SpiritWebChat, Amazon Room
Sat, 1-Dec-2001
Topic: Moral Relativism
greyman hosting

greyman< SEMINAR GROUND RULES -- Courtesy is expected. Instead of attacking what others believe, say what you believe -- or politely ask others to explain what they post. Please keep your posts reasonably brief, and please don't get into off-topic side conversations. Please use the private message function to send greetings to new arrivals and to "whisper" in class once it starts. That way the text is easier for everyone to follow, and it is easier for me to clean up the transcript afterward.

greyman< The class will start soon. Tonite I have prepared three questions centering around "Moral Relativism". The seminar will last 1 hour, and after that it is open for open topic.

guitarist< (((Shalom everybody)))

LEGS< Greetings to all

FRAML< Hello All.

selki< I am thinking moral relativism is relative to the situation, if that makes any sense. Sometimes we react with our conscience, we do what we feel is morally correct and (acceptable to society) in certain given situations.

guitarist< selki, are you referring to "situation ethics"?

selki< guitarist, situation ethics yes, but to apply moral relativism in everyday life sometimes requires a speedy decision, reaction, it's not like we always have time to discuss what is morally correct or immoral. I think that we react most often to what we feel is correct and what we can conscientiously live with.

Yopo< Greetings, ALL *S*

Ben< Greetings and salutations.

LEGS< {{{{{{{Ben}}}}}}}}

selki< (((FRAML))) (((BEN)))

afriend< Namaste

greyman< Namaste, dear ones, question 1 follows:

greyman< In a rural village 50 miles east of Calcutta, a mother kills her newborn baby girl without threat of scorn, punishment, or criticism of her morality from her community. Indeed, the practice of infanticide is common place in poverty stricken regions of India, China, and other nations. Many outside observers of this culture would label this act murder and condemn the woman as an immoral person deserving penalization. The theory of moral relativism, however, holds that the mother has committed no violation because she was acting in accord with the societal standards of her culture. What are your thoughts?

LEGS< rel·a·tiv·ism (rel'-a-ti-viz'-m) n. Philosophy. A theory, especially in ethics or aesthetics, that conceptions of truth and moral values are not absolute but are relative to the persons or groups holding them.

greyman< LEGS, good, score one for Greek sophist Protagoras.

LadyV< LEGS thank you!!

guitarist< There is still the spirit within the child's body that is either considered or not considered within each culture -- whether the people involved believe it or not, like it or not, or know it or not. Morality on this question should be based on this fact alone.

cassandra< Very different from the mother's. *G* Although I wouldn't like to see my child starve to death but I might try not to have any children to kill.

FRAML< It is not for us to find anything wrong with the actions of other cultures because they are superior to ours because they are different.

greyman< FRAML, Difference makes them superior?

guitarist< greyman, I think FRAML is being facetious. ;)

FRAML< guitarist: yep.

LEGS< greyman, he said we are not to see ourselves superior merely because there are differences ...

FRAML< greyman: Not at all, but there are those who want to argue that as their justification of avoiding having to make a moral decision as to whether something is right or wrong, no matter what the culture is, but according to a superior Law.

Ben< I think some cultures are better than others, in terms of what they do to people who are born into them.

Yopo< I've been sitting here thinking about the example, but I'm not coming to any intellectual conclusion. Just feeling sad about the world, and the woman in Calcutta ...

merry< greyman, to me it's not so much a question of acting in accord with the standards of one's culture, but acting in a spiritually appropriate manner, based on the individual's understanding of their God(s).

mrsdeviji< People have to be educated into what morality is.

LEGS< from our difference, we see things differently ... a different perception (pr-sep'shn) n. The process, act, or faculty of perceiving. The effect or product of perceiving. Psychology. Recognition and interpretation of sensory stimuli based chiefly on memory. The neurological processes by which such recognition and interpretation are effected. Insight, intuition, or knowledge gained by perceiving. The capacity for such insight.

selki< Well, she did what she felt was morally correct. To save the child from a life of poverty. Infantcide is to me a radical form of birth control, using some form of birth control would be more acceptable.

afriend< Greetings. Many of you know me as "Lo," but I was forced to change recently to a new name. From the child's spirit perspective, I suspect that it was not happy about this and felt thwarted.

cassandra< I can't even kill a puppy dog, which WOULD be acceptable in our society by lots of people so it must be some thing with my own standards and not society's standards. *G*

LEGS< each of us perceive according to our own culture ... however, there are moral rights and wrongs as stated in most religions that are against killing except in defense ... hmmmmm Cassandra, so she could be defending the rest of her family from starving by killing the new infant

LadyV< Yopo, How long does it take then for reason to come forward ... when the mind reacts ... the heart reacts first ... that is what I am thinking here ... I agree with you.

Yopo< I guess maybe my problem is not understanding the context of the event. Which perhaps suggests relativistic tendencies? I know that the underlying truth is that it is wrong to kill. I'd certainly be much quicker to judge the act as wrong, were it to happen in my own community.

FRAML< greyman: I do not find her action morally acceptable. I wonder what were all the reasons behind her decision were, however I don't think that I can accept them as being "morally correct." I don't even see how she could justify it under Hinduism.

mrsdeviji< i don't know if i am allowed to say anything, but i am wondering ... if it is too late to educate an adult who has low moral standards to have a higher moral standard?

greyman< selki, why a girl? Do you suppose she would kill a new born son?

Ben< Moral relativists tell me I am wrong if I say anything is wrong. They don't see that they, themselves, are doing what they say is wrong.

merry< Ben ... *S* Excellent point!

greyman< Ben, good Dr. Fred Feldman makes that very point.

merry< Yopo ... but is it ALWAYS wrong to kill? Was it wrong to execute Timothy McVeigh? If a police officer kills someone in the act of committing murder, to save the victim, is that wrong?

selki< cassandra ... me too, I couldn't do it, again instead of killing a puppy, would be prevented by neutering the parent. Same with these people who commit infantcide, instead of society educating them, they are allowed to commit murder on their own child and it is condoned. I have a problem with using this as a form of birth control and to me that is what it is. Ignorance breeds ignorance.

mrsdeviji< i cried when they executed timothy mcveigh

Ben< In greyman's example, note that the victim is a baby girl. In the cultures he mentioned, infantcide isn't to prevent the child from experiencing poverty. It is gender preferance. A son will grow up and marry and take care of his parents in their old age. A daughter will grow up and marry and take care of her husband's parents in their old age. So, parents want sons and not daughters.

