Amazon Room
Sat, 26 May 2001

FRAML< /topic BEN'S SEMINAR: Care Taking Hints. 10 pm Eastern, FRAML Hosting

FRAML< SEMINAR TOPIC: Care taking hints: spiritual, physical, & emotional. The importance of those who are being cared for and for the person doing the care giving.

[Note: Ben led a seminar on care-giving last September that you may want to refer to.]

FRAML< I'm hoping that LEGS & K'AM will be here tonight. They jointly suggested the topic.

polgara< Greetings and blessings, all!

FRAML< Welcome. greyman & guitarist, polgara is my friend from the Midwest.

polgara< Greyman knows me, although it's been months since i've been here. Guitarist is new 'HI' (smile)!!!

guitarist< Welcome, Polgara. Any friend of FRAML is certainly welcome here. :)

guitarist< Shalom, aikiwalk!

guitarist< While we're waiting for LEGS and K'AM, I wonder whether FRAML would like to tell us more about his book signing. Sadly, I won't be able to make it. Congratulations, though, on getting published, FRAML!

polgara< Yes, congratulations FRAML!

aikiwalk< Congratulations on your book. That's an accomplishment!

FRAML< guitarist: Thank you. It is Monday afternoon at the B. Dalton bookstore at Union Station here in DC. There are going to be several of the other chapter authors there. The book is an 'alternate history' i.e. counter-factual fiction. The title is "Rising Sun Victorious" about WWII in the Pacific. I wrote the chapter on Pearl Harbor. [The book signing went well, and I had a great time.]

guitarist< You wrote, then, on what would have happened if somebody else won the war?

FRAML< Not purely my book, I'm one of 10 contributing authors. I hope that this is not my first and last such success. I'm writing a chapter for a future volume the same editor is doing on that is tentatively entitled "The Cold War Goes Hot." I'm beginning research on the Cuban Missile Crisis.

guitarist< "You" was meant in the plural, FRAML. I guess I should have said, "you all" or that favorite Southernism, "y'all." Sorry about that.

FRAML< guitarist: Yes, sort of. Each chapter stands alone. We took an actual event and then worked out the 'what if' other possible decisions had been made. I followed a lot of the 'what if' questions about pearl harbor. What if Kimmel had been warned that morning. what if our planes would have gotten in the air, what if the Japanese had done the third strike.

guitarist< ...what if Roosevelt had allowed our forces to respond to what they knew?

FRAML< guitarist: Sort of, but I didn't do anything with Roosevelt. I just worked with proven alternate choices that could have been made on 7 December.

aikiwalk< Hi! I am well and enjoying this week what came together from last week.

FRAML< aikiwalk: I'm happy to hear that you had a positive benefit from last week's seminar.

aikiwalk< Came back to a new understanding of some basic underpinning of my spirituality and belief that I had let drop aside. It has been an interesting week.

FRAML< aikiwalk -- Good.

FRAML< I guess we can start discussing the listed topic if you are ready?

guitarist< Whenever you are, FRAML.

aikiwalk< sure

greyman< Care giving hints? I have perspective from both ends of that stick. Had diner with Mrs. greyman this evening and had a little discussion about it. In particular, we were discussing about the next half of our lives. We have seen so many of our friends go from vital to useless. I am left with the notion: if you live long enough, someone is going to wipe your rear end. I am not looking forward to that possibility. How does one keep spirits up when these old folks are on a downward depression trip?

FRAML< greyman: You have a good point. I think that part of the answer is that one has to realize that a time comes when one needs to have others do things for them. There is a member of my church who needed to be reminded of this, that he had spent many years helping others, and now it was his turn to be helped. He is a stiff-necked old Irishman. But he came to realize that.

