22 Feb 2003
Ben's Seminar
Angels (Part 2)

Ben : ALL: Tonight is the second of three sessions on the subject of angels. After a brief introduction, I will try to expand the discussion by asking three questions. Please respond to each question in turn.

Ben : Angel means messenger, and usually refers to discarnate beings who communicate with human beings, but there is more to this subject than that. Many people do not believe angels are real, and historically, angels are not the only discarnate beings who communicate with human beings.

Ben : QUESTION 1: Historically, angels have appeared to people in dreams and visions and while the person was wide awake. In any case, hypothetically or by experience, what would indicate to you that such a visitor was a figment of your imagination, or part of your own psyche, or a real discarnate entity? YOUR TURN

Skycatcher : I don't think there's any proof of "what" might have appeared. If the visitation was deemed "good", and the recipient was of a faith that categorized such as angelic, then faith would demand that the visitor was angelic. If the faith was other than angel-oriented, then the visitor would be expressed in the context of that faith. I trust in the wisdom of the Creator to speak to each of us in "our own language of faith."

FRAML : Ben: I guess if the being told me something that was beyond my knowing or knowledge. Also, I would judge whether or not it was saying something that I "wanted" to hear, or if the message was one that I "needed" to hear.

Skycatcher : FRAML - not to disagree (well, not much anyway - heh-heh) but isn't it possible for different levels of consciousness to determine what we wanted vs what we needed to hear? So while our personality might not want to hear something, our spirit knows we need to hear it, and so a conflict?

FRAML : Skycatcher: I was speaking for myself. Personality vs spirit? I think you are using different words to say what I was saying -- what I want to hear versus what I need to hear and know.

shanti : I think the universe is one giant cake - and it has a lot of ingredients in it - all of us are like particles of flour in the cake, and from this perspective we can experience other ingredients - and so from this perspective, angels are as real as us.

Awenydd : I suppose the Angel would choose to let it be known, or not, and in such a way in which the individual would best understand. It would also seem that the messenger is of little concern as opposed to the message, which could be why Angels don't always identify themselves as such.

Amala : I don't have a lot of experience to go by, but ... I'd go with my gut feeling about what I was experiencing ... the reality of things can be disguised as something other than what it is ... our perception plays a huge role ... but in general, I think if it 'feels good' then it probably IS good, and if it 'feels not good', then ... for me anyway ... beware ...

bindy : By my willingness to accept what I see and feel is real to me ... leaving pre-conditioning thoughts alone ... and sitting within my own throne of what is and is not real to me ... not sure if *real* is the word I am wanting to express there ...

alremkin : #1. Well, first, I'm not one who normally conjures up apparitions, also I've never consciously seen an angel. The way I would distinguish whether it was real or positive or negative is by feeling the presence of the Holy Spirit.

Ben : I posted the statement in front of that question to suggest a decreasing order of difficulty. In terms of trying to decide what may be real and what isn't real, dreams are most difficult, visions somewhat less so, and face-to-face while wide awake considerably less difficult.

LEGS : Ben: Does this include audient messages that you feel are angelicly generated?

Ben : LEGS: Yes, it can be either a message or a messenger, but in this question I was thinking of a messenger.

selki : I think that an angel experience leaves one with the "feeling" that they've had such an experience. I don't know how to put it into words, but I feel that when one has a spiritual experience (angel visitation) it leaves them with an awareness of what has happened.

Ben : Comment: sometimes when a child reports a spiritual experience or visitor, a parent may say, "Oh, no, it was just a dream."

FRAML : Ben: Good point. I've never experienced that, but have heard first-hand reports of parents who have said that. I have more reasons now, to believe that the children saw angels, than I once would have had and thus might have said "You were dreaming." More experiences in the last few years.

bindy : Yes, that expresses the pre-conditioning I was speaking of ... as children we are sometimes denied what is real to us ...

bindy : and society ... I think I will add that in here, too ... as an adult, I am often denied my experiences by those around me, too, as being unreal.

Ben : I find one indication that a discarnate visitor is real and not just a figment of my imagination is a feeling of presence. Like the difference between a picture of a person and the presence of the person. Another indication is my own surprise. Real visitors do and say things that I didn't expect.

alremkin : Ben: Are you saying we're more "tuned-in" than you thought? LOL. I gave you my quick version answer to that question as there were some issues around it.

Celia : The few experiences I've had have always come as a surprise and left me feeling discombobulated. The power and the beauty and the "feel" is beyond anything I could imagine.

LEGS : As with the voice messages, Celia, there is such a definiteness ... no thought of doubting ... just an urgency to deliver the message to those it is meant for.

shanti : Angel visitations are often accompanied by sounds so pure they could not come from this earth.

selki : shanti: The most harmonious sounds.

Amala : I work with a person I feel strongly is an 'angel' ... she's just ... radiant ... as well as being physically beautiful ... the gentlest, wisest spirit ... and I get a strong impression of her being 'here on a mission' ...

alremkin : Amala: To me that sounds more like a saintly person, rather than an angel.

