FRAML< I haven't had any more mind bursts on what to do tonight other than what I posted. I'm not sure where to start, let alone try to go with it.

Yopo< Hello, ALL *S*

suitESPirit< Of course FRAML ~~~ It's also why I have a legitimate excuse for being, "ALL SHOOK UP"~~~

cassandra< Namaste Yopo - good to see you.

greyman< Namast* dear ones!

FRAML< Hi Yopo.

daCrone< Great Greetings (((SLIDER alremkin suitESPirit FRAML cassandra yankl))) *S*S*S*S*S*S*

SLIDER< Howdy Yopo and DaCrone

Yopo< FRAML, cassandra *S*

cassandra< Namaste greyman

elevaphoenix< Namaste, loving lightbeings!!!!!!!

SLIDER< Hello --- greyman

cassandra< ((((((elevaphoenix))))))) haven't seen you for a long time.

daCrone< and (((elevaphoenix Yopo greyman mekk fuzzie))) *VBSSSSSSSS*

FRAML< For those of you who might have missed my posting. Ben has added 5 more seminars to his site. They are ones that guitarist, Ben and I lead last fall.

Yopo< Hi SLIDER (*hehe* We're gonna be sayin' hi, howdy, and hello 'til the hour is over ... )

fuzzie< (((daCrone)))

FRAML< Actually the seminars are on greyman's site and Ben has posted titles and links to them on his.

FRAML< Concept (revised 21 April 1999) These seminars are open to anyone who wants to attend. Each seminar will explore a stated topic. Each meeting will be a one hour guided discussion, followed by unguided discussion of the topic. There will be no fees or other charges, no grading system, and no predetermined "school solution." Selected portions of the meeting transcripts will be posted on this site -- but not if they contain a statement such as "off the record".

FRAML< Groundrules (revised 21 April 1999) Courtesy is expected. Instead of attacking what others believe, say what you believe -- or politely ask others to explain what they post. Please keep your posts reasonably brief, and please don't get into off-topic side conversations. Please use the private message function to send greetings to new arrivals and to "whisper" in class once it starts. That way the text is easier for everyone to follow, and it is easier for me to clean up the transcript afterward.

yankl< Regrets from Guitarist. She's attending a conference this weekend and cannot join us.

FRAML< Spirituality is defined as: 1. spiritual character, quality, or nature; opposed to sensuality, worldliness.

FRAML< Aging is defined as: to grow old or mature.

alremkin< Easing into the topic, it seems that as I age I'm becoming aware that at the same time I'm becoming an elder? I hadn't thought of this until recently, yet it rings true.

FRAML< 1st question follows:

SLIDER< FRAML --- ageing makes the best wiskey

FRAML< 1st Question: What are some examples of beliefs you held when you were younger that you no longer hold. And why have you moved away from them.

FRAML< Your turn.

fuzzie< Tough question.

spiritcat< imho i believed sensuality was important and now it is even more but sensuality not sex ... are they necessary to be together sensuality and spirituality?

spiritcat< as far as sensuality is concerned i have moved away as i feel it is ... hard to say in words except unnecessary to me ...

spiritcat< in other words i can experience spirituality better when i am one and not necessarily sensual

FRAML< Spiritcat: We might get around to that, right now sensuality is not the question I asked.

spiritcat< oh ok sorry =^ ... ^=

Star12< Belief in a personal God. Moved away because life taught me to read and question

one-of-four< three things that aren't important but were. Being first, being "right", and raking in big bucks

spiritcat< moved from belief in one god and redemption and all coz there is more to it than just that // better framl

SLIDER< FRAML--- I've learned that to be spiritual one must find their own reasons to reach that conclusion, and to feel spiritual one must be at-- one with themselves and feel no pressure from any religious doctrine or dogma taught by any person as a mystic or mysticly presented lesson.

spiritcat< exactly slider =^ ... ^=

elevaphoenix< I believed it was important to demonstrate a personality that others found interesting in order to have any social interaction at all. I now understand the importance of being EXACTLY who I am. And ... guess what? It's Good Enough. *VBG*

greyman< FRAML, how far back? When I was a child, I had the preception that my father was perfect. When I saw that he was not perfect (about age 6) it was a disappointment. Intrestingly enuff, when I reached the wise age of 35 I had a greater apprecation for my father. The Mark Twain effect *G*.

FRAML< greyman: back to teenage years is far enough.

yankl< I've recently come to believe that there are many ways to worship and relate to G-d that are all okay. Accepting the beliefs of others has been a problem for me in the past.

fuzzie< When I was little, I used to think that all the fireworks on the 4th of July were just for MY birthday. hahaha Realized later that I was not the center of the universe. LOLOLOLOL

spiritcat< felt that i was being trapped by one dogma ... preferred to explore all sides of spirituality

Yopo< (*brushing off dust* I seem to have fallen down the SWC basement stairs ... )

daCrone< I used to think heaven was 'up there' ... that there were folks who had 'the' correct answer to every question - I just had to find them! ... that there were few grey areas ... that knowing came from the outside, in ...

moonspinner< I now know that the little people, enchanted ones and the majic I experienced as a young person were not just a figment of my imagination like the grownups said they were ... they are very real and majic does exist ...

elevaphoenix< Ah, fuzzie, I can relate to that. My real name is Marilyn ... and MY version of the song goes like THIS: "Row, row, row your boat ... gently down the stream ... Marilyn, Marilyn, Marilyn, Marilyn ... life is but a dream." *LOL*

fuzzie< That the only appropriate place to "worship" was in a "house of god" ... discovered later that worship is better outside of man-made things.

fuzzie< elevaphoenix ... *S* Cool! I like that!!

greyman< FRAML, so the easter bunny thing is right out *G*.

yankl< Reading CS Lewis opened me up to re-examine a lot of things.

alremkin< My basic beliefs haven't changes much, but my emphasis has changed. when I was young and full of youthful enthusiasism, I believed I could explain to anyone in a way acceptable to them how to be more loving and make the world a better place. Now I realize there have always been enlightnened people on earth and yet the world is as it is. So I haven't so much changed as that I've realized that may not change the world, but still it's a question of who I want to include myself with saints, prophets and masters, NOT power mongers. although I also realize it's not always easy to tell the difference when there's personal invovlvement, but I've learned to trust inner guidance more.

fuzzie< That what they taught us in school about history was true ... later came to the realization that it's just propaganda.

yankl< Greyman, Hey, wait a minute. Next thing you know, you'll be telling me there's no Santa Claus!

cassandra< I read a saying the other day that I liked - All gods are ONE, we just have different names.

daCrone< my understanding of 'the last shall be first and the first shall be last' was contained in an image of flattened souls being stacked in a huge pile ... an image which always made me uncomfortable LOL

spiritcat< that life was created by peers then i found me and created my life by me

spiritcat< and discovered angels and other entities ...

elevaphoenix< I believed that we were on a march to a glorious future of peace and abundance and leisure ... that things were only going to get better through the application of science. I have come to see the other edge of each scientific sword. *VBS*

Yopo< Hmm ... *still thinking* I have come to believe in my own mortality in a very real way. That was an abstraction when I was young.

cassandra< meaning we just have different names for who and what we think is right. *G* I always get mixed up.

spiritcat< saw some graffitti ... all masters no gods ... thought all gods no masters ... *S*

moonspinner< just because we choose to step out of the norm and live our lives that way doesn't mean we are outcasts ...

daCrone< my initial impressions were of separation of self from spirit ... and the basic change in my beliefs is that I now feel spirit is what is ... I am far more connected and do not perceive inate separation *S*

FRAML< Question 2 follows.

