FRAML: /topic BEN'S SEMINAR: Acceptance of Others. Host: Guitarist
Amazon 2001/09/08 0300 GMT, 10pm ET, 9pm CT, 8 pm MT, 7pm PT
Thanks to LEGS for the topic's title

Prelude to the Seminar:

guitarist : Hi there, FRAML...I hope things are well for you. I've been following the Durban conference on racism etc., and it's going so badly I wonder whether our group could do better. I know it's hard, but I think that illustrates precisely why we're here. I believe that "race," as many other human traits, is a blessing from G-d that evil people have turned into a curse...different varieties of people can be viewed as beautiful, like the birds, animals and plants of the world. By considering certain people beneath our notice or care, we dismiss angels, unaware of their nature because they resembled people we would reject. On the other hand, by seeing through our differences to the spirit within...ahhhhhh! And now, I'll get off my soapbox. :) Thank you very much. I'll see you guys later, and blessings on all.

SimonTeddy: guitarist: I agree. I also think it shows how hard it is for nations and governments to accept responsibility; just as it is with individuals. Poeple don't like to confront their own shadows. It's far easier to blame someone else. India, for example, does not want to discuss the horrifying conditions under which 160,000,000 Dalits (Untouchables) are forced to live. It reaches the point of absurdity when the U.S.A. refuses to identify slavery as a crime against humanity.

FRAML : SEMINAR CONCEPT -- These seminars are open to anyone who wants to attend. Each seminar will explore a stated topic. Each meeting will be a one hour guided discussion, followed by unguided discussion of the topic. There will be no fees or other charges, no grading system, and no predetermined "school solution." Selected portions of the meeting transcripts will be posted on this site -- but not if they contain a statement such as "off the record".

FRAML: SEMINAR GROUNDRULES -- Courtesy is expected. Instead of attacking what others believe, say what you believe -- or politely ask others to explain what they post. Please keep your posts reasonably brief, and please don't get into off-topic side conversations. Please use the private message function to send greetings to new arrivals and to "whisper" in class once it starts. That way the text is easier for everyone to follow, and it is easier for me to clean up the transcript afterward.

FRAML: I still don't have a topic for discussion.

LEGS: Why not use the one guitarist enlarged upon in the notes above...before this evenings session...and I quote: guitarist: Hi there, FRAML...I hope things are well for you. I've been following the Durban conference on racism etc., and it's going so badly I wonder whether our group could do better. I know it's hard, but I think that illustrates precisely why we're here. I believe that "race," as many other human traits, is a blessing from G-d that evil people have turned into a curse...different varieties of people can be viewed as beautiful, like the birds, animals and plants of the world. By considering certain people beneath our notice or care, we dismiss angels, unaware of their nature because they resembled people we would reject. On the other hand, by seeing through our differences to the spirit within...ahhhhhh! And now, I'll get off my soapbox. :) Thank you very much. I'll see you guys later, and blessings on all.

Ben: LEGS: My soapbox agrees with your soapbox. *S*

LEGS: Belated Birthday greetings Ben..the third, right? I was out of town.

Ben: ALL: a small story for your amusement. Last Sunday a dear friend at church looked at me carefully and said, "You don't look a year older." I said, "I'm not. My birthday is tomorrow." She said, "OK, you just wait!". That dear friend is out of town this weekend, but she will be waiting tell me I look a year older as soon as I arrive at church next week.

guitarist: Thank you, LEGS, for seconding the topic. Well, I don't exactly have notes for a seminar on racism. However, I have wanted to discuss how we deal with the differences we encounter every day. As noted above, I believe that they are meant to be 1) positive (as in the diversity of life in other species as well as our own); 2) an exercise in overcoming barriers to spiritual connection and 3) a disguise for angels among us.

guitarist: Please hang in there with me. My connection's a little slow tonight.

[guitarist: as it turned out, it was SpiritWeb's server that was slow...and on its way down for a couple of days.]

suitESPirit: Aren't we 'instructed' to "not turn strangers away...they may be angels in disguise"......

STARX: SUITESPIRIT did you feel like a stranger?

suitESPirit: At times I do STARX ~~~ Why???

STARX: SUITESPIRIT oh, you said something about being kind to strangers. I wasn't sure if you had felt left out or something.

suitESPirit: Thank you StarX~~~~ That's a Bible quote.. I am amongst friends in here.

STARX: SUITESPIRIT you've been on here long? I used to come in here all the time! And we'd all get into these great conversations and now I haven't been in here for almost 3 years except for quick peep a few months ago and now i see people who were here back then.

guitarist : On the other hand, other differences are ugly to many of us...disfigurement is not given that name for nothing, whether birth defects or from some other cause. I believe this is supposed to help us, again, look for the inner beauty in these people.

LEGS : Perhaps that is the reason, guitarist... an enforced lesson ... especially when something happens to one of us who has been beautiful, accepted, etc... thinking of the man who plays superman... and his tragic accident. Many who are so disabled are shunned by others... just as some shun other races than their own.

guitarist: Yeah, LEGS...what's happening is that many people who, by their presence at a conference such as that at Durban, are claiming that they want to be anti-racist. And then these same people are handing out anti-Semitic literature, complete with demonic-looking Jewish men with beards and calling Zionism racism. How does that strike you? I saw pictures of all this stuff in Yahoo and other places. Which begs the question: how do you communicate your non-racism (to put it very awkwardly) without making yourself a hypocrite on the one hand or obnoxious on the other?

Ben: Comment: no matter who does it to whom, racism is unjust.

guitarist: Yes, Ben. Thank you for that comment.

STARX: WOW YOPO! I remember you! or I think i heck, I guess we're all one anyway!