SLIDER< Greyman -- Sorry I am late -- But as to your opening statement: Govenment can teach a perfectly sane recruit to jump from a perfectly good airplane or down a rope from a chopper into a blaze of bullets and to then do perfecly insane things to other people with out a moral thought to it -- so why not a woman kill her female child if she is taught that it is the right thing to do.

guitarist< merry, good questions. Killing in self defense is not murder. (Let's clear something up right now ... the commandment, in the original Hebrew, is "thou shall not *murder*" -- the word is not *kill* -- motivation does matter.)

merry< selki, what about killing a puppy who is badly injured and in great pain? Or one who is in the final stages of distemper?

afriend< mrsdevij says: People have to be educated into what morality is, but don't we have an inner notion of what is good and what isn't?

selki< greyman, in that type of society a boy child might be spared because they are more value than a girl child, able to work for the family, however I think that if the mother sees the child as a burden, another mouth to feed, clothe, etc, a boy child would be killed too.

FRAML< Ben: Good point. The Chinese are doing the same thing under the government restrictions of one child per family. Families are trying to find out if it is a son or daughter and then abort the daughter because she is seen as "less valuable."

greyman< Ok, now we could continue along these lines, the point I want to amplify is that the Mother found her actions to be acceptable. The community likewise.

Yopo< merry, I would probaby say: "Yes, it is always wrong." But only because strong commitment to an underlying code of behavior is necessary. When you get into the events of the real world, that code serves to guide you. But there things are not so black and white. Exceptions are made of necessity. But the underlying code -- an ideal -- remains the measure and the guide.

LadyV< Ben, in the example this might well be true ... it is not practiced by all in India.

merry< afriend, I've never seen any evidence for a moral "instinct." Morality is apparently always learned.

selki< merry, isn't that a little different here than what we are talking about? Euthanasia to end a "puppy's suffering" is a difficult decision to make, but isn't it better than seeing it suffer? I'm saying that the situation of the mother killing the infant could be prevented in the first place if they practiced birth control instead of infantcide to control the birth rate.

greyman< Ben, Exactly! SLIDER, Good point!

LEGS< Ben, I remember once in the past when an American bride of one of the sultans was "set aside" -- divorced -- because she did not produce sons ... was that in Arabia?

guitarist< merry ... killing in defense of another isn't murder, either. As for execution for murder, it is to stop the murderer from doing it again, not to kill him or her for its own sake. So, again, it is not murder. The problem is when the person is convicted wrongly.

FRAML< LEGS: Henry VIII had a problem with wives who failed to produce a son. Something about heads rolling because of it.

greyman< If you believe in a higher level of morality you may fall into the catagory of: Moral Absolutism.

afriend< greyman, I suspect I could be guilty of that one!

Ben< Infantcide, especially of girls, was widely practiced in the Greek and Roman world. They often left infants where wild animals would find and kill and eat them. By any stretch of the imagination, it wasn't a kindness. It was a convenience.

yankl< The community said it was alright to do what she did, so her sensibilities followed the community. This is the danger of groups that create their own norms and alter normal sensibilties, such as the Nazis, etc.

mrsdeviji< most of the afgans fighters can't read or write ... lack of education ... could be the causee of warrior attitude

merry< selki ... but the mother in the example wants a child ... she just doesn't want a girl child.

guitarist< selki -- no culture in this world sacrifices baby boys. We have heard that some of the indigenous cultures of Central and South America sacrificed young men centuries ago, but they were at least teenaged or close to manhood at the time, I believe.

StarEyes< 10 confirmed dead -- 125 badly wounded as suicide bombers blow themselves up and kill and harm Jewish youth. Is this not murder?

greyman< Good, Good replys. It is time for question 2.

greyman< Question 2: Numerous and influential educators deny the existence of objective truth concerning good and evil. In other words, they deny the existence of rational standards by which to determine whether the beliefs and goals of one individual, group, or nation are more valid or intrinsically superior to those of another. Reinforcing this relativism is the behavioral doctrine that humanity in general, and their rulers in particular, employ altruistic language like "peace" or "justice" or the "common good" to conceal egotistical motives or dignify self serving ends. Can you provide any examples that prove or disprove this?

SLIDER< merry, I have to agree with you on morality-- one can only feel morality with a change of teaching from the morals that are accepted through enviroment.

LEGS< But, Yankl, people follow their teachings ... and in the case of the Nazi regime, many knuckled under because of personal fear of being eliminated ... such a horror to be loose upon the earth ... that regime.

StarEyes< sorry - for intruding - Namaste

guitarist< StarEyes -- thank you! No apology needed; you were on topic. (btw, I'm wearing the Jerusalem Post tonight, in case you want to keep up with that story.)

mrsdeviji< grayman, would moral absolusism be greeeaaat?

greyman< StarEyes, yes, sadly yes. // afriend, yes I do believe in an ultimate truth or morality, but for this time, let us explore the possibilities!

LadyV< I think yankl used the word Nazi ... to me that is an example of Question 2. The term "common good" comes to mind.

FRAML< greyman: Back in college in the late 1960's situational ethics was being introduced into the philosophy department. I remember discussing it with other students. I had an inate orientation that it was wrong. Yes, I could justify my actions because of a specific situation, but it was not morally correct to justify any action because of any reason, which was where I saw it heading, and so it has.

LEGS< a lot of our actions, no matter how intelligent we are as an individual, devolve into herd instinct when it comes to preservation ... the morals of the strongest leader are what hold sway ... how I applaud the soldiers who were brave enough to shave or trim their beards when "liberated" by the Northern Alliance ... not an easily grown back sign of allegiance to the Taliban.

yankl< Yes, Legs, people follow their teachings, but if enough people around you behave according to the altered norms, that will tend to become your norm. This is how cults work.

LadyV< In the end there is reason then ... the key word is "not all" do this or that ... it is the majority that rules ... that is scary ... it is also reality.

afriend< I have long suspected that the basis for such views from the intelligencia has its roots in the rejection of values that were attempted, but failed, by some authoritative figure in their lives.

SLIDER< Greyman -- All I can say to question #2 is -- when in Rome do as the Romans do -- for you put yourself at the mercy of the moral judgments of those you allow to rule you, and those you associate with.

FRAML< I think the humanism that has developed over the last 500 years is the base source you are seeking. With the existential philosophy of Jean Paul Satre being the end result of that philosophical strain and it is currently commonly called moral relativisim. There is a good book by Marc Bloc about the decline of the west that was published 2 years ago that traces this.

LEGS< FRAML, the giving in to agreement with everyone's right to do as they think they should is a great evil being perpetrated upon those of us who have always held what we were taught as Biblical morals of right and wrong based on the ten commandments ... now if we speak up that something is morally wrong, we are told we are not accepting the "oneness" of the universe and are woefully out of step with the movement of One World Peace ... so be it for me and my household ... we will stick by the Bible

greyman< FRAML, yes I was sensitive to that kind of "brain washing" but as luck would have it, I stayed in the Physics/Computer Science side of the Campus. *G* Very good point LEGS!

selki< guitarist, Yes, I know that, because these cultures put a value on the male child, but hypothetically, if the mother in your example could not support the child who's to say that she would not kill a male also whether it is condoned or not. With all due respect, I feel that this is allowed by these cultures (look at China) as a form of birth control.