SLIDER< fuzzie--- I have come to the conclusion that to worship -- is to bow down to lesser gods--no offence intended --- we are all part of the creation and we need to learn how to relate to the creation -- and IMHO worship of any one or any thing is giving up the power that was bestowed to us from the creation -- to that which one would worship--- we need to hold on to our creation power to recognize where and how we fit into the whole creation.

fuzzie< SLIDER ... well said!! Bow down to lesser gods ... well said!!

FRAML< Question 2: What is your current spiritual/religious belief and how did you arrive at it?

FRAML< Your turn.

one-of-four< with age I find I see more of myself in others. As there is the common bond of humanity. That rat race to riches is for rats but for man it is impoverishing

spiritcat< that angels are real ... discovered when my dad died and have encountered numerous earth angels and universal angels

moonspinner< I believe with God all things are possible and he work in misterious ways ... I've lived it!!

elevaphoenix< I believe in reincarnation because I have experienced a number of my own past lives, including the deaths, through Past Life Regression Hypnotherapy. I've EXPERIENCED it. *VBS*

spiritcat< also believe that mother earth is very real and was there before i came and will always be there ... we are priveledged to be here to do the best we can and to help her and others ... found when looking for a future

elevaphoenix< I believe we exist simultaneously in other dimensions from the ones we see ... because I have been taught to work in them during my distance healing missions. I've BEEN there, WORKED there. *VBS*

elevaphoenix< (I'm not shouting, friends, I just speak emphatically sometimes ... *embarassed grin*)

spiritcat< reincarnation as i have experienced previous lives and have one with me now ... trying to heal it ... found when trying to find my truth

one-of-four< arrived from experiences have replaced beliefs with knowing. Mind you not an understanding a recognition knowing . spiritually know a sense of selflessness , a oneness with all. words fail me on this one .

LadyV< one-0f-four it is understood by those that relate to the experience.

SLIDER< FRAML--- I believe we are individual spirit beings that have lost our true purpose ---and many are moving toward the realization that this is not what existance is all about.

FRAML< SLIDER: yes.

cassandra< I believe Christ or Spirit lives within me. I have learned to listen for that Voice and to do what It tells me - in all things. I have discovered that if I do not pay attention I usually get in trouble. And my idea of heaven is different. I know that we DO come back after death - so we don't really lose our loved ones.

Yopo< Ah, there's a question ... *S* I originally had an unquestioning belief in some vague authority-figure, residing in some remote celestial realm, who meted out justice and protected the righteous. That was my childish thinking, based on what earthly authority figures told me. I now believe in some animating consciousness that exists within all things, and figure that right, wrong, and justice are things we must look within our own hearts to find. I'm not even sure I'm a monotheist these days ...

SLIDER< Yopo --- I had the the same ill concieved notions when I was younger, And now am on the same wave length with you --- we are progressing you know It only takes and open mind that listens to self.

Yopo< SLIDER They were the notions that serve some folk well throughout a lifetime. It isn't easy, finding oneself completely outside of any conventional religious context.

greyman< A spiritual spectrum exists in three layers. This can be expressed in terms of kingdoms (or realms). The lower or darker spiritual space is the kingdom of coercion. Mid or grey layer or kingdom of confusion. And the kingdom of kindness (light).

alremkin< Unconditional Divine love is the guiding principal of the multiverse. The challenge of this level is to bring that love forth from within ourselves inspite of the separation. I've been blessed on several occasions to feel the love of members of the Heavenly Host to the extent that I no longer call it belief in God, but rather knowing, although I know very little I understand this is the begining of the most important thing I can do; humbly blend myself with God.

cassandra< I also go along with the KNOWING. One just suddenly KNOWS.

suitESPirit< IKNOW ~ THAT I KNOW ~ THAT I KNOW

spiritcat< we are as we speak ... and then we realise and ... become

Skycatcher< My daily experience of spirituality is one of reflection. Everywhere around me, and within me, I see reflections of Creation in both the micro and the macro. The most telling of these is when I am open and aware enough to see myself mirrored in those around me. For me, it confirms the Oneness of all, that we are all One and the Same.

FRAML< Third Question next.

Skycatcher< LOL - Life and the Creator as one giant disco ball, hovering over the ballroom of life.

yankl< To quote a Chief Justice "I can't define pornography, but I know it when I see it". In the same way, we can know the truth when we see it, but we can't always explain or define it.

elevaphoenix< My Universe is expanding to include the possibility that EVERYone is right ... except for the one who says everyone else is wrong.

greyman< elevaphoenix, beware the "excluded middle"!

elevaphoenix< greyman, please explain "the excluded middle". *VBS*

greyman< elevaphoenix, LAW OF THE EXCLUDED MIDDLE In logic, the proposition "every proposition is either true or false". This proposition is on a logical level higher (see theory of logical types, ordinality) than the propositions referred to. (Krippendorff)

elevaphoenix< Ah, greyman *VBS* Thank you very much!!!!!! *VBS*

FRAML< Question 3: What spiritual belief have you retained from your earlier years (at any point) but now have a new insight or understanding of it based upon your experiences, study, and observation of others.

FRAML< Your turn.

Bjays_Angel< ((((((((((ESP)))))))))))

spiritcat< that there is a god/great spirit/whatever one calls it and that i am co-creating with her/him/it

spiritcat< that people are on the path and when they are awake/aware they arrived at that through their own knowing and at different or same time as others

Skycatcher< I think ... when my spirituality is as pure and unquestioned as when I was a child, I am the most at peace. It's only when I let other's begin to have definition that I get mind-full, instead of heart-felt. So, I'd have to say the belief I'e retained, or most seek to retain, is pure faith and trust.

SLIDER< alremkin--- I feel we need not humble ourselves with god --- we do need to feel the power that we are bestowed with as part of god and creation--- false gods and demigods would have us humble our selves before them --but not Jesus or the father or the son would humble us before them.