FaireMaiden : I am late ... sorry ... To answer the question ... From my point of view there is no difference a'tween the three ... If it is a given that we all reside in the ONE MIND, the DIVINE MIND, (of which I do believe), then these apparitions are the product of all three ... and all are valid experiences ...

Ben : ALL: I didn't expect us to solve that first question tonight. I think it is a good question to have in mind: "Is this [fill in the blank] real, or just my own imagination?"

LEGS : My daddy was certain that at least twice he was assisted by angels ... once when a man appeared to help him change a tire upon the middle of a bridge, then disappeared with nowhere to have gone to ... again, by repairing his watch at a shop and refusing to accept pay, but when Daddy returned to pay anyway, was told no such young man ever was employed there.

selki : LEGS: I know 2 people who have had experiences like that.

Ben : QUESTION 2: Mohammed is one of history's best known examples of a person who received a series of messages. Early messages were peaceful. Later messages called for the use of force. What do you think accounts for this change? YOUR TURN

Amala : mmm ... *sticking my neck out here* ... to me, sounds like dark forces taking over ...

bindy : Or maybe his personality and ego took over ...

Ben : Amala: *S* Sticking one's (virtual) neck out is one of the things I encourage here.

Amala : Ben ... thanks *S*

Awenydd : Sounds like the devil in disguise to me. Or perhaps the first messages were angelic, and he invented the rest.

Skycatcher : I don't know if it applies here, but I've seen "wise folk" who, once they're expected to "perform" on schedule, lose their Connection, and take over the communication. I use quotes here because my terms may not be what someone else would use in the same statement.

Awenydd : Skycatcher: That is along the lines of what I was thinking as well.

Skycatcher : It's as though, faced with an expectant crowd, and no "inspiration" they've got to fill the expectations with something. Since they've been in communication so often before, it's easy to feel like it's real, make it seem real, but the prophet has lost his/her Center and Connection. I personally don't believe in devils.

LEGS : Considering carefully ... perhaps the original messages were to convince Mohammed ... and the later messages were required to convince others of Mohammed's leadership???

shanti : I don't know much about Mohammed - so have to sit this question out.

selki : I don't know about that question, maybe the message of the use of force was from an angel that was not a heavenly angel.

FRAML : #2. He was being given information by two different entities, but he did not discern that they were different.

bindy : Maybe Mohammed would have rejected the forceful messages at first ... peaceful messages and calm brings a sense of trust and calmness ... (I don't know anything about Mohammed.)

Awenydd : I know nothing of Mohammed, either; however, I don't believe in a God who suggests, commands or condones the use of force against others. Therefore, in the simplicity of the question, I stand by my answer.

FRAML : Awenydd: Do you believe that there are discarnates that might deliver such a message? Perhaps serving themselves or a dark presence?

Awenydd : FRAML: Yes, I can see discarnate beings sending those messages ... perhaps posing as one from the light.

FaireMaiden : A number of things ... The "filtering" of the messenger ... as in the psychological underpinnings of being able to be a "clear" channel ... Many messages are misunderstood because of such "shadowed" filtering ... Then, there are what is termed the forces of the Rays ... The Green Ray, it is said, is the force, or vibration, of finding Harmony through Conflict ... Perhaps at such a time that Mohammed was channeling this information that particular Ray was a predominant filter for him ... As I believe that all events, situations, people, phenomena, etc. here are, in their purpose, to teach us two things (when good stuff happens, we learn humility ... and when bad stuff happens, we learn compassion), then it seems to me that the dualistic nature of war and peace were/are another polarization that require the ability to trinitize, or harmonize, the opposing forces (energies, vibratory frequencies) ...

alremkin : Not having studied Islam nor being very familiar with Islam, I don't wish to comment on Mohammed's motivation or inspiration other than this: I've noticed that some Moslems when praying use very similar body motion to what I sometimes use in my meditations. Also recall that the Israelites were commanded by God to take their land by force of arms with Divine support, so I don't believe that the use of force necessarily precludes Divine connection.

LEGS : Good point, alremkin

Ben : alremkin: Advocating the use of force is one possible indication of where a message is coming from. The god Mars, for example, was famous for sending such messages.

alremkin : Ben: Still there's the account of the taking of Israel by force in Joshua. Since my Bible is open from looking through Joshua, I'll paste a short account of an angelic encounter here. It's very much on topic.

alremkin : The Fall of Jericho: Joshua 5:13 Now when Joshua was near Jericho, he looked up and saw a man standing in front of him with a drawn sword in his hand. Joshua went up to him and asked, "Are you for us or for our enemies?" 14 "Neither," he replied, "but as commander of the army of the LORD I have now come." Then Joshua fell face down to the ground in reverence, and asked him, "What message does my Lord have for his servant?" 15 The commander of the LORD's army replied, "Take off your sandals, for the place where you are standing is holy." And Joshua did so.