FRAML< LEGS & K'AM suggested this as covering the physical, emotional, and spiritual aspects of Care Taking and from the view of being the person taken care of (their perceived role for me).

polgara< I, too, have been on both ends of the stick, Greyman. I have lots of thoughts on the subject, both as a person and as a professional.

polgara< Someone actually reminded me the other day that if we don't learn to 'balance' care giving with receiving, we will have nothing worthwhile to give for very long.

aikiwalk< It is imperative to give the receiver of the care as much control of their life as they can manage and treat with dignity especially with personal care. It is hard of the giver and the receiver. It takes energy to give and allow control and decisions. Sometimes people just want to do it for others because it is easier. Like parents wish they can just do it for a four year old.

aikiwalk< it is easier to give than receive for me. And it may be emotional, financial, physical....the gamut.... It is hard to remain in balance. Without the balance ....resentment, bitterness, anger, impatience begin or depression if turned inward. It is hard stuff.

Astralloon< Too many people are too proud to let themselves receive help

polgara< It is easier to give than receive for me as well. It took watching someone else who could only 'give' (but with some VERY NASTY strings attached) to help me learn that I always need to look at my motives for giving...not a fun thing to do, sometimes.

guitarist< My husband just found out that he has a pinched nerve in his cervical spine (neck), so I am taking up some of his slack. He has always had a positive attitude about getting older ("consider the alternative"), and is grateful for every birthday.

aikiwalk< this spring I learned to let a few people help when lost my fulltime job. It was hard to receive food. I am working contractually now, but the food still is important paying my own benefits and taxes. I have been proud. But proud and working 24/7 does not cut it and others WANT to help. To turn it down would hurt them and me.

guitarist< (((Yes, aikiwalk. )))

FRAML< aikiwalk: Yes, it is a major decision point to realize that one needs help and that it is wise to accept it. In this case it is being given out of true need because of circumstances that are not under ones control.

FRAML< For me this has been a case of would I be taken care of, or just left to mostly fend for myself. Fortunately, I've had not had to fend for myself. I wasn't sure on how much support I'd have, but found what I wasn't expecting.

aikiwalk< Receiving help is intrinsically a vulnerable position and that is usually avoided like the plague.

guitarist< aikiwalk: Unless the person wants to manipulate others through it. This is not a good idea, though, because this behavior can come back to haunt him or her ("the boy who cried 'wolf'" story comes to mind).

aikiwalk< learned helplessness is manipulative and is crying wolf, yes and that is a behavior that will haunt you.

Astralloon< I wonder, is proudness a positive or negative emotion? In buddhism it is considered negative.

polgara< Astralloon...it would depend, to me, on how one defines 'proudness'...no pride could mean low self esteem no ability to speak for oneself, too much pride, pride in the wrong things, can make one at best irritating and self centered, at worst...a monster, a dictator...

FRAML< Astralloon: I think that proudness can be both positive and negative. One can be just proud of a true accomplishment, such as the chapter I wrote for a book that has just been published. Versus one who is proud of who they are just because they think that they do everything well, no matter what they actually do.

Astralloon< no-one likes to feel defenceless or not in control. Receiving help is the first stp to realize that we are not.

aikiwalk< h'mm, I think I am referring to pride, not "being proud of an accomplishment". Pride separates me from others either I am better than them....or I see them as better than me. Acknowledging hard work and accomplishments I see as positive. Does that make any more sense...its how I look at it.

guitarist< aikiwalk, I think you're making very good sense. There is false pride (which leads to misrepresentation) and true pride (the flip side of humility).

FRAML< aikiwalk: Yes, you are making sense. "acknowledging hard work and accomplishments" is a source of true pride. The down side is if one becomes overly boastful of the accomplishments to the point that you drown out others.

Astralloon< I think in regards to proudness, like most things, balance is the key.

StarrFu< and pride can be a way of pushing others away from us and becoming "special" where we rationalize that the laws do not apply to us.

StarrFu< Most times I feel satisfaction for a deed....when I feel what I label pride, then I start to track my motives

Ronwyn< is anyone allowed to comment?

guitarist< Of course! Join us, Ronwyn!

aikiwalk< It is that healthy pride and a sense of dignity that is often lost somehow when receiving like it voids the past...It does *not void* it. But it can feel like it.

