Amazon Room
Sat, 2-Jun-2001

FRAML< A personal update: I'm doing well with my recovery. I'm going to physical therapy twice a week and doing my exercises at home. I can feel my leg getting stronger, and movement becoming easier.

FRAML< Tonight's topic is on discerning the difference of the phrase "knowledge is power" and the word "wisdom." It was suggested by Trex & Selki earlier today,.

FRAML< TREX POSTED: I don't know, something spiritual, maybe like: "Will we survive to see the day when man wakes up?" Just a suggestion. Or: "Knowledge is Power" maybe. You pick. *S*

FRAML< SELKI POSTED: When is one able to discern the difference between "knowledge is power" and wisdom?

FRAML< TREX POSTED: Knowledge is power, but knowledge without wisdom is fruitless.

FRAML< Ben: I've got a partial set up for this, however I'd appreciate any help you can provide.

Ben< FRAML: Okay. I'll wait and hop in if I think I can contribute to the set-up.

Yopo< Set up? *hehe* I'm glad we're not playin' poker, or I'd have to keep a close eye on you two.

FRAML< I'm going to open with two definitions and then a question.

FRAML< knowledge: 1: understanding or skill gained by experience; a knowledge of carpentry; 2a : the state of being aware of something or of having information, b: the range of one's information or understanding; answered to the best of my knowledge; 3: something learned and kept in the mind: LEARNING; has a vast knowledge of history; synonyms KNOWLEDGE, LEARNING, SCHOLARSHIP mean what is known or can be known by a person or by human beings in general. KNOWLEDGE applies to facts or ideas acquired by study, observation, or experience; gained a knowledge of horses in growing up on a ranch.

FRAML< power: 1a: possession of control, authority, or influence over others; a politician hungry for power, b: one having such power; especially : an independent state; China is a major power in Asia; 2: ability to act or do something; lose the power of speech; 3a : physical might, b: mental strength

FRAML< Question #1a: 1. When you say or hear some one say "knowledge is power," what do you understand it to mean? (How do you define it?)

FRAML< The floor is yours.

guitarist< Q1a means to me that *what* you know *when* you know it can give you an advantage over someone else, or over your circumstances. The more you know, the sooner you know it, the better off you are.

Yopo< H'mm ... Guess I take it to mean that if one understands about certain things and their relationships, then one knows how to make desired things happen. A 2 by 4 is just a piece of wood, and a stone is just a stone, until you have knowledge of fulcrums and levers. Then you have the power of a TOOL.

selki< I think that from the experience I have had in the work field that I was in for so many years, the phrase "knowledge is power" was certainly true. The more knowledge I acquired and retained gave me power and power is something that when you have it, you want more and the more power you have, the more control you have. With knowledge came power, with power came control, but it is nothing without wisdom. The wisdom will determine how one benefits from this "knowledge power". Just my opinion.

guitarist< There you go, selki. *vbs*

FRAML< Selki :)

Hellcat7< For me it means ... knowledge of self and others is power of self ... the power to understand yourself, your own motivations and ways of thinking ... as well as giving insight into others. That knowledge empowers me to perceive myself and the world as it is, rather than being subject to distorted perceptions that come from not 'knowing' myself ... and from that comes an ability to be empathic or in harmony with the world and people around me. *S*

Ben< Among other things, knowledge provides the power of prediction, of understanding of how things work and what the likely results will be. The power of prediction enables us to make choices instead of just bashing around.

greyman< The ability to act or do something with understanding or skill gained by experience. *G*

Izme< Greetings all. It seems to me that the ability to predict is the test of knowledge, the power that comes with it.

TaraOm< What is the definition of "Power"?

Yopo< TaraOm: Power is knowledge? *S* It doesn't work so well backwards, for some odd reason ...

FRAML< POWER: 1a: possession of control, authority, or influence over others; a politician hungry for power, b: one having such power; especially: an independent state; China is a major power in Asia; 2: ability to act or do something; lose the power of speech; 3a: physical might, b: mental strength.