[Ben : Comment: Wherever "the LORD" is printed in English versions of the Bible with LORD in capital letters, it is one word of four letters in Hebrew (YHWH) that should be translated "Yahweh" or "Jehovah".]

rhiannon : A human can start out as a conduit for the spirit ... and then enter other areas of energetic fusion; i.e., healing, marriage, etc., etc., only to discover their capacity to gather the power diminishing ... as the power leaves a certain avatar, it undoubtedly travels towards magnetizing another individual to accomplish this task ... this power is autonomous ... descending and departing on a moment's notice, it spirals to its least resistant expression ...

bindy : Wonder what the forceful messages were, and what forceful implies ... maybe different to each of us ... LOL ... I will have to do some reading later ... got me curious now ... *G*

FaireMaiden : The psychological underpinnings have everything to do with the "historical" times ... Each era, so to speak, has its own "current event" landscape ... When one goes into prayer or meditation, it is usually with the desire to get some kind of "answer" to the events happening and what to do about it, what the best way to proceed is ... It is to this, then, that one will "filter", or perceive, a given message ...

Ben : Angels typically deliver their message and leave. If we want to continue to receive messages after they leave, other beings are likely to come to us and pretend to be angels. This pattern is very common. It can be discerned by the (sometimes subtle or gradual) change in the content of the messages. I have found this pattern in reports I have read, and testimony by people I believe, and personal experience.

rhiannon : the muses do that, too ...

FRAML : Anyone: Do angels make a big deal about identifying themselves?

Skycatcher : LOL -- good question, FRAML. I'm not that conversant with angels, but what reading I've done, they've seemed to have a "take it or leave it" attitude, with the implication that if you're smart, you'll "take it". Maybe there's an unknown something in their presence that convinces one?

FaireMaiden : FRAML ... It is my understanding that the "operator" (the one receiving) has the responsibility to question the "messenger" as to their alignment ... If the operator accepts a message without qualification, that operator is opening him/her self up to all manner of discordant energetic messaging ...

Ben : QUESTION 3: Hypothetically or as a matter of experience or in your own opinion, what would indicate to you that a visitor was an angel or a fallen angel? In other words, what do you think the difference or differences might be? YOUR TURN

LEGS : My opinion is that the content of the message would tend to indicate which it was ... and so there we get into perception of what is right or wrong suggestions or commands ...

FRAML : #3: Does the discarnate tell us something that is helpful or hurtful to either ourselves or others?

rhiannon : My own inner light is the best reflection of any light thrown before me ...

FRAML : Does the message of the angel appear to be in alignment with the known actions of the God it claims to serve?

Celia : The angelic messages I've received have been short and very much to the point. Less-than-angelic messengers seem to hang around too long.

FRAML : Celia: Good observation.

Amala : Again ... I'd go by a 'gut feeling' ...

Ben : I've read a lot of metaphysical and theological speculation about fallen angels, but I don't buy most of it. I believe the key difference is attitude toward others. Angels are benevolent and lead us to develop unqualified love of others. Earth-plane beings disregard the effects on others and lead us pursue their earthly desires. Fallen angels are malevolent and lead us to their implacable contempt or hatred of others.

alremkin : #3. The difference is the presence of the Holy Spirit which inhabits the family of God. Another Bible quote coming to support this statement.

alremkin : Matthew 12:32 Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.

alremkin : I take this to mean that if one cannot recognize the Holy Spirit, the spirit of God, they are completely lost without hope of recovery.

LEGS : I think one should be highly suspicious of a message condoning actions that one feels/knows to be ungodly, untimely, hurtful to innocent beings ... but I also think that the receiver of messages is carefully chosen ... those ready to do wrong would be likely candidates for the discarnates.

Skycatcher : Didn't some of the Bible angels have some questionable messages? Was it Isaac who was commanded to sacrifice his son? And what was Mary to think of what the angel told her, that she was pregnant out of wedlock, etc. Most angelic messages seem to greatly test the faith of the receiver as far as the message being "good" or acceptable.

Ben : Skycatcher: Yes. The Bible contains a variety of messages. [It was Abraham who was told to sacrifice his son Isaac.]

FRAML : Re -- Isaac: Yes, a test of faith. For Mary, not a test of faith, but a declaration to her to know that she had been selected to bear God's son, the Messiah. Thus an honor and a great responsibility.

LEGS : True, Skycatcher ... both being tests of Faith ... above and beyond the usual tests we bear ... so it must have been the "glory shining round about" that was convincing.

Skycatcher : If Mary believed the angel. What about that entity, what about her faith, created that belief? After all, the penalties of an unwed pregnancy were severe in that culture. Was it that God had arranged a husband?

FRAML : Skycatcher: She was already engaged to be married to Joseph. And don't forget, an Angel came to him telling him about Mary carrying God's son, so that he would not go through with his plan to break off the engagement.

alremkin : Skycatcher: I agree angelic messages can test our faith, but in the case of Isaac, it was God who ordered the execution and called it off at the last moment providing a ram as the sacrifice. Also, Mary was told that she was impregnated by the Holy Spirit for the birth on the earth plane of the Creator as Jesus which supersedes any laws regarding human sexuality.