LadyV< Who said "there are no absolutes"? I am thinking Einstein or one of the Greeks ... but in this I agree ... "there are no absolutes".

LEGS< that is a good point, afriend ... on the rejection of values ... and another may be the easy post war life that led those who had faced death to seek fun now ... and to tell their kids ... not as I do but as I say ... are the rules for you ... naturally, many kids, who are now the baby boomers ... rebelled ... and went for the open and rebellious Flower Children "truths"

Yopo< I'm not sure how one could prove or disprove the intrinsic moral superiority of any particular nation, religion, or culture. How and what would you measure? Count the acts of selfless kindness in a year? Go by the body-count racked up in a year of wars participated in? (Here, you'd maybe gain points if you killed bad people, and lose points for the innocents you've blown up.) You certainly can't go by the speeches and sermons that cast one in a negative light and another in a positive light. Yet, we KNOW Hitler was an instrument of evil, as was Pol Pot. Gandhi was a good man. I can't answer the question, nor suggest proofs influential educators would accept---but I trust my instincts.

FRAML< greyman: there were some of the priests who rejected it as invalid and opposite to the teachings of Jesus. I went to a Catholic men's college. Unfortunately a number of my classmates thought it made sense and saw no problem with it.

merry< LadyV, I agree that there are no absolutes.

Ben< The objective truth of good and evil rests on the premise that life is valuable, to the individual and to the family or tribe. A tribe that nurtures and protects every child will grow in numbers more rapidly and become stronger than a tribe that practices infantcide. Likewise, a tribe that practices vendetta is apt to become extinct, as almost happened among the Mafia in Sicily.

selki< Ben, right, nearly all the men in Sicily were killed due to vendettas, leaving only the women and children.

LEGS< selki and guitarist, is the subtopic feminism ... and gender rights?

greyman< Yopo, Bingo!

guitarist< I just learned that Edward Said, that known liar and fraud and professor at Columbia University, was the one who said that Westerners could not study Eastern cultures without prejudice or bigotry -- the latest wave of academic relativism. I am still in school, and am seeing it first hand.

tjones< we form different insights from passages of the bible ... maybe if we are getting the essence ... it may be different ... !

selki< LEGS, not that I'm aware of, I was just responding to a statement directed to me is that okay?

mrsdeviji< tjones, most of the religions for thousand of years have been revealing moral values ... those religious tools aren't working anymore.

greyman< Yopo, as an engineer, I too search for the metrics. How do you measure morality unless you can "see" a higher one? This could point us into the area of: Moral Absolutism.

LadyV< LEGS, I am feeling that also ... as a subtopic if I may add my view here ... it is feminism ... and gender rights ... the woman did as the tribe required or it was implied that she did so.

LEGS< (((selki))) ((((guitarist))))) thought I had missed something when I got bumped awhile ago

Yopo< FRAML, I got a dose of situation ethics during religion class at an Episcopal high school. I still consider it a valid part of the process of making moral decisions, but look back to the "absolutes" as my starting point. Absolutes are the ideals. Situation ethics is the process of the grey areas -- such as the world we find ourselves in. IMHO.

guitarist< LEGS -- sexism seems to be greyman's subtopic, as he brought up the murder of a baby girl that wouldn't have happened if it had been a boy.

SLIDER< Osama bin Ladin teaches it is the moral duty of his followers the Wahabbi to kill westerners, and if you die in the process you are a martyr. Mr Bush teaches it is the moral duty of our military to kill the Wahabbi with Bin Laden and the Al Quada, and if you die for your country you are a hero, so go figure.

Ravenheart< Yopo ... You always share so intelligently and with great insight and appreciate your shares ... One question: Was Hitler truly evil?

afriend< mrsdeviji: But have any of those religious tools worked any more or less poorly since they were introduced?

mrsdeviji< greyman, people have to be taught to want to *see* a higher one.

greyman< Good replys. Now let us go on to the last question for tonight.

greyman< Question 3: Mao Tse-tung adopted a drug strategy for political purposes back in 1928. The Soviets jumped on the bandwagon in the fifties. At the end of 1955, the Soviet Defense Council approved the guidelines for the drug war against the United States, and in 1962 Khrushchev made it official government policy for all Eastern European countries as well. He made schools and universities priority targets so as to corrupt the future leaders of the enemy country, and stressed the need to undermine the American work ethic, pride, and loyalty with drugs. "Anything that speeds the destruction of capitalism is moral," he declared, explaining that tanks were only needed after deception and disinformation campaigns had succeeded and the destruction of the moral fiber of capitalist society had advanced satisfactorily. What are your thoughts?

tjones< I also work with the Jesuits Scientists for 30 years ... even they are too hard on their views ... only one i know who became a Zen Master ... he is regarded as crazy ... he left the priesthood because of that ... !

guitarist< Maybe there is a place for situation ethics after all, Yopo. It's just not at the top of the chain. Is this something like what you're saying?

Ravenheart< SLIDER: So, the Grande Illusion continues ... and the question is, how many people are sleepwalking through it ... (?)

mrsdeviji< osama, the fananic that he is, in my opinion, really wants to only see that absolute morality.

LadyV< good point, mrsdeviji, in my opinion.

Ben< Moral absolutism is a house of cards -- one exception knocks it all down. Moral relativism is a fact, because morals vary among individuals and cultures. But what is usually called moral relativism is actually moral equivalancy (all are the same, none are better or worse). Relativism means relative, so I asked myself, relative to what? Relative to the life and health and well-being of the individual and the tribe and the human race. "By their results" is my standard for evaluating morals and cultures.

Yopo< Maybe the Al Quada guys get a better deal. They go straight to Paradise. Our folks go to Arlington. *sigh*

mrsdeviji< bush was not looking for that, i am sure bush would have been happy doing relatively nothing.

FRAML< greyman: I think that they have been very successful in their efforts, as evidenced by what I see in this country.

selki< guitarist, I don't think that's true, whether it's a boy or a girl baby that is killed. The same thing happens here in this culture but it's not approved, what about all the babies that are found in dumpsters, toilets, etc, isn't that basically the same thing? Our culture does not approve of it, if the child is not found in time and the baby dies, that's murder and a jail sentence if convicted.

Yopo< Ravenheart, I would call him that. But concede that he may have been a sad and tormented man beneath it all. Still, so far as everyone else is concerned, it is what one DOES that matters. Not why.