TaraOm< Yopo: perhaps that is the power of words???! (((vbs)))

Yopo< TaraOm: Must be a word thing. A = B, but B does not = A. No sense in THAT.

TaraOm< Yopo: so true ... and without these thoughts we wouldn't be able to partake in such enlightening dialogues. (((VBS)))

Ben< TaraOm: I think the most basic definition of power (at least in the sciences) is the ability to do work, to move something, to accomplish something.

aikiwalk< Using knowledge to gain self-control is different than using it to control others even if you see where you think they should do. Wisdom is the harness that puts constraints on knowledge so that it's energy and power is channeled in constructive ways ... in a perfect world ... maybe?

TaraOm< aikiwalk: Do you feel that we have the ability to control others without their consent? In my mind it seems to be a denial of personal power.

aikiwalk< TaraOm: Yes, when someone has given their power to another (for known or known reasons) or if someone takes away their ability to remove themselves from the situation and complies to survive. Survival is not consent.

guitarist< Thank you, aikiwalk, for a stunning observation. The words "survival is not consent" should be very comforting to people who have been through harrowing circumstances (like, for instance, being taken hostage and confessing to crimes they didn't commit, or submitting to abuse by their captors).

FRAML< Question #1b: What are the positive and negative connotations you think of when you think of knowledge &/or power?

Hellcat7< *S* Positive would be using it in ethical or compassionate ways ... negative would be using it to control others. *S*

Yopo< FRAML: Well, there's that old platitude, "A little knowledge is a dangerous thing." Certainly something negative is implied by that statement. And, "Power corrupts. Absolute power corrupts absolutely." Another negative spin on our terms.

guitarist< Q1b: Positive applications: the person who knows uses that knowledge for their own and others' benefit. Negative: the person who knows uses that knowledge for only their own benefit, disregarding that of others, or even using it against them.

FRAML< synonyms -- KNOWLEDGE, LEARNING, SCHOLARSHIP mean what is known or can be known by a person or by human beings in general. KNOWLEDGE applies to facts or ideas acquired by study, observation, or experience; gained a knowledge of horses in growing up on a ranch.

greyman< Attributes of knowledge and power: Knowledge = cognizance, acquisition of skill, curiosity, consciousness, communication, enlightenment, thought, creation. Cognitive, the power of thought. Power = cause and effect, volition, strength, vigor, force, influence, mobilization. Deprive of power = powerless.

LEGS< I see in greyman's post that knowledge includes acquisition of skill so perhaps my thought on experience is redundant.

guitarist< Yes, sometimes we think we know about a thing; then we find that we just didn't know enough. Our attempt to help under these circumstances ends up making things worse.

selki< guitarist: I feel the negative is lack of Wisdom. I always thought that one can have all the "book smarts" or knowledge that anyone could possibly have, and can debate and express whatever they feel, but a wise person knows how to listen.

TaraOm< selki: How true. One can study all the texts in the world, but until you learn to listen, wisdom evades.

guitarist< selki: And the wise person also knows how to wait for the right time.

selki< *L* guitarist: The wise person just knows when to keep his mouth shut, and let the other guy prove himself the fool.

FRAML< We'll be getting around to wisdom in the next set of questions.

LEGS< An Electric Dilemma!!! Positive and Negative ideas and actions perpetuate themselves.

Ben< FRAML: To see the power of knowledge, it may help to look at the antonyms. Lack of knowledge is ignorance. False knowledge is superstition. Neither of these are empowering.

FRAML< Ben: Thanks, I hadn't thought of that aspect. Comments, anyone?

Yopo< Ben: Ah ... But both ignorance and superstition have been used as a means to power over others. (Sorry. *G* Can't resist playing Devil's Advocate once in a while ... )

Ben< Yopo: Their own ignorance and superstition can be and are often used as a means to power over others. And vice-versa: our own ignorance and superstition can be and often are used by others as a means to power over us.