LEGS : In neither case was the receipt of the message something that could be dismissed or undone ... perhaps that was the ultimate tool for believing and obedience.

Skycatcher : It doesn't seem like our personal judgment of the "goodness" of the message is necessarily an accurate criteria of angelic presence.

FaireMaiden : Weel ... Firstly, the qualification ... I, personally, do not converse with any entity without qualifying first ... Secondly, I have never encountered an entity from the Office of the Christ that wasna utterly loving ... in the sense that there is never any condemnation, denigration, or discordant messaging, either real or tacitly implied ... Indeed, all messaging I have received is done in a manner that can only be described as laughter ... *lol* ... There is a great feeling of love & joy as well as a sense of the ridiculousness ... I say this because we are all so "serious" here ... And when ye get "out there" it does all look so ridiculous from that vantage point ... Still, all questions are taken seriously, yet answers given with much cheer and joviality ...

Ben : SUMMARY: Angel means messenger. A messenger is someone sent by someone else to deliver a message. Therefore: (1) a real angel is an entity and not a figment of our imagination or part of our own psyche; and (2) if a discarnate messenger or message comes to us, we should always look for evidence to answer these questions: "Whose messenger is this? Where do messages like this come from? Where do they lead?" Discernment of spirits is not always easy, but these questions are where it begins.

Ben : Setting Topic To: More angel stories and discussion of angels

Ben : ALL: Do you have an angel story you would like to share? If so, please say whether it is from something you read, or first-person testimony, or personal experience. And please feel free to ask your own questions or discuss anything related to angels. YOUR TURN

Amala : Ben ... thank you ... you always give me stuff to think about ... *S*

Ben : Amala: You're welcome. *S*

LEGS : I see that I should have waited with Daddy's experiences, Ben, and apologize for not noticing the instruction below the topic

Ben : LEGS: Not a problem, dear heart. It is good to see you here.

LEGS : ((((((Ben))))))) thank you for this seminar

Ben : LEGS: Welcome! In more ways than one.

FRAML : Ben: Thank you for the seminar.

Ben : FRAML: You're welcome. *S* Thank you for being here.

greyman : Yes, thank you Ben!

Ben : greyman: Welcome, indeed.

FaireMaiden : Weel, for me, even discordant energies are wanting to find their way home ... They fell, aye? ... My question is, so what? ... Who of us is so perfected? ... When I come across such entities I ask them if they wish to go home now? ... If they answer in the affirmative, I call in others to assist in such, and off they go ... If the answer is negative, which is their free-will right to do, I tell them in no uncertain terms that they must leave my presence ...

Skycatcher : Wouldn't an evil entity say anything, including lies, to convince? And anyone in movie/tv special effects today can create a "glory shining round about". I'm sure negative entities can as well.

FaireMaiden : Skycatcher ... Nay ... they canna lie ... If you ask an entity directly, they must speak the truth as to their alignment ... 'Tis only in this dimension that one's "secrets" and "agendas" can be hidden ... and then only to those who have neither eyes to see, nor ears to hear ... Which is also one of the lessons here ... Discernment ...

LEGS : Ben has some great discernment techniques and lessons on his site.

FaireMaiden : Ben ... Thank ye so much for this forum *vbs* ... I have enjoyed it immensely ... (((vvvbighugs)))

Ben : FaireMaiden: I'm glad you enjoy this forum. I didn't type quickly enough to say so, but I appreciate the insights you provided tonight, especially on helping fallen ones go Home. .

FaireMaiden : Ben ... Thank ye, Sire ... Contrary to popular, or what can be construed as being "spiritually politic" *lol*, I encourage people to release Lucifer from his role as Chief Usurper! *lol* ... He has played his part well for us ... the dichotomy of GOOD & EVIL are no longer required for our growth here ... Time for everyone to climb aboard the gravy train and make Heaven on Earth, Peace on Earth, the manifest reality ... This canna be done whilst holding another to blame ...

Yopo : Hi Ben, ALL. Wish I'd gotten here on time, but just arrived home. Hopefully I'll catch Part 3. *S*

shanti : One real experience: laying in bed. Awakened by the sound of bells. Woke up. Giant brilliant light that was so white it was blue standing at foot of bed. End.

LEGS : Was there a message, shanti??

shanti : LEGS: "peace" of heart from the true direct knowledge that there is a bigger picture going on than we could ever begin to imagine. "Hope" that bigger picture plays out no matter the tragedy of our lives. :)

LEGS : That is good, then, shanti

Nevren : I have a question. Why is it that people use sage (I think) to get rid of entities out of places. What purpose does this serve?

LEGS : {{{{{{{Nevren}}}}}}} good question

genniii : Greetings everyone ... late, but I shall view the record ... but would want to say that I myself have awakened from sleep to find bright white wings enwrapping me that faded as I waited ... we are loved and cared for by brothers and sisters in life. Another view is that the angels, the sage, etc., are angles of yourself ... we are one and that which meets you is not in actuality in separation.