LadyV< Ben's comments make sense ... "By their results" and his standards. Since his standards are superior and I agree with him on many moral concerns ... I would tend to follow his leadership in example.

mrsdeviji< not in order to create something better in the world, but bushes nothing was only superfical nothing.

SLIDER< greyman -- The moral values are of many grey tones in any society, and Khruschev had different values than the USA and found a way of means to justify his percieved result.

guitarist< #3: How do you know this, greyman? I never heard this strategy discussed. Obviously, that one hasn't worked in 73 years, so they should just drop it. The wakeup call we just received on 9/11, and our response, proves it.

cassandra< I think George Bush is a great President and receives very little understanding from Congress and no respect or sense from the media. Since someone brought his name up.

greyman< Yopo, unfortunately truth or falsehood depends on the outcome after death. The only problem is: if false, what do you do?

mrsdeviji< a realized being could be one who has realized absolute morality.

FRAML< SLIDER: And what Kruschev wanted was the distruction of Western society, and to have it controled by himself and the Communist Party. Thus imposting their 'morals.'

Yopo< greyman, Hmm ... I wasn't aware that was Soviet or Chinese policy. Always figured we somehow did it to ourselves.

FRAML< guitarist: It comes from some of the documents released in the last few years since the collapse of the Soviet Union, and it is also in the writings of Lenin.

LadyV< I am not sure here ... but the desire to smoke and chew and inject has been around since the start of civilized society. What has changed? A man in Russia says ... what have they or anyone to do with our moral decisions? If we fall it is within ... no need to blame another country for our own inability to handle our social structure.

greyman< guitarist, By first and second hand accounts. I have visited many universities.

guitarist< I would have agreed with you, FRAML, that the strategy worked, before I saw the response to being attacked.

FRAML< mrsdeviji: Thank you. But what is the definition of morality that one is trying to 'realize'?

merry< Yopo ... we DID do it to ourselves. No one was forced to do drugs. The Soviets or Chinese may have made drugs available, but they hardly forced them on anyone.

LadyV< I am more afraid of cults myself than my fellow world citizens ...

LEGS< Yes Ben ... by their results is the way I figure too, but we could still be told that it is results judged by our perspective ... which for me means seeking answers thru prayer to form my perspective.

afriend< Yopo, yet I was trained that if my motivation was meant to be beneficial, that could affect whether an act was good or bad, as far as my eternal judgement was concerned.

Ravenheart< Yopo ... Thank you for answering ... Hitler certainly acted out of what we term as 'evil' ... there is no doubt in anyones mind here, I am sure ... Let us take a look at the idea that Hitler was the embodiment of our own darkness within ... all of the hate, and greed, and hunger for power, and bigotry, etc ... that the world was purging ... This man, still a child of Gods as we ALL are, was the fabric of all that we are made up of. He was the blanket that stood before us all to SHOW us ... what and where we were going. For all that Hitler did, how many others stood by and let it happen? Would that not also be considered 'evil'? When do we as a people begin to look higher and broader in our vision ... does not mean to grant permission ... but offers us all understanding and clarity ... so we can evolve much wiser ... it is because we, as a collective whole, remain in the singular picture of reality that we find ourselves in this war we are now confronting that can become worse than anything Hitler ever conceived of ... ((((????))))

yankl< I guess we never realized what Kruschev meant when he said "We will bury you!"

Yopo< greyman, I don't actually reference my behavior in life to some idea of afterlife. I figure the playing field is all on this side of the divide. I've always thought we are never judged by Creator. We will, however, judge ourselves in the mirror of Truth, held in Creator's hand.

SLIDER< cassandra -- I think our leaders are doing exactly what we must do to stop the moral values of others from becoming the moral values of ourselves. If this moral value we don't recognize should become the norm (which I can't see happening), it would be a changed world indeed.

merry< I have for some time been working to let go of right/wrong and good/evil judgements. I have instead substituted the concept of appropriate/inappropriate. It's made a huge difference in how I see many things.

greyman< LadyV, Yopo, When I was a student at the university of maryland (during the Vietnam war), movies were shown against the brick wall of the undergraduate library at the University of Maryland. Movies from North Vietnam showing how to make bombs and to cause mayhem. There was an active communist crusade for Lenin. Very intresting times. And I won't go into what I went through at Berkeley!

Ben< greyman: (sorry, I got bumped off-line) In answer to question 3: By my standard, the results and intended results of the Soviet Union were evil -- which I define as the Greeks did: causing pain, suffering, hardship. And conversely, I define as good those morals and cultures and actions that result in aleviation of pain, suffering, hardship. Those that do neither, I consider basically harmless and useless (value neutral).

afriend< My last post tends to verify LEGS viewpoint. I agree with her.

Yopo< afriend, I tend to think that way too. But it's good to remember that people who are affected by our actions are less concerned with our motives than with the results they produce.

Ravenheart< LadyV ... I agree wholeheartedly with your post ... concise and direct ... When we give up blame and take hold of our own responsibility for ourselves, our communities, our country ... then we will begin to master our true identity in wholeness. Osama Bin Laden could not stand alone ... Hitler could not stand alone ... No one stands alone ... There is support that allows and gives permission for the deeds to be done ... Look within ... and you will find a strong part of the doings at work ... Individuals take drugs!!!! Not countries ... and each drug addict is our mirror to our own separation and utter lonliness and disconnection from the Source ...

cassandra< Slider -- everyone is entitled to their own belief is the rule I live my life by. *G*

afriend< SLIDER, I agree.

Yopo< greyman, Ah, the 60s ... It sometimes amazes me that I feel a certain nostalgia for those days.

greyman< Yopo, in my case it was the 70's.

Ravenheart< Looking around ... "Am I here?"

cassandra< Ravenheart - *LOL* You must be. I can see you.

Ravenheart< ((((((((((Controversal Cassandra!!! How are you my friend and fellow debator??? *S*)))))))))))

LEGS< greyman, so is the word the same Absolutism that supposedly began with Louis XIV ... as absolute monarch rule???

LadyV< greyman, I am reminded by your words in your last message ... "If you don't stand for something, you fall for anything" considering the results of the Viet Nam War ... and I will call it War instead of Conflict ... and until this date ... of this now War ... some did not regard this situation or perhaps they considered it a warning to be wary in the future ... and aware ... perhaps. Still proproganda goes on in our parts as well. It has been so for many years ... although, many times we have been outsmarted ... in our efforts ... to our regrets. I recognize your point as valid.