FRAML< SLIDER :)

greyman< Kindness is a force that brings beings together. Indifference does the opposite.

spiritcat< yes greyman

alremkin< #3: Easy, God is power, beauty, spirit and love in pure form as we truly love we touch God. This hasn't changed.

spiritcat< detachment helps us cope with the indifference of others ... as well as their 'negative' behaviours

cassandra< The Higher Spirit to me is sexless - neither male nor female but a combination of both.

Skycatcher< I remember being caught in a strong Judeo-Christian culture, thinking that this just wasn't the "God" I instinctively knew and loved. Then I started trying to fit in, trying to adopt this other God, to please certain adults around me, and I lost my own way in the process.

elevaphoenix< I have a very small, very personal answer to #3 ... when I was about 2 or 3 I had a series of dreams where I died in various ways ... I fell to my death in a quarry ... a lion ate me ... my brother shot me ... my throat was cut ... etc. I told my parents about them at the breakfast table but all I got was a "That's nice, dear. Now eat your cereal." Later I found them all ... in that Past Life Regression Hypnotherapy. All of them. And I understood that I was leaving myself clues that would stick with me. And I understood more of what each one meant in terms of that lifetime and in terms of this one. *VBS*

alremkin< SLIDER: I feel the need to humbly express a CERTAIN gatitude for the life I've been given as an infinitesimal part of the infinte IAM; I am.

Yopo< When I was a child, I knew there were sometimes these shadowing somethings lurking around in the room at night. The adults all assured me they weren't really there ... *whispering* Now, I once again think sometimes they ARE. *S*

SLIDER< FRAML--- That from all time no one person can tell another person what a true spiritual experiance is. I have found no clergyman of any faith that can explain what God is and convince me of his or her conclusions.

FRAML< Skycatcher: Have you found, through your own study of Judeo-Christianity teachings since then, the "God" who you instinctively knew and loved?

Skycatcher< Being about 13 at the time, fitting in was the most important goal in my life. Now, many years older, I realize that self-definition, self-knowledge, or should I capitalize Self here (meaning Higher Self), is what is most important.

greyman< Law of the Excluded Middle The Law of the Excluded Middle is that Òif a given proposition is not true then its denial must be trueÓ. See also The Law of (Non) Contradiction which says that Òif a given proposition is true then its denial cannot be trueÓ. Whereas formal logic places an absolute ban on Contradiction, Intuitionism is a branch of Logic which holds that the Law of Excluded Middle is not valid.

daCrone< bbs ... dog needs out

one-of-four< these words I have heard and repeated over and over in my mind as it would arise 'and Jesus wept'. I thought differntly before and now to say the words they have a meaning that I find I weep too.

greyman< As expressed for clearity *G.

cassandra< As we speak my room is full of Spirit and LOVE. Also other spirits have drifted in. Several people have died here in the complex and some of them visit my apartment frequently. I guess they felt the LOVE from all of you and came to join in.

spiritcat< i go with intuitionism =^ ... ^=

Skycatcher< No FRAML - I have turned away from the Judeo-Christian teachings. I studied them for a while, but realized that they didn't fit my own experiences of God. I can see them as allegories and metaphors of life, perhaps a little history thrown in, but cannot accept them as "religion" for myself. However, if others choose them, that is where they are supposed to be for this time, and I respect that.

Ben< FRAML: After I was expelled from a church at age 14 for challenging too many dogmas, I consciously threw out everything I was taught there -- but I also made a decision: "IF there is anything good, or true, or beautiful, or holy, Jesus of Nazareth somehow has something to do with it." Forty years later when I told someone what I had done, he said, "That was the mustard seed." What? "The mustard seed of faith that has grown into a tree." I said, "Oh. Yes. That's what is was. And it was enough."

cassandra< Ben - I agree with you.

Yopo< This was a puzzle to me for a long time. Still is, actually: Why so many folks who want to convince you of the reality of their religious beliefs get so upset and uptight when you mention any sort of encounter with non-material beings or experiences with a non-material realms ...

FRAML< Summation follows.

SLIDER< alremkin-- would you humble yourself before your biological parents -- or stand up proud and be proud to be part of your family --- be it spiritual or earthly?

greyman< one-of-four, Yes I believe the context was when Jesus looked at the sister of Lazereth. The thought that He (Jesus) did not get to them until three days after the death of Lazereth. I believe he cried because he felt that he may have caused 3 days of needless suffering by those who loved Lazereth.

FRAML< Tonight we explored where we started out with our spiritual beliefs and how they changed (slightly or radically) over the years. As one ages or matures one's beliefs may or may not mature. It is useful to occassionally ask: where am I now and how did I get here? Is there something from my past that I may have discarded that perhaps worth re-examining or should it be left behind and never revisited.

FRAML< Thank you all for participating in the seminar tonight. The screen is now open for discussion.

FRAML< /topic Ben's Seminar: Post Seminar Discussion

greyman< FRAML, thank you, well done.

alremkin< SLIDER: I have no earthly family and my experience has shown me pride is a big step toward separation. To be is enough for me.

yankl< Good night everyone. I just got off the phone with Guitarist, she sends her regards.

greyman< yankl, Good night, rest well.

FRAML< Good Night Yankl. My best to guitarist.

spiritcat< FRAML thank you ... i needed that

one-of-four< I am calling it a night good night everyone *S* ... poof

elevaphoenix< Good night all ... *POOF*

alremkin< Good night to those leaving.

FRAML< one-of-four: Good night and remember to count your blessings before you sleep.

SLIDER< alremkin --- Bless you

Yopo< G'd night yankl, one-of-four

Skycatcher< For me, religion/churches are about what you can't do, aren't allowed to do. Spirituality is about what I have the potential to do or be, what I have the potential to Create with my Creator. One limits the soul, one frees the soul.

Ben< Yankl, good night. Give my best to guitarist, too.

cassandra< Yes. Thank you, FRAML. It was a most interesting and enlightening discussion, I thought.

spiritcat< yes Skycatcher =^ ... ^= blessings to all

greyman< Good night dear ones.~~

cassandra< Goodnight all. Many blessings.

FRAML< Skycatcher: I have met many folks who have had experiences similar to yours. A few of them have found that there was the "God" they innately knew and loved in the new testament if they read it as if it were something new to them. They discovered that they had to dump the baggage of "church" doctrine and dogma.

alremkin< SLIDER: Thank you. May the love of God light your life.

SLIDER< Skycatcher-- (vbs)

Ben< Skycatcher, I agree with you about religion/churches versus spirituality. And there is an awful contrast between what most churches teach and what Jesus taught.

spiritcat< peace and blessings to all ... =^ ... ^= purrrrrring out

Skycatcher< For those people, blessings. For me, I find God in my heart, and in a night sky, and in a breeze caressing my skin, in every breath I draw, and in the promise beyond breath. None of this comes from any book, although I am well read. All of this comes from my own innate Oneness with my Creator. No book can define or confine that for me.