Yopo: STARX Hmm... I SUPPOSE that's a good thing... *s*

STARX: YOPO..hahaha

Yopo: A belated Happy Birthday, Ben. I suppose the cake is gone by now. *S*

STARX: LEGS what are you referring to with guitarist?

LEGS: STARX ... this hour is for a regularly scheduled seminar tonite the hostess is guitarist and she has just introduced the topic... which I would call acceptance of others ... please stay and join the discussion...

STARX: Oh dear, please forgive me for interupting!!

Ravenheart: Blessings of greetings. First time for the seminar in full... I love the topic being discussed... *S*

MarriAna: hm** wouldn't think one can communicate it to someone who doesn't wish to know about it** but should be easy to tell to someone who does wish to know**

STARX: GUITARIST, that is definitely a difficult question. It seems to me as long as people are not completely free inside themselves then there will be factionalisn. And as long as people have little hates about themselves inside, then they will continue to project and/or manifest that reality on the outside.

MarriAna: from what I can see it's all about projecting one's fears etc. onto others** people who do that usually don't wish to be told they're doing it, cause then it won't work anymore and they'll have to face parts of themselves they don't like to face.

guitarist: STARX and MarriAna, very good observations. Others?

Bjays_Angel: Ok, this is something to do with acceptance. My Mom Bjay has never given up on me even though I can be a handful and have problems. She could have just walked out on me and not accepted me at al for who I am. But instead she accepted me as her child without being ashamed of me. She is a good Mother who I love dearly and I am honored to have her in my life.

Ravenheart: That is true Bjays Angel... You have lived thru much prejudice in here becuase people have difficulty understanding your situation... and through the love of a kind and gentle soul, you have also learned alot about acceptance and being loved unconditionally... prejudice is based on hate, but hate is always based on fear...fear is at the root of every bigoted motivation...

guitarist: I'm going to look for definitions of a few words. BRB

guitarist: Main Entry: racism Pronunciation: 'rA-"si-z&m also -"shi- Function: noun Date: 1936 1 : a belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race 2 : racial prejudice or discrimination - racist /-sist also -shist/ noun or adjective

guitarist : Here's one for a related word, prejudice: Main Entry: 1prejudice Pronunciation: 'pre-j&-d&s Function: noun Etymology: Middle English, from Old French, from Latin praejudicium previous judgment, damage, from prae- + judicium judgment -- more at JUDICIAL Date: 13th century 1 : injury or damage resulting from some judgment or action of another in disregard of one's rights; especially : detriment to one's legal rights or claims 2 a (1) : preconceived judgment or opinion (2) : an adverse opinion or leaning formed without just grounds or before sufficient knowledge b : an instance of such judgment or opinion c : an irrational attitude of hostility directed against an individual, a group, a race, or their supposed characteristics synonym see PREDILECTION

guitarist: Dictionary definitions from Merriam Webster's site

Ravenheart: This is a most intriguing conversation. I just bought a book that popped out at me called 'The Secret War against the Jews'... written by John Loftus and Mark Aarons... It discusses how Europe, Russia, and the West betrayed and continue to betray the Jewish people and the state of Israel keeping it in turbulence for the sake of Palastinian and Arabic oil...*sigh* capitalism and racism... the constant shame of humankind.

Bjays_Angel: (((((((((((Ravenheart)))))))))))) I agree with you hon. I think a lot of people like to judge others because they cannot accept themselves for who they really are.

MarriAna: Even among lightworkers you find they need "enemies" and will put down and label whole races, such as greys, reptilians and insectoids** it is very nasty to watch**...I think they best contribution would be to cleanse out one's own prejudices**

Yopo: I think, maybe, there is something about certain personality types that NEEDS someone or something to hate. Needs a place to focus this darkness inside...

STARX: YOPO I agree that we have to become big enough to be able to accept both our light and dark side inside so that then we won't have a need to project out our unaccepted parts onto others

MarriAna: don't be ridiculous Yopo, we all have the potential to become whole, you imply they don't have the potential to heal, that need can only be a distortion and not their true Self, imo.

STARX: as the zen saying goes "Likes and dislikes are a disease of the mind". As long as we are attached to a particular idea or prejudice, we are closed off to the whole picture

MarriAna: In any case what good will it do to look at others' prejudices if all we can do about is is transform our own, wouldn't it be more productive to look at our own biased views.

STARX: MARRIANA I agree. To me the quickest and most effective way to create change is to change on the inside, then the outside will follow.

guitarist: Yes, MarriAna, we need to examine our own attitudes first. And, as Ben pointed out earlier, it doesn't matter who does it, it's wrong.

Yopo: MarriAna, I don't know that I completely agree. There was a documentary on the TV the other night about white supremacists. They interviewed one of their more articulate spokesmen. (Name escapes me at the moment.) Lookin' into this guy's eyes was like looking into the heart of darkness or something. Left me deeply disturbed, deeply puzzled. Where love is the clockspring that drives some lives, this guy was driven by pure hatred. He seemed to relish it.

MarriAna: Yopo okay here we go, so what is darkness to you, and do you think everyone who has "darkness" in his eyes is basically mean and should be "removed" or whatever?!

Yopo: Hmm... Maybe that was like comparing a thing to itself, using different terms. The darkness was nothing more or less than blind hate.

MarriAna: Yopo okay, so what about those people driven by blind hate?? What should be done about them, in your opinion??

Yopo: MarriAna, if I knew that I wouldn't be so puzzled. I can only live my own life the way I think it should be lived, and say what I think when confronted with darkness. Both love and hate seem to be contagious. I'll try to be a carrier of love.