FRAML< Ben & Yopo: And I've seen those very things used in chat here in SWC regarding spiritual subjects.

Yopo< Ben: Oh, yeah. History is chock-full of examples. Fortunately, we're more alert to deception these days. *ahem*

Ben< Yopo: *S* Here's my summary of lessons from history: what we don't know *can* hurt us, and what we think we know that isn't so can hurt us even worse.

aikiwalk< Yes, keeping away knowledge and fostering the sense that the superstition is enough for others while supporting their ignorance so as to benefit oneself is quite a mind trip. That's when learning goes "underground" and is deemed dangerous for the ordinary to gain.

TaraOm< It appears that we are equating "power" with "control"?

FRAML< TaraOm: I think that is one legitimate view that some may have, that knowledge gives a person the power to control others. To me that is usually a negative connotation.

TaraOm< FRAML: Yes, I would agree. The reality (in my mind) being that we cannot change (control) others; only ourselves -- yet so often, a little knowledge becomes "a dangerous thing" in that it is used to control and overpower others. This "power" becomes a tool of the ego, making us feel, perhaps, somewhat more important or "powerful" than the others we are involved with. The greatest power comes from the ability to serve others, through our work, our play, etc. The greatest of teachers are often the most humble (seemingly unpowerful) people we will ever meet.

FRAML< TaraOm: Well said.

sauergeek: Any knowledge is useless in the wrong context. I know how to drive a car. This gives me no clues on how to catch a fish.

LEGS< Consider the situation of learning to drive. You can read the handbooks, watch others do it, learn all the signs and situations, see the training films ... but until you apply yourself to the wheel and pedals, you will never "know" how to drive. I aver that the power of Knowledge requires competent action to become power.

selki< *you get your driver's license, then you learn how to drive*

LEGS< Actually, when I hear "Knowledge is Power" I consider it to mean within a certain area ... the area that is being discussed. I have heard the phrase used like a whip ... to spur people into signing up for seminars they could most likely have lived just as knowledgeably without attending.

FRAML< LEGS: I knew that I could whip you in to being here with the topic when I saw you this afternoon. *G*


Yopo< LEGS: Useless knowledge? H'mm ... I guess context IS highly relevant.

sauergeek: LEGS: A very good point indeed. Book knowledge will only get you so far -- though book knowledge about how to drive is much more applicable than book knowledge about fishing.

selki< FRAML: But that is how some people use knowledge, to control others. History has proven that many times. *S* I would prefer to use what I know to control situations, other than actual control over a person. If you are in control over a situation, you do not need to control the person.

selki< I hope that made sense.

FRAML< Ben: Do you have a concluding comment on this before I go on?

Ben< FRAML: Just did, in my post to Yopo. *S* [Ben< Yopo: *S* Here's my summary of lessons from history: what we don't know *can* hurt us, and what we think we know that isn't so can hurt us even worse.]

guitarist< I heard that, Ben! :)

TaraOm< I thank you all for the insights -- enjoyed being here. Have to go play taxi-mom and pick up my kids. If I don't have to go to battle over the computer I may be back - if not, have a wonderful evening. Namaste..

FRAML< TaraOm: Thank you for your participation tonight. I should have the transcript edited and posted on Greyman's site in a week to ten days.

FRAML< ALL: Are you ready for the next definition (wisdom) & question?

Yopo< FRAML: Fire when ready ...

FRAML< WISDOM is (1a) learning acquired over a period of time: KNOWLEDGE, (1b) ability to see beneath the surface of things: INSIGHT, (1c) good sense: JUDGMENT; (2) a wise attitude or course of action.

FRAML< QUESTION #2a: When you hear someone say "He has wisdom," what do you understand it to mean? (How do you define it?)