Ronwyn< I find pride a good thing, in my own life that is, it let me know I'm healing. Its only been recently that I've ever been proud of what i've done, or proud of myself, or things that I accomplish:) my $0.02

tracey< Ronwyn, I liked your two cents. Thank you. *S*

aikiwalk< Agreed Ronwyn, it is a battle to be able to recognize and own the good stuff **Great for you**

aikiwalk< And caregivers are so tired that their needs may go unnoticed and they may not notice the subtle needs of the other either. Confusing stuff.

Astralloon< Hmmm, but does what we call pride really exist or is it another smoke screen for our ego's to work behind? everytime we feel pride does it not contribute to our blossoming ego's.

FRAML< Astralloon: It depends upon how pride helps or hinders whether on is willing to take care of another person, or to let themselves be taken care of.

Ronwyn< As with everything, I think it becomes what we make it, call it window of perspective. or to put another way 'one mans trash is another's treasure...heh.

tracey< pride in ones own soul is one of those things that help to balance the universe...and the giving...that needs to be given.....it is a tightrope walk at best,.

Ronwyn< smile tracey

StarrFu< What a great energetic gift it is to receive. Someone thinks I deserve an energy( food, cash, material) They thought about me ( I made an impact on their life) and used their energy to get it to me...( I have value to them) Whether it is a can of beans or a $100.....the greater gift is the steps in using their energy to give me an energy

Astralloon< I mean maybe pride is just an illusion. maybe we have no need to feel it because everything in our lives is mapped out and every victory we have is not one. We are just doing what we were MOST LIKELY to do in that situation. Maybe pride is something our ego has cooked up to make us feel free and in control ?????

aikiwalk< I think pride could be either debasing self or over-estimating self as a defense against truly knowing oneself and one's value

LEGS< Greetings... seminarians.... appreciate the topic and thoughtful replies

FRAML< QUESTION # 2: What else, besides pride, does one have to overcome to accept that they need to be taken care of by another?

StarrFu< lack of humility

Ronwyn< FRAML: Fear, doubt, denial

tracey< Astralloon...could be darlin...but if you are not proud of what you have done in this earth walk...you will just end up doing it again....we have a pride thing going down...deep in the soul..part of the walk..in my humble opinion...

Astralloon< what about senility? [only kidding!]


FRAML< Ronwyn & StarrFu: Ok. what do you think are behind those?

StarrFu< Separation from source and others.

Ronwyn< And I do think control or illusion of it, plays a big factor *re: Starrfu's comment*

Ronwyn< FRAML-Behind fear doubt and denial, I think from my own experience is lack of self, unworthiness, not hmm....now that I think about it..they sort of work in a cycle with each other, feeding off one another, in my case I feel it was low self esteem..mainly, that and I didn't feel loved and didn't know how to accept love.

tracey< Ronwyn...hard row to hoe darlin...believe me...we have all been there in one way or another...(((((((((((((HUG))))))))))) you got it going on now...open up to the universe and let the love hold you as you sleep darlin

aikiwalk< often building trust, letting walls come down that separated you from others. In hospice work, allowing someone to touch you in an asexual way as comfort. That one is not alone and can be with others without being consumed by them.

daCrone< you have to be able to accept love ... it sounds easy but it is not always so.

Astralloon< daCrone: Most people cant accept love because of the " Icky factor" shame.

FRAML< aikiwalk & daCrone: I agree. /// Can either of you expand?

tracey< FRAML. Well darlin' , don't see that giving up pride to allow someone to take care of you. as a good thing. Was there with the mommy person. Did not care for the fact that she felt she had to give it all up to be humble, so, to me, I think you can keep your dignity and still be cared for out of the unconditional love thingy. That we all have going down, without giving up your soul, or your person.