MarriAna: Yopo, to me both darkness and light are illusions, and the truth is mutlidimensional and doesn't need such labels, and it's all a matter of awareness - nothing is good or bad in its true state.

Yopo: MarriAna *sigh* This, I've heard many times before. On some ultimate level, perhaps the light and dark in this world of illusion merge into a right and proper singularity of Truth. But I am here, part of the great Play, and cannot escape the obvious fact that some acts are better, some acts are worse. Ultimately one must judge if an act is done in love, or motivated by something less worthy. When I escape from Illusion, I will perhaps have no further need for such judgments, but that time is not yet.

MarriAna: fine, then I'm going to state that I believe no one can change another entity if the other entity is not willing, and the whole point of the exercise is to transform one's own attach/defense and victim/aggressor patterns in one's energy fields, and thus you won't attract anyone who will attack you and you will be basically harmless. To me it's not a "harmless act" to use violence against someone who is using violence against another - this kind of behaviour just makes the violence spread. I'd rather practise uttering strong commands for peace than indulgence in any violent behaviour.

LEGS: Yes, MarriAna ... it is however, easier to profess such strong statements and commands when one is not facing a crowd of people who are not "on your side."

MarriAna: LEGS of course that's easier, lol, however I don't mean just saying "be peaceful" or whatever, it's more of an electrical charge coming forth from your aura, commanding peace, and it can be practised.

Yopo: MarriAna: Alas, that failed to stop the NAZIs. must resort to the illusion of force? Failure to take a stand can be as bad as anything else. I admit, this business of right-action and wrongful-inaction is a VERY confusing topic.

MarriAna: Yopo, well you can ask to see the truth, it's a matter of your firm and clear intent.*** The question is do you really wish to see it, or would you rather learn about judging others some more.***

MarriAna: Yopo do you really believe there were that many who actually tried to stop the Nazis in a peaceful manner ?? transforming their own willingness (whether conscious or more likely unconscious) to be either victim or aggressor? I don't think so at all.

Yopo: MarriAna, I don't know. I would imagine there were many who prayed, though I know that isn't what you mean. I cannot deny the power of passive resistance. Ghandi freed a nation in that manner. Still, the situations were different. I doubt if passive resistance on the part of the Jewish population would have worked in Nazi Germany. The English were unwilling to kill the innocent. The Nazis felt no such restraints.

MarriAna : Yopo I'm talking about active transformation not passive resistance.

LEGS: I do hope, MarriAna, that you are not put in a violent situation with which you will protect yourself with nothing but kind thought projections. Peace to all... is a fine logo... but sanity calls for protection of a more material type.

MarriAna: LEGS: who is going to put me in such a situation but I myself.

Jello: Yopo -- I like what you said. It occurred to me, though: if we are called to forgive those who wrong us, then maybe it is that which helps us prepare for that stage where we perhaps can see everything from a different perspective?

greyman: Jello, Forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us. *G*

Jello: greyman: Aye, and sometimes it is hard to forgive! Oh boy is it ever.

greyman: Jello, yes sometimes if we wish to be a "sharp tool", we must put our self on the grinding wheel.

Bjays_Angel: I belive that most of us have learned that we cannot accept others until we truly accept ourselves for who we are and be proud of ourselves for we have become. Like for example, last year I was going through a lot of self esteem issues and accepting myself for who I am. I would think to myself, I am not worthy of love, I am not a good person, I don't deserve to have friends, etc. I belive that when you put yourself down it is hard for others to accept you for who you truly are. I finally realised I am somebody and that I am very special in my own way. We are all special in our own way.

guitarist: Many of you are bringing up self-acceptance. This is helpful. It is hard to expect people to respect you when you don't respect them or yourself. On the other hand, it took me a long time to appreciate my heritage (I happen to be Jewish, as are some others in this room). And then, from there, I found it easier to appreciate others' heritage.

MarriAna: hehe guitarist, well I have a thing with biased people - can't stand them, lol.***

suitESPirit : one of the key words there is "an *irrational* attitude of hostility... How can you rationalize with someone that thinks "their" way/beliefs ARE the only way ~~~

MarriAna: suitespirit you can't rationalize, it's about accepting they have chosen this lesson.***

suitESPirit: That's MY point !!! You CAN'T rationalize~~~

MarriAna: suitespirit indeed you can't, so what ??**

guitarist: Now, I know this is a very difficult discussion, but please let's be civil. We know that discarnate spirits and other "stuff" will try to influence us to attack one another. ***We are all friends here*** -- Please let's remember that. (((HUGS)))

FRAML: For the new folks who came late: Seminar Concept (revised 21 April 1999) These seminars are open to anyone who wants to attend. Each seminar will explore a stated topic. Each meeting will be a one hour guided discussion, followed by unguided discussion of the topic. There will be no fees or other charges, no grading system, and no predetermined "school solution." Selected portions of the meeting transcripts will be posted on this site -- but not if they contain a statement such as "off the record". Groundrules (revised 21 April 1999) Courtesy is expected. Instead of attacking what others believe, say what you believe -- or politely ask others to explain what they post. Please keep your posts reasonably brief, and please don't get into off-topic side conversations. Please use the private message function to send greetings to new arrivals and to "whisper" in class once it starts. That way the text is easier for everyone to follow, and it is easier for me to clean up the transcript afterward.

guitarist: Looking at myself...I'm having a very hard time being objective about the "Palestinians." (I wrote it in quotes deliberately. We'll see why in a moment. But now, the background.)

croc: pardon me, having come into the chat late**...thinking about acceptance of first belief is that one needs to be able to accept oneself before being able to accept another...

