precise ... found you interesting as your thought appears to be rational and with few grey areas. Welcome back, sauergeek ... [smiling]

sauergeek< There are many gray areas to my thinking; it's just that none of them came up when I was last on-line. But yes, I try to be precise, so as to avoid misunderstanding, and I do try to be rational, though I've found of late that my rationality can also be a severe handicap when it comes to handling emotion.

LadyV< sauergeek: When the head and the heart speak to each other, the confusion will cease. It just takes time ... be kind to yourself ... always ...

sauergeek< LadyV: It was only recently that I found that out.

donoma< I'd like to ask another question: how many people have had past life regressions, and how much did you trust the experience? was the outcome a surprise? or did it validate something that was already in your head? was it really clear, or fuzzy and you needed to fill in the blanks?

elevaphoenix< donoma, my regressions were VERY clear ... although I have been told that it was because I am an artist and artists have the most vivid experiences. It validated a couple of things that were in my head for each of them ... and also provided some wonderful surprises, some of which are still unfolding. *VBS*

8up< Hi, Y'all, donoma, for me, there were some details that were confirmations of things that I had suspected all along ... and some fantastic surprises ... this happened not through hypnosis, but spontaneously, during and after my nde's.

elevaphoenix< donoma, for one of my lives, I encountered someone who was my niece in that lifetime ... and we are connected now ... she is a student of mine ... we have never met in 3D ... live half a world away from one another ... but she drew a picture of her uncle as she remembered him ... and I had a drawing I had done of myself in that lifetime at the age of 14 ... and we exchanged pictures ... they crossed in the mail ... and I was just blown away when I saw it ... her picture was drawn from the same angle, and you could look at the features one by one and SEE how he aged. AMAZING!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Ben< donoma: I have experienced past-life regressions, some spontaneous, some intentional. The result is usually a surprise to me, though it may clarify something else, like recurring dreams, for example. For info on Past Life Regression Therapy, see the papers by Dr. William J. Baldwin, under "Resources" on my site.

FRAML< Good night all. Remember to count your blessings before you sleep.

LadyV< Ben: Is Baldwin the one that is on the Spiritweb site also on Past Life Regressions? I read those comments on the networking ... its fascinating and I forget the Doctor's name ...

Ben< LadyV: Yes. Dr. William J. Baldwin. He is a pioneer in Past Life Regression Therapy and Spirit Releasement Therapy. My report of a course he taught on those subjects in 1989 is entitled "St. Michael's Manor".

8up< On past life regressions, look for books by Brian Weiss.

LadyV< Ben: He is interesting. I felt that he was qualified as well.

Schwa< Ben, do you know of a book, I think from the early 80's called "Twenty suggestions of past lives" by a priest called Severson?

Ben< Schwa: No, I haven't heard of that book or author. What do you think of his twenty suggestions?

Schwa< Ben, after years and years, I realized that what I think is not what is ... Right now for me, life is one big fantastic puzzle ... and I love puzzles ...

Ben< Schwa: I also love puzzles. *S*

Yopo< Maybe that book was "Twenty Cases Suggestive of Reincarnation"?

Jello< If this discussion is on past lives, I know IANDS (International Association of Near-Death Studies, www.iands.org) has tapes from their yearly Conferences with some past life-related material. They do cost some $ (look on their web site).

LadyV< Yopo, have you ever experienced recurrent dreams of being from another life? I think you were a Monk ... Spanish. Of course, that is only a guess ... do you ever dream of Monks??

Yopo< LadyV: Hmm ... Verrry interesting ... *S* I have had three or so instances that have made me wonder about possible past lives, or some sort of psychic connection with other lives. None are particularly detailed. Just memories that don't fit. One does relate to a monk. What happened was this: I awoke one Sunday morning, with light shining in through the blinds in my bedroom window. Outside a branch was moving in the breeze, giving a peculiar flickering quality to the patch of light on the wall. As I was laying there looking at it, I suddenly had this memory flash through my mind. I was a monk, sitting on a grassy bank, watching sunlight flickering off ripples in the water. The flickering on my bedroom wall was the same as it had been then. Nothing more than that to the memory ...

LadyV< Yopo: Thank you ... if you find time ... and you are comfortable with it ... ask someone with authority that can do the past-life regressions. I think you might find it interesting ...

Yopo< LadyV: I suspected this monk was Buddhist, but don't really know why I thought of him that way ...

LadyV< Yopo: What's in my mind's eye is a sharp nose with long dark hair and face is elongated ... long fingers ... sad droopy eyes ... frail ... Hey!! lets go Buddhist! healthy with lots of rice in the bowl!! Gosh! can handle that better ...

Yopo< LadyV *hehe* I didn't see my reflection. Water was rippling. The Spanish monk is an interesting idea, though. Might explain a few current-life religious issues I dealt with.

el< A rather interesting woman known as a great medium and seer of things to come and past said she had a message for me. She named 5 past lives ... One was familiar from reading history ... One in Egypt ... a male Indian chief who healed with smoke ... and two others rather lowly, lonely, sad ... cleared up a few fearful phobias ... chronic bronchitis no more. It appears that from the 100's of life times I might of lived and perhaps more, she named but a few and said those lives are the ones to understand for this embodiment. I've had wonderful understanding and knowledge, and further intuiting helpful insights as a result ... from it all ... with a few more hypnotherapy and regression sessions and other spontaneous recall, it appears they all tie in to what I need to continue to pursue in completion in this life time. Interesting and ongoing ...

LadyV< el: that's interesting ...