SLIDER< Goodnight to all that are leaving---Peace and Blessings

FRAML< Skycatcher: I have found that church has expanded my horizons and has opened up my soul to understanding and growth. I guess it is the congregation that one belongs too that is a factor here.

Uther< Greetings and salutations

Skycatcher< Framl - if a church, or temple, or ashram, or mosque has enhanced your experience of God, that is truly a blessing for you, and one that should be cherished.

FRAML< Good night spiritcat.

alremkin< Skycatcher: I have a saying about church groups: "when humans create church organizations God is usually left out." I believe that in the best sense the outward teachings of churches and such are meant to help us connect to the kingdom of heaven within, but because of human power dynamics, love and god are quickly forgoten for the illusion of power. Which is why each succesive generation must find truth for itself.

SLIDER< FRAML --- I have found that the church has closed doors to me or would not open them, that's what put me on a life long quest to try and find a meaning for the --- WHY ---

FRAML< Skycatcher: Thank you. You have found where you are and I take no issue with that. *S*

LadyV< Hello Uther you left so fast the other evening that we did not have time to enjoy your good company. How are you?

Uther< LadyV: I am doing well, and you? Sorry for the fast departure something came up.

Ben< FRAML: What I can review looks like this was a very good seminar. Excellent topic. Namaste.

Skycatcher< alremkin - perhaps that is God's challenge for those who would congregate in His name - to be able to congregate, and not forget His teachings. As long as people keep trying, there must be hope. Measure congregations and congregants by their successes, not their failures.

FRAML< Hello Uther.

Uther< FRAML Good evening. How are you?

Yopo< Sorry to have contributed so little to the evening. Cannot seem to collect my thoughts tonight. *S* My mind is wandering all over the place ...

Bjays_Angel< Hello

FRAML< Skycatcher: *S*

Uther< LadyV So ... whats going on for you?

LadyV< Uther I am well. Thank you for asking.

alremkin< Skycatcher: Yes I agree that's the challenge

Skycatcher< I think, for the true at heart, the "failings" of their congregations are as painful as can be. But thank goodness for their community that they keep trying to embody the love of their teachings.

FRAML< Uther: doing well, thank you. I hope you are the same.

FRAML< Hi BJ_A

FRAML< Ben: Thank you. It came together tonight.

LadyV< Uther peace. What has been going on with you? [smiling]

Uther< FRAML So what is the hot subject for tonight?

Uther< Gotta go, I'll try to check in later.

LadyV< ok ... Uther ...

FRAML< Uther: The topic was "The spirituality of aging." A discussion of how our beliefs have changed, or not, over the years and why. It will all be in review in the morning.

alremkin< Skycatcher: Yes, with pure intention there's a magnetic spiritual force which attacts. I've been to too few places where the spirit energy is extremely intense. I'm working now to cultivate that energy within myself and form small spirit groups with others.

Skycatcher< Churches (and temples etc.) are odd entities. By their very nature they challenge the God within us all. Two people get together to worship, and there might be harmony. More than two, and one wants to light the candles this way, another that way and the third is allergic to candles. So someone starts making rules, rights and rituals to 'create' controls. So immediately humankind has put their stamp on the worship, and God hasn't had a lot to do with it, except to draw the humankind together to practice His teachings on each other. I think that the Bible's words ... created in His image ... are what we CAN be, not often what we are.

FRAML< Skycatcher: That is the challenge, to live our lives that way, dispite the controls.

Skycatcher< I think it's in the nature of humankind to draw together in celebration of Oneness. I know I miss having community to celebrate with. I keep hoping I'll find a community someday. But if not, I also know I never truly celebrate "alone".

Skycatcher< Framl - a question - you seem knowledgable about Christian stuff. When Jesus said "When two or more are gathered in my name ... " Well, what if only one is there? Why did he have to have two?

SLIDER< FRAML It's funny how one church will condem the way another church puts forth it's messege, when their all supposed to be talking about the same theme.

Yopo< Interesting question ...

FRAML< Skycatcher: I think it is for mutual support and also caring. Also it was meant in sharing belief rather than focusing on a life as a hermit. In being with others one is also challenged to grow and helped to grow (hopefully).

LadyV< I agree interesting question ...

LadyV< ... that would be a seminar Why did He have to have two? Need a long discussion on that question!!

FRAML< SLIDER: Yep, dogma and doctrine getting in the way of what is in the basic text, and being "more important."

alremkin< Energy is magnified when we can work together in truth and love. I've met with people in places like this which is good and now I've been blessed to know a few others with whom I can work inperson. It seems slow, but I believe this is usually the way we bring love forth as well as in the little things we do each day.

LadyV< Maybe because loving only yourself is a bit of a bore?

FRAML< LadyV: Because he came by sea?

LadyV< I did not intend that to be flippant ... although, it came out that way ... all that is of the progress of humankind and religion and society is based on the idea of Two ... not one ...

Skycatcher< From my memory, it implies that I have to have a friend around before Jesus would show up. Not to be disrespectful, but that's always the way I thought of that section. And even though I don't "believe in" him, that doesn't sound like anything he'd say or mean to imply.

FRAML< I can hear the bells of St. Sealy's begineng to peel in the background. My departure time has arrived.

LadyV< good point FRAML

LadyV< Ok ... run to the St. Sealy and leave us here to debate the point ... [laughing]

Skycatcher< And he spent some of his most anguished moments in the Garden of Gethsemene ... alone.

SLIDER< FRAML --- thank you for leading tonight --good topic ---Peace and blessings to you and yours.

alremkin< Skycatcher: My intuition tells me it has something to do with having another part of God seeking God seeking God with you that sets up a type of resonance which Jesus finds beautifully attractive to the extent that he personally comes to bless these.

FRAML< Skycatcher: I don't believe it was meant to mean that. He will be there for the solitary person. And I believe that is taken from the context of the Last Supper. And if so, then, it must be examined "in" and not "out" of context.

Ben< Skycatcher: Jesus didn't say two people are always necessary. He said when you pray go into your private room and shut the door and pray to your Father in secret.But two are better than one for receptive prayer, because if one is so up-tight one can't hear one's neighbor, much less the Lord, the other can pray for him or her and be the receiver.

LadyV< Skycatcher not alone ... He went and checked on his mates ... and he had the help of the angels ... and his relatives on the other side ... not alone.

FRAML< Ben: Perhaps you have an insight to Skycatcher's question about "two or more are gathered"?