guitarist: Palestine means Philistine, from the Bible: Israel's worst enemy. Hebrew: Plishtim. Arabic: Falastin. Both of these mean Palestinian and Philistine. Before 1967, only Jews who lived in pre-state Israel, which was then called Palestine, were refered to as Palestinians. The Arab Palestinians took on that name in 1967, after the 6-Day War. They were, apparently, the same people who called themselves "Southern Syrians" before that. Those of us who lived during that time and were paying attention can attest to that. And, my mother's birth mother was born and raised in Palestine, a Sephardic Jewess; her family, as far as I know, had been there forever. My mother told me that we were Palestinian Jews when I was 4 years old. So...what do I think of the Palestinians in the current situation? I feel bad for them; their brethren, the other Arabs, who enticed them away from the land in the first place, will not absorb them, but keep them in camps, all the while blaming the Jews for having come back into their own homeland.

greyman: guitarist, Ah, if vee could but release our "spiritual" excess baggage.

croc: guitarist..your references to the Palestinians reminds me of a parallel of the Dalai Lama.

soulsflyt: Children learn what they live. As adults, they have choices on what to keep and what to throw away.

Bjays_Angel: Well dear friends, I am getting very sleepy -- had a long weekend so far. Need my rest. (((((((HUG))))))))) hope I made sense.

LEGS: The current conflict in the East is of such long standing...dates back to Biblical history ... and unfortunately none of us are going to be able to wave the magic wand or invent the magic potion to solve all the problems inherent (and inherited) in the situation. We each must speak for our own actions in any circumstance. Let us try to do that and do it well.

Ravenheart: I was born of Jewish descent as well as Spanish mother was Jewish, my father was Puerto Rican. Just call me the female version of Freddy Prinz or Geraldo Rivera. I grew up knowing hatred wherever I went. "in certain ways..." each side of myself held disdain for me... not within myself, but from others towards me, additionally, I was a beautiful girl/woman and that brought forth cruelty and loneliness... because of this, I was inspired to look at my own bigotries and access what within me needed changing so that the outer world would not reflect such animosity in my direction... and I had to get brutally honest... and today, I still have a few prejudices that continue to challenge me... such as Nazism and skinheads, KKK, the government leaders and politicians that betray their people at every turn, it makes my heart curl up inside and withdraw to the palce within that only knows of love...It is about the stand that we each chose to take in our lives, how do we go about living and loving ourselves, our family, our neighbors, our community, our state, our country, our global family, our universal family, deep within, we are born of the same and we will die to the same for we are the same, AND we must be honest to say, "this rises up within me" and face it, look within it, and accept it and pass through it and beyond, again, bigotry is based on hate which is born of fear, so what do we fear, and why do we fear this.

LEGS: Well said, Ravenheart....

Ravenheart : Perhaps that there is no wrong, yes, Jello? that there is no wrong, nor is there right, but just that there is...and we value it or we don't based on our own sets of judgments OR discernments. Thank you (((LEGS))) I was feeling quite invisible, and was about ready to leave, so thank you for noting a post of mine. *S*

Jello: Ravenheart: Well, perhaps. There is a wide range of opinion on whether there is anything truly right or truly wrong. I think it's safe to say there are places and attitudes I'd rather associate with, and places and attitudes that I see as being unpleasant for those who keep them. It also comes down to questions of free will, whether souls can eternally die or not, and what kind of world a free-willed soul wants to be part of.

Ravenheart: IMHO, I know that we are of the same source... and we are at different levels of our own growth. I do not see things as evil as I see things as thoughts, beliefs, actions based on the most primal and darkest seeds of fear and harmfulness... less evolved beings live through their more basic and lowest of energies... trying on and out experiences that seem awful, horrible and evil, and others, who have evolved to a higher vibration in nature live out a more peaceful and loving life... and have a more encompassing ability to be compassionate in the face of fear/hatred/prejudice.

Jello: Let's just not ever get to the point of saying "It's wrong to believe in right and wrong" Because that would be too ironic, eh? :)

LEGS : I don't think that accepting oneself is the necessary component to stopping hate of others.. or even mild unacceptance of others... For one thing, many of us are perfectionists and will never be satisfied completely enough with ourselves to be totally accepting of who/what/where we are... The world can't wait for that to happen. We need to practice acceptance of different races as simply being humans as ourselves, meaning with their differences in color/heritage/culture/and habits. We do not have to accept violence in anyone, our own race...our own family included.

Ben: I don't subscribe to the idea that acceptance or tolerance is the highest virtue. My position in regard to any entities who are manifesting hatred is: (1) pity them, because their own hatred is consuming them from within, (2) watch them very closely, and (3) be ready to restrain them quickly if they act on that hatred by attempting to damage others. I will use the minimum amount of force necessary to prevent them from damaging others, and try not to damage them, but I will not tolerate cruelty.

guitarist: Yes, Ben, I agree, but, as Dr. King once said, "I have a dream that one day my children will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character." This includes the pity, watchfulness and restraint, if necessary, that you mention. We need to see good character -- and bad -- regardless of the package it comes in. *s*

Yopo: *S* I like what Ben posted. Seems entirely right and proper.

MarriAna: guitarist, so you say basically you like to judge and be judged? by content of character ?

guitarist: MarriAna, I would rather be judged by my character than the fact that I am Jewish. The two do not correlate. Neither do being African and having character, nor being Austrian and having character. *s*

MarriAna: guitarist, that wasn't my question, the question was: "do you think judging is necessary at all", but I think you answered that when you said you believe you have to play along with the illusion of good and evil, as long as you believe that you are going to judge and be judged, you are going to project that believe onto the people you meet.