FaireMaiden : Nevren ... the chemical properties in sage (I dinna know what they are by their names) are conducive to cleansing the auric and etheric fields ... Discordant energies leave the premises and discordant energetic residue is dissolved ...

shanti : Nevren: Some scents are of a higher vibratory frequency than lower discarnate forms -- the same reason you would never have water just sitting around for ages (like in flower vases) or rubbish around -- it attracts these lower forms.

Nevren : hmm, in my experience, you don't need anything but your own energies.

Skycatcher : I was taught (Sioux tradition) that sage is an offering to the Spirits, as well as a cleanser. But I was also taught that your intention is the most powerful tool of all, regardless of crystals, candles, incense or sage.

genniii : intention and attitude is everything -- I do believe.

Skycatcher : Since this space is about angels, and we're off into sage etc., I'm going over to Trailhead so Ben doesn't have to clean up anything that isn't angels.

Celia : Thank you Ben.

Ben : Celia: You're welcome, as always. *S*

alremkin : Angel story: It was the third day of the Star Knowledge conference in Sedona, November, 1998. Jean Holmes was serving with grandmother chandra by singing the names of ascended masters and arch angles as chandra pointed to them on a list. Jean would sing the name after chandra pointed to it they went through the masters and began singing the names of the arch angels. I was feeling an incredibly strong energy building as they were doing this, thinking it was wonderfully beautiful, and it built even stronger as they went through the list of arch angels, and my spirit rose. Then, on singing the name of the fourth archangel, I felt something like a warm liquid pass through the top 2" of my head and I went into a divine love state while they completed the singing which took about 1 1/2 minutes more. I was touched by an angel.

LEGS : A wonderful experience, alremkin ... alas, I was almost there myself ... just missed it.

FaireMaiden : alremkin ... What a great story ... Oh, how I love those doings when they come ... A blessing beyond compare (((vvvbighugs))) ...

shanti : alremkin -- sounds like the descent of the divine to me. :) :)

The_Magus : shanti: You saw that, too? Did it seem like it was coming from outside?

shanti : The Magus: The light appearance? I would say it was both -- inner and outer -- like the experience you have when you look at a beautiful flower. That beauty wells up within you too and the scent penetrates -- and there is no more you and it -- just beauty remains -- and yet -- still -- there you are standing there with the flower in your hand.

The_Magus : shanti: Definitely that. But it happens on rare occasions. Usually I get something like this before either a great or beneficial event.

LEGS : I also think that we are sometimes used with our own capabilities enhanced to offer what might seem like an angelic deed ... I once felt pulled to drive down a different street as I was returning from picking up my child from school ... glanced to the right just as a child on a rope swing tried to do a flip around the rope ... it coiled up around his head, slipping to his neck, and he was hanging there even as I braked, jerked the car door open and dashed across the lawn ... I snuggled his slight body beneath my right arm and lifted him, at the same time unwrapping the rope ... just as I was setting him upon his feet, a large woman came rushing out of the house brandishing a broom and screaming at me to leave her boy alone! Not very brave, I quickly fled the scene. But I know he would have died shortly otherwise.

LEGS : And I certainly never drove that way again ... *G*

shanti : Wow, LEGS! Incredible story!

FaireMaiden : LEGS ... That be a great story too! ... And aye, I also believe we act the messenger as well ... We all have wings ... Some a wee moth-bitten, and some utterly invisible to one's own or other's consciousness, but we all got 'em just the same! *lol*

Ben : LEGS: Thank you for that story. What you did was the work of an angel on earth.

LEGS : *smiling* but Ben, I have felt cowardly about it ever since ... that I didn't stand my ground and tell the woman what had happened ... but she was approaching like a tornado ... *G*

Ben : LEGS: Nah, not cowardly. You had already done all that was needed. You weren't sent to argue with her.

LEGS : *S* Thank you, Ben

Nevren : LEGS: Not all see miracles for what they are ...

The_Magus : LEGS: If she only knew what was going on ...

Nevren : I don't know if this quite qualifies as a an angel experience, but it is along those lines. I was driving to be with my family on Christmas Eve about 4 years ago. It was late at night and I was taking a route that I had taken several times before. I was coming up on my turnoff and saw the sign for my exit. As soon as I turned, I knew that I was going the wrong way, knowing that I had seen the sign right. Well, I started cursing up a storm and had to go about 10 miles before I could turn around. It probably cost me half an hour, and I was cursing the whole way. As I got going the right way, I came upon an accident that involved 10 or 12 cars, that stretched across all 4 lanes of traffic. The police were just arriving, so I knew it had just happened. At that instant I got a warm feeling wash through me, and knew that I had been redirected to avoid the accident.

The_Magus : Nevren: Eerie and interesting.

Ben : Nevren: Yes, I think that qualifies as an angel story. And your guardian angel got another cluster on his/her good-conduct ribbon.