LEGS< "He has wisdom." *smiling* I personally think of a sage older person, emeritus in his field; but perhaps it is more truly like the parallel of age. An "old" person is the age of your parents, perhaps a "wise" person is one who knows more than you do in any given subject?

selki< FRAML: What about foresight? Knowing what's going to happen?

Yopo< I like (1b) best. But it still seems to fall short of what I think of as Wisdom. Isn't "wisdom" more about knowing what to DO with power and knowledge? "Wisdom" is a thing of a higher order, somehow.

LEGS< I like your definition of wisdom, Yopo ... what to do indeed

sauergeek< Yopo: Your definition is the one I use as well. And wisdom seems to come primarily from learning from mistakes; you usually have to make a mistake, or be able to learn vicariously from someone else's mistake, to be able to learn from it.

Kotoki< If someone tells me they have wisdom I tend to think that they probably don't know as much as they "think" they do. Human ego tends to get large the more "knowledge" someone thinks they have, with few minor exceptions.

aikiwalk< Is it foresight? A few have that gift. Or is it being aware of environment and people and reading it well to your benefit?? Can be a natural think or learned? Do you have wisdom, be given wisdom or do you learn wisdom?

sauergeek< aikiwalk: I believe wisdom is mostly learned, either from various teachers or your own experience. The correlation between age and wisdom is a valid one, I think.

aikiwalk< Thanks, sauergeek.

Yopo< There are some very knowledgeable fools, for example. I'm not so sure about there being WISE fools, however. Except, of course, in Shakespeare. *S*

guitarist< Q2a: I take "He has wisdom" to mean that the person referred to will take the knowledge he possesses and apply it in the very best way; or do nothing, if his wisdom tells him that's the best thing.

Yopo< *nodding in agreement with guitarist*

aikiwalk< "He has wisdom," to me is when someone can see/know a situation objectively from a long term view and make decisions that may be difficult but beneficial.

LEGS< good definition, aikiwalk.

Ben< FRAML: As you know, I like to look at the antonyms. The opposite of wisdom is foolishness. No matter how much knowledge one may have.

FRAML< Ben: Are there any others? (Unfortunately, I used a student on-line dictionary tonight. My regular dictionary was downstairs, and that is still a forbidden zone for me to enter with my crutches, to go down the stairs. And the family was gone this afternoon/evening.)

Ben< FRAML: I think wisdom has only the one antonym, foolishness. However, since wisdom is defined as superior judgment (i.e., better than average), a relative lack of wisdom would be something like the average condition, and foolishness would be less than average. I'm reminded of a line in Kipling's poem "Gods of the Copybook Headings" -- "The burnt fool's bandaged finger goes wobbling back to the fire."

Yopo< Ben: The antonym comparison is instructive. I oughta think about that as a good way of analyzing. I imagine there are some wise people with very little in the way of factual knowledge. Simple folk, with great wisdom concerning the right way to live. They might be mistaken by some for fools.

Ben< Yopo: Yep, there are simple folk with great wisdom -- and in daily living, wisdom is often better than knowledge.

guitarist< I don't know about wise people not having much factual knowledge, Yopo. Maybe they just pay attention to what's important ... and to know what's important, one must have wisdom. Very important in this day of info overload.

Ben< guitarist< Yes. Wisdom involves knowing what is and isn't important. Good point.

Yopo< A knowledgeable man might have tinkered together a plan for an atomic bomb. A wise man would have promptly burned the papers. *sigh*

greyman< Yopo: An interesting supposition: is wisdom timeless? This thought was triggered: "atomic bomb" = 20th Century ultimate power. Is it our lot in life to explore and develop our talents {acquire and improve} dare I say grow? There are forms of power that make the A-Bomb look like a child's toy. The important way to look at power in that context is: "Do we have the maturity to use our gifts correctly?"

Yopo< greyman: Seems like I recall a similar point being made during one of Ben's way-back seminars. About our technology, and how it empowers us beyond our wisdom to use our power ...

Ben< Yopo: As an illustration of the difference between knowledge and wisdom, I'm reminded of the annual Darwin Awards.

selki< I think that wisdom is learned from experience.