FRAML: one must be willing to be evaluated by others by their character. Do I live by what I espouse? If I do, then I have no fear of being called a hypocrite or being attacked that I speak one way and act another. Thus I am willing to be judged by my character, and to judge others by a similar they live what they say they believe?

FRAML : MarriAna: How are you defining the word "judge"? As to 'render a decision,' 'to discern whether one acts and speech are in accord,' or 'to condemn'? I've seen people use one of these definitions while others used another one, and thus were inadverently talking past each other.

MarriAna: FRAML there's a difference between judging and evaluating, mainly I'd think it's about re-acting, if you judge something as "bad" you might find yourself trying to do something against it, or the person.*** And forget that you must have projected your own self onto that thing or person, and that you can only do soemthing "against or for yourself, if you want things changed.

FRAML: MarriAna: When I evaluate a person by whether or not their actions and spoken beliefs are in accord, I don't necessarily have to label them "good or bad" by my own beliefs. I can use their own proclaimed standards and actions to decide whether or not they are good or bad in the view of what they set. I can also decide if their ways are good or bad from my view, however that decision is not a condemnation of their soul.

Yopo: FRAML: I prefer "discernment" to "judgment" these days. "Judgment" seems to have taken on some negative connotations. *S* One can still exercise "good judgment", but you'd better not "judge" anybody, or you'll be drummed out of the New Age...

FRAML: Yopo: That is why I'm still in the old age. *S*

guitarist: MarriAna: how many friends do you have who have lied to you, betrayed you or have stolen from you? These are things that show character (or the lack thereof). People need to be aware of stuff like this when they choose their friends. :)

MarriAna : guitarist, same answer as to Ravenheart, it's my fault if that happens, I have to transform myself if I don't like it *S*

greyman: acceptance (k-sptns) n. 1.Favorable reception; approval. 2.Belief in something; agreement. 3.Abbr. acpt. a.A formal indication by a debtor of willingness to pay a time draft or bill of exchange. b.A written instrument so accepted. 4.Law. Compliance by one party with the terms and conditions of another's offer so that a contract becomes legally binding between them. With respect to the acceptance of others, if any personal "violation" is encountered, all bets are off. You can only accept that which you're willing to accept: e.g., I am sure that not too many of us would be willing to have lunch with Adolph Hitler.

Ravenheart: After reading the definition on acceptance, I do not feel that we must agree to get along... that we must approve of another to be tolerant, or to love, or to even enjoy one another... If that is what acceptance means, then perhaps we are using the word not of our intent, so perhaps tolerant is a better choice, or perhaps, there is another.

croc: I believe that if we cannot accept certain aspects belief within our own selves, then it is logical that we will also notice those things in another.

croc : Ravenheart ...I would tend to agree with your word 'tolerance' for acceptance.

guitarist: It is interesting to see how people turn the question of accepting other people's appearance and other traits into acceptance of evil along with good. I don't think it should be that way: we all need to maintain our vigilance against evil, even though some may believe that they are all from the same source. In practical, earthly reality, they are not, IMO.

yankl: To be practical, we have to accept that people will do whatever their "free will" will allow them to do. However, we need to do whatever is nessesary to keep those people and their actions from harming us or those we care about (those close to us or all of humanity).

Ben: I learned a hard lesson when I was a kid: being harmless attracts bullies. It took me from the first day in the first grade to the first week of the eleventh grade to learn that. Apparently, I had practiced ahimsa (harmlessness) in a previous life, and still had a lot to learn about living here in this twilight zone.

guitarist: Ben,I think I must have practiced ahimsa too. *LOL* In this culture, that doesn't cut it!

Ravenheart: I don't know. I try to keep things very simple in my practices and in my thoughts, rather than say right and wrong, I say choice to be loving or non-loving, harmful or harmless... judgmental or discerning, if someone comes up to your front door and asks to come in, but you FEEL they are of poor intent, do you let them in because you receive everyone in a state of love? or do you say No, you may not enter but I will help you as I can if you need, because that is the highest form of love, to love oneself as a holy and sacred act, and to offer love thru appropriate action of discernment.

MarriAna: Ravenheart, I'd probably close the door on them and go into a trance and transform that silly pattern which attracted them in the first place.

LEGS: Shakespeare once said: "smile and smile, yet enemies be" or something similar referring to those who would fool you were you not discerning enough.

guitarist: To continue looking at myself...and the Palestinians...they deserve better than they have, but they wouldn't have better among their brethren than those who live in Israel. A state of their own? Perhaps, but as they are, pointed at the heart of Israel, ready to kill her? I'm not ready for that. I'm also not ready to have a state next to that of my people whose leader wants nothing more than to drive the Jews into the sea.

FRAML: guitarist: I've held the view that the 'Palestinian homeland' exists and has a name: Jordan. The people have been kept refugees by the politicians in the countries which surround Israel so they have a source center for unrest and war.

croc: I feel that somehow the focus on the topic has expanded out into other areas..its hard to maintain a flow of thought towards it...will say my goodbyes to all..peace be. *S*

Ravenheart: I agree croc, *S* IMHO, all ways are ways to uphold the love and beauty of our lives... the Jews in Nazi Germany did not fight back because they were of a peaceful nature. and could not imagine what was happening to them... so beyond their comprehension, a peaceful people who prayed, and trusted in their God and were hurled onto trains to death camps.. had they stood up and fought for their lives and their freedome, WW2 would not have happened as it did...but it did happen! And we learn that it is possible, and that it can happen to any of us at any time, it is loving to pray, and it is loving to take a gun to a murderers head and pull the trigger if they are goign to kill you or your child, or your spouse, we all here are stating truths ... and we are all stating places in which we can grow, and that is my humble opinion.