FaireMaiden : Nevren ... Oh! ... I bet GOD got a big kick out o' you cursing him all the way! I can just see it now ... (GOD stroking his beard, pacing back and forth, saying, "why that ... ungrateful cur!") and then after you were sooooo grateful ... (GOD saying, "yeah, yeah, see!?!) ... *rofl*

The_Magus : FaireMaiden: or God might have said, "That's what he thinks!" lol

Nevren : FaireMaiden: Yeah, God has put up with a lot of me cursing him out ... lol a forgiving ole soul ... *S*

FaireMaiden : Nevren ... Aye ... That HE be ... (((hugs)))

kezia : hi all! Thank you, Ben. (I am reading back as well -- very interesting!) In full pondering mode, now -- reaching for topical bible under "Angels", recalling so many correlative verses to comments here, noting one "For he shall give his angels charge over thee, to keep thee in all thy ways" (Psalm 91:11) "They shall bear thee up in their hands, lest thou dash thy foot against a stone"(Matt 4:6; Luke 4:10-11) & in the margin, I wrote with my own pen, "the angels are with you." ;0

shanti : Ben, at the risk of being repetitive after everyone thanking you already -- thank you again from me for holding this talk -- I think it's really important that people have opportunities to turn their minds and hearts to the positive and beneficial -- and you have certainly been a vessel to help us do that today. :)

Ben : shanti: Welcome. I don't tell people what to think, but I do try to encourage thinking and sharing, and especially the positive and beneficial. Namaste.

Nevren : I second that, Ben. It is nice to be able to talk about something positive for a change. *S*

LEGS : On our first trip to Canada, we had a similar experience, Nevren, fussing at each other for confusing the road, while Mom pointed out all the beautiful things we would have missed ... only to have to sit waiting for all the ambulances and police cars to clear the road, when we once again approached where we would have been otherwise.

kezia : I have many "close calls with death" stories -- are these angels saving us? or God, or both? One of mine = driving in rush hour traffic, to work, raining, changed from slow lane to middle lane, only going about 50 mph or so, car began to hydroplane suddenly out of control & spun around very fast. As it spun faster, it began to slow, facing oncoming traffic, going very fast, passenger side heading for the concrete barrier by the fast lane. I went, OH MY GOD, I ducked down, knowing it was all over. Car stopped one hair's breadth from the wall, no one hit me, everything went into "slow motion" all 4 lanes of traffic were way off in the distance, as if slowed down & almost out of sight/hazy. I quickly sat up, turned the car around & got into the far right lane & not one car hit me. It was INCREDIBLE -- the adrenaline was so high, it took nearly 2 hrs for all the shaking to stop. (Later, I found out that the tires on the back were a different size than the front & this is what caused car to hydroplane in the water.)

Nevren : kezia, wow!

LEGS : That does make you realize, doesn't it, kezia? I'm thankful you were saved on that occasion.

kezia : LEGS, thank you for saying that -- very kind.

TheOne : Angels are higher dimensional beings that guide us (amongst other things). I have talked with a few before now. :)

Alastamorphin : Ben: Hello. Very, very interesting seminar. I love reading these type experiences. VBS

Nevren : I almost forgot about when I almost drowned in Guam a few months ago. I got caught in a rip-tide and couldn't break out of it and decided it would be better to call for help and look stupid and live, than to drown ... lol I was with one other guy and we were snorkeling. I only got out a couple of shouts before I ran out of breath. Somehow he had his head above water, or something told him to look, and he got to me ... scary experience ... no more snorkeling in rough waters for me! lol especially without flippers.

kezia : Nevren: Wow! & I have had similar to your story, too, where timing changed & later found out, had it not, we would not be here now -- as you said in your story in the car. I was off to the store in the daytime, decided to go to the market instead of coming home as planned, pulled up to the front door (though, lucky, got good parking space), got out, & store employees come running out, saying your car is on fire! I look down & fire is flying up from under the engine! employee runs & gets fire extinguisher & puts it out! fire dept comes -- the whole 9 yards -- SCARY; well, come to find out, my old car (at that time), just as I turned in to park, the power steering fluid line broke, dripping the very flammable fluid onto the hot exhaust pipe & boom, instant fire! Had I been on the highway, my whole car could have exploded! yet, here I was, right in front of the market, where I know them, they are my friends! They save, not only my car -- engine Ok, -- but me, being there, instead of alone somewhere else.

Nevren : kezia: Someone is definitely looking out for you ... Whew ...

kezia : Nevren: Yes! My mom, who passed over in Jan '87. It is her car I was in. I wonder how much that has to do with it.