LEGS< And at the crux of this discussion is the fact that we all judge from our own perspective; based on our own knowledge and what we have experienced.

guitarist< I second sauergeek's notion of wisdom. Lots of mistakes -- whether one's own or those of others. *vbs*

WanderingSou< *slipping in quietly to read*

FRAML< QUESTION 2b: What are the positive and negative connotations do you think of? (Perhaps the antonyms come in to play here.)

guitarist< What do the antonyms come in to play, FRAML? Hopscotch? *weg*

WanderingSou: *chuckles softly*

aikiwalk< Only other antonym I found on-line was folly, similar to fool.

LEGS< I suppose that I think first of Solomon when the word wisdom comes up in conversation ... and so to me it means a superior sort of knowledge ... unconditionally wise in any situation ... and of course fair, above all.

Jello< I haven't been really in this conversation, but I just felt I should point out what people have pointed out to me lately: one's idiocy tends to increase the worse one's mood is, and one's wisdom tends to increase the more peaceful and compassionate one is feeling. (Or maybe I mentioned this last time I was here)

FRAML< Jello: A good observation, that one's focus or mental calmness or lack of it is important in making decisions.

guitarist< I don't know if you did, Jello, but it's worth mentioning again. :)

selki< guitarist: I agree.

Jello< As a kid I always wondered why "wisdom" and "intelligence" were different in D&D-style games. Now I think I know. You can be a kind, wise soul who knows what's important without having to be a mental genius. OTOH, the Christian Bible warns against "the wise." I guess it means the self-important "wise" who aren't really.

FRAML< Jello: Yes, good examples in both cases (D&D & the Bible). I'm an ancient D&D player.

guitarist< Jello: I believe the Christian Bible also makes a distinction between devilish wisdom and G-dly wisdom, and advises for the latter.

Ben< Jello: Yes, the Bible warns against those who are "wise in their own conceits" and those who are "wise in the way of this world."

guitarist< greyman & Yopo: Empowering us beyond our wisdom is perhaps the most foolish thing of all. Like giving small children matches with no instruction and expecting them to use them correctly. Who wants to have their house burned down first?

Jello< Hey, I've played with matches. :)

Yopo< guitarist: Yep. That we CAN do a thing certainly doesn't mean we SHOULD. Our technological society could use a few "wisdom filters", but I'm not sure who should be in charge of installing the software ... *hehe*

greyman< Yopo: So long as our power testability does not go beyond reckless abandon! Case in point: "The Tralfamidorian test pilot". He has, and always will destroy the universe.

sauergeek< Unfortunately, a lot of modern technology is like children with matches. It is produced first, and then people figure out what to do with it. Recent examples include the internet, genetic engineering, and cloning.

FRAML< sauergeek: And the wisdom comes afterward, from learning what to do and what NOT to do. As discussed 2 weeks ago when Ben told about his great Uncle who worked with developing X-Ray elements. (I think, please correct me if I'm wrong.)

Ben< FRAML: Yes, my relative worked in the early development of x-ray equipment and died of the cancers it caused. Thus, people learned about that invisible danger, and those who were wise didn't have to learn it the hard way, as my relative and others did.

Ben< ALL: Another point to ponder: when asked who was the wisest man, the Oracle at Delphi said, "Aristotle is the master of those who know, but Socrates is the wisest man because he knows what he does not know."

selki< Ben: that pretty much sums it up.

LEGS< H'mm, Ben, so does that make the Oracle even wiser??? *S*

greyman: Ben: Socrates inventor of the syllogism.