MarriAna: Ravenheart hey yeah, let's sign up a soul-contract which puts you into a situation where your child is attacked by a murderer and you get to kill him and can feel good about killing, or would you rather go on believing things like that "just happen" and you are not at all responsible for being in such a situation, or do you really believe killing is okay as long as you have a nice reason to back it up with.

Yopo: MarriAna Contract? I signed a contract? Apparently I shoulda read the fine print. *S*

MarriAna: Yopo VBG indeed, the idea is to become conscious of the contracts you signed before the 3d amnesia struck you. To become aware of what you've gotten yourself into, lol.

Ravenheart : Marriana: I don't feel that I need to defend a therotical situation, but I know that this will not occur in this lifetime, and if it did, I would not hesitate to protect the life of the ones that I love, including myself... I know you are saying thought attracts such things. I do not debate that truth, and I am saying that harmful things happen to harmless people, and self protection is a sign of self love if it is truly needed.

MarriAna: Ravenheart I understand, self love which needs to prove itself by drastic means such as killing, hmmmmmm.

guitarist: Oy vey, what did I do?!?

Ravenheart: It is incredible to me to honestly say that there is much passion on this topic, and that I do not feel an accordance of love flowing through the words here tonite, but more a debate and challenge to prove ones rightness in the matter, here, even in this room, the tension of how to love one another no matter who and what we are, etc, is in harsh debate, and for this, shows me how far we have yet to go. *sigh*

guitarist: Yes, is hard to have a civil discussion on this topic. I'm trying, but I'm afraid I'm failing. ***tears falling***

FRAML: Good night Yankl. I hope you have a good session at Beth Sim'mons

Ravenheart: guitarist: we do the best we can do, dear one, this is a topic of discussion that began with Cain and Abel, there are as many views as there are people... but the wonderful opportunity of it all is to say, OK, I don't have to agree to be understood, or to understand, I can listen, and allow to offer the very best of my own learning, and continue to grow, how to unravel a world's lifetime in an hour's discussion, You have not failed, guitarist, you have opened the door to a long story that still asks for understanding and loving appreciation for its complexity... (((Huge Hugs))) All is Well. *KOTC*

Ravenheart: It would be interesting if ONE person spoke and we all listened, and then responded from that persons points of understanding, to 'view' their beliefs and knowings from their perspective... give the ear to another, that is honoring, and loving, and go to the next person, and so on and on, we become deaf so that we can listen to our words, and that we can do anytime. *VBG*

Ben: guitarist: Don't feel bad. We don't have to agree on everything. And it is worthwhile to practice disagreeing without being disagreeable. A fine art, that.

guitarist: Yes, Ben. (((Thank you)))!

Brasilianlaw: I'm listening too, and like to hear what you're saying. Good.

Jello: Ben: lol! I need a manual on that. Maybe part of the problem is we really want others to hear what we're saying, so much so we stop listening?

Ben : Jello: Yeah, a lot of the problem is in wanting to convince others (somehow get them change their minds so they agree with you). That particular desire is often self-defeating.

Jello: Ben: I know :( but it's such a powerful desire (often) to, say, warn others about a mistake you've made yourself ... Interesting how the Web is a good medium for these messages -- people tend to come to your material when they are searching around, and they can leave any time they want.

Jello: To take the time out to listen to someone and really try to understand what they're saying? And then make sure everyone has a chance to talk? That is cool. It works much better in small groups though, and on limited topics. I think there's a mathematical model here somewhere.

greyman: Jello, Yes! It is called protocol. The basis for all Internet traffic. *G*

Jello: greyman: lol! and protocols still can't handle D-O-S attacks :)

guitarist: Ben, Jello: There was a smaller group in here when the topic got started, but then it grew...and grew...what can you do? We can't limit the group and kick people out of here willy-nilly.

Jello: guitarist: Oh, I wasn't thinking specifically about SpiritChat itself, an open seminar calls for its own particular rhythm and format, and basically I think it can't help being affected by the people involved, actually it's a beautiful display of human interaction, with all the ups and downs and wonders and hurts. And I recall the old discussion of what to do in case of a disrupting influence -- that would seem to be exceptional and in need of great care.

Yopo: *s* It is a sensitive issue at present. I have a dear friend who is very depressed over her son's suicide a bit over a year ago. "I can't believe I agreed to this," she said to me. My response was, "You didn't. There is free will here. And sometimes bad things happen." I have come to consider the idea that we completely pre-arrange all things in each life before our arrival to be somehow distorted, and the cause of much unnecessary pain. Which, of course, is ONLY my own humble opinion...

LEGS: This is a great discussion... I perceive that the time is past for the seminar session, however, and must retire myself from it tonite... perhaps we can continue this next week... meanwhile looking up some examples to enforce our own "take" on what we feel we now believe...

Yopo: Good night to you, LEGS... And thanks. *S*

FRAML: Good night LEGS & Remember to count your blessings before you sleep.

yankl: Great discussion, but I'm starting to see double at this hour. See y'all next time!

MarriAna: I wouldn't even mind the hellish lessons so many people take on, if they only were fully aware of what they are doing, and could explain to me why the heck they do it, lol, but this way I can only try to understand alone, without the help of the one who's doing it, and honestly I'd much rather be somewhere where everyone including me is 100% aware of their whole Selves**

Ravenheart: MarriAna: sarcasm is not a state of loving-kindness towards your fellow sharers either, and I understand that you may not understand the intent in my words.

MarriAna: Got booted. It wasn't sarcasm on my part. It's just how I think and feel about this. In all honesty. And I know I have to respect their choices to experience things unaware of their whole Self, it's just that I don't enjoy it much.