SageWoman< I have wanted to do a past life regression but haven't found the right therapist yet. I remember past lives in Egypt, Minoa (or Atlantis), as a Mayan, Native American, many in England, Scotland, France, etc. One as a Tibetan monk.

Allyandria< SageWoman: Minoa never was Atlantis, Dear One. *******

SageWoman< Allyandria: The recent research points to the island of Thera as the most probable place of the Atlantis legends.

Allyandria< SageWoman: What about the Bikimi Road, eh ? and the underwater rocks people have found, and the Bermuda Triangle ?

Allyandria< SageWoman: I had More than one lifetime in Atlantis. I don't believe it ever could have been Thera as you're saying. For one thing, The Atlantins were much more advanced than what they have found on that Little Island ...

sauergeek< One point of curiosity with past lives: from what science can tell us, the living population of the world today exceeds the number of humans who have already died. I would think that for everyone who has had a past life, there must be many more who are here for the very first time. Or possibly that past lives stretch into human-ish societies of creatures that pre-date homo sapiens, such as homo erectus or any of our other ancestors.

Jello< Speaking of puzzles, I recently came through an interesting psychotherapy philosophy ... one that stresses that our view of life is based in our thoughts, and that at any moment we can (theoretically) let go whatever is bothering us and go into a tranquil, peaceful state of mind. It doesn't completely mesh with my beliefs but it reminds me of the kind of message espoused by "happy people" you read about in those uplifting books and email chain letters ... But one message repeated over and over is that "Why" (including, I guess, past life events) doesn't matter ... what matters is getting to the tranquil place now (or as soon as possible). And once one becomes used to being there, the old hurts and blockages start clearing up naturally (or rather, through the agency of internal wisdom).

LadyV< Jello: That's interesting reading ...

Jello< LadyV: It's a very interesting philosophy. The guy who started it (Sydney Banks) had a mystic "white-light" experience when enlightenment (or whatever it was) struck him. While I think some of what he says is clearly wrong (e.g., what you think can't hurt anyone), apparently this idea of realizing your experiences are based in your own thinking has helped many people to stop acting out of their own ingrained reactions. They regain the ability to think for themselves -- or so it looks for me.

LadyV< Jello: yes ... I understand what you are saying.

Jello< Letting go the "why" is something many mystics seem to have advocated as well, but it seems to me (given some sample past-life cases) that it can help people if they can just find the source. Maybe we find the solution that's best for us. But if we can't find the "why," then I guess it is best to forget about it until an opportunity arises rather than go nuts wanting to know.

Ben< Jello: Yes, we can run our minds into wild speculations and infinite regresses trying to answer the question "Why?" But in simple things, the answer is often clear. "Why won't this door open? Oh ... wrong key." And yes, laying all of one's problems aside for a moment in order to get quiet inside is a prerequisite for most spiritual work.

sauergeek< If I remember correctly, some sects of Buddhism advocate letting go all distracting thoughts, whether pleasant or unpleasant. You should be disturbed neither by your negative or positive imaginings.

LadyV< sauergeek: It will work out ... just go easy ...

Jello< The other interesting aspect of it is that it emphasizes that bringing up issues with your loved ones when you're in a bad mood is a bad idea -- applying Ben's model of the spiritual spectrum, it becomes clear that when you're in a bad mood, you're acting as a source of lower-spectrum bad ideas, so of course you shouldn't be spewing material (much less acting on any of it) while in a bad mood. So it turns conventional "talk through your bad moods" on its head.

LadyV< Jello: Ever watch a woman stir up dust? When she is really upset and does not know what to do, or she cannot make or force a change at that moment, she starts stirring ... she will change the bed and move the chair ... or do her hair ... this gives her thought processes something positive to hold on to ... she feels better ... that is changing thought and putting action behind it.

sauergeek< For bad moods, I've often found that cleaning or weeding or cooking can free me from the mood -- but only if I'm doing the cleaning or whatnot because I want to, rather than because I'm trying to clear the mood. If I cook to clear the mood, I'll often find myself thinking "Ok, when is cooking going to clear things up for me?" and not actually getting any benefit.

Ben< ALL: 'tis time for me to rest. Peace and blessings to each of you. Good night.

Sauergeek< In essence, I need to find something to distract me from the bad mood. // goodnight Ben

Schwa< What about future lives? I mean, if time is an illusion, then it should go both directions ...

LadyV< Schwa, sometimes I think your right and left brain compete ... [teasing]

el< Oh, LadyV, I just remembered another. I had a love-hate relationship with my father. While a student and lying on the cot, it being my turn to be healed in a class, the facilitator told me she saw clearly that my father and I were lovers in the past ... my father having been some kind of wizard ... and in this life we came together to help lift the other members of our very large family. Could be we both blew it somewhat. Later when I was having psychic surgery, Father appeared standing behind Mother who had passed over a few month before this healing session. Mother asked "Will you forgive me?" ... Oh MY! ... I wondered what for. Father said not one word, which was strange for a man who always held an audience with his ongoing obnoxious non-stop stories ... bored me to death. *S* Father made his transition 15 years ago, and I bet his mouth is still going strong ... LOL! ... and doggone it, I'm getting just like the ol' hoot in the September of my life! Can't you tell? ... LOL ... Poor mother always played martyr and very subservient to my rather tyrannical father ...

LadyV< el: In the September of your life, it's time to give yourself good strokes that you have survived much and you are your own person. [smiling] That is different from what I have read in Past Life Regressions.

Ben< ALL: Thank you for a fine evening. May you sleep well and awaken refreshed. *poof*