Ben< greyman: Nope, Aristotle invented the syllogism -- and we haven't yet recovered from his "law of the excluded middle" [all the degrees of confidence between "true" and "false" including "untested' and "untestable"] by which he made the seeming certainty of syllogisms possible.

greyman: Ben: I sit corrected. Socratic method would eventually expose the weakness of the excluded middle. *G*

Pokeinlight: One thing that most intrigued me when I was introduced to the ideas attributed to Socrates was that while he seemed to openly profess a lack of knowledge, he continually told his students to know themselves. The Gospel of Thomas "As above so below" ... know thyself, thy feelings, thoughts, loves and fears, and know the Universe?, though surely knowledge would once again present a box. [Note: This comment has been inserted here from the end of the seminar where it was originally posted. FRAML]

Jello< Aristotle's the chap who gave us "heavier things fall faster," isn't he? The wisdom of slapstick American cartoons.

Jello< (how does one distinguish wisdom from false wisdom in oneself? that's the tricky part)


greyman: Yopo: Tee Hee, I can relate to Stoney Stevenson.

Lo< Yopo: Don't you suppose several wise men, each with much WISDOM and the hand of a most wise God, as well, would be required?

greyman< Lo: Wisdom is a gift.

Yopo< Lo: The problem with that is, Who chooses who's wise?

Lo< Yopo *returning a wink* (Smile) Perhaps that's where the hand of that God becomes a necessary ingredient, maybe?

sauergeek< Yopo: There has been a lot of talk recently about teaching ethics to college students, especially those going into science or engineering. Because of this, philosophy departments suddenly have more to do. A random thought: science fiction has been preparing us for things like cloning and genetic engineering for some time; it is also trying to prepare us for things like faster-than-light travel, time travel, and ever more powerful weapons and power supplies. I wonder how much of it is applicable to today? Another random thought: I wonder what the repercussions of fire were, when it was first discovered and harnessed.

Yopo< sauergeek: That seems positive. Though I might have started with the business majors. Or -- the law department?

LEGS< Thoughtful queries, sauergeek ... in our world today, info on what is tried and fails circles the globe in an instant, whereas the fire mishaps may have taken lifetimes to relate to another.

FRAML< sauergeek: Unfortunately, I saw the beginning of the decline in ethics back in college in the late 60's when "situational ethics" became the rage of philosophy departments. Unfortunately, it even penetrated the Catholic college I attended, although only the lay philosophers taught it, and not the priests. I've always rejected it as inherently false.

sauergeek: FRAML: Situational ethics? I've heard the term, but don't know what it means.

FRAML< sauergeek: What is considered good or bad is based solely on the situation one is in at the moment, not any pre-existing set of ethics that one lives by. Thus, if I need something right now, then it is OK for me to steal it.

sauergeek: That's what I was afraid "situational ethics" meant. ick.

Yopo< FRAML: I got a good dose of "situation ethics" during my last couple of years at an Episcopal high school. For me, it made sense, but only as tool for the evaluation of actions when more than one traditional moral principle seems part of the same puzzle. It can't be the starting point. IMHO.

sauergeek: I hope, but do not know, that the ethics being taught or suggested for college students are more absolute than that.

FRAML< I've got two final questions that I'll post together.

FRAML< QUESTION #3a. How can the search for knowledge be used for good or used for bad? (Do you have any actual examples?) QUESTION #3b. Does "wisdom" include the quest for power?

Jello< #3b: Wouldn't true wisdom require the quest for power only if necessary to preserve or promote something good? (e.g., a strong military in wartime.) But how do you know when it's necessary? Ah, isn't that wisdom?

FRAML< Jello: Excellent question. TO ALL -- Comments please.

Yopo< Well, Jello's got a point. But it sorta takes us back to where we started. If knowledge is power, can knowledge be sought without power appearing as a by-product? We wouldn't want to give up our quest for knowledge. *rolling eyes* To do so probably wouldn't be wise.