SLIDER< alremkin--- Good intuition (S)

LadyV< thats a good point ... Ben I thought the private room was the heart ... I did not take it literally ... have to think on that one a bit more.

alremkin< Good night FRAML

FRAML< Ben: Thanks for being ahead of me. *G*

Skycatcher< Have to admit I don't remember the context, but if he was speaking to a group of his disciples, then context would be important. but I'm still a little bothered by it. Maybe I'll introduce it at another time. LOL - there are always a bunch of Christians in the 'Henge just waiting to educate us poor heathens, maybe I'll give 'em a chance.

FRAML< Good night everyone. Don't forget to count your blessings before you sleep.

Yopo< G'd night FRAML. G'd night, Ben. (I, too, think that "Why two?" question might be open to some much deeper discussion ... )

Yopo< (*LOL* Uh ... I thought FRAML was referring to Ben getting out the door ahead of him ... )

SLIDER< Goodnight Yopo sleep well

Skycatcher< Dang! I have a bunch of books of translations of the Bible from the original Aramaic, but the books are at my folks home in Florida. I always start with the original translations with cases like this - dang! dang! dang!

LadyV< SkyCatcher good for you!! Get to the bottom of it to settle your own mind and heart. SpiritESPirt is very good at translations ... she knows so many of the languages. She is interesting to compare notes with.

alremkin< I have to go now too. I've enjoyed the chat. I love you, good night.

Skycatcher< I enjoy intelligent discussions like this, and hope we can continue. Thanks for giving my question your most serious thought. Hugs and sweet dreams.

SLIDER< Peace be with you ---alrmkin

LadyV< night alremkin ... for the life of me I cannot place you ... and I know I have seen your nick often ... sorry about that ... [smiling]

alremkin< Namaste.

Ben< Skycatcher, concerning why two, I have a paper on my site called "Prayer as a Form of Two-way Communication" that you might find interesting. The last page has lessons learned from working with small-group two-way prayer.

FRAML< ****POOOOF****

Yopo< SLIDER *LOL* Plus I apparently gave the impression that I was leaving ... I'd better keep my hands off the keyboard ...

LadyV< Has it dropped in the minds among us ... that we do listen? I think we are the best listeners on the internet. We would not be here otherwise. I wonder why it is that we are attentive and delight in one of those Aha! questions. It is wonderful you know ... to listen and learn.

SLIDER< Ben I have had a nagging question about who was Jesus talking about when he threw the money changers out of the temple. He says in scripture that it is his fathers house, and from what I have read and tryed to understand about that temple it was built to honor a god of the old testement, and I feel the gods of the old testement were false gods.And were flesh and blood gods. Can you help clarify this?

LadyV< zemi Hello ... missed you.

SLIDER< Yopo I didn't see you for a while and thought you left, must have been in cyber space. LOL

LadyV< Hi MantraRAy feeling better?

Ben< LadyV: Good evening, friend. [smiles and bows] I agree that the folks who come to these seminars are the best listeners on the internet. They have had practice in listening to each other, and it shows.

Yopo< SLIDER I am here. But I am cyber-spaced. *S*

LadyV< I am sorry to change the subject ... but does anyone know the nick name of people out of Kansas and the Basketball team? I cannot spell the word!!

LadyV< Ben Hello!

zemi< Hey {{{{LadyV}}}} ... yeah ... haven't been around SWC much lately ... Glad you missed me ... :) Missed ya as well ... hugzzz *VBS*

zemi< GREETINGS to all *S*

LadyV< zemi is Mom ok? I thought of her the other day when I passed the Plantain bananas. She would get a kick out of that one. [grinning] I like her recipe better than mine.

SLIDER< Greetings ---zemi

LadyV< It starts with an H ... ??

SLIDER< Yopo -- Have you had any strange weather in your area recently?

zemi< LadyV Yeah ... she is well ... thank Goodness, thanks for asking ... and I will tell her the plaintain part LOL *VBS* // Hi SLIDER *S*

Yopo< Kansas folk? Nickname for? I'm drawing a blank ...

Ben< SLIDER, Jesus said the Temple was supposed to be a house of prayer, but they had turned it into a den of thieves. There was (and often is) confusion between the God of the OT and the Most High God. Jesus was a Jew, but his description of our Father doesn't track with a lot of OT theology.

zemi< Hoosiers? Perhaps ... LadyV

LadyV< Hoosiers thats it ... bless you. Thank you.

Yopo< no no no ... Hoosiers are from INDIANA. Like Yopo.

zemi< LadyV You're welcome *S*

LadyV< Yopo what do you mean Indiana ... that is Kansas ... [laughing]

LadyV< Forgive us ... Yopo is a sticker for right spelling and I get a little confused sometimes.

zemi< Yopo ... hmmmmmm ... don't know any other team with an "H" to them ... only Miami "Heat" ... I believe ... *G*

SLIDER< Ben Thanks -- Can you tell me how it was designated as a house of god when it was built before Jesus birth, I know I am getting into some questionable theology here, but inquiering minds do that. (S)

LadyV< Hi QueenRose ...

LadyV< zemi What is happening with you? All good I hope!!

LadyV< I personally would like to know what is the Third Heaven mentioned by John? I am still asking that in here. Seeking an answer.

LadyV< auroara Hello ...

zemi< LadyV ... well as others in SWC may now ... I had a slight problem with a hacker earlier in the New Year, but, hopefully got it resolved ... have alot of life changes which are on the positive and growth side of it ... in spiritual terms. So, all is not to shabby with me ... :) How has it been going for you so far after the New year? *VBS*

Ben< SLIDER, I guess the kings who built and rebuilt the Temple probably did so for political reasons -- to unify the people and to provide a source of revenue to feed the priests. Jesus said it was supposed to be (or maybe he meant "should be") a house of prayer.

SLIDER< SLIDER< Ben --This a question I had for you a while back if you don,t mind I wonder if you would comment on it? How can one really come to a morality in life if all morals in life are (thought) from personal revelations or what others deem as moral. What we learn is from experience of others writings and if they make sense to us we follow them, the same goes for oral teachings. And if I feel enlightened and come to moral conclusions, are they the right ones or just my own interpretation.

Yopo< I tried to look it up. All I could find was that people from Kansas are Kansans. (Thought they might be Ozonians, or Totonians, or something a bit more colorful ... )

LadyV< semi I did not know that you had problems with a hacker!! I am glad you are feeling positive about life changes. Thats wonderful. I am doing ok. I had so many guests over the Holidays that I have not had time to really get my focus back.

LadyV< Yopo then it is those from Indiana ... thanks for looking it up for me.

Ben< LadyV: I don't know how John counted heavens, but I think he was refering to layers of the upper astral, of which there are many. Like a rainbow is actually a spectrum of colors, but we more or less arbitrarily divide it into color bands.