LEGS< Kam notes with her experience of plus 34 years on crutches or wheelchair that the steps other people save her is what she is most grateful for, appreciative of, and feels love for those near her who care enough to make that effort.

FRAML< tracey: I don't think it is a case of 'giving up pride' but realizing that one is in a position where they need the help of others. I think that there is also a need (for some) to learn how to be a grateful receiver.

Ronwyn< Tracey-the fact that I can see these enough to voice them tells you that I am on that slow process of healing and delivery, err tells me rather.

Astralloon< *head spinning*

Ronwyn< I used to think that accepting help was a sign of weakness, so I would avoid it at all cost, biting off my nose to spite my face.

LEGS< As Kam's sister, let me point out that she has always worked even on crutches or in wheelchair and made a good name for herself in the business world... she should be proud but is more easily knocked down than some might be if her work quality is ignored or demeaned...

Star12< Read Ram Dass' last book, "Still Here"....name of book(my 2 cents)

guitarist< I think that dynamics between the cared for and the caregiver have a lot to do with how much the person needing care allows him- or herself to be cared for.

Astralloon< I think the last barrier to overcome before you open yourself up to other peoples help is guilt. Things like , are they being honest with me, or, can they REALLY afford it" are thoughts that stand in the way to opening oneself up.

FRAML< During my recent hospitalization I realized that I couldn't do things for myself. I needed someone to fill the water pitcher and empty the urinal. I decided to be as cheerful a patient as possible. That I'd ask the nurses for what I needed when I needed it, but wouldn't bug them just because I felt bored. (I underwent total hip replacement surgery so was bed-fast, except for physical therapy.)

Ronwyn< Heh FRAML- I know how you are feeling, a back injury back in february still affects me.at present my computer is set up on living room floor so I have something to do while I lay around.:)gave me lots of time to think:) and reassess

aikiwalk< When you are losing a part of who you are...the known it is a loss and is grieved. To open and hear or receive from other when vulnerable is a gift, and a behavior than can be learned I think. It is a in the "now" thing. We as a society have lost touch as a comfort. Earliest comfort was given skin to skin and it is a core hunger/need and may be asexual. It is allowing humanness. It is 'safer and easier' to build walls to separate when losing control than to open the doors selectively and receive,

FRAML< aikiwalk: Yes. When I was in the hospital, I washed myself up but couldn't do my back. I asked the nurse to wash my back for me. She did it, and then put kerry lotion on it. That was something I hadn't thought of and I thanked her for her kindness.

LEGS< I have a few times been in a condition of care receiver, and it is hard for me, a giving person to be cared for gracefully; to my shame, I am a poor patient, *s* no patience.

FRAML< LEGS: Your natural position is as a care giver, thus to receive is especially hard on you.

Ronwyn< Its scary to accept help. imho it's scary for me to accept help, but not so much as it was.

Astralloon< thanks everyone, FRAML. really enjoyed the seminar. See ya later.

FRAML< Astralloon -- thank you for your participation. We meet here on most Saturday evenings at 10 or 11pm Eastern time.

Astralloon< FRAML: I'll post it in my diary! Till next saturday then.

LEGSKAM< I AM BACK..... sorry to miss so much of this seminar with the server acting up

aikiwalk< I am getting sleepy and am teaching kids in the morning. Good night to all. Hugs, if you want them.

LEGSKAM< nice to meet you aikiwalk... liked your good points in the comments

guitarist< (((aikiwalk))) Good night, then. Good night, Astralloon. Nice meeting you.

FRAML< Good night aikiwalk: remember to count your blessings before you sleep.

sharanam< Reminds me of the story where Jesus insisted on washing the disciples feet before the last supper. Peter had a difficult time with receiving.

FRAML< sharanam: good example.

LEGSKAM< What a wonderful reminder sharanam.... really a lesson there.

daCrone< I am having a lot of trouble staying online ... so I am slow slow slow tonight ... in accepting love, imho, there are several layers that may need to be addressed ... the worthy issue -- am I worthy of this attention, this love -- is one ... it happens sometimes that people rate themselves in terms of what they do, in terms of their role, not in terms of who they are ... the fact is, we are worthy ... we are blessings to life and to each other ... it is a big picture that we sometimes do not see until we reach the point where essentials are so very visible ...