SLIDER< YOPO, It is also how moral values have changed from the 60's to present even in this country.

merry< Ben, the problem is that it is sometimes through someone's struggle with pain, suffering, and hardship that they grow and come to greater spiritual awareness. Who are we to say that the the pain and suffering and hardship are not necessary, predetermined by God, or by the soul itself, to provide the necessary lessons for learning? Perhaps the whole purpose of existence for the girl child killed by the mother was to provide the mother the opportunity to make that decision, and grow accordingly. Perhaps the higher purpose of the Chinese and Soviet plan was to provide the drugs that some people needed to have to go through drug addiction and out the other side, to develop the strength of character they would need for great works later in life? Life includes pain and suffering and hardship ... is the weather "evil" when it creates a drought that creates the famine? Perhaps those who work "evil" are, in reality, serving a higher purpose.

guitarist< Ravenheart, your post-before-last brought up my question of how to deal with people who were born with the spark of G-d and end up evil like Hitler. As for your last post, I agree that there is usually support somewhere. If countries had taken in refugees from Hitler, it would have sent a message that his work was not approved by the world. As it was, he used their refusal to accept refugees as an excuse to continue.

Ravenheart< Frankly, I can see into George W and see that he is but a shadow ... and I truly do not like nor believe a word he says ... I will stand by my country, but my country is comprised of a few things ... 1. It is borne of the people who inhabit it ... not its 'leaders' and, 2. When I say I stand by MY country, I do not see borders, but the globe that is my home ... each of us brothers and sisters ... and if you say, Ravenheart is idealistic, I will say 'Yes, I AM ... someone must stand for the vision of the future ... others have jobs taking care of today ... ' *VBS*

afriend< Yopo, But to say "remember that people who are affected by our actions are less concerned with our motives than with the results they produce," is to give in to whatever that society may consider pertainent at the time! I sense that people want a more stable anchor to live by. I just do not believe that the end justifies the means.

LEGS< However, if Objectivism is another name for absolutivism ... and naive objectivism is one term used in definition, then is the naive objector the one who, when arguing, puts her foot in her mouth???  i.e. Moi??

greyman< LEGS, Absolute power corrupts absolutely! The phrase is in reference to the silly little hairless apes running around this pretty blue green planet!

greyman< A conclusion: Objection to moral relativism is called by Fred Feldman? ìThe Reformerís Dilemmaî which describes the situation of an activist who sees a society in need of improvement and feels compelled to propose some alteration for it's citizens. However, the theory of moral relativism prohibits such an action because it requires the acceptance of the society as it is. In short, ìanyone who advocates reform is mistakenî, which has obviously been proven false by Ghandi, Martin Luther King, Jr., and countless other admirable leaders. The objections that have been outlined are the primary criticisms of moral relativism.

greyman< ?Professor Ph.D., Brown University, 1968 Appointed at UMass: 1969

Kotoki< Hi all, just passing by to go to bed ... Wanted to add one post of my thoughts on what you're speaking. Most of the wars (such as WWII, Vietnam, etc) that were not solely about territory but were against races, etc ... were just another wave of the hatred/violence that in times of peace throughout our history has existed, but not been displayed. Times such as the Inquisition, brief wars in Europe, WWI & WWII, Vietnam, etc ... (and what is happening in Afghanistan) are not merely wars for land/etc ... they are wars of hatred of one human for another ... and even if the situation in Afghanistan is resolved they will continue, because this world will never be able to release all this anger and hatred and contempt and ill will toward each other ... each war is just a renewal of something that was exhausted to a simmer during previous generations. It's a cycle. (Gotta go, not sure if that made sense). Do zvidanya i mir ... *disappears* ("light"/peace and contentment versus "dark" hatred/fear/contempt/anger)

Kotoki< Or more appropriately I think "light/peace/contentment/*acceptance of fellow man* versus "dark" hatred/fear/contempt/anger toward fellow man.

FRAML< merry: your reasoning sounds like some westernized Hindu or Buddhist philosophy to me. I don't think that we have to go through certain things in life to learn lessons. I believe that we learn from what we go though, and whether we grow in our morality and spiritual/religious belief is how we react to the situations and the lessons we learn from them.

merry< FRAML, the reasoning derives from realizing that, particularly in Western culture, we see pain, hardship, and suffering as "bad." They aren't. They just are. I don't know whether we "have" to go through certain things to learn certain lessons, I merely observe that many have gained great growth and character and spiritual awareness from dealing with the pain, hardship, and suffering in their lives. Frankly, I don't see how one could learn much without challenges of one sort or another, and observing life tells me that not all our challenges are pleasant.

FRAML< merry: I disagree and will leave it at that.

SLIDER< Ravenheart -- Idealistic for sure and not a bad vision to promote -- But If I let the free will of others take away my free will -- then it cancels out my free won't. (G)

LEGS< ((((Slider))))) correct

Ben< merry: Who are we to say that someone's pain and suffering and hardship ARE necessary, predetermined by God or the soul? That is a moral judgment on our part, but one that blames God or the victim. I say we aren't that smart or wise or knowing. Morally, it's an excuse for non-action. But we can see the pain and suffering and hardship, and try to do something to help, without judging God or the victim, just because we would rather be one of those who help others than one of those who hurt others. And that is simply a personal preference that directs the type of person we are becomming.

Yopo< Hmm ... Got bumped, and couldn't find my way back to SpiritWeb for a while.

greyman< Thank you for your attendance and valued discussion. It is now open forum time.

LEGS< this has been a DEEP conversational subject tonite, greyman ... my compliments.

Yopo< Yes, greyman. A very good session!

Ravenheart< guitarist ... For several years I lived in thus a debate with myself saying that Hitler was evil, period ... there was no other perception I was willing to allow ... Did Hitler do acts of HARM? Absolutely! If that HARM is called EVIL, then Hitler was evil without doubt. However, just because Hitler DID evil, harm, injury, murder ... does that make Hitler NOT GOD? Who judges who is or is not GOD? Your right about the refugees as well ... however, there is a more sinister equation to the second WW. Hitler, like many others, were front men for others who wanted to see WWII come to fruition but did not want to dirty their own hands to do it ... however, their pockets grew deep, as will this war do again ...

Zendi< Ravenheart?~?~?~??~?~?~?~?

LadyV< Please allow me a quote here that means much to me "When I despair, I remember that all through history the way of truth and love have always won. There have been tyrants, and murderers, and for a time they can seem invincible, but in the end they always fall, Think of it -- always." -Gandhi

guitarist< (Rushing back in after getting the boot) I see that many have also been booted -- just proving the point that "they" hate us moral absolutists! They wish we would just go away! :)

merry< Ben, I agree with you, to a point, especially about helping people. But to catagorically class anything that causes pain, hardship, and suffering as evil or bad is to make the same kind of moral judgement. It also completely ignores the question of intent. Have you never done anything in your life that, despite your best intentions, caused harm or pain or hardship? Does that make what you did "evil?" does that make YOU "evil?" This is the problem with moral absolutes ... they defy any rational or usable definition.