Jello< And even the wise make mistakes. Heck, if they didn't make mistakes, would they be wise?

aikiwalk< Sometimes power is used wisely to upset and remove those who wield their power for their own good and no one else. Often the informal leader has "power" bestowed from peers and formal leaders have it given/assumed.

guitarist< Q3a: Actual example: discovery of how to split the atom (knowledge). I understand that Einstein didn't want to make this discovery known because he knew that men would make a powerful weapon out of it and use it for war (wisdom). He was right; out of that came the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki (which stopped Japanese ambitions in WW2 but also killed millions of civilians) -- and worse, the threat of atomic annihilation for the rest of human existence.

FRAML< guitarist: Actually, fewer Japanese died in both atomic bomb attacks than in the first large firestorm raid on Tokyo in early 1945, over 300,000 that night. However, I think we learned the wisdom that the power of the bomb was more that anyone expected, thus we haven't used it since then. I have often mused about how many times nukes might have been used if we hadn't bombed Hiroshima and Nagasaki and learned what we did.

sauergeek< guitarist: There was also a great deal of concern that the first fission would chain-react and destroy the planet. And from my reading of WW2 history, the alternative to the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki was trying to take Japan conventionally, which (according to the strategists) would have cost millions more lives, both American and Japanese.

FRAML< sauergeek: You are correct on the casualty estimates. Considering that the Japanese fought to the last solider and civilian on Okinawa and Saipan, would any have surrender when Kyushu was invaded? [Note: The last chapter in "Rising Sun Victorious" discusses that very scenario. It is available from Stackpole Books. I wrote the book's chapter on Pearl Harbor.]

selki< I think that you have to define "true wisdom" and again, with wisdom why would you need the power quest?

Jello< It also occurred to me that true wisdom often stops the need for using, say, military power (ref: now-famous Aikido story of man who calms situation by listening, instead of reverting to martial-arts). Yet, wisdom tells us we aren't perfect, so it's best to be cautious (i.e., being prepared doesn't hurt ... or does it?)

Jello< (Err, clarification on Aikido story: man resolves situation by listening kindly, while aikidoka nearby, who had been ready to use Aikido, realizes the act of listening/calming was real Aikido)

sauergeek: Being prepared can hurt if you only think of the ways that you are prepared. I think this ties into the saying, "If all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail."

aikiwalk< A parent lets a child fall ... and learn. A parent lets a child play games and win or lose and learn. A parent lets a child feel something sharp and says no. If you see them begin to run out in front of a car and cannot stop them, you are powerless. When the cost of learning is too high, parent will do nigh anything to stop the child.

WanderingSou< *chin in hand* wisdom is the ability to share knowledge without fear. *little shrug* To allow knowledge to remain hidden ... is unwise.

greyman< Sun Tzu's Art of War recorded timeless wisdom.

Ben< greyman: Confucius say, "If neighbor is sharpening battle-ax and glancing at you, it isn't wise to think he intends to chop wood."

iamshe: Ben< *LOL* Good one *S*

greyman: Ben, Speak softly and carry a big Tesla Coil. *G*

Jello< You just do the best you can, and sometimes you even go along with stupid impulses and you make mistakes. Isn't that life? If you took that out of life, you wouldn't have life left, would you? Doesn't just trying to live life have its own inherent wisdom?

Ben< Jello: Yes, it is wise to live the best we can, and yes, we will make mistakes. Hopefully we will make less foolish mistakes as we go along.

LEGS< Ah, Ben, both foolishness and wisdom come in degrees to all of us. Grant that we may discern the difference.

FRAML< That exhausts my list of questions for the night. Ben, do you have a concluding statement? I couldn't come up with one.

Ben< FRAML: I think you and the whole group have covered this subject very well. Lots of insights. As a concluding statement ... I have read somewhere: "Acquire knowledge, and with it, understanding, but most of all seek wisdom."

greyman: Ben: Good epilogue.

LEGS< Well done, Ben.

FRAML< Ben: thank you. // TO ALL: Thank you for coming tonight and participating. This ends the focused part of tonight's seminar. The keyboard and screen are now open.

FRAML< /topic Open Discussion: Knowledge, Power, & Wisdom.