Ronwyn< daCrone well said *hugs to you and your troubled server*

FRAML< daCrone: ditto to Ronwyn's comment.

LEGSKAM< Excellent thoughts daCrone..... FRAML.... prayerful attitude always helps me... recognizing that I am where I am daily to help someone with something... or to receive answers for my path from others...

FRAML< QUESTION # 3: How does one spiritually prepare to either be a care giver or be the care receiver?

Ronwyn< FRAML: For me, to be a care giver, it comes unconsciously it seems and so quick that I don't think about it; for receiving care, sometimes I still do it case by case basis, I have to allow myself to accept care, but i've found the whole process of 'having care' or 'being cared for' was long and arduous *did I answer that correctly or did I understand the question?

FRAML< Ronwyn: There are no "correct" answers that I'm looking for. :) I think you understood it. For you it is 'automatic' to give care, that is similar to LEGS. Have reflected on the process you've used to accept care? (I think that is a way to rephrase my question for you.)

Ronwyn< FRAML-ahh ok. I find its easier for me to accept care, but I still must make a mental effort to allow it. Its not as fluid and automatic as giving care is. Its really nice though, often when I do allow it, the more I allow the easier it is to allow. Heh but was not always so

FRAML< Ronwyn: Then you've learned how over time, thus you have reflected upon it. Thank you.

Ronwyn< heh grin. FRAML: I think I meant did I understand the question I know there isn't a right or a wrong*hugs*

FRAML< Ronwyn: whoops.

LEGSKAM< With being in a care support role right now. And still hobbling a bit myself, am finding it is hard to be objective. Don't have time to coddle one into doing what they need to do for themself to stay well, as someone said, easier to do it myself and come across bossy... so am trying to remember the Spiritual side. The lesson here, and that I am my mother's daughter and not that far behind her, as we have experienced very like lives and conditions. This could be me in a few years. Mercy me.

daCrone< in my experience, caregiving has often started as a military exercise = this has happened - this needs to be done - do it. That does not mean that it remains that way, but I have been surprised by events and that is how I had to approach them initially; however, continued care takes a toll. It is necessary, imho, for one to be near her/his source -- that s/he know that a greater will, a greater destiny, is afoot; to provide for others, the caregiver needs depth of spiritual resource. If it does not come up initially, it will often caregivers need caregivers of a sort to assist them in this discovery

guitarist< My thought is that we must all learn to give and receive love and care throughout our lives to be able to handle the "being cared for" part of our lives at the end. "For everything there is a season, and a time for every purpose under heaven..." And, some of us will not make it to that point, sadly. (G-d forbid that this happen to any of us tonight!)

daCrone< I agree (((guitarist))) ... in honoring receipt we learn better how to give

daCrone< And the other way around, too *S*

FRAML< Yes, one needs to learn how to be a gracious receiver. Very well said guitarist.

LEGSKAM< Indeed, graciousness covers a lot for both the care giver and the care receiver

Ronwyn< Now that's hard:)! not only doing it but being gracious*grin*

FRAML< It is now at the usual midnight end time for the seminar. I'm think that the concluding statement was best given by guitarist. I don't have anything more to add. Does anyone else have a final word on the topic?

daCrone< (((LEGSKAM))) *S*S*S* Yes, bossy happens. I think you are very wise to recognize and encourage the spiritual. There is only so much any of us can do in any given situation and, imho again, the spiritual can sustain and comfort and encourage and assist in manners we perhaps do not even see (((HUGS))).

guitarist< Yes, daCrone. Sometimes, I believe, we are allowed to receive help because we are supposed to see the state of that help to be able to improve on it. (As a child, I know I was.)

daCrone< second FRAML's ending suggestion *S*

Ronwyn< thanks FRAML-I've never been to one of these discussions, I liked how it played out, compared with just random chatting:)

sharanam< Thank you very much for the interesting discussion. Good night.