Zendi< *LOL* I am in the process of writing you a letter *VBS*

Ben< greyman: Excellent seminar! Very well prepared and led. My compliments and appreciation.

FRAML< greyman: Well done sir. & I'm glad that you weren't talking about your alien relatives tonight as one person thought you were going to talk about.

Yopo< merry, I think they are the very definition of "badness". What other sort of definition could we find?

afriend< SLIDER, AMEN.

Yopo< LadyV *S*

yankl< guitarist, are you sure it wasn't just another pot hole in the Information Super highway?

SLIDER< Good topic, greyman ---

selki< What about ethical beliefs and the implications for how we live. Beliefs about beliefs (relativism, objectivism, subjectivism, etc.) have no necessary or inevitable consequences for what we believe to be right and good or for what we do in everyday life.

LEGS< Ravenheart, how sad for you to live with such distrust of people while avowing peace and love for even Hitler

guitarist< Merry, I don't think that a single human life is enough to learn all the lessons we need! We must learn from the mistakes, pain, suffering, etc., of others as well.

Yopo< There's a big difference between "bad" and "evil", isn't there?

greyman< A simple definition submitted for your approvial: In this case evil shall be defined as causing deliberate pain and suffering with malice. Good shall be defined as causing reverent joy and healing without malice.

Ravenheart< Got bumped and stumped in the hallways of SWC ... SLIDER ... Yes, one can hold the vision of the future for the future ... and also, one can remember the past and say, Lets not do this again ... Bush asked us immediately if we are willing to give up some of our freedom for more security ... that totally shocked me as the question came so quickly after Sept 11 ... I say NO!!! Why? Because MY/OUR freedom INSURES our security!!!! It is when we give up our own free will and power to the state, to the 'leaders' that security is lost just as freedom is ... Why does NOT others see this? *scratching my new grey hairs on my head*

selki< Can relativism sustain high moral standards, moral passion, courage, and commitment? I mean that the only way we can discover and test moral truth is by making use of the resources available to us in our time and place.

FRAML< selki: From what I have seen of it in life, my answer is "No".

LadyV< Thinking all brave enough to do this seminar need applause ... [smiling] greyman, good ground work. I learned something tonight ... which is why I am here anyway.

LEGS< ((((greyman)))) thank you

selki< I don't think anyone can be sure which beliefs qualify to reflect an objective moral order.

Yopo< greyman, Sounds very proper to me ... even if I was hearing the definition in the voice of Rod Serling for a moment ... *S*

Ben< merry: The Greek word for evil (poneros) simply means "causing pain, suffering, hardship." When they wanted to emphasize intentions, they spelled it out by adding other words. Today, we recognize the difference between intentional and unintentional, and consider intentional evil to be worse than unintentional. I think that is an important difference.

LEGS< Indeed, LadyV ... aren't we all ... and it is always a pleasure to see you in the rooms ... *S*

merry< Yopo ... why is it necessary to label things as good or bad? The economy in America is currently in recession, causing much hardship for many people ... does that make it "bad?" Certain diseases cause much suffering before the person finally passes ... does that make the disease "bad?" See also my qeustion to Ben about intent. What of someone who, with the best of intentions but an honest error in judgement, causes pain, hardship, or suffering? Is that person bad or evil? Or just human?

guitarist< (((greyman))) thank you -- !

selki< FRAML, I agree with you ...

SLIDER< Ben -- How can one really come to a morality in life if all morals in life are thought from personal revelations or what others deem as moral. What we learn is from experience of others writings and if they make sense to us we follow them, the same goes for oral teachings. And if I feel enlightened and come to moral conclusions, are they the right ones or just my own interpretation.

merry< greyman ... yes, indeed ... an excellent forum!! Thank you! *S*

greyman< I has hoping we could get into the metrics of this topic. I am an engineer by trade and by no means a Political Scientist. But it is facinating to me that this Moral Relativism can be tool that can manipulate any rational argument.

LadyV< I am going to salute our friend FRAML. I did read his article in the magazine he had mentioned and I am so proud of his work. Thank you FRAML.

selki< I believe it all leads to a pragmatism in which we seek those beliefs that are most convincing and that offer the best hope of attaining the best possible life for ourselves and others in a just society.

LadyV< thank you LEGS ...

yankl< greyman, great discussion tonight. Congrats! I must retire now, good night all!

greyman< Yopo: *G*

Ravenheart< LEGS: Did I avow Love and Peace for Hitler????? Me, a Jew? I dont think so ... that is NOT what I am saying ... what I am saying is why not take a different view of what Hitler brought to each of us ... How much we can learn about who we are ... the shadows that we are working through in our own inner worlds ... Hitler took these shadows and amplified them for the Gods in other Universes to see ... for us to SEE ... It is always in hindsight that it is easier to see the larger picture ... sitting in the middle of new wars and rages, it is not always easy to stay elevated ... I am merely human ... ALL I am saying is that Hitler did not act alone ... just as NOW, Osama Bin Laden does not act alone and it would be shallow of us to think that he did and he does ...

selki< good night, yankl

LEGS< Can we continue the discussion/Seminar next week then greyman ... to carry on into the metrics???

FRAML< merry: because as Ben & greyman have defined good and bad, there are things that meet the definitions. However I do know masochists who say that pain and torture are good because they enjoy it ... but I think that they are not "normal."

afriend< Ravenheart, methinks that as important as freedom is, it's how it's used that counts. To properly enjoy freedom, one MUST act responsibly so as not do harm to others.

LadyV< selki, you have been hiding your good mind under a barrel ... I have seen it tonight ... so you can't hide it anymore. [smiling]

merry< Ben, I agree. But intent leads us back to moral relativism. As you said (at least, I think it was you ... *S* ... moral absolutism is a house of cards.

greyman< Good night, yankl!

FRAML< LadyV: Bowing toward you and Thank you.

SLIDER< Ravenheart--- Yes the grey has really showed up in the last two months LOL We have to be vigilant for the enemy without and from within.

LadyV< yankl, you Sir, I would like to know better ... thank you for your sharing with us.

Ravenheart< AND in the end, is it not about how we love even those who encourage us to hate and grow dark in their long shadows???????????????????????????

LEGS< Ravenheart, if you have info the government needs to help combat the osama situation you should certainly contact them directly rather than making veiled slurs against any unknown "backers".

greyman< Pretzels and Beer provide on the buffet table in the back of the room.