FaireMaiden : I had an experience in a grove ... Was there cryin' my eyes out (for reasons I willna go into here) ... suffice it to say, I was down in dark grove ... sunlight filtering through the thicket ... There came upon me Sananda, Ariel, and another (of whose name I am nae at liberty to speak) ... These three were of such comfort to me ... but even moreso, of such a teaching ... Their love and compassion, their ability to help me understand the deep sorrow of my broken world, was, weel, unsurpassed as far as experiencing phenomena goes ... Weel, except for the other times when they came upon me ... *lol*

Nevren : FaireMaiden: Sounds like a great experience. **S**

Ben : A small angel story. Once, when I was praying and pondering great mysteries of the spiritual universe, a very small angel appeared in my inner vision. A little-girl angel. She stood there looking very serious. I said, "Hello! Do you have a message for me?" She said, "Yes. Your dog is thirsty." And she nodded her head and vanished. I went and looked. She was right. My dog had been shut in the garage all evening, and his water bowl was empty.

LEGS : That is a wonderful angel story, Ben. Thank you ... now we know what it means in the Bible when it says God knows every sparrow that falls.

Celia : Oh, Ben! That happens to me all the time, except it's usually my conscience. :)

Nevren : Ben: Good thing your dog's got an angel too! *S*

kezia : Ben: Great "little angel story" & all who have typed, I read. You know, we are here for a reason, look how many are taken so young, or so suddenly, especially lately! Yet we are all still here. Something big is coming, too. ;0

shanti : I think all these stories are so great -- it really goes to show that there is a bigger picture going on -- and all we need is to have faith and trust in that. I guess it is easier when we are being saved or given things to believe in that bigger picture, but it's also really good to get to a point where we just believe in the bigger picture and can take the good with the bad as nothing more than a perfect design that is out of our hands and all we can do is dance along with it -- and that doesn't mean we don't put any effort into life, because everyone knows, to be a good dancer you have to be really fit. :) Angels -- let us believe in that picture -- give us hope -- give us faith -- so when the rocky times come we can endure. :)

LEGS : That is beautifully stated, shanti ... thank you

FaireMaiden : (((shanti))) ... Aye ... There are things beyond our literal comprehension, but somehow know intuitively, that ALL is just right with the world and movin' along according to plan ... *vbs*

Alastamorphin : I remember a time I worked in a hotel, me and some friends were swimming, more-so me, and her kiddos with her and her husband watching. The youngest was on my shoulders hanging round my neck . We were in the deep end. She keep pulling on me. I kept going under. I felt like the edge of the pool was miles away. I just kept saying to myself, "I don't care what happens to me, just please don't let anything happen to her." I could tell her parents were watching, ready to jump in if any trouble were to happen. Something gave me some strength to get both me and that little 11 year old to safety. I knew someone was on our side that day. Scared the heck outta me. It was like one of those *duh* moments. What caused me to do that, I haven't the foggiest, maybe it was to show bravery in the face of danger.

King_David : Is this the "Angels" seminar?

Yopo : Hi, King_David *S*

Nevren : Hey there KD *S*

Alastamorphin : These are really good stories, heart warming.

ElHaqq808 : ((((((((((((((allpathians))))))))))))))))))))))

PreciousOne : Hello! I love angel stories. :)

Nevren : hey there Hakki ... PreciousOne *S*

FaireMaiden : Oh! so many have come ... Greetings to ye all! (((hugs)))

PreciousOne : May I tell you another story I have on Angels?? If it would be Ok?

shanti : Please do, PreciousOne. :)

King_David : If I might make a suggestion ... if you like angels perhaps a study of the angels found in the Bible might be interesting. There are all kinds of mentions when you put them together. *S*

LEGS : KD: About 120 mentions, if I remember right ... as I once counted and read each one... (((hugs))))

King_David : LEGS: That sounds about right. *S*

Nevren : KD: What need is there to study? They are ... that is all that really matters. *S*

King_David : Nevren: I believe there is a lot to study. What are they like, what is their purpose, etc. There is quite a bit about them.

Nevren : KD: Well I don't think any book can tell us what they are like, only what they accomplish. I think it is pretty clear what their purpose is ... to help us along the way ... simple as that. *S*

King_David : Nevren: Well, I respectfully disagree.

kezia : KD: I quoted some verses about angels here, & have topical bible open to "Angels" I love reading those verses, but also love to hear first-person testimonies, as we are doing here. Do you have one to share?

King_David : Kezia: Not a first person "seen one in the flesh story" ... but many of my close friends have seen and talked with angels according to them.


ElHaqq808 : FROTHY: Do you mean that angel is a manifestation of our Higher Selves?


ElHaqq808 : FROTHY: Oh well. I do not disagree with you at all. I agree with you regarding various manifestation of Higher Selves/Guardian Angels

TheOne : FROTHY: I understand what you are saying. I have seen in various texts saying guardian angels are usually the higher self of the person who isn't a clear channel for their higher form, so it manifests itself in these ways sometimes, but it varies though. :)

ElHaqq808 : Ben: I had a discussion with my Kabbalah teacher. We agree the next stage of Human Evolution is that we humans will evolve into the Angelic being eventually. Well, I do not know how long it will take though.

Celia : ElHaqq808: Speaking for myself only, I think it will take a very long time. :(

ElHaqq808 : Celia: Well, if we (humanity) will survive in that long time, I guess.

Ben : ElHaqq808: I think that next step in evolution is already being taken by some human beings, but not all human beings.