MarriAna: ..but I don't blame them. Figure their Oversouls get a kick out of watching them stumble around blindfold bumping their heads, lol. - That's sarcasm *G*

guitarist: Yes, MarriAna, I agree with Ravenheart. Spiritual self-righteousness is no better than that of other kinds. You wish that others would be aware of their whole selves? Do you have any idea how much I would like to know what agreement I had in heaven, if indeed I did? The lives I may have lived before? It is not given for everyone to be as spiritually gifted as you seem to be. Please be patient with the rest of us while we catch up, however slowly! Thank you in advance.

Ravenheart: MarriAna, that last post is a judgment of those of us who differ if only slightly from your frame of thought... so you just did what you have told others not to do.

MarriAna: Ravenheart what am I supposed to do, pretend they are all enlightened or something ? I can only accept it, but I don't have to like it.

Jello: I don't think anyone is 100% self-aware in this physical world , so I guess we all gotta be patient :-/ :)

Ravenheart: I cannot tell you what to do, MarriAna, and if I tried, you would not do it anyhow, *L* you have your own way and own mind, *S* however, you don't have to pretend that anyone is enlghtened and you also don't have to talk to everyone like they are wrong when they are voicing their own views, thoughts, feelings, perceptions, and wisdom, everyone who spoke in here tonite spoke with wisdom and with truth, it is all intermingled, showing us that there is no one right way, or one right path, but there are many truths as there are many lies.

MarriAna: Ravenheart just what I believe, many paths, all valid.***

Jello: I hope all paths are valid, but it really depends on whether souls can and do perish or not, now there's a topic I've seen lots of debate on.

MarriAna : souls? they cannot perish they get re-integrated into their Oversoul.

Ravenheart: Oh Jello, I truly do not wish to try out that topic tonite. I am tired just from this one alone.*S*

Jello: Ravenheart: Ah! I hear you. Yes, sometimes the mist clears and we see and it's pretty amazing :) Oh -- and don't worry, I don't want to get into the soul discussion either. I just wanted to point out that our actions depend on our belief on that topic.

Ravenheart: Jello, one time, years ago when I was feeling is such a wonderful and peaceful state of being... so many things coming together within and for me... when I thought to myself, "What more do I have to learn? I've got it all!" I was 26 and it took only a couple of months and I was flat on my face learning lessons that kicked my tush! *LOL* I will never be so arrogant to even think those words again. It has taken me 12 years to rise out of that arrogant position in terms of times being tough. *LOLOL* Yes, to see that we are not as far as we thought we are, to see that we are farther than we thought we are, and then to see is simultaneously is quite stunning!

guitarist: No, MarriAna: rather than pretend others are all enlightened, you should HELP. Imagine that you are driving down a one-way street and somebody is driving toward you in the opposite direction. You discover that you're the one headed in the wrong direction. What would you rather the other guy do (1) yell at you, "You're going the wrong way, idiot!" or (2) offer to help you back out gracefully?

MarriAna: guitarist lol, what do you think I'm doing whenever there's the opportunity ? Of course I help where I can.

FRAML: I must answer the bells of St. Sealy's. GUITARIST--Thank you for the topic and leading the discussion.

sauergeek: St. sealy has a guitarist?

Ben: guitarist: This topic stimulated a lot of discussion. Thank you. And we surely could work on it again. ALL: Time for me to rest. Peace and blessings to each of you. *poof*

Ravenheart: guitarist: You brought to us a very difficult subject to discuss and you have stayed the course well.. as LEGS said, this may be a good topic to continue next week and see if we can work towards so more loving insights... would be interesting to see if the awareness broadens and that people can come to a peaceful way of discussing peace. *LOL*

greyman: FRAML, good night. And it is time for me as well. Good night dear ones.~~

Jello: Good night, Ben, greyman, FRAML (boo hiss to the net lag or server slowness or whatever ;)

Yopo: Got bumped and couldn't get back 'til now. Must call it an evening anyhow. Good night Ben, FRAML, ALL. Blessings!

[I have assembled the following side conversation. It seemsd to me that the seminar shouldn't end on such a negative note. So I tried to address the person who seemed to be the most responsible for this note; I'd gotten at least 4 complaints about her via private message. -guitarist]


guitarist: It is obvious to me, MarriAna, that you do feel yourself to be more evolved spiritually than others with whom you share this room.

MarriAna: guitarist really, do I give that impression, well hell, I don't think we all have the same path, and not many are on a path which is similar to mine, but far be it from me from blaming others for following their specific paths.

Ravenheart: MarriAna: I have appreciated your shares in the past, and tonite you have had wisdom to share and I respect that very much, and I will say that yes, you come across very much the way guitarist described, and honestly, though your words speak of peace, your tone and your energy has been the harshest and abrasive of all in this discussion tonite. Ihave not felt love or peace from you in any of your posts. I simply wish to reflect that to you.

MarriAna: that's okay Ravenheart, I don't aim at being a constant fountain of love.

Jello: I've basically come to the conclusion that it's not a linear sliding scale, one person often is more advanced in one area, another in another, and there's all the skeletons in the closets that most of us forget about until they fall out :)

MarriAna: Jello, thanks, that's what I've been trying to say. Everyone likes to interact with people who resonate and have a high potential of facilitating one's growth/learning process, I should hope.

Jello: MarriAnna: Yes, there are people with whom we resonate better. However, eventually we move on, and sometimes we discover where we thought we were wasn't quite where it really was, and often the growth seems to come from dealing with people outside our sphere of comfort. So, it's a mixed bag, don't you think?