FRAML< greyman: are the metrics of the situation different from using English measurements? I prefer the traditional inches, pints, & pounds.

greyman< FRAML, Furlongs per fortnight!

selki< *s* @ LadyV *yes'm I keep it well hidden most times.*

LadyV< selki [grinning]

guitarist< LEGS, Ravenheart: Evil triumphs when good men do nothing. -Winston Churchill. Applies now as then.

selki< Ravenheart, no, it's who dies with the most toys wins. LOL

FRAML< Yes, pints of Bass ale, Guiness, and Whitebread beer all around. & delicious Cape Cod chips.

LadyV< Hi Kathleen and all others ... we don't greet during the seminar ... as there is more of it to edit later ... welcome ...

kathleen< Yes I know LadyV ... that is why I was quiet during the end when I came in. Hello ... *S*

LEGS< Oh goodie ... pretzels

Yopo< merry, I agree with Ben that intention is a very important part of the equation. I'm pretty quick to judge a thing "good" or "bad". Sometimes I use the terms knowing the judgement is mine alone. Sometimes it is intended to mean that most other people would likely agree with me. I seldom judge something as "evil", or call a person or thing "evil". That's a whole 'nother frame of reference. But I truly believe "evil" exists as a conscious, willful, predisposition to cause pain and suffering for it's own sake, or as a conscious disregard for pain and suffering in the pursuit of selfish goals.

Ben< FRAML: Did you hear this one? The masochist said to the sadist, "Beat me! Beat me!" The sadist thought about it, smiled an evil smile, and said "No!"

selki< LOL Ben that's funny ...


LadyV< it is funny ... sneaky too ... [laughing]

Ravenheart< Well said Slider! *VBS* ... afriend, it is always about harmlessness in the end ... until the end, we confront our ideas of harmlessness via the picture of harmfulness that seems to stand in front of us all as in wars and other actions ... MERRY, I just want to say that I understand exactly what you are saying ... good and bad = judgement ... approrpiate and inappropriate reflects discernment and responsiblity ... I understand and agree ... Your approach is one of the feminine ... You are not a lone arguement in this room ... *S*

merry< Ravenheart ... thank you! It's good to know I'm not the only one who sees it that way! *S*

merry< A last general comment regarding moral absolutism: It seems to me, as we only glancingly touched on tonight, an absolute moral code would arise from God/Spirit or from having an effect on what happens to us after we die. If this were the case, I can't help thinking that the clues we would need to determine what is "right" and what is "wrong" would have been made available to us, and would reveal concepts of right and wrong that would have been appropriate for all of humankind through all the long ages. Since no one has ever found such indications, I have a hard time believing they exist.

afriend< Burp! Good night all.

guitarist< Merry, I think Ben was being facetious and sarcastic when he said that moral absolutism was a house of cards.

merry< guitarist ... *S* But his assesment was correct, even if meant that way. He was pointing out that one exception brings down the house of cards. I was merely attempting to point out that there are possiblities of exceptions far beyond our abilities to consider.

Ben< Yopo: I like your description of evil as "a conscious, willful, predisposition to cause pain and suffering for it's own sake, or as a conscious disregard for pain and suffering in the pursuit of selfish goals" It can be active or passive, attack or neglect.

Yopo< Ben, Is is possible you like it because I was paraphrasing something YOU once said? *hehe*

FRAML< Ravenheart: to me "judgment" is to render a decision about the fate of one's soul. To discern whether the actions of that person are good or bad, is just that, discernment. I am not determining the fate of his soul based upon his action.

Ravenheart< LEGS: What has got your dander up so with me tonite? It is known by multitudes that the governments have been involved in many under handed operations ... We talked about Russia tonite ... and China ... and Germany ... Can we not look at our own government and see that there are people in high places that do not have lofty goals for their citizens????? Are we to be sooooooo arrogant to even think that we are the only good in the world???? I do not veiled slurs ... I am most open to say that the rest of the worlds government have done terrible things, yes, and so have we ...

greyman< merry, regrettably these seminars last an hour or two and my fingers only go at 300 baud!

greyman< Good night afriend, you are welcome erp!

FRAML< The "don't judge others" has become a shibolith to keep people from discerning good from bad. To rationalize inaction by ones self, because interferring would be "judging them". I find that non-Christians use this the most, the only part of Christianity they seem to believe in, but they are judging others as they pronounce it.

guitarist< merry, what are the 10 commandments then, if not a clue?

Ravenheart< FRAML -- I do understand ... and that is EXACTLY a great point ... could you and merry in your own ways be saying the same things ... so many arguments come from our perceptions about even the meaning of one word ... hatred can born from such a small thing ... Let us listen to the higherness of what others are saying ... and maybe we all can hear a bit better, dont you think? IMHO

Ben< merry: Most of the problem with absolute moral codes attributed to God has been the humans who proclaimed them (often for their own purposes).

FRAML< guitarist: *S* & I used to wonder why the cheerleaders in grade school use to say "beat me daddy, eight to the bar." It didn't and still doesn't make sense ... hopefully they weren't all little masochists.

greyman< FRAML, think drums *G*.

FRAML< greyman: Oh. music, ok.

Ravenheart< Oh, and yes, I don't trust many government officials in any nation anymore ... quite frankly, they have destroyed my trust over the years, and not rebuilt it ... However, trust is about discernment ... and evaluation based on ones experiences ... Peace and LOVE come directly from GOD, and my God-Self ... I do not feel trust is part and parcel of Love, and Peace, and GOD ...

Yopo< Ben, Yeah. According to Mel Brooks, the problem was Moses, who accidently broke the third tablet bearing the last 5 of the 15 commandments ...

Ben< Yopo: Well, Moses only had two hands. And the ten "words" he brought down the mountain have stood the test of time. Things got complicated after that.

FRAML< greyman: Or Being stuck inside a drum and beaten with the drum stick seems definitely weird.

mrsdeviji< i just read a good statement from yopo, who got it from ben?

afriend< I suspect that I would rather be judged by a particular supreme being than by any human I've known. That being the case, I feel safer with a more absolute code that I think will be used then.

FRAML< I think that I need to go visit St. Sealy's, based upon my last few posts.

SLIDER< Goodnight FRAML --I think I will leave soon too. -- Peace be with you.

merry< FRAML, there is a huge difference between judgement and discernment. Eliminating judgement leads to much clearer discernment, since one's assessment is not distorted by the emotional underpinings of judgement.  // guitarist, even assuming that the ten commandments are part of a system of clues, they were channeled through people, making them subject to misinterpretation. I would think the "real" clues would be unequivocal. Additionally, the ten commandments have not been availalbe to all peoples at all times. The clues I speak of would have to have been available to EVERYONE, through all of human history.

selki< The intolerance and absolutism of past ages, and of fellow humans, is evidence that we must strive to understand our own reasoning, to avoid repeating mistakes. Moral absolutes are another thing that people hold onto, much like god.