SLIDER< Ben -- OK I can relate to that from an objective point of veiw, but was Jesus declaring something as it should be or as he thought the teachers of old had designated it to be, Still in a cloud on this one about the temple.

LadyV< SLIDER would you consider doing a seminar for us? Please.

SLIDER< Yopo --- The tinman the lion the scarecrow and toto and Julie Andrews come from Kansas. (S)

SLIDER< LadyV-- I'll have to think about that and see if I can think of some good topics.

Yopo< SLIDER Yep. Though Mr. Baum once lived in Chicago, and sometimes got away to Indiana on visits. We've got a little town nearby named Toto. Also, a Baum's Bridge Road, though I don't know if there's any sort of family connection.

LadyV< Ben thank you! I was thinking to tell you that all through the Bible are references to the Spirit World as you know ... and I did not actually, see them until one day it was like [literally] a light going off ... and instance ... and then I knew!! The touching of the robe by the sick woman 'the spirit went out of him' or was that meant to be energy? I do not have my Bible before me ... so I might have it out of context ... so many ... possible explanations. I just could not figure 'the third heaven'!! Thank you. That makes sense and I will then take this and reread it and apply that concept.

Ben< SLIDER, that is a great question. Perhaps the most pressing and important question of our time. I can't answer it briefly, but I was in fact making notes about it this afternoon. Let me chew on it some more and see if I can find the core of it.

LadyV< Slider thank you. It helps to lay out the program for us on Greymans site or whomever, Framl is ok too ... so that we know what to think about. When we have the outline it gives us a chance to be prepared when we are on-line to answer the questions ... if you would consider this. Straight off the cuff is ok too ... just takes us longer to formulate it in our minds.

LadyV< Hi Femme

SLIDER< Ben OK

LadyV< I wonder if there is a book written by a psychic or a 'seer' or whatever, it is that one is called of a possible Bible interpertation? That would be interesting ...

LadyV< the words of the Living Christ would not be changed ... the thought of the possible meaning would be discussed.

Ben< SLIDER, concerning the Temple, I think Jesus was saying what it should be, and not what the teachers of old designed it to be. It was designed for the ritual sacrifice (slaughter) of animals. Jesus didn't advocate that kind of sacrifice.

zemi< Sorry ... had a call ... am back *S* // Hmmmm ... I always thought the "Third Heaven" was what I have heard referred to as "Prophetic Vision" in being raised a Catholic as a child ... different interpretations I guess *S*

SLIDER< Ben -- ok That stills leaves me with some work to do. (s)

zemi< GREETINGS to newcomers I missed while attending a call *S*

Ben< LadyV, Yes, the Bible is full of references to the spirit world. And yet it takes spiritual awareness (usually based on personal experience) to recognize them and realize what the writer was talking about.

LadyV< zemi and I don't know what Prophetic Vision would mean not raised a Catholic. I would have to find a Catholic Bible ... borrowed the last one ... good point!! I will use that as a resource. The Catholic Bible has different books that the Protestant Bible ... and the Catholic Bible has those books that are so beautiful to read ... and I have forgotten the books now ... just the memory of the beauty.

Ben< ALL: Time for me to get some rest. It has been a pleasure. Peace and blessings to you and yours. Good night.

Yopo< /mseg LadyV Oh. No wonder I'm lost. *hehe* I have something about the Third Heaven in a book here, but it is very weird stuff ... Having to do with hierarchies of the angelic and demonic beings and such ...

zemi< LadyV I'm no experience on Catholic doctrine, but, I believe Prophetic vision can come in certain ways ... through dreams ... vision "ectasies" like alot of the prophets have experienced or through interior "Hearing" if that makes sense ... and yes, there are extra books not found in other Bible versions ... *S*

LadyV< Ben you see!! I did not know this until I started coming to this site! I could not understand why it was that I saw the words differently ... it did not change the words as they were ... I understood the Living Christ ... as I understood the Buddha and some of the others that I was studying at the time. It was the greatest joy to me to be able to add that dimension to my life. I feel that is what so many in here are seeking to know. Why is it!!! That ... etc. etc." I want to know Why is it!! It helps to confirm or correct my own understanding.

Yopo< (oops. *S*) A very good night to you, Ben! *S* And a good Sunday ...

LadyV< Yopo you do ... what is the name of the book?????

LadyV< zemi that would make sense as John did have visions!!

SLIDER< Ben --- LadyV--- Yes I have learned to recognize many references to spirits and the spirit world while reading the bible also. At times I start to think some of the writings were channeled in order to inform a seeker to look for more than is written. ???

LadyV< Night Ben consider our questions when you find time ... we would appreciate it.

Yopo< LadyV "ANGELS ... An Endangered Species", by Malcolm Godwin

SLIDER< Peace and Blessings to you and yours ---Ben Good night

Ben< LadyV: I am glad you have found new eyes for reading the Bible, and other scriptures, too. [smiles and bows]

LadyV< Slider thinking ... that is a possible ... to ask those questions you would read the book ... many times over.

LadyV< Ben [smiling] thank you. I do thank you so very much.

Ben< ALL: Shalom. *poof*

LadyV< Yopo got it on the note pad ... thanks.

Yopo< "THIRD HEAVEN (Sagun or Shehaqim). Anahel is the angel ruler of this Heaven. It is also the domain of Azrael, the Islamic angel of Death, which seems to accord with Enoch who places Hell within its northern boundaries. Other authorities also place Gehenna North of Eden, where dark volcanic fires burn continuously polluting the air with heavy sulfurous fumes, and a river of flame flows through a desolate land of cold and ice. Here the wicked are punished and tortured by the angels." And so on. Strange, no?

Yopo< *waves to Ben*

zemi< LOL Meant ... "I'm no expert on Catholic doctrine" Lol that's what I get for being in 2 chatrooms at once ... very bad typing ... *G*

SLIDER< Yopo I think not strange--- Many pre-christian works talk about the same angels only they give them different names ...

zemi< Bye BEN & to anyone else leaving *S*

LadyV< Yopo strange but Azrael is the Islamic angel of Death ... I have read something of him ... that name is mentioned in some poems I read ... it is such a strong name that is why it stuck.

LadyV< zemi thats ok ...

zemi< Speaking of Azrael ... I got bookmarked a site on that being of "Death" ... in all different cultures at http://www.westgatenecromantic.com/encounters.htm Interesting stuff ...

LadyV< Slider that is also true. I want to say that one of the poems of RUMI mentions Azrael ... darned if I am not going to check that one out.

Yopo< SLIDER I think this Godwin fellow compiled the information in his book from The Apocrypha. The Chronicles of Enoch, mostly.