Ravenheart: Yes, Jello, I quite agree. If we all have reached a state of spiritual and human perfection, then we would not be here today dancing this dance. I rather enjoy the process of evolution and seeing where I was and where I am, tho it is not always easy, it is rewarding.

MarriAna: Jello humm, well actually I don't prefer people who let me stay in my comfort zone, I appreciate people who can trigger me into insights and learning processes.

Jello: MarriAna: Great! I'm just saying they aren't always who we think they are, that's all.

Jello: Ravenheart: Yes, it's interesting! And also seeing with a big burst of surprise that sometimes we weren't at all where we thought we were -- maybe we were higher than we thought, maybe lower. The only thing to do is to keep trying, I guess.

guitarist: I don't want to try to convince you otherwise. Who knows, but you may really be. However, the way in which you express this may be keeping others from the awareness you wish they had. Have you ever thought about that?

MarriAna: guitarist what are you trying to do, make me lose my humour? lol. That's one thing I won't give up.

MarriAna: Ravenheart lol, I think you got me all wrong, I don't claim to be enlightened or anything, I work on becoming aware of my whole self and fulfilling my true purpose, and I can't help myself, I'm a compassionate soul and wish for everyone to achieve full awareness too, one of the main reasons I try to help where I can, the other one is it's really fun and I enjoy bringing joy to thers, and recieving it, and being helped.

MarriAna: ..I thought about being fully aware in a world where almost no one is, and I didn't really fancy it, I'd rather have the others feel the oneness too, it gets so onesided otherwise**

Ravenheart: Marriana: That is a wonderful way to choose to live your life. It is a path of high regard for yourself and others. Perhaps, what I am suggesting is to look at your presentation, that what you intend may not be coming across due to this aspect. *S* Your words held lots of wisdom tonite, and some of us could not receive your words or wisdom due to the way it was presented. *S*

MarriAna: Ravenheart I see, well I'm sure they will eventually work on that and will soon be able to receive whatever wisdom I have to share, in whatever form I choose to share it in, cause it's >my< form, and I know I don't stand for the love-light-I'm holy stuff which goes down so well with so many. Ain't my task.

Ravenheart : Well, I am off to read a light read: the book I brought up earlier...The Secret War Against the Jews. *S* And pray tonite that everything works out in a good and wondrous way with this house that I am seriously considering purchasing. It is miraculous how it is all coming together and I am so blessed and grateful. *VBrightS*

guitarist : There was a great opportunity tonight, MarriAna; and, from my perspective, you blew it. Many people thought the same thoughts Ravenheart expressed.

Jello: Hey everyone, please don't forget text chat is a low-bandwidth medium. It's easy to misunderstand and to create bad impressions. And on top of that, everyone gets on others' nerves sometimes ;)

MarriAna : guitarist thanks for your judgment, lol, stuffs it into the dustbin, you'll have to leave it up to me to help where I sense I can and should.

Jello: It's easy to misunderstand and to be misunderstood; it's fair to say not one of us can escape from examining both our "hearing" and our "speech", looks for a Q-tip.

guitarist: "you'll have to leave it up to me to help where I sense I can and should." Yes, you're right on that one, MarriAna. Blessings on you as you proceed in that endeavor. *s*

guitarist: I want to make something clear about the seminar tonight: I shared about myself, not to get everybody fired up about Israel, but because that's my issue as a Jewish person. Others may have issues also, that have nothing to do with mine; but, in my humble opinion, we all need to learn to come out from behind the wrappings and show ourselves to be the beautiful spirits we are. And if we're not, then we need to seek help to be (and on the other side of this, those who are "there" need to help others get "there."). That's really hard to accomplish when all you have to do is look at somebody's skin to hate them; or, conversely, when all you have to do is show your skin and have somebody hate you.

MarriAna: guitarist wouldn't think you'll find anybody in this chat who won't agree with you on that...**

Ravenheart: It is time to say goodnight...It really has been a stimulating topic of conversation...with everyOne...Jello, your words continously were really well spoken and with great compassion, ((((hugs)))). MarriAna, your words held truth and high resonation with my knowing, thank you (((((hugs)))), guitarist, you held together a challenging topic and have really hung in there even when you felt deflated, good job I say, ((((hugs)))) and in private, you and I can discuss this book as I progress, you have strong feelings in this area and it may serve you to have someone else who is reading the same book to discuss it with. *S* Take care every One and breathe, live in peace and love. ((((((((((HUGS))))))))))) *S*

Jello: Good night, Ravenheart :) Thanks for the kind words!

Ravenheart: It is really sad, guitarist, that there is so much hate in such a lovely place as Gaia. it is an atrocity. And it hurts those of us who really are about living LOVE... We do our best, each one of us, and live a simple life of LOVE and growth and willingness to become more expanded... we will get there, I trust that we will. *S*

Ravenheart: yo, Jello. *S*

Jello: guitarist: Yeah, I think we all agree with you ... though the wrappings sometimes are necessary until the inner spirit gains the strength to break free (of the ego shell, a la Ben's angel vision :)

Ravenheart : So, before I leave, how does one recieve a copy of tonite's transcripts OR does that go on a webpage to review?

guitarist: Transcripts can be had by 1) going to Review in a few hours or 2) waiting for editing and posting on greyman's site:

MarriAna: bye Ravenheart.

Ravenheart: see you later MarriAna! *HUGS*

Jello: Thanks Guitarist -- sorry I missed so much of what sounded like an invigorating discussion :)

MarriAna: well I'm off for now, waves, **poof**

guitarist: Good night, MarriAna. Blessings.

Jello: Good night, MarriAna, take care :)

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