LadyV< FRAML, I have to leave in about one minute ... please post your magazine article ...

FRAML< LADYV: WWII History is the name of the magazine. The premier issue (November) features historical articles on the attack on Pearl Harbor. My article is entitled 'Pearl Harbor: Irredeemable Defeat'.

merry< Ben, I would agree with that. It's partly for that reason that I came to see that if there were any moral absolutes, God would have made that information available in ways that could not be misinterpreted either intentionally or unintentionally.

LEGS< Ah Ravenheart, then it is to be regretted that you were not serving all this time as God's exec. assistant.

greyman< FRAML, ouch Ludweg you say?

LadyV< Thank you, Ben ... expecting late call at 11 PM ... night all ... thank you so much for the sharing and the learning together.

merry< selki ... well said! *S*

Yopo< mrsdeviji Could be. There's a long history of seminars.

mrsdeviji< I like your description of evil as "a conscious, willful, predisposition to cause pain and suffering for it's own sake, or as a conscious disregard for pain and suffering in the pursuit of selfish goals." It can be active or passive, attack or neglect. ... whoever said it, i like it ...

LEGS< {*{*{*{*{*Slider*}*}*}*}*}*}*} so gooooood to see you here tonite

Yopo< LadyV, A very good night to you! *S*

Ravenheart< thank you all for your wonderful shares ... absolutely stimulating ... indeed this room fills up with such intelligence and insight ... thank you GREYMAN for your seminar ... and all who have shared ... may peace and love and joy find you all quite well ... ((((((((((HUGS)))))))))) good night

greyman< Good night, SLIDER, I have appreciated your common sense approach to the discussions. Go in Peace friend.

LEGS< ((((LadyV)))) nitey nite

greyman< Good night LadyV, sleep well.

FRAML< Good night SLIDER: Don't forget to count your blessing before you sleep, it is better than counting sheep.

mrsdeviji< now take your high morals into spiritweb (laughs)

selki< (((LadyV))) good night.

SLIDER< Goodnight Everyone, It is a pleasure to have a group such as this to converse with. Peace and blessings to all.

Yopo< G'd night to you, Ravenheart *S* And SLIDER, too.

Ravenheart< LEGS ... so unnecessary your sarcasm ... tis not loving speech ... a button was pushed here, and it is something to look at ... I never thought of being Gods exec assistant ... however, I do have a voice ... and I am allowed to speak as well ... good night ... maybe next week we will find some line of understanding ... Peace and (((HUG)))

LEGS< Surely such expertise is being wasted here on Earth, Ravenheart, ... even your judgement of my comment ranks with the divine, no doubt.

FRAML< Tis time for me to depart as well. Thank you all for the interesting dicussion tonight.

guitarist< Goodnight, (((Slider))) -- good to see you again.

selki< Good Night everyone, this was ABSOLUTELY a great discussion. Thank you.

Ravenheart< Thank you Yopo. Your words and approach to views is always refreshing ... and thank you for conversing with me, and for saying goodnight ...

greyman< Ben, I appreciate brevity. And in the case of the 10 commandments boiling down into two: Love God, and Love your neighbor. That is a pretty piece of "moral software" optimization!

Ben< greyman: Yes ... and then we need to learn what love is, and do it.

Ishtahota< Ben, That is the greatest Question that Humans have never asked.

Ben< Ishtahota: Hello! Good to see you. Well ... SOME humans have asked that question, and some have tried to live the answer.

greyman< Ben, by degree. Step by careful step.

guitarist< Ben, that could be the next seminar! I don't recall that we've had one about learning what love is, and doing it.

kathleen< night Ravenheart ... sorry ... I have only been listening ... and not doing a very good job at it ... I must say ... peace be with you.


Yopo< Good night FRAML! Blessings ...

SLIDER< I am just going to listen for a bit folks (s)

Ravenheart< LEGS: I am not interested in a pointless, powerless argument ... Kathleen ... night sweetie ... ((((Hug))))

greyman< Good night FRAML!

greyman< selki *G*

Yopo< G'd night, selki

guitarist< greyman, I agree with LEGS that we should talk about the metrics next week.

LEGS< Ravenheart, I apologize for my comments ... they are in response to my discernment of your words, shall we say purely from my own perspective and possibly not deserved by you ... hope we meet when I am more forgiving or not so touchy

greyman< guitarist, That would be nice except that Verity1 & I will be up in NYC next weekend.

guitarist< greyman, how about the week after?

greyman< guitarist, I would like to have a little more time to prepare my thoughts, the spirit is willing but the mind is blitzed!

Ishtahota< Ben, But we do not know LOVE. Love is a realization that can only happen in us after we face all of our own personal deamons and fears. To do this humans have to see the truth in who they really are and take responsibility for their actions. It is a shame, but almost all of us would rather have a root canal.

Ben< Ishtahota: Some know what LOVE is. However, I must agree that most probably don't -- that's why so many are surprised and puzzled when they encounter someone who actually loves them with no strings attached.

kathleen< going to say good night ... peace be with all of you. Greyman ... the best up-link on your NYC trip, ... Loose ... later little brother ... Yopo ... same to you ... later ... night all ...

greyman< Goodnight kathleen, restful dreams.

kathleen< ty greyman

Yopo< Good night, kathleen. *S* Good seeing you! Blessings, sister ...

LEGS< ((((Kathleen)))) good to see you here dear friend

guitarist< So many people are attached to others who bear them no real love, and they forget what real love is after a while.

Ishtahota< Ben, It only counts when you can both know it and feel it. The latter much personal work.

greyman< Good night dear ones. Thank you for your encouragement. It is always appreciated by this hairy-eared engineer.

Awenydd< When I have come to terms with my mortality, and discover where my honor hides ... When my quest for belief has ended, and the light of truth shines in my eyes ... When I could give my life to a friend, and ask for nothing in return ... Then I will know love ...

Yopo< Good night, greyman. Thanks for an excellent seminar!

guitarist< greyman, you should try to do this more often (not all the time; I know, you're a working stiff like the rest of us) -- you're good!

Yopo< Howdy, brother Awenydd! *S*

Awenydd< Howdy Bro Yo!

guitarist< greyman, I know that Yankl appreciated the focus of the discussion. (He's another engineer, you may recall.)

Ben< ALL: Peace and blessings to each of you. Good night.

Yopo< Good night to you, Ben! Blessings ...

guitarist< Good night, (((Ben))). It was good to see you again.

LEGS< ((((BEN))))

guitarist< I'm going now, as well. Good night and blessings on all.

monahawke< So did I miss a good saturday night session?

Yopo< A good discussion tonight! We dove into the deep and murky waters of Moral Relativism. THEN the discussion got SERIOUS. *S*

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