LadyV< that name also has been mentioned in the writings of the Jews ... if I were yet in school I would have to back those statements up with facts ... and truly I should do this ... frustrating not to be able to put your finger on your facts at once in open discussion!!

SLIDER< Yopo --- I had a thought the other night or maybe about a month ago, That the song Hotel California describes what 's going on here on earth, especially the verse,( we are prisoners of our own desguise.

zemi< I pretty much like how in Latino culture we got our own version of "Mr./Mrs." death represented in the "La Santisima Muerte, Santa Muerte, Dama de la Muerte" ... it's funny how death is represented in Latino culture as either a skeletal figure or a woman in long flowing robes.

zemi< LadyV You are correct ... Azrael is within Judaism ... more so in Hasidic sects is Azrael very much regarded. *S*

Yopo< *hehe* I just checked my Oxford New English Bible, with The Apocrypha. Apparently Enoch is SO DURN Apocryphal, he doesn't even get included in with the standard rejected scripture ...

SLIDER< Yopo I've read the book of Enoch and from my own perspective I feel He was in the company of flesh and blood gods, although these flesh and blood gods did speak of a mystical creator.

LadyV< zemi that would be also the legends of the woman that walks along the river calling for her drowned children ... that gives me shivers.

Yopo< SLIDER I'm almost CERTAIN The Eagles didn't make the cut either ... *G*

zemi< Yopo ... you gotta remember that alot of the surviving texts of Enoch are mainly the Ethiopic and Slavic copies that surivive and Ethiopic more so thatn Slavic Christianity ... is alot different when it comes to what is in their version of the Bible. *S*

LadyV< zemi thank you! I knew I had read that somewhere ...

zemi< LadyV Hmmmm ... only heard of the drowned woman legend from my Venezuelan and Bolivian compatriots ... but, not as "Holy Death" ... will have to look more into that ... *S*

zemi< LadyV You're welcome *S*

SLIDER< zemi--- From what I have researched about the catholic religion and Latino culture, is that Jesuite ( I think that's how you spell it) priests were who brought the religion to the latinos, and they were sent from Rome.

Yopo< I was just looking for Enoch in my Gnostic Gospel. He's not hiding out in there, either ...

LadyV< zemi it is in the Mexican legends. I read about it searching for information on the area. I did not know it was Venezuelan and Bolivian.

zemi< SLIDER Well ... the Jesuits were the hardest hitting when it came to converting the "New World" peoples ... but, you had others as well ... Carmelites, Dominicans ... etc ... *S*

SLIDER< Yopo --- Look for the book of Mormon.

LadyV< zemi why is it that the missions are so bloody with the symbols? I would have been scared enough to convert if I were Indian and walked into those missions??? Have you seen the symbols???

LadyV< Yopo [smiling] Aw, heck ... goodnight ...

zemi< LadyV You got alot of similar legends about the drowning woman throughout Latin America ... You are correct that Mexico has the legend as well ... that is why "La Santisima Muerte" is often depicted with the Sea or Ocean behind her in pictures dressed in a light blue flowing dress. *S*

Yopo< Book of Mormon??? But ... That's of recent origin, right? Godwin suggests the Chronicles of Enoch are very old texts. Pre-middle-ages ...

LadyV< Enoch is in the Book of Mormons ... wonder how that got there ...

SLIDER< zemi ---Yes there were many over the years but the Jesuits were the first and many also feel they were the first explorers to find what riches were in the other lands. I am not catholic but I do study all religions.

zemi< LadyV Catholic portrayals of the life of Christ and the Saints has always been morbid/bloody ... I don't blame you're imagining the fear it would have caused in an indigenous person and made them convert quick LOL

LadyV< zemi she is in the book of rituals for those the women that follow the Guadulape and I wondered about her. Thank you ... now I see her differently. Thank you.

LadyV< Yopo find a copy of the Book of Mormons ... or I will to check that fact ... but do believe its in there.

Yopo< Yeah, gotta sleep, no question about it. Good night LadyV! Good night, ALL. May Angels of Good Reputation bearing Unquestionable Credentials watch over us all ... *S*

zemi< LOL Hmmmm ... got to look later on in my copy of the Book of Mormon for Enoch later ... (yes, I actually let them in my home) LOL

Yopo< *S* Blessings ... *gone*

SLIDER< Yopo --- The book of Mormon is supposed to be the teachings of Enoch that were buried here in america some where in the northeast and were found through revelation by Smith.And they evedently were on gold or copper sheets and are now in the Mormon church in Salt Lake City.

zemi< SLIDER Well ... a bunch of people got their fingers in the treasures of the "New World" pie ... the Jesuits, conquistadors, Spanish, Portuguese, Dutch ... you name it, they had their fingers in it LOL

LadyV< zemi and on top of that ... in the mission is this skull and bones above the door to the left of the altar ... and my host told me that is where you go out in the coffin ... and I kept thinking its cold in here ... and damp ... and barren.

zemi< Bye Yopo *S*

SLIDER< Peace and Blessings to you Yopo

LadyV< Yopo you can have the other foot of my Teddy Bear if you need it ... and don't look into any mirrors tonight ... [that should upset his apple cart and make him think ... [teasing]

zemi< LadyV The hermetic "Monastics" tend to keep the bones of their dead monks ... I believe ... I may be wrong, but, in a monastery in the Sinai in Egypt I think there is a monastery where the outside walls and inside walls are covered with the bones of monks who passed on. *S*

LadyV< Yopo grown people do not shiver ... and I just heard knocking in the room Yopo ... I don't dare look in the back of myself.

LadyV< zemi for some reason don't think the Monks would want someone staring at the bones from the other side ... when they wanted to shake it off fast leaving the body. Weird ... but it is custom and does comfort many ... I would imagine.

LadyV< Yopo is going to be laughing until he goes to brush his teeth ... [grinning]

SLIDER< zemi -- Yes and all the great treasures were distroyed -- the written history of the south american peoples.What a pity--- Many of todays questions might be answred if the library of Alaxander and those books of the new world were open to read.

zemi< LadyV Tibetans are pretty pass* on using the bones of their dead too ... ever see movie Kundun? about the Dalai Lama ... you'll see a scene of how they use human body parts. Un-nerving to some ... just a pile of bones to others. *S*

SLIDER< LadyV --- Your BAD

zemi< SLIDER I agree that it is ashame ... but, if we didn't have these horrendous destructions of written history ... we wouldn't be so fervent in our search to find the truth about them or appreciate them if we did have them ... that's the human "animal" for you ... Not all humans, but, many unfortunately. *S*

LadyV< Slider I love the guy ... else I would not tease him so much. Besides that he has been teasing me all evening ... and now I got him [laughing]

SLIDER< (S)

LadyV< zemi you have a point there ... wonder why 3D is so blase to some? It was created in the womb of a woman. She is the creator ... at least bury it for dignity or burn it. Then again it is the apathic that would possibly be the point ... not sure.