ElHaqq808 : Ben: Well, I agree with you ... some other aliens have already attained the highest spiritual level. They look like Angelic light beings in the Universe. They are called *Star People* I have seen them before. They are light beings who really look like Angels.

PreciousOne : Speaking of Star People, I am not sure if that's what I am, but a lot call me a star child because my aura is very pure when they see it, and I am a very young soul and have a lot of innocence around my soul like a child would. I know I have not been on earth very long at all -- meaning past lives, etc.

King_David : I will withhold my comments on the human evolution aspect. *S*


King_David : Frothy: Give it up. lol My comments the other day were exactly what they should have been if using ones model against itself. You know that. *S*

shanti : I don't think theories count for much. Direct experience is what counts -- or the faith in someone else's direct experience and knowledge. (I'm thinking if I agree with that statement wholeheartedly or not, or whether there are other aspects.) There has to be something substantial that we can stand on -- something solid.

PreciousOne : When I was 16 I was very close to suicide and did not want to be here anymore. All I ever did was do things wrong. I did not understand this world I lived in and why I was even born in the first place. I was so close to taking an overdose of pills and getting it over with and ending it all. All of a sudden I saw this light form in my room and an Angel appeared by my bed and told me, "Do not do this. You have so much ahead of you and someone who loves you dearly." There was a woman behind her. The woman walked over to me and stroked my face and said, "Do not do this, my child. I love you so much. Do not take your life. I will help you and always be here with you to help you feel safe." I cried for a while and she pretty much stayed with me that whole night. I finally felt like living for a change.

PreciousOne : Little did I realize this woman with the Angel was my Spirit Mother who was thinking about me at that time. I may have said this story before, but it means so much to me because I would not be here if it was not for the Angel and my Mother.

FaireMaiden : (holds our beloved PreciousOne close and strokes her hair) ... Oh, little lassie, thou art blessed, and thou art holy ... Know, too, that thou art loved ... *soft smile*

PreciousOne : HUGS thanks hon. :) Finally finding meaning in my life and this world, I think. lol.

Nevren : ((PreciousOne))You are truly loved, remember that always. *S*

PreciousOne : (((((((Nevren))))))))))) HUGS to you, dear heart :)

Ben : PreciousOne: Thank you for your story. And my appreciation to the angel and your spirit-mother.

PreciousOne : (((((Ben)))))))) You're welcome, hon, and thank you for having the seminar. HUGS

shanti : that was a lovely story, PreciousOne :)

Nevren : Anyone ever watch the TV show "It's a miracle"? Wonderful show. Had one the other day about a guy and his wife that built a bomb and held a kindergarten class hostage. In the end the bomb exploded and the only one killed was the wife, and then her husband shot himself. The explosion went straight up, where it should have gone 360 degrees. It baffled the investigators. When interviewed, all the children said they had seen angels all around them. A couple of kids saw dead grandmothers that they had never met ...

shanti : Nevren: Wow! Where did that happen?

Nevren : shanti: It was in Oregon, I think.

OwlGhost : Dealing with death for most of my life, I've watched those who have passed, waiting, standing by their bodies, in what I would describe as a daze. I've seen entities come to meet them, some greeted with elation, some with terror, some with confusion, some with refusal. While some moved off with these entities, I've witnessed some refuse. I've seen one man move to his wife and kiss her softly on the head. The entity who was with him put it's hand on her head, and she smiled softly, the tears disappearing from her face. Were these angels?? I can't answer that ...

shanti : OwlGhost: *S*

Ben : OwlGhost: To watch what happens at death is an ability that not many people would want to have -- and yet, it can provide powerful insights concerning the life of individual souls hereafter.



TheOne : I too see death much like waking. :)


PreciousOne : Lets all try and get along tonight. Ben is very nice to do this seminar. Why do we have to argue over things? Now we are arguing over Angels??? I mean, come on, let's all get along for a change.

FaireMaiden : PreciousOne ... I agree ... This forum is to speak about angels, nae the Bardo ... *sighs*

[Ben: FaireMaiden: Thank you for mentioning the Bardo. // For those who don't use this word: "bardo" means "between." In some Eastern writings, such as the Tibetan Book of the Dead, the Bardo is the realm of discarnate existence *between* death and rebirth, and -- from the way they describe it -- the gray twilight zone *between* Light and darkness.]

King_David : PreciousOne: I am not saying this to argue with you ... just stating it to see if I am correct ... if I read the clock right, the seminar is actually over, isn't it? 1 hour moderated and 1 hour discussion.

PreciousOne : I am not mentioning any names ((((((King_David))))))) Just seems a lot like to argue abut everything. That's all I'm saying. I know how I feel and believe no one can change my heart and how I feel. We all have our own experiences and beliefs.

Ben : ALL: Yes, my seminar on angels and the 1-hour discussion period are over. I'm going to change the topic, and suggest that you continue discussion in Trailhead.

Ben : Setting Topic To: Prayers and condolences to LEGS

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