FRAML< Ronwyn: These seminars began 3 years ago last August. Ben set up the format, concept and ground rules. The primary discussion usually runs for an hour. We meet here on most Saturday nights. I've been hosting it lately. Sometimes I have a preset topic or one is suggested to me by the participants. If I have time before hand I set up a series of 3 or 4 questions about the topic.

FRAML< sharanam: Thank you for your participation. come back next week if you wish we'll be here no later than 11pm eastern time (US)

Ronwyn< Well I like it a lot:)

guitarist< Good night, dear seminarians! Sleep cometh upon those of us whose night it is; wakefulness, upon those whose lands are bathed in sunlight. May blessings, peace, prosperity and health be with you all...*`*`*`*`*`*poof*`*`*`*`*`*

FRAML< Ronwyn: If you click on my name and go to might website, look for Ben's "Spirituality, an exploratory, experimental approach" If you click on it, you will find "seminars" listed on the title page. He has the transcripts for 3 years worth of weekly seminars that he led here.

daCrone< Ronwyn:. There are transcripts from previous seminars you might want to wander through. This is such a good format for thinking through topics personally and for seeing what others feel as well. Very good input here!! FRAML -- are the posted on Ben's site?

FRAML< guitarist: Enjoy your slumber at Beth' Simmons. See you next week,

daCrone< blessings (((guitarist))) and much love to surround you like a warm blanket *S*

Ronwyn< FRAML: wow that a lot//and I like the respect there FRAML...the formate helps with that, when I first came here a month or so ago it was great, lately I've felt a divergence in the force (joking* but really sometimes its hard to find respect within these walls anymore...on some nights..

FRAML< daCrone: The seminars from this current season are actually posted on Greyman's site. Ben has a link to them from his site. As soon as I can get down stairs (another 2-3 weeks) I'll update my site and put a link to greyman's site on it.

FRAML< Ronwyn: Respect and the ability to disagree without being disagreeable has been fostered in these seminars. That is why I post Ben's groundrules and concepts at the beginning of each session.

daCrone< (((LEGSKAM))) thank you for the topic suggestion ... peace and blessings to you *S*S*S*S*

Ronwyn< sorry for typo's my eyes are tired. I know. I often don't agree with people but I say I can see your point but I don't agree, too often I come on to shouting and a bunch of bullshit if you don't mind me using that term.. I always try to foster respect but I do get upset when people don't give it. Heh darn expectations eh? :)

FRAML< Ronwyn: Your term is quite fine, and too often applicable to chat. One of the keys is asking folks why they believe what they are saying, but not attacking that belief or more importantly attacking the person.

Ronwyn< Yes I understand that. It's that others don't do that. That's my problem;most often I don't entertain them if they are being abusive.

Ronwyn< But anywho if I don't take a break from this machine my eyes will fallout, I'm sure of it. waves all, peace and light. See ya later maybe..

FRAML< the current year's seminars are at: http://greyman.home.mindspring.com/

daCrone< (((Ronwyn))) take good care ... blessings like stars to light and line your path *S*

FRAML< Ronwyn: Thank you for your participation. See you next week, or whenever you are able to get back here. Good night.

Ronwyn< huggles my favorite crone

Ronwyn< night FRAML:)!

FRAML< I think it is time for me to close down for the night as well. I'm already at St. Sealy's so the bells aren't ringing too loudly over my head.

daCrone< (((FRAML)))) as always, a good thing you have done tonight *S* ... sleep well, my friend *S*

FRAML< My thanks to you all for participating in tonight's seminar. See you next week. If you have an idea for a topic send it to me at FRShirer@aol.com Please Place "Seminar Topic" in the subject line.

FRAML< daCrone: Thank you and good night to you. :)

FRAML< Good night all. See you next week.

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