SLIDER< LadyV ---zemi--- I am going to take my leave for the night, It's been a pleasure exchanging thoughts and notes, Peace and Blessings to you both.

LadyV< When I had my NDE it did not really dawn on me until I saw a hearse and I said to my companions 'you know what ... that could have been me in that thing' ... the remains that is. Weird!!

LadyV< Slider enjoyed you ... please consider doing one of the seminars ... thanks for being here.

zemi< LadyV It's funny but, I have a friend who works in a morgue and I actually got permission to see how he works on certain corpses ... May freak out some, but, to me the dead bodies weren't human anymore ... The spirit to me is what makes one human, not the body ... Didn't bug me at all ... different perspectives ... *VBS*

zemi< Peace and blessings as well SLIDER *VBS*

zemi< LadyV Would you mind sharing your NDE experience with me? I am really curious to know more about it. *S*

LadyV< zemi actually you are correct. The wise know this ... it is only when your own hands have loved that body is when it is all that you have for one moment longer. My ancestors were midwives and healers. It was thie job to do the last wash ... it was done with such reverence. It is considered an honour to do this. Your friend is honored and a good soul. Few can do this.

LadyV< zemi not much to it ... I just lost the heartbeat ... and do not know where I went ... I heard in my mind or spirit ... do feel it was my spirit trying to come back or was sent back ... the thoughts of the Dr. working on me. He said mentally 'don't you die on me. I don't want you on my conscience' I kept thinking No!! then I felt his hands on me and they were warm and I thought of those that loved me and needed me ... I opened my eyes. I refused to talk. I was put in my room and would not acknowledge anyone for a few hours ... and I am not sure why ... unless I was mad because they brought me back. I had some really bad after effects of what they did to my body later. I went back to the Dr. and we had a little talk ... more coming ...

SLIDER< Had to go let the dog out ---LadyV --- I will think up a topic and get in touch with FRAML or Ben and see where it goes from there. Night night.

LadyV< He raised an eyebrow as I entered the room. He was a short little Irishman. He was waiting for me to start the questioning ... and I stalled. So he asked me "Why did you not want to come back?" and I said "Whatever, it was over there ... it is better than here ... but I had too return" I told him that I knew what he was thinking ... and he said yes, that was what he was thinking ... but he did not say it outloud. He explained that I just stopped breathing ... and noone noticed until I was gone ... it was a minor procedure ... I was laying on my side and that is why my breathing was not noticed as being stopped ... not sure as to just why. We hugged each other ... and I thanked him for fighting for my life. It certainly changed my whole concept of living ... thats for darn sure. It was only one of many NDE. This one was unique in that I could feel the actual separation from the body to the spirit ... or so it seemed to me.

LadyV< slider ok ... thank you.Goodnight ...

LadyV< zemi dying is easy ... living takes more courage [smiling]

zemi< LadyV True ... it does take more courage to live ... wise words. *S*

zemi< LadyV You had more than one NDE? wow ... but, the one you just describe would not be a typical NDE ... unless in your other NDe's you had seen visions or other things ... *S* Thank you for sharing. *VBS*

zemi< *Hmmm ... just thinking out-loud* am getting such a desire or craving to go to the Middle East again ... specifically Lebanon and Israel ...

LadyV< zemi the worse was when someone tried to murder me. I went into the tunnel immediately ... and that is different ... it is like a vortex ... circle upon circle ... and near the end is the light ... I had an animal with me ... a large dog and it bit my attacker. I managed to get free. I did not see heaven ... as some do ... I don't know what my spirit saw ... nor do I understand it. I came back more aware of life and love and what was important ... and I try to live in the awareness of what my heart feels ... one is not the same afterwards and I don't know why ... maybe it is due to brain changes ... do not know.

LadyV< zemi then do it. Go with your heart. Lebanon would be such a beautiful place in the Spring ... I would feel that it would be.

zemi< Damn ... LadyV Someone tried to kill you? that's horrible! Thank God you're alright. *VVVBS* Alot of people would give their right arms to have your experiences with NDE's ... minus the "murder-attempt" part ... of course. You are very lucky to have come back with a different sense of self, it's a gift. *S*

LadyV< zemi maybe your spiritual self is needed in the middle east ... for a reason.

zemi< LadyV With some it may be India or China or Japan ... with me it's the Middle East that holds my heart ... I went the first time in '95 and have never been the same. The only thing holding me back is lack of "money" to be able to go ... God will find a way for me to go ... I've gotten alot of wonderful wanted changed recently, so I know it will happen. *S*

LadyV< zemi feel that the blessing was to understand better. I feel things more ... that I do know ... the colors of nature are more pure to me ... it is a different perception. I find that I sense people better ... and I know things at times that are just out of the air. I am a regular dame ... just more aware since the experiences.

LadyV< zemi it will happen. Visualize it! Literally ... keep it in your mind. The city ... the sounds ... the room that you want to stay in ... it will happen.

zemi< LadyV I know you're just a regular "dame" ... you don't have to tell me that *VBS* That's what makes you even more of a "realized being" spiritually ... not caught up in yourself ... You are gals gal ... you identify with all regardless of gender and that makes the best people. *S*

LadyV< zemi I have had a picture of a river scene with a big tree ... I did not know where the picture was taken. I stared at that picture for few years ... and one day just by chance I walked along that river and I saw that tree ... in my mind what I loved so much daily ... became a reality. There is great power in thought.

zemi< LadyV I am visualizing "HARD" LOL ... I'll be over there soon. Count on it. *VBS*

LadyV< zemi thank you thats a lovely compliment ... makes me feel so good for you to feel that way ... thank you so much.

LadyV< zemi it will happen!! Your heart will find a way.

zemi< LadyV You're welcome *VBS*

LadyV< zemi I have dreamt of this bridge a wooden one ... and over a small creek ... and with that willow trees. I don't know where it is ... and I have a feeling one day I will find that bridge ... its in my spirit ... has to be for me to dream of it so much.

zemi< Well ... I'm gonna head off to other parts of this Cyber world LadyV ... I send you many blessings and it was wonderful to chat with you after not having seen you for a bit ... *Hugzzzzz* and until we chat again soon. *VVVVBS*

LadyV< zemi take care ... and return when you can. Give my best to your Mom. See you ... [smiling]

zemi< Hmmmm ... I also believe that recurring dreams of places have a connection with one ... You will find that bridge of which you dream of so much ... but, you're spirit already knows you will ... *Hugzzzzzzz* *POOF*

LadyV< bye Zemi ...

zemi< Will give my mom your best wishes ... thank you for that. Blessings to you and yours *VBS* *Really POOFING* *VBS*