Jello< Sometimes I think if we know what wisdom is, then there's absolutely no way that we're right.

iamshe: H'mm ... when one seeks wisdom ... does not one already have an idea of what is wise?

Ben< iamshe: Yes, and also the realization that one doesn't already have enough wisdom.

iamshe< Ben: So one basically seeks to justify their thoughts on what is wise.

Ben< iamshe: Well, maybe ... but preferably to calibrate, adjust, refine -- and perhaps significantly change -- their preconceptions of what is wise.

iamshe< Ben: Yes ... for example, my daughter may think it wise to speak to me in a certain way ... my response tells her unequivocally that it is unwise ... her thoughts have misinformed her of the reality of what is wise and so she must alter her idea of wisdom.

Ben< iamshe: Yes. Good example. And it works the other way, too. I've gained some wisdom from trying to be a good husband, father, and grandfather.

iamshe< Ben: Yes, it does work both ways. *S*

Pokeinlight< I have pleasantly read the last few pages, to attempt to join my awareness with that of the group, and was pleased by the ideas and humor.

guitarist< We're all glad you could be here and enjoy it, Pokeinlight.

Pokeinlight< I wanted to share ideas as I read though I prefer the role of student to that of the teacher, so I contentedly read on, though I now feel I have disrupted a flow, a dynamic of the group, and my intention was most certainly not so.

guitarist< Not at all, Pokeinlight. Our seminars usually run an hour and then open for discussion. I hope you'll come again.

FRAML< Pokeinlight: You aren't disrupting anything. Please add any comment you have on what you've read. This is open discussion.

Ben< Pokeinlight: Hi! Glad you enjoyed it. We're just past the end of the one-hour seminar and one-hour discussion. The transcript will be available on greyman's site in a few days.

Pokeinlight< Thank you, though I am content with my timing. I have been enjoying the past several hours also. *smile

FRAML< Pokeinlight: If you come back tomorrow and click on ReviewLog you can read the entire seminar. We began about 2 hours ago. It will be posted in the near future on greyman's website.

Pokeinlight: Thank you all most kindly. *smile*

Jello< With parent-child relationships (heck, any relationships) I've found that usually wisdom lies outside both parties. :)

Ben< Jello: Yes, in relationship problems, it is often wise to seek a more objective point of view. *S*

FRAML< Folks, it is time for me to depart for the evening. Thank you all for your participation. If you have any topics you want to be discussed next week please let me know.

Jello< No one I know has ever agreed 100% with anyone else about any topic, say, as deep as spirituality -- unless we are talking about fundamentalists where there is a supreme lack of questioning. To paraphrase Ben, Truth is that which is so whether we like it (or know it) or not, and I think, given the lack of agreement on anything, that no one has it 100%. Really quite maddening sometimes.

FRAML< Jello: Those who ask questions are seen as 'questioning God' and thus driven out.

Jello< Someone needs to compile a book of miracles that occur for people OTHER than strict good little fundamentalists ... sigh. Oh, oops, just thinking irrelevant thoughts.

Pokeinlight< Love to all. While I know not, our perspective has lead ... to believe that knowledge is found within a box, a conceptual framework that is coherent and consistent with itself, and it seems to work for all participants and players common to the box. If the nature of reality is infinite, then the infinity both within and outside of the box would prove any knowledge to be quite limited indeed, perhaps even mistaken when an enhanced awareness is attained. Perhaps Socrates was the wisest of all because he had no knowledge, and chose to take up residence outside of the box.

Jello< And of course one never completely knows oneself, does one? :)

Ben< ALL: Okay, it's time for me to hang up the mouse. (It hates that, but at least it doesn't run away during the night.) Peace and blessings to each of you. *poof*

sauergeek< LOL Ben, goodnight.

guitarist< Good night, Ben. Maybe you should put your mouse in a cage with a wheel in it. (Mice like their exercise too.)

FRAML< Good night to all: Remember to count your blessings before you sleep.

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